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Goodbye Jesus

The Love Of Jesus


Antlerman

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To put Jesus at the level of a symbol is making Him no better than a statue of a false god or some other thing that is worshipped for all the wrong reasons. If Dr. Jung's definition is correct, then in the view of Christianity, The Bible is the symbol of Jesus.

Speaking of symbols and Jesus and the Bible... here's all three at once! A picture speaks louder than a thousand words.

 

post-246-12601098558_thumb.jpg

 

Now tell me that when a Christian prays, that he does not have some mental images like this, that they are not imagining God in some form like this, a form they can approach. If so, then this makes my point.

 

 

So what's your point? This doesn't change the perspective regardless. Jesus was not conceived as a natural man, nor did He leave this earth like one. (Just coincedence I am sure). It says that no Spiritual births will come except through Him......so either He is what you experienced by my belief, or God the Manifestor by sovereignty gave it to you directly. This STILL does not change my belief. And while you say that this is contrary to the Spirit....how is that you can claim this and not be contrary to your own statement? In other words....I have spent a couple of years now hear listening to ex-Christians beat up Christians in their "recovery" which is certainly real, but how can you claim that the Manifestor has given you special knowledge when you can't afford grace for those who believe in Christianity?

 

Really K, it's frustrating.

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Ok, I will step out on a limb for you guys. For me, it was an conscious experience that gave me an understanding of what my behaviors should be, that is, behaviors in alignment with Him, and also, what was the reasoning behind why I was not behaving this way, and also how it was out of line/hurting Him and His creation. This in an experience that included visualizing, not by my will to my knowledge, an image I believe to be Jesus.

 

Hi End3,

Let me know if I am understanding you correctly (this thread is long and I haven't had time to read everything... I might have missed something which leads me to misunderstand something here).

It seems that you are pinning your knowledge of "the Love of Jesus" on a religious experience in which you "saw" (in your mind's eye? or perhaps with your eyes?) Jesus... an image at least that you believed to be Jesus... and in which he instructed you in something that was good for you to know.

 

If that's what you're saying, that's well and good and I understand what power such a personal experience can have. The point I want to make and have tried to make before is that people in other religions have experiences like this, too, which teach them similar things.

 

Now, two things:

 

1) It's your choice to believe what I say.

2) I personally don't believe a non-believer will have this experience unless by God's sovereign act. I do hold that to be a certain possibility.

 

Hope that helps. It is as honest as I can describe my experience.

 

So in short, it is a knowledge and knowing more than a concrete behavior. The knowing now resides in me but the physical act(s) is up to me to carry out.

 

I believe that you had this experience, just as when I hear of experiences like this from others, I believe they had them as well. Would you also give members of other faiths the same benefit of the doubt when they describe their experiences to you?

 

How one interprets any of those experiences is always a difficult question. I think it's unfair to only affirm those experiences originating within one's own religion and dismiss any outside of it, though.

 

I have seen myself that this kind of Divine "instruction" (if you will) is not limited to the Christian experience. There is simply no monopoly on the Divine in any one religion, as far as I have seen.

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When is the last time you made an offering to Zeus?

 

Just a few weeks ago, actually. :HaHa:

 

(Why does it seem Zeus is always used in these examples?) :scratch:

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When is the last time you made an offering to Zeus?

 

Just a few weeks ago, actually. :HaHa:

 

(Why does it seem Zeus is always used in these examples?) :scratch:

The mythological reference is familiar to most. If I had said Marduk or Aten, most people would just say, "Huh?"

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The mythological reference is familiar to most. If I had said Marduk or Aten, most people would just say, "Huh?"

 

True enough. It's just amusing to me that He's become the default example. And He's in the pantheon I honor. :god:

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Ok, I will step out on a limb for you guys. For me, it was an conscious experience that gave me an understanding of what my behaviors should be, that is, behaviors in alignment with Him, and also, what was the reasoning behind why I was not behaving this way, and also how it was out of line/hurting Him and His creation. This in an experience that included visualizing, not by my will to my knowledge, an image I believe to be Jesus.

 

Hi End3,

Let me know if I am understanding you correctly (this thread is long and I haven't had time to read everything... I might have missed something which leads me to misunderstand something here).

It seems that you are pinning your knowledge of "the Love of Jesus" on a religious experience in which you "saw" (in your mind's eye? or perhaps with your eyes?) Jesus... an image at least that you believed to be Jesus... and in which he instructed you in something that was good for you to know.

 

If that's what you're saying, that's well and good and I understand what power such a personal experience can have. The point I want to make and have tried to make before is that people in other religions have experiences like this, too, which teach them similar things.

 

I don't have too much of a problem with people believing what they want. I feel as though I am entitled to my own belief and pursuit of happiness. With that, I don't want someone to dictate my spiritual understanding as being right or wrong. What is being said here is like me saying Buddha was a fat Mexican that really prefessed machismo...and then told the Buddhists were wrong in their fundamental understanding of their belief. Grace, as your post exhibits, seems the best option for me.

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If that's what you're saying, that's well and good and I understand what power such a personal experience can have. The point I want to make and have tried to make before is that people in other religions have experiences like this, too, which teach them similar things.

 

I don't have too much of a problem with people believing what they want. I feel as though I am entitled to my own belief and pursuit of happiness. With that, I don't want someone to dictate my spiritual understanding as being right or wrong. What is being said here is like me saying Buddha was a fat Mexican that really prefessed machismo...and then told the Buddhists were wrong in their fundamental understanding of their belief. Grace, as your post exhibits, seems the best option for me.

 

I agree you're entitled to your own beliefs and pursuit of happiness.

I'm still wondering what your view is of religious experiences similar to yours, but originating within other religious contexts...?

Would you in this case be saying that Buddha was a fat Mexican, etc? Or would you grant them validity similar to the one you had? Or something else? I'm really curious.

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If that's what you're saying, that's well and good and I understand what power such a personal experience can have. The point I want to make and have tried to make before is that people in other religions have experiences like this, too, which teach them similar things.

 

I don't have too much of a problem with people believing what they want. I feel as though I am entitled to my own belief and pursuit of happiness. With that, I don't want someone to dictate my spiritual understanding as being right or wrong. What is being said here is like me saying Buddha was a fat Mexican that really prefessed machismo...and then told the Buddhists were wrong in their fundamental understanding of their belief. Grace, as your post exhibits, seems the best option for me.

 

I agree you're entitled to your own beliefs and pursuit of happiness.

I'm still wondering what your view is of religious experiences similar to yours, but originating within other religious contexts...?

Would you in this case be saying that Buddha was a fat Mexican, etc? Or would you grant them validity similar to the one you had? Or something else? I'm really curious.

 

I am certain people have had experiences similar, yet different than mine. Sure, I would think they are as valid as anyone's. But the point is, IMO, it is my choice to perceive and understand their reality, the meaning behind it. And that seems to be the crux of this discussion.

 

Maybe if you gave me an example I could be more specific...

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To put Jesus at the level of a symbol is making Him no better than a statue of a false god or some other thing that is worshipped for all the wrong reasons. If Dr. Jung's definition is correct, then in the view of Christianity, The Bible is the symbol of Jesus.

Speaking of symbols and Jesus and the Bible... here's all three at once! A picture speaks louder than a thousand words.

 

jc17.jpg

 

Now tell me that when a Christian prays, that he does not have some mental images like this, that they are not imagining God in some form like this, a form they can approach. If so, then this makes my point.

 

 

So what's your point? This doesn't change the perspective regardless. Jesus was not conceived as a natural man, nor did He leave this earth like one. (Just coincedence I am sure). It says that no Spiritual births will come except through Him......so either He is what you experienced by my belief, or God the Manifestor by sovereignty gave it to you directly. This STILL does not change my belief. And while you say that this is contrary to the Spirit....how is that you can claim this and not be contrary to your own statement? In other words....I have spent a couple of years now hear listening to ex-Christians beat up Christians in their "recovery" which is certainly real, but how can you claim that the Manifestor has given you special knowledge when you can't afford grace for those who believe in Christianity?

 

Really K, it's frustrating.

What the hell are you talking about End? You make these wild assumptions about me based on your lack of understanding what I mean. What did I actually say about 'contrary to Spirit'? I believe the words I used were "violence to Spirit". Let's reference those from this thread together:

 

Which then leads to my point in this whole thread. How can you take one reading of it, the one you learned and see for yourself in so-called "plain words",
to dismiss the experiential reality of LOVE in others because it somehow doesn't fit your theological interpretation? Who are you then hearing? Spirit or theologians? And if theologians, could you possibly be doing
violence
to Spirit in rejecting its reality in the lives of others not of your religion?

 

<snip>

 

I would caution judging what "God" does or does not do. As I said, you may be doing violence to Spirit in that
, and end up missing the full Realization of it yourself.

 

It's not that I disagree with certain aspects of how the Christian speaks about it
,
but what I do disagree with is that how they talk about it defines it as the only way to talk about, approach it, or apprehend it
. That is utter, pure, carnal arrogance.
It does violence to Spirit
, and I should suspect you well know that.

These are the only times I've referenced acting 'contrary to Spirit' in this thread.

 

I've said this before, and you seem to forget or assume otherwise in your own mind based on something from your own imagination without a basis in the reality of anything I've said, that I accept your experience as valid. But the difference between those who say we can't know that Love because we are not Christians and me, or us, is that I can accept yours. I am not blocked by a love for a Doctrine. I hear the Heart of Spirit. I extend it to you, and the only thing I hope for is that you and anyone else who loves Higher Truth can realize that Love enough in themselves to extend it to where it belong - in everyone! Not doing that, is what I mean by violence to Spirit. Nothing you seem to imagine I mean.

 

The only reason I focus on symbols is in the hope to get those who are stuck on the symbol so much that they can't hear with the heart, to realize the nature of how we perceive with the mind, and that it is not the final authority. It's the Heart that is. Mind and Heart in harmony. That my friend is Life in the Spirit. Not this exclusionary crap. I don't dismiss you End. Not at all. Quite the contrary, I embrace you.

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To put Jesus at the level of a symbol is making Him no better than a statue of a false god or some other thing that is worshipped for all the wrong reasons. If Dr. Jung's definition is correct, then in the view of Christianity, The Bible is the symbol of Jesus.

Speaking of symbols and Jesus and the Bible... here's all three at once! A picture speaks louder than a thousand words.

 

post-246-12601098558_thumb.jpg

 

Now tell me that when a Christian prays, that he does not have some mental images like this, that they are not imagining God in some form like this, a form they can approach. If so, then this makes my point.

 

 

So what's your point? This doesn't change the perspective regardless. Jesus was not conceived as a natural man, nor did He leave this earth like one. (Just coincedence I am sure). It says that no Spiritual births will come except through Him......so either He is what you experienced by my belief, or God the Manifestor by sovereignty gave it to you directly. This STILL does not change my belief. And while you say that this is contrary to the Spirit....how is that you can claim this and not be contrary to your own statement? In other words....I have spent a couple of years now hear listening to ex-Christians beat up Christians in their "recovery" which is certainly real, but how can you claim that the Manifestor has given you special knowledge when you can't afford grace for those who believe in Christianity?

 

Really K, it's frustrating.

What the hell are you talking about End? You make these wild assumptions about me based on your lack of understanding what I mean. What did I actually say about 'contrary to Spirit'? I believe the words I used were "violence to Spirit". Let's reference those from this thread together:

 

Which then leads to my point in this whole thread. How can you take one reading of it, the one you learned and see for yourself in so-called "plain words",
to dismiss the experiential reality of LOVE in others because it somehow doesn't fit your theological interpretation? Who are you then hearing? Spirit or theologians? And if theologians, could you possibly be doing
violence
to Spirit in rejecting its reality in the lives of others not of your religion?

 

<snip>

 

I would caution judging what "God" does or does not do. As I said, you may be doing violence to Spirit in that
, and end up missing the full Realization of it yourself.

 

It's not that I disagree with certain aspects of how the Christian speaks about it
,
but what I do disagree with is that how they talk about it defines it as the only way to talk about, approach it, or apprehend it
. That is utter, pure, carnal arrogance.
It does violence to Spirit
, and I should suspect you well know that.

These are the only times I've referenced acting 'contrary to Spirit' in this thread.

 

I've said this before, and you seem to forget or assume otherwise in your own mind based on something from your own imagination without a basis in the reality of anything I've said, that I accept your experience as valid. But the difference between those who say we can't know that Love because we are not Christians and me, or us, is that I can accept yours. I am not blocked by a love for a Doctrine. I hear the Heart of Spirit. I extend it to you, and the only thing I hope for is that you and anyone else who loves Higher Truth can realize that Love enough in themselves to extend it to where it belong - in everyone! Not doing that, is what I mean by violence to Spirit. Nothing you seem to imagine I mean.

 

The only reason I focus on symbols is in the hope to get those who are stuck on the symbol so much that they can't hear with the heart, to realize the nature of how we perceive with the mind, and that it is not the final authority. It's the Heart that is. Mind and Heart in harmony. That my friend is Life in the Spirit. Not this exclusionary crap. I don't dismiss you End. Not at all. Quite the contrary, I embrace you.

 

How do you wish me to react? When you use words like violence to the Spirit? And talk about misjudging what God represents.

 

Let me put it in simple words. I believe Jesus is God. I believe no other. Why can't you have grace for my belief?

I do believe God has the ability to present Himself in any sovereign manner he pleases. At this point, I do not believe that this is in any other form(s). Why do y'all persist in forcing me and Larry to accept that there is some higher Spirit or that Jesus is just another symbol. I don't believe it. I don't dislike y'all. I enjoy our conversations, but I don't believe what you are describing. Is this OK?

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I am certain people have had experiences similar, yet different than mine.

 

That reminds me of something someone pointed out to me a long time ago about religion.

 

The Virgin Mary never appears to Muslims, Hindus or other religions, but only people that carry the belief that she can appear to them.

 

So your experiences are certainly different, but similar, but how can you say that yours are not culturally influenced?

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I am certain people have had experiences similar, yet different than mine. Sure, I would think they are as valid as anyone's. But the point is, IMO, it is my choice to perceive and understand their reality, the meaning behind it. And that seems to be the crux of this discussion.

The crux of this conversation is accepting and even celbrating with someone outside our way of framing it, talking about it, symbolizing for ourselves, with as equal respect as we want for ourselves. Because we ALL know what it is. It is not the property of the Christian religion, and the sooner they embrace that, the sooner they embrace God, IMO.

 

I don't deny the Christian access and experience of God. But I reject their carnal, anti-spiritual arrogance in denying it to others who don't convert to their system of symbols. It's not you who are being rejected spiritually, it's us by Christians. And that is where they are simply missing the boat. It is their loss. It is their shortcoming. It is their sin.

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I am certain people have had experiences similar, yet different than mine.

 

That reminds me of something someone pointed out to me a long time ago about religion.

 

The Virgin Mary never appears to Muslims, Hindus or other religions, but only people that carry the belief that she can appear to them.

 

So your experiences are certainly different, but similar, but how can you say that yours are not culturally influenced?

 

I can't. The only thing that has crossed my mind was Acts where it describes everyone "hearing in their own language"....but that is a stretch on my part....but you never know.

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I am certain people have had experiences similar, yet different than mine. Sure, I would think they are as valid as anyone's. But the point is, IMO, it is my choice to perceive and understand their reality, the meaning behind it. And that seems to be the crux of this discussion.

The crux of this conversation is accepting and even celbrating with someone outside our way of framing it, talking about it, symbolizing for ourselves, with as equal respect as we want for ourselves. Because we ALL know what it is. It is not the property of the Christian religion, and the sooner they embrace that, the sooner they embrace God, IMO.

 

I don't deny the Christian access and experience of God. But I reject their carnal, anti-spiritual arrogance in denying it to others who don't convert to their system of symbols. It's not you who are being rejected spiritually, it's us by Christians. And that is where they are simply missing the boat. It is their loss. It is their shortcoming. It is their sin.

 

How do you know that it is not vanity responsible for lack of acknowledging Jesus?

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How do you know that it is not vanity responsible for lack of acknowledging Jesus?

Because it's not. It's in my heart. I understand what it represents, and if I find a better way for me, then its that which is served and honored and embraced and realized. "You shall know them by their fruits". I acknowledge its value to you.

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How do you know that it is not vanity responsible for lack of acknowledging Jesus?

Because it's not. It's in my heart. I understand what it represents, and if I find a better way for me, then its that which is served and honored and embraced and realized. "You shall know them by their fruits". I acknowledge its value to you.

 

I don't have a complete understanding Keith. I just have deep rooted convictions, like someone else in this discussion :) Don't give up on me, I'm just stubborn. My heart is that none of us parish and we all grow in the Light.

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I can't. The only thing that has crossed my mind was Acts where it describes everyone "hearing in their own language"....but that is a stretch on my part....but you never know.

That passage absolutely positively fascinates me.

 

I don't really know what happened then, but I can conclude that what people call "speaking in tongues" today is nothing like that! everyone "hearing their own language."

 

There is something "fishy" about it though since Papias said that Mark was the "interpreter" of Peter. Did Peter lose his ability to speak in tongues?

 

And what was that about in some other passages about speaking in tongues (as opposed to prophesying) requiring an interpreter? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of speaking in tongues so that everyone hears their own language?

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I am certain people have had experiences similar, yet different than mine. Sure, I would think they are as valid as anyone's. But the point is, IMO, it is my choice to perceive and understand their reality, the meaning behind it. And that seems to be the crux of this discussion.

 

Maybe if you gave me an example I could be more specific...

 

I admit it's tricky to try to understand another person's reality; it's all too easy to project our own assumptions onto what we are told. In my view the meanings of religious experiences are also always open to question, which can be pretty uncomfortable for the person whose experience is being examined. I've seen different people interpret the same description of an experience in different ways, and I've thought of different possible meanings myself regarding my own experiences. It might not even be possible to say whether they are "genuine" or not -- as in, did they come from some external Divinity, or were they generated by that person's mind -- without first making assumptions one cannot prove. There is no empirical method that I'm aware of for determining the ultimate cause of a religious experience.

 

Because there's a lot that cannot be known and a lot of emotions are bound up in the experiences themselves, examining the subject and especially individual examples gets touchy. Nevertheless I've found it to be valuable, which is why I've bothered delving into these questions and asking people about their experiences in the first place. I hope to be able to question yet still show respect to those who share what are often deeply held and very sacred-feeling experiences. I hope that others would do the same.

 

One of the things I find especially interesting and enjoy learning about is how these experiences affect people. I've noticed through the years that some of my own experiences fade in my memory pretty quickly and don't spark much change in me while others have caused me to overhaul my life (similar to how you say "the physical act(s) is up to me to carry out"). I have talked with others who have overhauled their lives or taken really positive action as a result of their religious experiences but I've also seen people whose experiences seemed to affect them negatively (and I've had a few of those in the past as well). This is where I agree that Antlerman is on to something when he asks what the "fruits" of something are. One can't usually know the origin of the experience, but one can appreciate (or not) the result.

 

As far as some specific examples, I'll cite a few.

 

There is someone in the local Pagan community who, during a community ritual many years ago, had a vision where she was holding hands with a long line of people, helping to pull them out of the sea before they drowned, and in which she was told to work with certain very disadvantaged groups of people. She has since done many years of work directly with this group and has been a very committed social advocate for them ever since.

 

Mary made a statement about other religions not having "a savior who actively helps and communicates with His people," or who has a relationship with them. All I can say is that examples abound of Pagans who have long-lasting relationships with Gods and Goddesses, sometimes with one or a few particular Deities, and who communicate with them both on a personal basis (during prayer or ritual, by signs, or through dreams) or occasionally through the aid of an oracle (this page illustrates one particular kind, and there are many). I've found religious practices and experiences that suggest very similar kinds of relationships between Gods and people in religions from all parts of the world; relationships that are shown through the experiences people have of them, and the information and assistance these people seem to receive from them.

 

I've written about a few of my personal religious experiences here in the forum... nothing earth-shattering, but there were a few that were both very surprising and very instructive for me, personally. More than once the information I received was exactly what I needed to learn in order to get "unstuck" from where I was at the time. And similar to your experience, what I was told was something I had to get up and do myself. It appeared to me to come from the Gods. In one particular case, from a specific Deity who showed herself to me and told me her name (as perceived by my "inner" eye and ear) and about whom I later discovered some confirming details. Like you felt very convinced by your experience, I felt very convinced by this one. Could I be wrong? Sure, intellectually I know I could. But the experience is still pretty hard to deny.

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How do you know that it is not vanity responsible for lack of acknowledging Jesus?

Because it's not. It's in my heart. I understand what it represents, and if I find a better way for me, then its that which is served and honored and embraced and realized. "You shall know them by their fruits". I acknowledge its value to you.

 

I don't have a complete understanding Keith. I just have deep rooted convictions, like someone else in this discussion :) Don't give up on me, I'm just stubborn. My heart is that none of us parish and we all grow in the Light.

You and I are in agreement. And that is my point. It's seeing beyond to the next level.

 

 

BTW, Phanta, wish Abi my best for him and for a peaceful outcome for him.

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A brief interlude.

 

I did hear from Abiyoyo this evening. He thanks all for their thoughts, and is hanging in there. He was glad to read of your care.

 

Phanta

 

Glad to hear it. :)

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How do you know that it is not vanity responsible for lack of acknowledging Jesus?

Because it's not. It's in my heart. I understand what it represents, and if I find a better way for me, then its that which is served and honored and embraced and realized. "You shall know them by their fruits". I acknowledge its value to you.

 

I don't have a complete understanding Keith. I just have deep rooted convictions, like someone else in this discussion :) Don't give up on me, I'm just stubborn. My heart is that none of us parish and we all grow in the Light.

You and I are in agreement. And that is my point. It's seeing beyond to the next level.

 

Adding a note to clarify so there's no misunderstanding. When I say I'm in agreement I don't mean by saying that we are in agreement that I see anyone "perishing". I do not believe anyone would perish, in the sense of being sent to hell in an afterlife in the way a traditional Christian might interpret that. I interpret the way you used it above to also mean that. You believe no one will perish.

 

The only way I would apply the meaning of perishing, would be to say 'not come to the fulfillment of their potentials spiritually,' never bringing forth fruit in their lives. In other words living out their whole lives in a darkened imagination and never seeing light - and that can easily apply to both the religious and non-religious. It's purely an individual thing and spiritual enlightenment may come to them through many means - including becoming an atheist. It's the end result that judges its validity to someone. If it produces fruit, then how is it bad? Even Jesus' words say this in Lk 6:43-45,

"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."

 

Jesus and I are in agreement. :) It's not the belief system that judges the Truth.

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Christianity cannot be equaled or exceeded in other faiths because most other faiths don't have a savior who actively helps and communicates with His people. I'm speaking of the relationship part which Pastor was talking about. This is the next ongoing level of His love which grows day by day once you belong to Him. And this is the part that is only exclusive to Christians. When's the last time you called on Mother Nature or Baal or whoever you're down with and they did something remarkable for you? Religions that merely focus on rituals, doctrine or "feelings of oneness" or finding God within ourselves are 100% dead. There's no one to come home to at the end of the day. It's like marrying a mannequin instead of a real person. It looks like the real deal but it's not. Call it putting God in a box or whatever you like, but I personally would rather have a house that looks the same everyday and stays put than a place that can be an apartment, a condo, a bi-level or whatever else my fickle mind wants it to be. Why do people dumb themselves down and refuse to accept that God is not a feeling or a vibe or even nature. He is an intellectual being just like you and I with thoughts and emotions, except He is incomprehensibly smarter, full of love and unbearably holy.

If horses had gods, they would resemble horses. :Doh:

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Now to Christ as symbol and Source. So long as we are attempting to understand, talk about, or relate to something or someone, we will use symbols as an interface to our minds. No symbol in itself is that things' reality, but only represents it. However, our experience of it through the symbol becomes reality to us. It defines 'truth' to us. It becomes what is "real". Anyone using the symbols of a religion, such as Jesus, Bible, Temple, Dove, Mary, Ark, Cross, Crowns, etc, are attempting to relate to something that transcends the mundane, something outside the physical world to the world, something in the non-rational sphere. They give it a name, a face, a symbol to represent something intangible, something experiential.

 

But beyond that symbol – lies what it represents. Behind the rose, is Love. Behind the Expression is the experience. Behind the manifestation, is the Source.

 

You say, “To put Jesus at the level of a symbol is making Him no better than a statue of a false god or some other thing that is worshipped for all the wrong reasons.” But what you should really say is that to worship the manifestation of God as God Himself is idolatry. Jesus, according to scripture is the manifestation of God, as End3 quoted:

 

Col 1:15,19 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation… For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him” The image of the invisible God.

 

I’ll add Heb 1:3: “The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being”

 

I’ll add Jn. 1:4,5 “In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood”.

 

All these speak of the Christ as a Representation. A Manifestation. A Mask. A Face. A Symbol. But behind the Face, is what?? But back to saying what I’ve been trying to get at, the real heart of this. Any time you are using your mind to talk about God, to try to relate to Him rationally, it is necessary to put a face on it, to symbolize it. Jesus is in fact a symbol of God. It’s the face you put on God. But what is behind the face?

I don't think we will get through. They may be right where they are supposed to be. Soooo...your post reminded me of this song by Nightwish (all hail!):

 

Riddler, Riddler ask me why

The birds fly free on a mackerel sky

Ask me whither goes the winds

Whence the endlesstick-tick stream begins

 

Make me guess if the Earth is flat or round

Set a quessing if fantasies are unbound

If tale aren't just for children to see

That it's peace is sleep walks with me

 

As you wish

For kingdom come

The one to know all the answers

You think you dwell in wisdom's sea

Still, sweet ignorance is the key

To a poet's paradise

Challenge the Riddler and you will see

 

Riddler, Riddler ask me why

All mothers beneath the Earth and sky

Hold theait children's hands for a while

Their hearts forever... yours and mine

 

Make me wonder what's the meaning of life

What's the use to be born and then die

Make me guess who's the one

Behind the mask of Father and Son

 

(Repeat chorus)

 

For nature hates virginity

I wish to be touched

Not by the hands of where's and why's

But by the Ocean's minds

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Christianity cannot be equaled or exceeded in other faiths because most other faiths don't have a savior who actively helps and communicates with His people. I'm speaking of the relationship part which Pastor was talking about. This is the next ongoing level of His love which grows day by day once you belong to Him. And this is the part that is only exclusive to Christians. When's the last time you called on Mother Nature or Baal or whoever you're down with and they did something remarkable for you? Religions that merely focus on rituals, doctrine or "feelings of oneness" or finding God within ourselves are 100% dead. There's no one to come home to at the end of the day. It's like marrying a mannequin instead of a real person. It looks like the real deal but it's not. Call it putting God in a box or whatever you like, but I personally would rather have a house that looks the same everyday and stays put than a place that can be an apartment, a condo, a bi-level or whatever else my fickle mind wants it to be. Why do people dumb themselves down and refuse to accept that God is not a feeling or a vibe or even nature. He is an intellectual being just like you and I with thoughts and emotions, except He is incomprehensibly smarter, full of love and unbearably holy.

If horses had gods, they would resemble horses. :Doh:

 

Not zebras? :scratch:

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Christianity cannot be equaled or exceeded in other faiths because most other faiths don't have a savior who actively helps and communicates with His people. I'm speaking of the relationship part which Pastor was talking about. This is the next ongoing level of His love which grows day by day once you belong to Him. And this is the part that is only exclusive to Christians. When's the last time you called on Mother Nature or Baal or whoever you're down with and they did something remarkable for you? Religions that merely focus on rituals, doctrine or "feelings of oneness" or finding God within ourselves are 100% dead. There's no one to come home to at the end of the day. It's like marrying a mannequin instead of a real person. It looks like the real deal but it's not. Call it putting God in a box or whatever you like, but I personally would rather have a house that looks the same everyday and stays put than a place that can be an apartment, a condo, a bi-level or whatever else my fickle mind wants it to be. Why do people dumb themselves down and refuse to accept that God is not a feeling or a vibe or even nature. He is an intellectual being just like you and I with thoughts and emotions, except He is incomprehensibly smarter, full of love and unbearably holy.

If horses had gods, they would resemble horses. :Doh:

 

Not zebras? :scratch:

No, that's a horse of a different stripe. :)

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