The Love Of Jesus

[Antlerman]

Maybe I am just slow....I have been accused of that many times in my lifetime, but I can see what appears to be fundamental differences in our beliefs.

If every time you try to speak to what I believe you fail, then how can you claim there are fundamental differences? You don't even understand my views. You have accused me of saying this, believing that, etc, and been wrong every time.

 

In the words of dear old Yoda, "So certain are you?"

 

And that, coupled with conviction.....I don't know that there is a good end to this discussion.

Perhaps, and that will be in part the point of the post I'm intending to make. "What we are, that only can we see".

 

I am not going back through our similarities as truthfully, I believe we have little common ground there.

Not as I see it, but then you wouldn't know that would you, since you have yet to understand how I perceive things?

 

What I would suggest is that to facilitate better understanding and edification of others, you might take the time to carefully choose your words so that they might identify that which you so adamently defend. You have lost me on more than one occasion by saying it's "this" and then later saying it's "that" (Please note Phanta's parody). I know of only One, and that was my experience that I have already shared.

I always, choose my words with extreme care and thoughtfulness. That isn't going to make a difference. Since even though I have, you still didn't read them or manage to understand them, and I had to bring you back to them. Imagine if this were a verbal discussion! Here, all I have to do is point back to the actually typed words you didn't see/hear.

 

BTW, I reject being called adamant. That is again, a false representation of me. Again, a bad reading.

 

I have noticed that you and those that appear to agree with you seem to share more of an earthly/universal/nature, and an overwhelming unity with that than any form of Christianity.

*bzzzz* Again error. Perhaps you haven't see the near 200 times I've used the word TRANSCENDENT in this thread??? Transcendent: "transcending the universe or material existence."

 

Admit, you just don't understand what we're saying. Not that we are diametrically opposed. I reject that we are, and I have tried, and tried, to reach out to that understanding. So your plea that this be about helping each other understand, has in fact been done from the very outset. And yet, we are here. What can be done about that? Anything? That's what I hope to meagerly attempt to address in that post I intend.

 

 

I can only conclude at this point is that the mind is not ready for the heart.

[Antlerman]

 

Oh, I need to stop because I'm derailing the thread again!

It was hardly a derailing. It was a glowing refutation!

[MultifariousBirdLady]

Now I know what you'll say: "Larry I do experience though things." Yet this is will always be a circular argument between the both of us because you cannot measure the type of love that we are referencing.

 

You're right, this is a problem that really doesn't have some objective measure to determine what kind of love each person is experiencing.

 

Except for this:

People who have felt it in one context, and then switch beliefs and feel it in another, have a reference point for both.

 

You may be able to prove it to yourself, but you can't prove it to anybody else.

[Guest end3]

Antlerman, on 01 November 2007 - 07:04 AM, said:

 

I fully believe you experienced that. I've experienced something very similar. A point in my life of great crisis; an event that took me to the edge of death; a cry of desperation for help out into the utter darkness; white light suddenly appearing everywhere, in an instant driving everything else out that tormented me; a complete cessation of time; infinite peace, infinite love, infinite knowledge, infinite awareness, infinite power, infinite grace and compassion, all in only a sliver of an inconceivable infinity that lay beyond that; and then a gentle voice of infinite compassion and awareness speaking only my name, conveying my life's story before my eyes in an instant of utter timelessness with the knowledge spoken without words to my mind that I was never alone, that was loved beyond all knowledge. Shall I continue?

 

Rising from this vision I felt all the pain of my heart come gushing out of the deepest part of my soul in a torrent of tears, being both afraid and amazed at what had just happened. Two days later, I began what began my lifelong search for understanding of this. Being raised in a Christian culture, seeking out a minister seemed the most appropriate beginning. I openly shared my experience with wonder and puzzlement in my voice, to the stolid looks of the minister who gave little response. The following day I spoke to another, this time a Catholic priest, who likewise sat with a blank stare and his offering what I learned later to be the typical Catholic response of asking if I had anything to confess.

 

I left feeling discouraged, lost, and confused, yet with this knowledge in my heart. Suddenly, without any warning or indication, the entire Universe opened to me before my eyes, as if a great curtain opened in an instant. I suddenly saw for the first time in my life - color. The world was full of color, with vibrant greens and blues everywhere! The World was full of light and love and color, and permeated everything as a sort of living joy that surrounded me, moved through me, and began flowing out of the most unimaginably deepest part of my being out into the world in a sort of song, as can only be described as utter, living love.

 

I saw people walking by me, and rather than feeling darkness and shame in my heart and averting my eyes away as in my past, instead I felt pure love and joy. No thoughts of darkness were in me anywhere at that moment, and I felt truly alive for the first time in my life.

 

From this point began the life-long quest of mine that I stumbled about to build upon, again making the mistake of looking for answers from ministers. Two years later, and no further towards finding answers I happened upon a very charismatic Biblical literalist whose convictions of truth inspired me. I was caught into the snare, and found myself convinced somehow that all this was somehow God calling me to serve him in the ministry. I enrolled in Bible College and graduated top of my class with a degree in theology, all the while being ripped apart inside by the conflict of what was in my heart, and what was being portrayed about God.

 

You can read the rest of my story I posted here two years ago if you are interested: http://www.ex-christ...wtopic=6730&hl=

 

The point is, to this day I still embrace what I experienced. I still accept it as real. I however do not believe it says anything about a particular theology about a particular God from a particular religion. I'm planning to share my thoughts on what this means to me in another thread I'm having with Ruby in the Arena forum here called, "Evidence of the Heart". So I'll save my thoughts for there, as they are going to get long - very long. (be patient as my time is limited these days for awhile)

 

P.S. In my testimony link I included above, I skipped over the first part of what I mentioned here. I didn't feel comfortable at that time to mention it.

 

Please look again Keith......and everyone else for that matter.

[Antlerman]

clarify. That makes no sense. You just reposted me.

[Guest end3]

clarify. That makes no sense. You just reposted me.

 

you wouldn't trust me if I told you.

[Antlerman]

clarify. That makes no sense. You just reposted me.

 

you wouldn't trust me if I told you.

Why do you assume such things? I've listened to you. Recall our last PM.

[Guest end3]

clarify. That makes no sense. You just reposted me.

 

you wouldn't trust me if I told you.

Why do you assume such things? I've listened to you. Recall our last PM.

 

I am going to tell you as I don't want you to die tonight and not know. If you don't agree with what I am saying, just please keep it to yourself, but maybe you will consider it as you grow older. Please remember, I don't think myself crazy.

 

Here goes,

 

You are right, this was God. I am certain you could match each bolded line with almost an exact match from the Bible. For one, your thoughts today have been rationalized over time. You are saying that symbols are not part of "it", yet your "it" spoke your name, knew your life, and drove out the things that tormented you in the darkness with Light.

 

The key is after this, instead of affirmation of your experience, you received nutballs in the form of two ministers. You were sure this was God, and you were right and are right. Your separation from orthodoxy began here by the knowing that you knew in your heart and strong belief that told you that these nutballs are not getting it right....the beginning of the separation from symbology and orthodoxy through your faith.

 

Then, when presented with the harder things of Christianity, instead of your faith moving you through in faith, your previous encounter with the nutballs drove you more in the direction away than towards.

 

The whole thing reads as a disception....

 

You don't have to believe me. But you remember our conversation in shout? You remember the agreement of the enormity behind the sliver? How is it that I know this? How is it that it is in your story?

 

I am asking again, if you don't agree with this, then please keep it to yourself.

 

Thanks,

 

ENDIII

[Antlerman]

clarify. That makes no sense. You just reposted me.

 

you wouldn't trust me if I told you.

Why do you assume such things? I've listened to you. Recall our last PM.

 

I am going to tell you as I don't want you to die tonight and not know. If you don't agree with what I am saying, just please keep it to yourself, but maybe you will consider it as you grow older. Please remember, I don't think myself crazy.

 

Here goes,

 

You are right, this was God. I am certain you could match each bolded line with almost an exact match from the Bible. For one, your thoughts today have been rationalized over time. You are saying that symbols are not part of "it", yet your "it" spoke your name, knew your life, and drove out the things that tormented you in the darkness with Light.

Ed, now you have been hearing me, at least in this. And I deeply appreciate your sincerity. It is indeed felt. I am not however saying that symbols are not part part of it. In fact, I am, and have been saying, that it is through symbols we 'view' it. But it is not it. It, is beyond, much, much, much beyond. In that moment was absolute infinity. But yet a sliver. An infinitesimal part of absolute infinity, which part itself was absolute infinity. I know you know what I mean.

 

We interpret, we frame, we try in our feeble, minuscule ways, to relate to this Infinite, Absolute. But it is at its best, at its highest, only a form. A way to feebly try to talk about it, to understand it. And that, those ways of talking about it are not themselves Absolute! No! Their voice is heard in all languages. In all forms. That is what I've been trying to say.

 

My sole complaint is that those who have a way to talk about it, don't hear the Spirit it is attempting, in our weak human ways, to talk about, and instead make that, the language about it, that Truth itself. That is the sin. That is the sad weakening and diminishment of the Divine to a mere human interpretation. That is what religion has become. It is the institutionalized representation of God, that is your 'watering down' of the Truth.

 

Is there truth in the Christian system? Of course, just as there is in all systems, whether they be Buddhist, Hindu, Secular, and Science. It is in all, through all, and above all. I know what it is Ed, and so do you. I celebrate that you can embrace it in your way. And I hope, no pray, that you for yourself, can celebrate it in all of us as well. We are all those blind men around the Elephant.

 

Peace, my friend,

 

Keith

[NotBlinded]

Ed, now you have been hearing me, at least in this. And I deeply appreciate your sincerity. It is indeed felt. I am not however saying that symbols are not part part of it. In fact, I am, and have been saying, that it is through symbols we 'view' it. But it is not it. It, is beyond, much, much, much beyond. In that moment was absolute infinity. But yet a sliver. An infinitesimal part of absolute infinity, which part itself was absolute infinity. I know you know what I mean.

 

We interpret, we frame, we try in our feeble, minuscule ways, to relate to this Infinite, Absolute. But it is at its best, at its highest, only a form. A way to feebly try to talk about it, to understand it. And that, those ways of talking about it are not themselves Absolute! No! Their voice is heard in all languages. In all forms. That is what I've been trying to say.

 

My sole complaint is that those who have a way to talk about it, don't hear the Spirit it is attempting, in our weak human ways, to talk about, and instead make that, the language about it, that Truth itself. That is the sin. That is the sad weakening and diminishment of the Divine to a mere human interpretation. That is what religion has become. It is the institutionalized representation of God, that is your 'watering down' of the Truth.

 

Is there truth in the Christian system? Of course, just as there is in all systems, whether they be Buddhist, Hindu, Secular, and Science. It is in all, through all, and above all. I know what it is Ed, and so do you. I celebrate that you can embrace it in your way. And I hope, no pray, that you for yourself, can celebrate it in all of us as well. We are all those blind men around the Elephant.

 

Peace, my friend,

 

Keith

Beautiful...

 

I heard on the way in this morning a small phrase that says it all about symbols. "It is pointless to analyze the pointers." The wonderous, breath-taking Majesty that lies beyond all pointers can never be contained in the pointers. Yet, the pointers are absolutely necessary and once we understand, or feel that Majesty, we can appreciate and revere the pointers as being wonderous in themselves. This essence can then be recognized in any symbol, any religion, any thought about the Truth because it is the Essence itself speaking through them. We can even recognize it in mistranslations because the Truth shines through regardless. The Truth is always there, but we have to "see" it, not "through a glass dimly", but with it's full radiance that causes the foreground to be obliterated as with someone's high beams directed right at us. It no longer matters what shape the symbol takes because we no longer need to "analyze the pointer."

[Ouroboros]

It must sux to be the elephant with all the blind people poking and probing it.

 

Hey! Get out of my behind!

[Snakefoot]

It must sux to be the elephant with all the blind people poking and probing it.

 

Hey! Get out of my behind!

 

Let go of that! That is not my trunk!

[NotBlinded]

You two!

[Antlerman]

It must sux to be the elephant with all the blind people poking and probing it.

 

Hey! Get out of my behind!

 

Let go of that! That is not my trunk!

And you see... to the one blindly groping there he might conclude that God is sex.

[Ouroboros]

Sexy like an elephant. That's a new concept. "Oh, I'm so horny. Double horny to be accurate."

[Snakefoot]

Sexy like an elephant. That's a new concept. "Oh, I'm so horny. Double horny to be accurate."

 

Well, if you want to be accurate, it would be triple horny counting the tusks...possibly quadruple depending on what he does with his trunk.

[Antlerman]

Alright, enough of that...

[Snakefoot]

An elephant escaped from a circus and wound up in a little old lady's vegetable garden, where it began pulling up her cabbages with its trunk and stuffing them in its mouth.

 

Having never seen an elephant, the little old lady was alarmed and called police.

 

"There's some kind of huge, gray animal in my garden, and it's pulling up my cabbages with its tail."

 

Thinking the old girl must be off here rocker, the policeman asked, "What's it doing with the cabbages?"

 

After a pause, the old lady said, "Sonny, if I told you, you wouldn't believe it."

[Rev R]

"It is pointless to analyze the pointers."

 

but remember that as easily as one can get hung up on the pointers one can get hung up on the fact that they are only pointers.

[Antlerman]

"It is pointless to analyze the pointers."

 

but remember that as easily as one can get hung up on the pointers one can get hung up on the fact that they are only pointers.

And I think that is why I've heard others complain saying that we're saying that they are 'merely symbols', or 'average manifestation', etc. In looking at them, to understand the nature of them, is only meant to realize a reality that is greater than the symbols themselves and to hold them with an open hand, rather then a clenched fist. If you hold it with a clenched fist, the clenched fist of literalism, you cannot see beyond the symbol and consequently other symbols in others hands are viewed as different gods.

 

Deconstructionism alone leads to reductionism, which in itself is a form of literalism, and that is what seeks to deprive the symbol of any power or meaning. But deconstruction to understand its nature and to use that to free it to something greater is another matter. It's the latter that I'm interested in. Actually, I added a "Part 4" to my 'testimony' today that I first posted 4 years ago, after seeing Zandurian had resurrected it and I re-read it today: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/6730-my-testimony-part-1-of/page__view__findpost__p__513020 I talk about that in there, and when I post that promised post in here, I'll draw from that and build off it.

[Guest end3]

Still in the role of the crazy.....I am just a hint shocked that no one can see the storyline of AM's life as told through his experience.....the turns that lead to a different outcome in his life.

 

And fwiw.....I think it would make an excellent movie.

[Antlerman]

Still in the role of the crazy.....I am just a hint shocked that no one can see the storyline of AM's life as told through his experience.....the turns that lead to a different outcome in his life.

 

And fwiw.....I think it would make an excellent movie.

Read: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/6730-my-testimony-part-1-of/page__view__findpost__p__513020

 

BTW, the outcome is exactly what I was seeking, and could not find in Christianity. I'm glad its working for you however...

[Antlerman]

Let me clarify further. It is exactly what I went to the Church to find and could not, and in fact it stood in my way. Not because of nut-balls, unless you mean all of Conservative, literalist, Evangelical Christians. Then yes, they did stand in my way. If I had met someone like Bishop Spong, perhaps I would be a Christianity. But it is precisely the attitude displayed that calls my road "Deceived" as you did, that demonstrates a lack of connection with Spirit. It is that that I left Christianity over. That is incompatible with God on the level of my experience of the Divine.

[Guest end3]

Let me clarify further. It is exactly what I went to the Church to find and could not, and in fact it stood in my way. Not because of nut-balls, unless you mean all of Conservative, literalist, Evangelical Christians. Then yes, they did stand in my way. If I had met someone like Bishop Spong, perhaps I would be a Christianity. But it is precisely the attitude displayed that calls my road "Deceived" as you did, that demonstrates a lack of connection with Spirit. It is that that I left Christianity over. That is incompatible with God on the level of my experience of the Divine.

 

I hate this method of conversation.....It makes for so many misunderstandings....and my writing compounds that.

 

By deceived, my view of your life is a severalfold thing. Let me paraphrase:

 

1) God reveals Himself.

2) Humans can't see that this is the Truth....the two ministers you spoke of that maybe were stuck in orthodoxy, in good faith or maybe bad in their practice.

3) You searched elsewhere in your faith because you knew it to be true.

4) You go to Bible School.

5) When hit with the difficult concepts of Christianity, then because you are more apt to reject the orthodoxy as you did before, then this path becomes the better option. Not only rejecting orthodoxy, but rejecting the Name of the Truth.

 

You say that your end result has allowed you to find what you need, but I ask this....

 

What about the needs of others to find the Truth inside of orthodoxy. Is it right to abandon those that sit in the pews with sincere hope, trust of healing?

 

Our experiences are verbatim the same.

 

The deception is not by those....it is by Satan or whatever name you wish to call evil.

 

This is in line with the Power of the Spirit, that everyone grab everyone else and save them from this....the torment of the darkness.

[bdp]

 

 

The desception ...

 

DECEPTION - do you not have spell check? Copy that and paste it into your replies as needed.

 

btw 'satan' or any analogue thereof does not exist.