Guest r3alchild Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 First off, let me say thank you to Antlerman for inviting me to this discussion. I am always intrigued by the opinions of others so that I can better understand how people feel. There is a lot to discuss here, but I guess what I want to focus on is Antlerman's initial question: what do I mean by the "Love of Jesus". Plain and simple what I meant was to ask the question, "How could a person who has claimed to experience God's love turn away from it?" I have been a devoted Christian for 9 years and my experience of God's love has only gotten deeper and better. To have a person who has experienced that love to only leave it is mind-boggling to me and thus the thrust of my comment. But you raise some other things that I would like to discuss: "What is that, if not an expression of human experience? And if that of human experience, something we all share - as humans, then how is it that someone within the religious system is unable to 'see' what exists in other humans as well as them? What is it exactly that they see that gives them the impression we don't experience, or know, or 'see' all these things ourselves, and value them at least as well? Is it solely the use of words, or is their something of real, practice substance?" I would agree that the Love of Jesus, or what is meant by it, is a expression of human experience; however, as you would expect, this expression is not something humans can create. Now, I will be the first to admit that I see tons of people, who do not believe, who are genuinely loving and caring people. I have many friends who don't believe in Christ and they are people who share the same values as I do. So, at the least, I would suggest that the Love of Christ is not something that is shown in our higher morals or values; it is only something that we experience from God. You go on by saying this: "How is it that one person's not tying this to a symbolic figure "Jesus" means that they don't share the same truth? And of greater importance, how is it that the one who claims an embrace of truth by holding up a religious symbol, "Jesus", in this case, is unable to see it in others? How is it that because they hear someone challenge or dismiss the system of religious mythologies of gods and sacrifices of appeasement, that they leap to the conclusion that we don't know the nature of love?" Whether or not you believe in Jesus is the measuring stick of what I see as truth. If you don't believe in Jesus, how can you believe in the truth that He teaches? My truth (or I see it everyone's truth) cannot be truth without Jesus Christ at the center. It's not that I don't think non-Christians are unable to know the nature of love, I just think (and don't be offended) that you cannot experience the fullness of that nature without the truth of Jesus Christ. I hope this is a good start to what i hope to be a wonderful conversation. Thanks for the invite, I hope to hear from you soon. Peace, Love, and Soul Larry D Vinson P.S. Anterlman, anytime you want to get in person and talk of this, please look me up @ FOrest Lake Christian Church (or email @ larry@myflcc.com) When I was reading your post, I started feeling a strong sense of love in my heart. Now I have felt this before, but mostly while I was a christian. Now I wonder, I know this experience is real and I only felt it reading your posts out of the many. But should I take it that god is reaching out to me with your post. Or is this a by product of key words and auto suggestive ideas that have been implanted in my mind to induce this experience. I am not upset in any way I get the same thing with my mormon friend and I know we all know mormonisim is not true. This experience of love devine, is the turning point to alot of christian conversions. Its the holy spirit entering the hearts and converting the sinner and if they can maintain it, then it inforces there beliefes. But the problem is maintaing it. But most christians get the idea that the spirit of god is inducing this feeling love. But its not, its the persons inner reaction to a projected idea. Like falling in love with someone. A reaction because you are feeling love and projected because you think that they love you too. I believe that when you say you have a deep love for god, you do. But all that means is that you love god, not that god is more real because you love him. I am starting to think that love is not what god is about if he exsits. If he does not exsit then I dont think this universe is all about love. Granted love is a nessesity to all of us but is it the suppreme truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Chrisstavrous, I too, have experienced spontaneous feelings of love for no reason at all. The really strange thing is that it always came at times when, given my spiritual condition and beliefs, I should have been experiencing damning feelings. For me, this is evidence that these feelings are psychological (or hormonal or whatever, based in the physical body) and not spiritual--they are not connected to God or Holy Spirit. There is other evidence for this, too, such as certain drugs (pharmaceutical prescriptions or otherwise) or electrical stimulation to the brain. I've encountered the Christian argument that God uses this natural means to contact his children. I don't buy that. The Holy Spirit and God are supposed to be separate entities outside the human brain, not just another part of the brain communicating with itself. We're talking about little understood phenomenon here but there is a beginning of natural insight and understanding of how it works. And it seems we don't need God to explain it. That's how it looks to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 If the feeling of love can be induced under certain conditions, then someone who is ignorant of these feelings being natual and of the inner emotion could be conditioned to believe these experiences are from a outside source. This is as I believe the ace in the religions hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 If the feeling of love can be induced under certain conditions, then someone who is ignorant of these feelings being natual and of the inner emotion could be conditioned to believe these experiences are from a outside source. This is as I believe the ace in the religions hand. Key word 'induced" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 If the feeling of love can be induced under certain conditions, then someone who is ignorant of these feelings being natual and of the inner emotion could be conditioned to believe these experiences are from a outside source. This is as I believe the ace in the religions hand. Key word 'induced" End, are you saying God did it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just saying induced implies a relationship of some type....i.e. "outside". Not saying God necessarily, just found it a thoughtless statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just saying induced implies a relationship of some type....i.e. "outside". Not saying God necessarily, just found it a thoughtless statement. Yes, a relationship between human beings. A church on sunday mornings is filled with human beings. They sing. They do rituals. They all talk about somebody as if he is real even though they can neither see nor hear him. The relationship is between real people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just saying induced implies a relationship of some type....i.e. "outside". Not saying God necessarily, just found it a thoughtless statement. I think I see what your saying, I have spent the last 13 years of my life in a illogical mind set about everything, due to christianity. I can say with confedence that I am learning to express my thoughts as clear as possible and working out what being logical is. But its not easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raoul Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just saying induced implies a relationship of some type....i.e. "outside". Not saying God necessarily, just found it a thoughtless statement. Perhaps it should be 'self-induced'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Let me ask this question, and please excuse my attitude, at it was not directed at any of you, (it just is). Is the measure of a man a fuction of the internal or a fuction of what has been applied to man via the external. And then, in our later years, it is our acceptance of what has been applied via the external... so you tell me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 it's early, spelling error "function".....althought I often feel as though I have been fuctioned....thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 For example, the beer that I drink has a "born on date". Regardless of the fact that it is made of "starstuff" per Sagan, the reality is configuration/manifestation of the beer is of the starstuff. So what I hear you saying is that love is inherent to the configuration of the starstuff and that the starstuff has essentially no role in that endeavor. The potential for love has to be FIRST in the starstuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 Love is either an emotion caused by chemicals found in a mammal brain or a code of conduct. I'm not sure what you mean by "measure of a man" nor internal/external. Beer has a born on date because the chemistry will deteriorate. The atoms themselves will remain but in a different chemical form. Stardust has the potential to take many forms, including mammals that can feel emotions. I don't see how this is special. As for the Bible verses, humans have learned a great deal about fetal development. We know that a fetus knits itself together in a womb and it's not designed particularly well. We can take photos, vids and sonograms. We can test the DNA. It certainly doesn't happen underground. If anything related to you in the past had happened differently then you wouldn't exist right now. Oh, perhaps your genetic brother or sister would have been born in your place but they would not have been you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 I have to repost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest r3alchild Posted March 2, 2013 Share Posted March 2, 2013 Just saying induced implies a relationship of some type....i.e. "outside". Not saying God necessarily, just found it a thoughtless statement. Perhaps it should be 'self-induced'... No its induced because it can come from an outside source and yes self induced because it can be self induced. But the experience itself is completly internal. The experience does not come for anyone else or anything else, unless you believe in telepathy or empaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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