The Love Of Jesus

[Neon Genesis]

Jesus only blesses the work of someone that does work in His name (as He did in Mark) and only declares someone's faith great when they are declaring their faith in His work (as He did in Luke's account of the Roman Soldier).

 

 

 

In the book of Acts, was Cornelius the Centurion blessed by God before or after he converted to Christianity?

[Rev R]

Say what you need to say A-man. I'd like to give it a read regardless.

[Guest ephymeris]

Antlerman, I don't comment on a lot of your posts because I don't feel like I can really hold my own in these sort of discussions with you but I read many of your posts and are often amazed at what you convey. Post 515 is wonderful. As is often the case, you have helped me by clarifying and putting into words things I feel but can't express. Thanks

[Guest end3]

I'm just going to repost these examples of what non-Christians have that Larry can't have because he is a Christian. You cannot understand the Love of God like this if you are a Christian.

 

Greetings Mary. I’m going to try something that may prove to be enlightening. Rev R had suggested to Pastor before trying explaining this without using the Christian language to describe it. I’m going to take some of the things you say and restate them and address my response to that.

 

<snip>

 

You say: ” However, the difference between a believer's experience knowing the love of Jesus and the non-believer's experience, is that the non-believer has never let that experience ignite the belief in Him, which is the seed for a real relationship with God.”

 

Translated: ‘I don’t see that those who don’t believe as I do can possibly have experienced what I do with God, because how I believe results in this for me. Therefore because they don’t believe this that means that can’t experience this. Either the switch is on, or it’s off.

 

Response: This is not the reality of life for others who don’t use the same system of belief. They do experience what you experience. And in cases, far deeper experiences of the Divine.

 

Examples:

 

1. Ralph Woodrow Emerson.

 

“Beauty in nature is not ultimate. It is the herald of inward and eternal beauty, and is not alone a solid and satisfactory good…

 

Nature is a symbol of spirit… Before the revelations of the Soul, time, space and nature shrink away… In the hour of vision there is nothing that can be called gratitude, nor properly joy. The soul raised over passion beholds identity and eternal causation, perceives the self-existence of Truth and Right, and calms itself with knowing that all things go well. Vast spaces of nature, the Atlantic Ocean, the South Seas, long intervals of time, years, centuries, are of no account…

 

Let us stun and astonish the intruding rabble of men and books and institutions by a simple declaration of the divine fact. Bid the intruders take the shoes from off their feet, for God is here within. Let our simplicity judge them, and our docility to our own law demonstrate the poverty of Nature beside our native riches.”

 

These are the words of a man who rejected Christianity.

 

2. Now the words of a Christian, however she would be considered as “not knowing God” by most Evangelical Christians because she was Catholic, a “non-Christian” according to many. The words of Mother Teresa:

 

“ And now let us see what becomes of this silkworm. When it is in this state of cessation, and quite dead to the world, it comes out little white butterfly, Oh, greatness of God, that a soul should come out like this after being closely united for so short a time – never, I think, for as long as half an hour. For think of the difference between an ugly worm and a white butterfly; it is just the same here. The soul cannot think how it can have merited such a blessing – whence such blessing could have come to it, I meant to say, for it knows quite well that it has not merited it at all.

 

….

 

But here it is like rain falling from the heavens into a river or spring; there is nothing but water there and it is impossible to divide or separate the water belongs to the river from that which fell from the heavens. Or it is as if a tiny streamlet enters the sea, from which it will find no way of separating itself, or as if in a room there were two large windows which the light streamed in: it enters in different places but it all becomes one.”

These all are, by the way, expressions of direct experience. Not a theoretical speculation. I know this for myself.

 

3. Sri Auribindo, Eastern Indian mystic/philosopher:

 

“Its first effect has been the liberation of life and mind out of Matter; its last effect has been to assist the emergence of a spiritual consciousness, a spiritual will and spiritual sense of existence in the terrestrial being so that he is no longer solely preoccupied with his outermost life or with mental pursuits and interests, but has learned to look within, to discover his inner being, his spiritual self, to aspire to overpass earth and her limitations. As he grows more and more inward, his boundaries mental, vital, and spiritual begin to broaden, the bonds that held life, mind, soul to their first limitations loosen or snap, and man the mental being begins to have a glimpse of a larger kingdom of self and world closed to the first earth-life.”

4. Sri Ramana Maharshi:

 

“The Self is known to everyone but not clearly. The Being is the Self. “I am” is the name of God. Of all the definitions of God, none is indeed so well put as the Biblical statement I AM THAT I AM. The Absolute Being is what is – It is the Self. It is God. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact, God is none other than the Self.”

 

Again, these are expressions of humans who have experienced something that Transcendent Love, and is found regardless of religion. The effects of this are life transforming, by the way, not just for a moment like you suggested.

 

Will you continue to say that they can’t or don’t experience God the way a Christian can? One more example:

 

5. Meister Eckhart:

 

“For in this break-through I discover that I and God are one. There I am what I was, and I grow neither smaller nor bigger, for I am an immovable cause that moves all things.

 

Therefore also I am unborn, and following the way of my unborn being I can never die. Following the way of my unborn being I have always been, I am now, and shall remain eternally.”

 

Now I repeat. A Christian cannot experience the Love of the Transcendent God described above so long as they are Christians. They will always be outside of that because their beliefs are in error.

 

 

 

 

 

.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, let me ask this question Larry and End? The spirit in you, how does it feel to hear someone dismissing your experience of God on the basis of being or not being a member of this group or that group? Of not being a Buddhist or some other religion?

 

This is you to us.

 

You ask what have you not answered? The Truth of the Heart. What says your heart? I'll tell you mine, and it embraces you in that Light, regardless of how your mind holds it. It is fully yours as it is mine. I believe you experience it, and in all descriptions, it is not different. I have experienced it as a Christian, and as a non-Christian.

 

And End, in no way can it be said I am against Christ. Whatever he expresses as a sign, that of the Divine, I embrace. How can you not know this, if you listen with your heart instead of the head and theologies of interpretation?

 

A bad tree cannot bear good fruits. By their fruits you shall know them. Either you accept Christ in others, in whatever form that takes, or you reject it in them. But you cannot deny it. Who is against "Christ", End? Who is against God in others???? Not I my friend. It's the Christian who sees it in others and denies it on the basis of their beliefs. To me, this that 'Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". To call that Love in others, the Antichrist.

 

"By their doctrines you shall know them?"

 

True or false?

 

My experience was related to Christian theology specifically through Jesus, the Cross...doing harm to Him by helping Him be crucified by my sin through my tongue, and not only this, but then doing damage, crucifying His creation/humanity with my tongue through the way I had been hurt as a child....a place for satan to plant a seed of hate that I didn't know he had planted.....none the less, I let it grow.

 

You are essentially saying that I have programmed this into my mind by participating in Christianity. The impact of this understanding was so great, that there is very little way that this was just a manifestation of practice.....the relationship to how it was hurting Him.

 

I don't want to go any farther...as you read this, you are trying to figure out a way to tell me how Christ is just generic.

[Guest end3]

P.S. I'm still considering what I wanted to post, and whether or not it will mean anything since even the clear, simple bits are not understood, let alone laying out something complex. If I do, it will need to be for the benefit of us, without hope of communicating something that can't be communicated so simply as has been.

 

Sorry for the tone of frustration I'm displaying...

 

"I can't listen to my heart, it says this over here in the Bible! Right there, in black and white. See? You have to interpret it properly to know the truth."

 

Proof positive you are not willing to suffer for your brothers.

 

I can't wait for the 3 page pharisaical diatribe.

[Abiyoyo]

P.S. I'm still considering what I wanted to post, and whether or not it will mean anything since even the clear, simple bits are not understood, let alone laying out something complex. If I do, it will need to be for the benefit of us, without hope of communicating something that can't be communicated so simply as has been.

 

Sorry for the tone of frustration I'm displaying...

 

"I can't listen to my heart, it says this over here in the Bible! Right there, in black and white. See? You have to interpret it properly to know the truth."

 

Proof positive you are not willing to suffer for your brothers.

 

I can't wait for the 3 page pharisaical diatribe.

 

 

End3, I am in a weird spot in my life, my walk with God, weird in an enlightening way, whether one thinks it be enlightening or not, it is nevertheless enlightening to my own well being. So, dont take this the wrong way, but, if we where to be holy (because God is Holy) in the sense I feel you imply a Christian should be prescribed to adhere with; then we should all be monks...Monks are holy End3.

[Abiyoyo]

............

 

Wanted to add to what I just said that God is God, right? If there is only one God, then that will be the one God, of all, right? God promised Abraham way back in the OT that his descendants will be as the sands of the sea, etc. Have you ever thought about Islam? Do you know how Islam started before Muhammad?

 

Ishmael. They are Jews End3. If you add the Muslims and Jews up together, it makes about 1.4 billion people, with Christians following at around 2.1 billion. This makes 3.5 billion people that are pray to the God of Israel, ......or does it? Christians pray to Jesus.

 

Are they excluded? Are Muslims not permitted in heaven? Jews?

 

I know,...not unless they accept that Christ is Savior, right? But, will God hold them accountable for pertaining to his own laws, and the laws of Moses.

 

Has Christianity led people to do evil? Of course, history shows it, wars, violence, etc.

Has Islam led people to do evil? Another of course.

 

All religions have conquered in the name of God, whether via Christ, Muhammad, or Moses.

 

But, they all connect to the same God, right? So, what exactly is it that makes Christianity believe that you have to believe in worship Christ to be with God? Worship and believe are two total opposite things, right?

 

Muslims believe Christ was a great prophet, the one to return for Armageddon. Jews are the only ones that don't see Jesus as anything, a false prophet that has made people stray from God, yet they have thousands of years of heritage to back up their suspicions, as well as Islam.

 

So who wins?

[Antlerman]

Antlerman, I don't comment on a lot of your posts because I don't feel like I can really hold my own in these sort of discussions with you but I read many of your posts and are often amazed at what you convey. Post 515 is wonderful. As is often the case, you have helped me by clarifying and putting into words things I feel but can't express. Thanks

Thank you. You should however join in if you feel to. Every voice has light. Mine is too often fighting to find center between my mind and spirit. All this is for me is to bring them together. It's far simpler than where I go with it. But I go there because of the questions that cloud our thoughts in culture. I hope to have some voice to that in this. We have lost our way as a culture in many ways, but we are moving towards that Center. But it has to be together, and through a process. Everyone is part of that process. It's our evolution.

 

And now I think I'll work on my thoughts...

 

In Peace...

 

Keith

[Shyone]

 

My experience was related to Christian theology specifically through Jesus, the Cross...doing harm to Him by helping Him be crucified by my sin through my tongue, and not only this, but then doing damage, crucifying His creation/humanity with my tongue through the way I had been hurt as a child....a place for satan to plant a seed of hate that I didn't know he had planted.....none the less, I let it grow.

But Jesus is already dead. He died a long time ago. You had nothing to do with his crucifixion, and you had nothing to do with Adam eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

The best we can do is to avoid past mistakes. Learn from the past. When you recognize that you have done something wrong, ask forgiveness from the person wronged, not some impersonal (and nonexistent) entity. Oh, and then don't do it again, or at least try not to.

 

I see no reason to make wrong-doing any more complicated than it is. Make it right.

[Shyone]

 

End3, I am in a weird spot in my life, my walk with God, weird in an enlightening way, whether one thinks it be enlightening or not, it is nevertheless enlightening to my own well being. So, dont take this the wrong way, but, if we where to be holy (because God is Holy) in the sense I feel you imply a Christian should be prescribed to adhere with; then we should all be monks...Monks are holy End3.

I really should stay out of this, but I can't help myself.

 

Monks are useless if they withdraw from the world. I'd rather have some misguided evangelist helping the poor and doing real things for humanity (other than teaching) than a monk in a cloister.

 

I don't pretend to know how you would define holy, because it's a loaded term, but doing good by my fellow man (and woman) is something that I call holy. Living a good life, and helping others, is holy to me.

[Shyone]

............

 

Wanted to add to what I just said that God is God, right? If there is only one God, then that will be the one God, of all, right? God promised Abraham way back in the OT that his descendants will be as the sands of the sea, etc. Have you ever thought about Islam? Do you know how Islam started before Muhammad?

 

Ishmael. They are Jews End3. If you add the Muslims and Jews up together, it makes about 1.4 billion people, with Christians following at around 2.1 billion. This makes 3.5 billion people that are pray to the God of Israel, ......or does it? Christians pray to Jesus.

 

Are they excluded? Are Muslims not permitted in heaven? Jews?

 

I know,...not unless they accept that Christ is Savior, right? But, will God hold them accountable for pertaining to his own laws, and the laws of Moses.

 

Has Christianity led people to do evil? Of course, history shows it, wars, violence, etc.

Has Islam led people to do evil? Another of course.

 

All religions have conquered in the name of God, whether via Christ, Muhammad, or Moses.

 

But, they all connect to the same God, right? So, what exactly is it that makes Christianity believe that you have to believe in worship Christ to be with God? Worship and believe are two total opposite things, right?

 

Muslims believe Christ was a great prophet, the one to return for Armageddon. Jews are the only ones that don't see Jesus as anything, a false prophet that has made people stray from God, yet they have thousands of years of heritage to back up their suspicions, as well as Islam.

 

So who wins?

Strange, but I agree with most of what you have said. You have centered on the Abrahamic religions however and passed over the majority of the world's population.

 

They may not share much, but each civilization has wisdom, and every people has goodness (and its opposite).

 

In dwelling, be close to the land.

In meditation, go deep in the heart.

In dealing with others, be gentle and kind.

In speech, be true.

In ruling, be just.

In daily life, be competent.

 

So who wins?

 

"No fight: No blame."

[MultifariousBirdLady]

My experience was related to Christian theology specifically through Jesus, the Cross...doing harm to Him by helping Him be crucified by my sin through my tongue, and not only this, but then doing damage, crucifying His creation/humanity with my tongue through the way I had been hurt as a child....a place for satan to plant a seed of hate that I didn't know he had planted.....none the less, I let it grow.

 

You are essentially saying that I have programmed this into my mind by participating in Christianity. The impact of this understanding was so great, that there is very little way that this was just a manifestation of practice.....the relationship to how it was hurting Him.

 

I don't want to go any farther...as you read this, you are trying to figure out a way to tell me how Christ is just generic.

 

Hi End,

 

I would like to see if I understand your objection correctly. Are you are saying here that the experience you had was so personal, on-target and life-changing for you that you do not see how this could come from a generic, non-personal God? Or are you saying that the experience was so personal, on-target and life-changing for you, in this Christian context, that you cannot believe that very similar experiences could happen in other religious contexts?

 

I am not sure I am understanding the connection you appear to be making between your profound experience and your statement that you think Antlerman will want to say that Christ is generic.

 

Personally, it has also been my experience that manifestations of the Divine in various religious contexts can result in encounters that are very personal, on-target and life-changing. I am not sure I would call what is behind these experiences something "generic," though, as that seems too impersonal to me. Rather, it appears to me that although the Divine is so much more than we humans can ever fully perceive, it is perfectly capable and willing to engage us in very personal, specific forms and ways.

 

Is it that you object to the idea that this Divine-beyond-human-comprehension could reveal itself differently to different people, perhaps according to individual needs or conditioning?

[Guest end3]

AM is using the term Christ being non-specific to Jesus....in quotes "Christ"....it's as simple as that.

 

What I wrote about my experience is specific as I said, to Jesus, the Cross, the Crucifiction.

 

Christianity is specific to Jesus being the Christ, not everyone's God being "Christ".

[Pastorl5]

I'm just going to repost these examples of what non-Christians have that Larry can't have because he is a Christian. You cannot understand the Love of God like this if you are a Christian.

 

Greetings Mary. I’m going to try something that may prove to be enlightening. Rev R had suggested to Pastor before trying explaining this without using the Christian language to describe it. I’m going to take some of the things you say and restate them and address my response to that.

 

<snip>

 

You say: ” However, the difference between a believer's experience knowing the love of Jesus and the non-believer's experience, is that the non-believer has never let that experience ignite the belief in Him, which is the seed for a real relationship with God.”

 

Translated: ‘I don’t see that those who don’t believe as I do can possibly have experienced what I do with God, because how I believe results in this for me. Therefore because they don’t believe this that means that can’t experience this. Either the switch is on, or it’s off.

 

Response: This is not the reality of life for others who don’t use the same system of belief. They do experience what you experience. And in cases, far deeper experiences of the Divine.

 

Examples:

 

1. Ralph Woodrow Emerson.

 

“Beauty in nature is not ultimate. It is the herald of inward and eternal beauty, and is not alone a solid and satisfactory good…

 

Nature is a symbol of spirit… Before the revelations of the Soul, time, space and nature shrink away… In the hour of vision there is nothing that can be called gratitude, nor properly joy. The soul raised over passion beholds identity and eternal causation, perceives the self-existence of Truth and Right, and calms itself with knowing that all things go well. Vast spaces of nature, the Atlantic Ocean, the South Seas, long intervals of time, years, centuries, are of no account…

 

Let us stun and astonish the intruding rabble of men and books and institutions by a simple declaration of the divine fact. Bid the intruders take the shoes from off their feet, for God is here within. Let our simplicity judge them, and our docility to our own law demonstrate the poverty of Nature beside our native riches.”

 

These are the words of a man who rejected Christianity.

 

2. Now the words of a Christian, however she would be considered as “not knowing God” by most Evangelical Christians because she was Catholic, a “non-Christian” according to many. The words of Mother Teresa:

 

“ And now let us see what becomes of this silkworm. When it is in this state of cessation, and quite dead to the world, it comes out little white butterfly, Oh, greatness of God, that a soul should come out like this after being closely united for so short a time – never, I think, for as long as half an hour. For think of the difference between an ugly worm and a white butterfly; it is just the same here. The soul cannot think how it can have merited such a blessing – whence such blessing could have come to it, I meant to say, for it knows quite well that it has not merited it at all.

 

….

 

But here it is like rain falling from the heavens into a river or spring; there is nothing but water there and it is impossible to divide or separate the water belongs to the river from that which fell from the heavens. Or it is as if a tiny streamlet enters the sea, from which it will find no way of separating itself, or as if in a room there were two large windows which the light streamed in: it enters in different places but it all becomes one.”

These all are, by the way, expressions of direct experience. Not a theoretical speculation. I know this for myself.

 

3. Sri Auribindo, Eastern Indian mystic/philosopher:

 

“Its first effect has been the liberation of life and mind out of Matter; its last effect has been to assist the emergence of a spiritual consciousness, a spiritual will and spiritual sense of existence in the terrestrial being so that he is no longer solely preoccupied with his outermost life or with mental pursuits and interests, but has learned to look within, to discover his inner being, his spiritual self, to aspire to overpass earth and her limitations. As he grows more and more inward, his boundaries mental, vital, and spiritual begin to broaden, the bonds that held life, mind, soul to their first limitations loosen or snap, and man the mental being begins to have a glimpse of a larger kingdom of self and world closed to the first earth-life.”

4. Sri Ramana Maharshi:

 

“The Self is known to everyone but not clearly. The Being is the Self. “I am” is the name of God. Of all the definitions of God, none is indeed so well put as the Biblical statement I AM THAT I AM. The Absolute Being is what is – It is the Self. It is God. Knowing the Self, God is known. In fact, God is none other than the Self.”

 

Again, these are expressions of humans who have experienced something that Transcendent Love, and is found regardless of religion. The effects of this are life transforming, by the way, not just for a moment like you suggested.

 

Will you continue to say that they can’t or don’t experience God the way a Christian can? One more example:

 

5. Meister Eckhart:

 

“For in this break-through I discover that I and God are one. There I am what I was, and I grow neither smaller nor bigger, for I am an immovable cause that moves all things.

 

Therefore also I am unborn, and following the way of my unborn being I can never die. Following the way of my unborn being I have always been, I am now, and shall remain eternally.”

 

Now I repeat. A Christian cannot experience the Love of the Transcendent God described above so long as they are Christians. They will always be outside of that because their beliefs are in error.

 

 

 

 

 

.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, let me ask this question Larry and End? The spirit in you, how does it feel to hear someone dismissing your experience of God on the basis of being or not being a member of this group or that group? Of not being a Buddhist or some other religion?

 

This is you to us.

 

You ask what have you not answered? The Truth of the Heart. What says your heart? I'll tell you mine, and it embraces you in that Light, regardless of how your mind holds it. It is fully yours as it is mine. I believe you experience it, and in all descriptions, it is not different. I have experienced it as a Christian, and as a non-Christian.

 

And End, in no way can it be said I am against Christ. Whatever he expresses as a sign, that of the Divine, I embrace. How can you not know this, if you listen with your heart instead of the head and theologies of interpretation?

 

A bad tree cannot bear good fruits. By their fruits you shall know them. Either you accept Christ in others, in whatever form that takes, or you reject it in them. But you cannot deny it. Who is against "Christ", End? Who is against God in others???? Not I my friend. It's the Christian who sees it in others and denies it on the basis of their beliefs. To me, this that 'Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". To call that Love in others, the Antichrist.

 

"By their doctrines you shall know them?"

 

True or false?

 

 

AM,

 

Allow me to ask you this, by what knowledge to you base your experiences off of? What Has God spoken to you that would indicate truth?

 

With all due respect, don't tell me I listen to more to the head than I do the heart. Ridiculous. I look more for a balance between the two, isn't that looking at all levels of self? Isn't that what you and others here have asked me to do?

 

I do find it funny, however, that you declare that Christians who hold to their beliefs cannot experience the Transcendant love of God because of their beliefs. So you would suggest that there is a single truth out there that must be believed upon in order to be accepted? Hmmm, that almost sounds like the theology of Christ... only difference is you don't accept Christ as God.

 

 

Let me say it again: Know Christ...Know truth; No Christ... NO TRUTH.

 

Let me know when you want to experience the fullness of God, Jesus will always accept you back in His fold when you are ready to repent.

 

 

Peace, Love, and Soul

 

Larry

 

 

P.S. - This discussion will never come to a happy median between us. You claim everything but the truth of Christ and I claim nothing but. So where does that leave us?

[Antlerman]

I made a comment a little while ago in our discussion in reference to what we see in not hearing the spirit of what is speaking in our words to those who hold fast to the truths of the religious system for them that, “The mind is not ready for the heart.” I think there is a great deal there that merits looking more deeply into.

 

Why is it that we hear in some, in some Christians in this case, a heart that feels what we feel, that aspires to what we aspire, that embraces what we embrace, that hopes for what we hope, that expresses the Heart of the Divine, the way we express it, that we can see it in them, but they cannot see it in us? Is it any less in them, because we see it as Universal and they do not? No, I don’t believe that’s so. It is as meaningful to them, as it is to us. But the difference is in how it is applied. It is still the same Love, but understood by the mind, by consciousness in a different way.

 

This is story of the struggle of the mind and Spirit.

 

We are more than just beings of exterior surfaces; of chemicals, and bones, molecules, blood, and brain. We have interior spaces where our ideas and thoughts and languages form connections of our individual sense of self with the exterior world that we interact with, and it with us on the inside. In addition, that reality of signs and symbols and perceptions, and interpretations that create the world of reality to our reasoning minds, interacts with other minds and other interpretations of reality in a social space that is also ours. We interact with their space from the world inside us, and they interact with our space from their internal world to the world in us. And the exterior world interacts with us, and we interact with the exterior world, in a grand dance of shaping and influencing the very forms of things manifest through the processes of evolution built into the fabric of the manifest Universe itself.

 

And in this all, is a pull upward. The material world moves progressively higher through stages of growth, stages of increasing complexities. Each stage interacts within its sphere of known reality. To the atom, the world is protons and neutrons and electrons, to the cell the world is hemoglobin and molecules, to the body the world is food and energy balance and mobility, to the mind the world is perception and though and interaction. And each stage higher incorporates the earlier stage into itself, yet not longer functions actively, consciously as it were, on those lower stages. It is aware of them, but it is not the world of their reality. And those lower stages, though part of those stages above it, are not aware of that new emergent reality above, yet what happens at those higher levels influences the lower levels, and affects their very sphere of reality through influence. Likewise, the lower levels in their sphere of interactions, can affect the higher levels through influence.

 

In the world of development of us as conscious beings, we grow in our awareness of the environment in various stages of thought, of interpreted perceptions. We create a symbolic world. At first we are unable to distinguish the natural world from our individuality. We are part of the environment. Then we see the world as outside us, but interacts with us magically: the shadow follows us; the clouds watch down on us, etc. Then we see it as connected to others, externally. Others can affect the world we are in. Mom and Dad are god-like beings who can make all the troubles disappear because they hold that magic power. Then we grow to see that we can affect the world, and that we are part of the world. Then we grow to see that the whole world is interconnected and we all are part of a grand process of influence and significance. Then we grow to see that….

 

The exact same thing is true to our evolution as a species. We move in our interactions with the natural world as a people, through magical thinking, then mythical thinking, then global thinking, etc. Our interpretation of reality through systems of thought and symbols individually, extends to us socially, culturally. But the group evolution moves as a lumbering entity compared to the bubbling activity of individuals comprising the group. Within the group various individuals may hit heights of development that shoot up above the average pace. And in those, the influence of the ‘higher levels’ extends downward into the lower levels, influencing in a pull upward.

 

Is a picture emerging yet?

 

At the heart of all this, in all levels is a common Essence. At all points it is present. It is Existence. It is Spirit. It is Being. And all forms, all manifestations of matter, of life, and of mind, express its Nature, as it moves relentlessly ever upward towards Itself in ever emerging stages of awareness of Itself until it merges into Itself, and all forms, all Expression becomes ONE in ONE from ONE into All. In each stage is the fullness of Spirit, yet the perception, the understanding of it is in a state of emergence into greater and greater awareness. From the atom, to the planet, to the sponge, the worm, the spider, the ant, the monkey, the human, all interacts and influences, as it moves forward in a Dance of being into greater awareness of Itself in Form, in Expression in All.

 

And in the human, is the development of our own consciousness as a species within this. Awareness of Being is present at every stage of our development, of our evolution. At each stage we put a face on it. We see it as part of the environment we are part of; we see it as something outside but that we command through thoughts and actions; we see it as controlled by outside entities, gods and supernatural beings; we see it as part of an interconnected whole; we see it as beyond all and transcendent, etc.

 

At each of these stages we create languages to talk about it, to relate to it at that stage, at that level, within the sphere of reality created by perception, interpretation, and language. But, again, at the heart of that, is the connective Essence of Being. That Essence from the simplest most basic form, to the highest most complex, most inclusive form, plumbing ever greater depths of that Essence into its own awareness, its own consciousness, is ever present yet know in different lights and in various forms; from the blade of grass, to the Resurrected Christ, to the Infinite God.

 

So where are we in this dialog? Or more the greater question that this is part of, is where are we at our stage of growth, our evolution, that this dialog is itself both an expression of and a part of that process?

 

“What we are, that only can we see.”

 

As above, at each stage there, there is a horizontal reality – a world that perceives and interprets the universe at that level. It has a system of ‘understanding’ that defines reality, what is and is not allowed, what fits what doesn’t, all supported through an interpretation of “truth” for that reality. For the human, our language – the symbols we attach to our interpretation of our environment, creates the framework for that reality to us. It becomes ‘truth’ for us. It is our factual world, whether we relate to it materially or existentially. And understanding of reality at a higher level, and higher stage of development, is incomprehensible to a previous level. It is foreign. It is incompatible. It doesn’t fit its truth.

 

The world of the molecule is ‘incorrect’ to the world of the atom, even though the atom is part of that higher world, that world of increased complexity. It cannot translate that reality into its own functioning reality. The world of the mythical world is foreign to the world of magic. The world of magic places its connection to the environment through its activities of direct mystical influence, whereas the world of myth creates external supernatural forces that we must appeal to in order to affect influence on the environment. That way of thinking is incompatible with the world seen on a magical level. It is foreign, out of context, incompatible with that reality. Likewise, in a world of Reason, of formal logic, is out of place with a world comprised of mythical beings who govern and control the environment.

 

At each point of evolving to a higher level of consciousness about the World; from the archaic stage of being part of the environment itself; to the magical stage of being separate but connected magically; to the mythical, being separate yet supernatural beings control it, to the rational where we are separate yet can directly control it ourselves, is a point of emergence. We break free from an earlier stage to a new level of reality for us. And each other those transitions is fraught with pain, and an often violent breaking free, born out of necessity, and as I believe, that constant pull of Spirit towards itself in the Evolution of all manifest form into Self, into the ONE.

 

Yet, if there is insufficient ground laid, that emergence will await the means in which it can emergence into higher being. And that brings this to that quote from the philosopher Sri Aurobindo I have just begun reading:

 

“But the right goal of human progress must be always an effective and synthetic reinterpretation by which the law of that wider existence may be represented in a new order of truths and in a more just and puissant working of the faculties on the life-material of the universe.

 

For the senses, the sun goes round the earth; that was for them the centre of existence and the motions of life are arranged on the basis of a misconception. The truth is the very opposite, but its discovery would have been of little use if there were not a science that makes the new conception the centre of a reasoned and ordered knowledge putting their right values on the perceptions of the senses. So also for the mental consciousness God moves round the personal ego and all His works and ways are brought to the judgment of our egoistic sensations, emotions and conceptions and are yet useful and practically sufficient in a certain development of human life and progress.

 

They are a rough practical systematization of our experience of things valid so long as we dwell in a certain order of ideas and activities. But they do not represent the last and highest state of human life and knowledge. “Truth is the path and not the falsehood.” The truth is not that God moves round the ego as the centre of existence and can be judged by the ego and its view of the dualities, but that the Divine is itself the centre and that the experience of the individual only finds its own true truth when it is known in the terms of the universal and the transcendent.

 

Nevertheless, to substitute this conception for the egoistic without an adequate base of knowledge may lead to the substitution of new but still false and arbitrary ideas for the old and bring about a violent instead of a settled disorder of right values. Such a disorder often marks the inception of new philosophies and religions and initiates useful revolutions. But the true goal is only reached when we can group round the right central conception a reasoned and effective knowledge in which the egoistic life shall rediscover all its values transformed and corrected. Then we shall possess that new order of truths which will make it possible for us to substitute a more divine life for the existence which we now lead and to effectualize a more divine and puissant use of our faculties on the life-material of the universe.“

 

[The Life Divine, pgs 58,59]

 

As we encounter those of the mythic system: the supernatural interpretation, the externalization of Spirit and the natural world into supernatural symbols of Divinity, external beings in control of our realities, as they see those beyond myth speak of the Divine in pluralistic, in global, or even further, into Transcendent reality beyond reason and all form into communion with the Pure Essence of Divine Godhead, we hear an inability to comprehend that reality outside the reality of its own world of signs and symbols. It is as incompatible and incomprehensible to truth as the world of the molecule is to the world of the atom.

 

Yet, there is hope, in my faith at least. There is that voice that I believe exists and is heard at the conscious level, of common Essence, of Unity, of the interconnection of all manifestation. Languages are interpretations, translations, of our perceptions of the world. They are representations of our conceptions of truth, of our ideals, of our aspirations and desires for peace. But beyond all the symbols is that Unity of our being.

 

As we allow ourselves to move beyond these arguments of definitions of reality suited to our convenience of horizontal participation in our worldspace, to a vertical view to the Source of that which binds all together into Itself, then we find that Essence of our natures, of our Spiritual Self, in the Whole, and with all other individual expressions of that Divine.

 

The myth systems express the Divine; as do the magic systems; as does the archaic world; as does the rational world; as does this global, pluralistic world; as does the transcendent, and so on. For those who see the world as mythical, it is a matter of mental compatibility of symbols and language to all the mind to process what the heart hears. The mind does not have an adequate basis on which to rest with the heart, and the heart holds pattern in anticipation of the emergence of mind into greater revelation of the Soul.

 

And it is in this that I see the role of the mystic, the Saviors, so to speak, the figures who as individuals touch that face of the Divine beyond all levels of symbols and languages, and forms. It is through this that the influence at the highest of levels, the ONENESS, affects our lower levels with its Light to pull us towards Itself. From ‘above’ to below, to our ‘salvation’ from the world of form, of dualities, to Unity in ONE.

 

As I read the texts of religious expression, I hear not a voice of ‘this and no other truth’, but of aspiration of Spirit to Light. No fact can exist in a mind that has a heart half Realized. Our Truth, our Reality is realized in mind and heart, and not horizontally in what we can touch and measure and test and prove, but in a yet unrealized potential of evolution in the all-encompassing reality of manifest Existence, of manifest Being.

 

I hear voices of religious figures extending levels upon levels above and beyond the levels of mythic thought, and beyond truth understood through reason and rationality to the Light of Spirit to the mind and soul of the World and the Individual. To clutch tightly to this perception as the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega, whether it’s the mythic interpretation of the Divine as supernatural beings affecting our world, or the rational interpretation of the material world as the sum of all reality, is to lose that ever evolving, every vibrant Essence of existence in ourselves and all manifest reality. “We know not what we shall become, but we know that when He appears we shall be like him”.

 

These are all mythical interpretations, and even rational interpretations of the Divine, and none can or should ever hold us to an understanding that refuses the Light of Spirit to move us towards that Source within ourselves.

 

 

FWIW….

[MultifariousBirdLady]

AM is using the term Christ being non-specific to Jesus....in quotes "Christ"....it's as simple as that.

 

What I wrote about my experience is specific as I said, to Jesus, the Cross, the Crucifiction.

 

Christianity is specific to Jesus being the Christ, not everyone's God being "Christ".

 

If I were to propose that the Divine-beyond-human-comprehension-of-which-we-can-only-glimpse-a-sliver which appears as Christ in Christianity to you also can also appear as, say, Helios to myself and some ancient guy named Julian, what specific objections to this would you have?

 

I am not sure what is objectionable to you in the idea that someone can have a mystical experience of Christ in a Christian context but doubt that this being is the same as the historical Jesus. If someone's experience of Christ in a Christian context is identical to their experience of the Divine in another context, what does that say to you? Or do you not accept that this does happen? I guess that's where I'm puzzled about your position.

[Rev R]

I do find it funny, however, that you declare that Christians who hold to their beliefs cannot experience the Transcendant love of God because of their beliefs. So you would suggest that there is a single truth out there that must be believed upon in order to be accepted? Hmmm, that almost sounds like the theology of Christ... only difference is you don't accept Christ as God.

 

So being that it's a mirror of you, how does it feel?

 

This discussion will never come to a happy median between us.

 

The reason for that is simple and you said it yourself:

Know Christ...Know truth; No Christ... NO TRUTH.

 

It is this exclusionary mentality that poisons this discussion.

[Antlerman]

 

So, let me ask this question Larry and End? The spirit in you, how does it feel to hear someone dismissing your experience of God on the basis of being or not being a member of this group or that group? Of not being a Buddhist or some other religion?

 

This is you to us.

 

You ask what have you not answered? The Truth of the Heart. What says your heart? I'll tell you mine, and it embraces you in that Light, regardless of how your mind holds it. It is fully yours as it is mine. I believe you experience it, and in all descriptions, it is not different. I have experienced it as a Christian, and as a non-Christian.

 

And End, in no way can it be said I am against Christ. Whatever he expresses as a sign, that of the Divine, I embrace. How can you not know this, if you listen with your heart instead of the head and theologies of interpretation?

 

A bad tree cannot bear good fruits. By their fruits you shall know them. Either you accept Christ in others, in whatever form that takes, or you reject it in them. But you cannot deny it. Who is against "Christ", End? Who is against God in others???? Not I my friend. It's the Christian who sees it in others and denies it on the basis of their beliefs. To me, this that 'Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit". To call that Love in others, the Antichrist.

 

"By their doctrines you shall know them?"

 

True or false?

 

 

AM,

 

Allow me to ask you this, by what knowledge to you base your experiences off of? What Has God spoken to you that would indicate truth?

I strive to harmonize the knowledge of the heart with the knowledge of the mind. The knowledge of the heart is found in quite listening, without the distractions of mental processing of thoughts in all their various activities of symbols and signs and meanings they try to impart to it. In hearing the truth inside without all that, comes an awareness of the center of our being beyond all that clutter of the world. The path to that space of quite can be found in many ways, through music, ritual, nature, prayer, guided meditation, etc. It is a truth in itself that cannot be imparted, apprehended through teachings and books and the mind's thoughts. It is knowledge by direct experience, in a space of Self beyond rational thought.

 

Then as we go into our daily lives we are bombarded with information we need to process mentally in order to interact as biological beings, physically, mentally, and socially. The goal is to take that information and process it in the best ways possible, with the best tools of mind to discern the accuracy of that information, its trustworthiness, in order to best function and interact within that space. Science and its discoveries are powerful tools and information for us to frame an understanding of the world in order to interact with it.

 

The key to a grounded and healthy life as a rational and spiritual being is to find harmony between mind and spirit. I based my experiences, both spiritually and rationally, in a world that balances them through inner sincerity. If I have for whatever reason deny evidence that shows a belief I hold to be partital or even in error, and find myself fighting against it in order to maintain that belief, then it should serve as a warning flag of some instability with my spiritual self. That truth we experience directly, as we take it and reflect upon it mentally, is processed by the mind with its systems of symbols and signs in order for us to 'think' about it and talk about it, to create our various frameworks of understanding which to interact with it.

 

What I see happen within myself, and certainly with those of strong religious affiliations who rail against discoveries and evidences that challenge our 'beliefs' (frameworks of understanding), is that we are using those beliefs, not as tools of understanding, but as the basis of the experience itself! To challenge those beliefs, is to threaten our very spirit because we have replaced "God" with our thoughts about God. Other indicators likewise will show that instablity, such as those things which are not the fruits of the spirit, like anxiety, fear, anger, lust, hatred, etc. Our center in spirit has shifted to our ego. In finding that center, we find the source of spirit in which to ground ourselves in the ever-changing worldspace of our physical being confronted with unimaginable amounts of information.

 

The source of my experience is through Will guided by sincerity, embracing both the spiritual and the rational world of science and reason. You will never find me denying the age of the earth in favor of my reading of Genesis. That is substituting a belief for God. That is a static religion, not Spirit.

 

With all due respect, don't tell me I listen to more to the head than I do the heart. Ridiculous. I look more for a balance between the two, isn't that looking at all levels of self? Isn't that what you and others here have asked me to do?

Outside your theology, setting that mental framework aside, what does your heart tell you?

 

I do find it funny, however, that you declare that Christians who hold to their beliefs cannot experience the Transcendant love of God because of their beliefs. So you would suggest that there is a single truth out there that must be believed upon in order to be accepted? Hmmm, that almost sounds like the theology of Christ... only difference is you don't accept Christ as God.

Did that upset you? Did it cause a pain in your sense of Spirit within?

 

I'm sort of glad you didn't see what I thought I had made clear in my saying that. That it was to switch hats for the point of making a point. I did however clearly say that I do embrace your experience of the Divine in that post. I don't share your rejection of others based on an interpretation of texts as part of some belief system. I know what my heart says, and therefore I cannot reject you.

 

Unfortunately, you feel its necessary for me to adopt the symbols of that language about the Divine in order to access the Divine. You make that belief God, and deny God to those that don't accept that belief. Belief is a symbolic framework of understanding in order to relate to an interact with something beyond itself. Don't make that belief, your belief, God.

 

Let me say it again: Know Christ...Know truth; No Christ... NO TRUTH.

You mean Christ, or your beliefs about Christ?

 

Let me know when you want to experience the fullness of God, Jesus will always accept you back in His fold when you are ready to repent.

Repent of what? My understanding of the nature of language and mythic systems, and go back and embrace that way of perceiving and interacting with the world? Repent of maturing spiritually, and bearing deeper and true fruits of the Sprit witin my life in favor of an earlier matrix for me?

 

Is that more important to you than this which I realize now? And if so, is that about God, or affirming your belief structure for you? I'm going to quote the Rev's story here as point of illustration:

"A Christian visited a Zen Master and said, “Allow me to read you the Sermon on the Mount.”

 

“I shall listen with pleasure,” said the Master.

 

The Christian read a sentence and looked up. The Master smiled and said, “Whoever said those words was truly an Enlightened Man.”

 

This pleased the Christian. He read on. The Master interrupted and said, “Those words come from a Saviour of mankind.”

 

The Christian was delighted. He read on to the end. The Master then declared, “That sermon was pronounced by someone radiant with Divinity.”

 

The Christian’s joy was boundless. He left, determined to return another day and persuade the Master to become a Christian. On the way back home he found Jesus standing by the roadside. “Lord,” he said excitedly, “I got that man to confess you are divine!”

 

Jesus smiled and said, “And did it do you any good except inflate your Christian ego?”

 

 

Peace, Love, and Soul

 

Larry

Indeed, I will embrace this with you as you can with others.

[oddbird1963]

Let me know when you want to experience the fullness of God, Jesus will always accept you back in His fold when you are ready to repent.

 

Larry,

 

You still don't realize, or just won't listen. We already are experiencing this "fullness." We just apply different labels to it. A different set of symbols have been found useful in moving us into that experience of fullness.

 

Like I said, if your experience of one of the varieties of Christianity works for you and brings you joy, peace and fulfillment, then that is wonderful. I hope that what you have is as joyful, life-affirming and transforming as what I have.

 

Sincerely,

 

Scott

[Guest end3]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

[Ouroboros]

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

That's a strange question. Since I don't have a relationship with an imaginary friend, I have nothing to give up. But if I was in a relationship with the eternal omniscient and omnipresent being, who exists beyond comprehension and limitations of our existence, then you'd have to look like Angelina Jolie. Otherwise it wouldn't be worth it.

[Antlerman]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

I would give up how I thought about God if it resulted in division and grief of the Spirit. Say.. that is what I did.

[oddbird1963]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

 

 

I really think you need to provide some context for this discussion.

 

There is no God in the sense of a personal, separate entity which exists in three persons. So to begin with, there is no relationship to give up.

 

 

It sounds like you are hinting towards some form of Christology that tells of Christ giving up his relationship with the father for mankind. Remember, the symbols that energize and motivate you towards unity with your conception of god may not mean the same to someone outside that symbolic system. You might need to explain more of what you are getting at.

[Guest end3]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

 

 

I really think you need to provide some context for this discussion.

 

There is no God in the sense of a personal, separate entity which exists in three persons. So to begin with, there is no relationship to give up.

 

 

It sounds like you are hinting towards some form of Christology that tells of Christ giving up his relationship with the father for mankind. Remember, the symbols that energize and motivate you towards unity with your conception of god may not mean the same to someone outside that symbolic system. You might need to explain more of what you are getting at.

 

No, see, y'all just said God is God, and that Larry and I are interpreting incorrectly through a religious framework....a pointer. Don't sidestep the question.

[Shyone]

I have a question for everyone in the discussion:

 

Would you give up your relationship with God for me or Larry?

Consider it done. I also forfeit my rights to the crown and the kingship of the United States.

 

Or am I supposed to choose between you and Larry? That's a bit toughter.