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Goodbye Jesus

Continued Discussion Rayskidude On Spong


Neon Genesis

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I'm curious to see what Ray thinks of the Q gospel.

I haven't read Spong or Erhman (so my speculation is largely based on ignorance), but I can't see any way to have both the commonalities of the gospels and the differences other that some document that was circulated early with less information than the gospels.

 

The gospel writers had some literary freedom in writing their gospels, but less so with certain aspects of those gospels. It would seem almost trivial to reconstruct "Q" from the things in common.

 

I suppose it's possible Q was oral, but I doubt it. There may have been an oral tradition, but before the gospels, there was a written something - list of sayings, or brief outlines and acts of Jesus, but obviously not sufficiently well written to "qualify" as a gospel. Hence, the rewrites/edits.

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New Age? I think you need to educate yourself on some early Theologians which were mystics.

 

Please point me to an early Christian theologian who spouted New Age thoughts.

What? You are claiming that Mysticism and New Age are the same?

 

Clement of Alexandria

Origen

Evagrius Ponticus

John Cassian

Augustine of Hippo

Gregory of Nyssa

Psuedo-Dionysus (Theologia Mystica)

Hildegard of Bingen

Richard of St Victor

Bernard of Clairvaux

Meister Eckhart

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Oh yeah, BS decries that the Bible is mean to women & homosexuals. I have posted elsewhere that the Bible highly regards women - and compare the treatment of women in Christian lands to any and all others. And compare the women who followed Jesus to other movements - no sexual playthings here!

Do you believe that when a husband merely suspects his wife of adultery that she should be taken to a priest and undergo a trial by ordeal to determine if she's guilty?

That's the law of God and I'd like to know why you think this procedure highly regards women.

Do you agree that giving birth to a female baby makes women more unclean than giving birth to a male baby?

If God disapproves of sexual playthings, where was David condemned for having them?

 

BS alludes to Paul Erlich & all that Population Bomb nonsense. Where is the evidence? After 40 years - Erlich's predictions are proven to be fatuous.

Technology may have delayed the manifestation of the prediction.

So you don't believe there can ever be too many people in relation to the available resources needed to support them?

After 1,900+ years, the prediction of Jesus to return has proven to be fatuous, but I don't imagine that it stops you from claiming it's still going to happen.

 

God is on His throne accomplishing His purposes for His glory and our good. Are we clear on that?

Well, that’s the kind of unproved assertion that makes lots of money for those that peddle it as reality.

That’s also the central theme of many new age teachings.

The difference being that instead of a male, tribal, warrior God being given the credit for all this perfection and good, the credit is assigned to a universal Oneself.

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The apocrypha and the Gnostics, Docetism. Need details?

 

I don't need details - I need a real answer.

 

Apocrypha - not claimed as inspired by God by the Jews or evangelical Christians of any era. Claimed only the the RCC in the 15th century after they needed some verses to justify indulgences and purgatory.

 

Gnostics and Docetists?? Surely you jest! Just read the New Testament - both these heresies are roundly condemned - but especially in the epistles of Peter and John.

 

But - this is really a joke, isn't it. Gnosticism and Docetism as Christian - who put you up to this? What is Neon? Or bdp? Oh, I know - it was notblinded.

 

You guys are the best.

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You guys are the best.

Yes we are.

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rayskidude asks - When the USA bombed Japan, or Germany, or Afghanistan- you pick it - were/are we as a nation guilty of murdering innocent babies? Even children in the womb? If so, what should be a just punishment for each American for such an atrocity that we have participated in?

 

Can you please answer this question honestly - because then we can go on from here to answer your question about how and why God dealt with Egypt and other nations as He did.

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But - this is really a joke, isn't it. Gnosticism and Docetism as Christian - who put you up to this? What is Neon? Or bdp? Oh, I know - it was notblinded.

 

You guys are the best.

Are you serious!? Do you not consider these Christian heresies to be Christian?

 

Your question is circular if you only accept bible thumping people who adhere only to mainstream doctrines (whatever those are these days) as Christians.

 

The Christian mystics were charged with heresy and treated accordingly. Sometimes with death.

 

"The [Gnostic] writers of these manuscripts [at Nag Hammadi] considered themselves ‘Christians’."

 

"In Christianity, Docetism (from the Greek δοκέω [dokeō], "to seem") is the belief that Jesus' physical body was an illusion."

 

There are probably a lot of Christians that don't consider you Christian, and you them. I can't convince you that people that disagree with you are Christian, but I didn't expect you to pull that No True Scotsman card out.

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Does Origen count as a true Christian, Ray?

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Back to BS. He says the Flood couldn't have happened because of the height of Mt Everest. You know, I have to laugh when I read such nonsense. Where does the Bible say that Mt Everest existed before the Flood? But in fact, the Bible states that 4 generations from Noah, Peleg was born - whose name means something like "earthquake" - and Gen 10:25 says in his days the earth was divided. Some Biblical scholars see this as the split (Heb = palag) or breakup of Pangaea into Gondwana and Laurasia - and then later into the continents as we now have them.

 

Let me get this straight. You think there were people alive at the time of the flood, right? That is what the Bible says. How does that square with the scientific fact that there were no people alive at the time of the breakup of Pangaea?

200 million years ago there were no people. 70 million years ago when what is now India collided with Asia to form the Himalayan mountains there were no people.

 

Let me say - it's obvious that I do not agree with your timescale. I believe in the Biblical timescale. So, people were here on planet Earth during the break-up of Pangaea and the formation of the Himalayas - as stated in Genesis.

 

The geological record is full of examples of catastrophism - as portrayed in Scripture; and there are a number of geological "anomalies" which are inexplicable by the currently accepted timescales.

 

Geological "anomalies", Ray?

 

Like this? http://thevibe.socialvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/arizona-grand-canyon-vista.jpg Where the nice, neat layered deposits indicate that these rock strata were rapidly and catastrophically laid down by the waters of the global Genesis Flood?

 

Or this? http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/mro20091215.html Where the nice, neat layered deposits indicate that these rock strata were rapidly and catastrophically laid down by the waters of the global Genesis Flood... ...ON MARS!!!

 

So Mars is 6,000 years old too, just like good ole Earth? R-i-i-i-g-h-t!

 

BAA.

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Never try and teach a pig to dance. It does no good and annoys the pig.

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The apocrypha and the Gnostics, Docetism. Need details?

 

I don't need details - I need a real answer.

 

Apocrypha - not claimed as inspired by God by the Jews or evangelical Christians of any era. Claimed only the the RCC in the 15th century after they needed some verses to justify indulgences and purgatory.

 

Gnostics and Docetists?? Surely you jest! Just read the New Testament - both these heresies are roundly condemned - but especially in the epistles of Peter and John.

 

But - this is really a joke, isn't it. Gnosticism and Docetism as Christian - who put you up to this? What is Neon? Or bdp? Oh, I know - it was notblinded.

 

You guys are the best.

Quit playing ignorant. What you have is what won out by force and persuasion. It has nothing to do with what is true. It also has nothing to do with what Christianity was or might have been. The truth is bigger than your story. But, you can remain in your egg your entire life if you wish.

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rayskidude asks - When the USA bombed Japan, or Germany, or Afghanistan- you pick it - were/are we as a nation guilty of murdering innocent babies? Even children in the womb? If so, what should be a just punishment for each American for such an atrocity that we have participated in?

 

Can you please answer this question honestly - because then we can go on from here to answer your question about how and why God dealt with Egypt and other nations as He did.

I personally didn't participate in any atrocities. I don't believe in group punishment either.

 

Now, tell me how it is right that your idol of God chooses to punish innocents. You are disgusting if you think that millions of people should be killed because of the acts of the government or of a few people.

 

Should Israel just wipe out all Palestinians or vise-versa? Should we just go over and level Afghanistan?

 

And, once again, we are talking about human behavior here and you are wanting to say what God would do based on human behavior. This is an idol of God, not God.

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Does Origen count as a true Christian, Ray?

Oh...of course not Neon. Origen thought like this:

 

As Origen explains, the soul of Christ was no different from that of any of the souls that fell away from God, for Christ's soul possessed the same potential for communion with God as that of all other souls. What distinguished the soul of Christ from all others - and what preserved Him from falling away - was His supreme act of free choice, to remain immersed in the divinity.

 

...

 

The restoration of all beings (apokatastasis) is the most important concept in Origen's philosophy, and the touchstone by which he judges all other theories. His concept of universal restoration is based on equally strong Scriptural and Hellenistic philosophical grounds and is not original, as it can be traced back to Heraclitus, who stated that "the beginning and end are common" (Fragment B 103, tr. J. Barnes 1987, p. 115). Considering that Origen's later opponents based their charges of heresy largely on this aspect of his teaching, it is surprising to see how well-grounded in scripture this doctrine really is. Origen's main biblical proof-text is 1 Corinthians 15:25-28, especially verse 28, which speaks of the time "when all things shall be subdued unto him [Christ], then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all" (KJV, my emphasis). This scriptural notion of God being "all in all" (panta en pasin) is a strong theological support for his theory of apokatastasis. There are, of course, numerous other passages in scripture that contradict this notion, but we must remember that Origen's strength resided in his philosophical ability to use reason and dialectic in support of humane doctrines, not in the ability to use scripture in support of dogmatical and anti-humanistic arguments. Origen imagined salvation not in terms of the saved rejoicing in heaven and the damned suffering in hell, but as a reunion of all souls with God.

Origen of Alexandria (185 - 254 A.D.)

 

Well, we just can't have that. The bible can't mean that! The bible can't be humane! God isn't humane!:Doh:

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Never try and teach a pig to dance. It does no good and annoys the pig.

 

 

Like this, Par4?

(Hey! C'mon, this is the Lion's Den, after all!)

 

 

 

More geological anomalies for you, Ray!

 

This time, not in or on the Earth. Nope. This time the anomalies are in the mining and drilling companies that actually get the product out of the ground. I mean, surely they should be using Young Earth Creationist geology, because what is true works and what is false doesn't, right? Anyway, could you answer these questions, please?

 

1. Perhaps you can tell us why these guys (listed below) aren't using YEC models of geology to prospect for and find the gas, oil and minerals that originated in the Flood catastrophe, just a few thousand years ago?

2. Why aren't they using YEC models of rapid oil formation (less than ten thousand years, not tens of millions of years) to calculate their oil field reserves?

3. Why do they keep on using obviously wrong and untrue concepts like Plate Tectonics and Radioisotope Dating to accurately predict where to mine and drill, when YEC methods would make them more money?

4. Why is it that the Muslim Fundamentalist government of Iran uses atheistic science to run their oil industry when they should be using what the Qur'an tells them is true about geology?

5. Is it morally (that is, Biblically) acceptable for a YEC Fundamentalist to be employed by any mining or drilling company that doesn't use YEC geology?

6. Is it morally (that is, Biblically) acceptable for a YEC Fundamentalist to hold shares in any mining or drilling company that doesn't use YEC geology?

7. Is it morally (that is, Biblically) acceptable for a YEC Fundamentalist to use any product or service provided by any mining or drilling company that doesn't use YEC geology?

8. If you found out that the oil and gas you use every day was sourced from companies that did not abide by the governing principles of Young Earth geology, would you switch to companies that did?

9. Assuming your answer to 8 is Yes, can you please provide a link to any company that does use Young Earth geology to source it's product?

10. If your answer to 8 is No, please say why not, citing the appropriate Biblical references to justify your potentially hypocritical position.

 

To help you out with your answers Ray, here's some useful links.

http://www.miningnerds.com

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_petroleum_companies

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Global_list_of_coal_mining_companies_and_agencies

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

 

 

p.s.

 

Actually, I do have one proper geological anomaly for you Ray. The crushed and carbonized corpse of...

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Randall_Truman

 

Maybe the scientists at the USGS do know what they're doing by NOT using YEC geology to warn about impending eruptions and such like!

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  • 3 weeks later...

By the way, whatever happened to Ray? I haven't seen him posting in awhile.

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rayskidude asks - When the USA bombed Japan, or Germany, or Afghanistan- you pick it - were/are we as a nation guilty of murdering innocent babies? Even children in the womb? If so, what should be a just punishment for each American for such an atrocity that we have participated in?

 

Can you please answer this question honestly - because then we can go on from here to answer your question about how and why God dealt with Egypt and other nations as He did.

 

Honestly, International relationships are very grey areas, because they are simultaneously constituted of Individuals that have varying levels of culpability and they follow the will of only the most powerful citizens.

 

For example, The American oil companies execs that wanted to control Asian oil for the west. Their actions in trying to prevent Japanese access to oil was a major factor in Japan's entrance to the Axis forces, as far as Americans go, they at least had a little bit more culpable than the average Joe. Any enemy spys in the U.S. that did anything to prolong the war had more culpability than the average Jane. President Truman Could have demonstrated to the Japanese the awesome power of the A-bomb on a less civilian populated area, he could have chosen a military target, But really America didn't have a magic button like god supposedly does. If Truman had a choice of A-bombs or magic "carebears" that would win the hearts and minds of the Japanese, and he used the Bombs, the he would have been a major Asshole. He didn't have that choice. He was trying to protect his people, even at the expense of the Japanese innocents.

 

So, If we were god, yes we are damned murderers, if we are human, no then it was global self defense.

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Does Origen count as a true Christian, Ray?

 

You know, got to admit - sometimes I just wonder. Based on both his hermeneutic and some aspects of his life.

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By the way, whatever happened to Ray? I haven't seen him posting in awhile.

 

Sorry - I have been out-of-town; and I'm having trouble posting - keep gettin error messages.

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More geological anomalies for you, Ray! This time the anomalies are in the mining and drilling companies that actually get the product out of the ground. I mean, surely they should be using Young Earth Creationist geology, because what is true works and what is false doesn't, right? Anyway, could you answer these questions, please?

 

2. Why aren't they using YEC models of rapid oil formation (less than ten thousand years, not tens of millions of years) to calculate their oil field reserves?

 

How would using a YEC model differ in these particular calculations? And isn't it anomalous that with what we know about the high pressure of the oil reserves and the porosity of the surrounding rock, that there are still available oil reserves that haven't completely penetrated the rock formation after millions of years?

 

3. Why do they keep on using obviously wrong and untrue concepts like Plate Tectonics and Radioisotope Dating to accurately predict where to mine and drill, when YEC methods would make them more money?

 

The Bible speaks of plate tectonics (Gen 10:25) and YEC scientists have always held to radiometric dating - so long as pre-suppositions about initial conditions are valid.

 

5. Is it morally (that is, Biblically) acceptable for a YEC Fundamentalist to be employed by any mining or drilling company that doesn't use YEC geology?

 

Yes

 

6. Is it morally (that is, Biblically) acceptable for a YEC Fundamentalist to hold shares in any mining or drilling company that doesn't use YEC geology?

 

Yes

 

7. Is it morally (that is, Biblically) acceptable for a YEC Fundamentalist to use any product or service provided by any mining or drilling company that doesn't use YEC geology?

 

Yes

 

8. If you found out that the oil and gas you use every day was sourced from companies that did not abide by the governing principles of Young Earth geology, would you switch to companies that did?

 

No - and I'm wondering about why you're asking such questions. Christians understand that we live in a pluralistic world, with a number of differing worldviews. We seek to live in society (be in the world, but not of it - as Jesus instructs) so that we would be salt & light re: the Gospel of salvation thru Jesus Christ - and that our lives would adorn this Gospel.

 

10. If your answer to 8 is No, please say why not, citing the appropriate Biblical references to justify your potentially hypocritical position.

 

You need to explain this 'hyprocrisy' that you detect - because I would adamantly disagree.

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

 

p.s.

 

Maybe the scientists at the USGS do know what they're doing by NOT using YEC geology to warn about impending eruptions and such like!

 

BTW - how do you explain the deep crevices formed around Mt St Helens in just a few years? Doesn't uniformitarian geology say that such deep gorges require millions of years to from?

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First things first, Ray!

 

Geological "anomalies", Ray?

Like this? http://thevibe.socialvibe.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/arizona-grand-canyon-vista.jpg Where the nice, neat layered deposits indicate that these rock strata were rapidly and catastrophically laid down by the waters of the global Genesis Flood?

Or this? http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/mro20091215.html Where the nice, neat layered deposits indicate that these rock strata were rapidly and catastrophically laid down by the waters of the global Genesis Flood... ...ON MARS!!!

So Mars is 6,000 years old too, just like good ole Earth? R-i-i-i-g-h-t!

BAA.

 

Was there a global Flood on Mars that rapidly and catastrophically laid down these nice, neat layered deposits of rock strata? If you compare like-with-like, there seems to have been.

 

BAA.

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I totally missed this thread. I do need to stop by here more often.

 

Job is obviously an historical account

 

No Job is not historical and it is obviously NOT historical. I think you take the Bible way too literally.

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That's what he said. I just hit the quote button. I guess people missed that one? I think he was complaining about Spong calling various stories in the Bile mythical/not historical. I can't believe no one else saw that one or even commented on it. Where do people get these ideas that the stories are historical? They are midrash and rewritten mythology. Geeze! All too many Xians don't get this.

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But - this is really a joke, isn't it. Gnosticism and Docetism as Christian - who put you up to this? What is Neon? Or bdp?

 

god, ray, you ARE a dumbass. I barely communicate with anyone here, and I certainly don't goad anyone or coach them about what to post. Independent thought is a lovely thing, you should look into it.

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It's OK. BDP, You can let him know that you are part of the EX-C Borg. :twitch:

 

 

I always wondered what these wires coming out the back of my head were for..

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