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Goodbye Jesus

Is This Calculated Violence Biblically Sound?


bornagainathiest

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Hello.

 

From time to time I visit Christianforums.com to see what's new there. In the sub-forum dedicated to discussions between Christian Fundamentalists I found this...

 

http://www.christianforums.com/t7427963/

 

I don't know which is more shocking.

That a Senior member (WebersHome) has taken the time to sit down and calculate the number, type and severity of punishments that he believes should be meted out to sinners before they are consigned to eternal hellfire.

Or the casual, "Oh well" shrug from SkyWriting about the ultimate fate of unborn and newborn children on Judgement Day.

 

Anyway, I'm curious. Is this orgy of bloodthirsty retribution really theologically sound? Any thoughts, opinions, etc.?

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

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Hello.

 

From time to time I visit Christianforums.com to see what's new there. In the sub-forum dedicated to discussions between Christian Fundamentalists I found this...

 

http://www.christianforums.com/t7427963/

 

I don't know which is more shocking.

That a Senior member (WebersHome) has taken the time to sit down and calculate the number, type and severity of punishments that he believes should be meted out to sinners before they are consigned to eternal hellfire.

Or the casual, "Oh well" shrug from SkyWriting about the ultimate fate of unborn and newborn children on Judgement Day.

 

Anyway, I'm curious. Is this orgy of bloodthirsty retribution really theologically sound? Any thoughts, opinions, etc.?

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

It's all fantasy and wishful thinking. Punishment, if not administered while they are alive, is never administered because the conscious entity no longer exists (and neither does the consciousness).

 

But that would violate Karma!

 

It reminds me of a line from Gladiator: "I will have my vengeance - in this life or the next!" I can't help but think he'd better get busy.

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Hello.

 

From time to time I visit Christianforums.com to see what's new there. In the sub-forum dedicated to discussions between Christian Fundamentalists I found this...

 

http://www.christianforums.com/t7427963/

 

I don't know which is more shocking.

That a Senior member (WebersHome) has taken the time to sit down and calculate the number, type and severity of punishments that he believes should be meted out to sinners before they are consigned to eternal hellfire.

Or the casual, "Oh well" shrug from SkyWriting about the ultimate fate of unborn and newborn children on Judgement Day.

 

Anyway, I'm curious. Is this orgy of bloodthirsty retribution really theologically sound? Any thoughts, opinions, etc.?

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

I grew up in a hardline Lutheran church that said unbaptized babies that die went to hell to be tormented. You see, there is this concept of original sin. Every human is born into sin and that's that. The bible is filled with bloodthirsty stories and orders perpetrated or ordered by the Christian god. It almost makes on want to puke at the amount of barbarity and evil Jesus and pals commit.

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Skywriting quotes one of the most ridiculous verses in the Bible:

 

For since the creation of the worldGod's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--havebeen clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so thatmen are without excuse.

 

How someone can derive a saving knowledge of Christ from looking at nature is completely beyond me.:shrug: Yet they "have no excuse".

 

Yes, there is Bibilical basis for different levels of punishment, but I am afraid that it says a lot about the character of people who would discuss this "logically" and in such a casual way.

 

 

 

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How someone can derive a saving knowledge of Christ from looking at nature is completely beyond me.:shrug: Yet they "have no excuse".

I know.

 

If nature somehow points to a God, then it points to nature being an intricate part of God, i.e. pantheism or panentheism.

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Hello.

 

From time to time I visit Christianforums.com to see what's new there. In the sub-forum dedicated to discussions between Christian Fundamentalists I found this...

 

http://www.christianforums.com/t7427963/

 

I don't know which is more shocking.

That a Senior member (WebersHome) has taken the time to sit down and calculate the number, type and severity of punishments that he believes should be meted out to sinners before they are consigned to eternal hellfire.

Or the casual, "Oh well" shrug from SkyWriting about the ultimate fate of unborn and newborn children on Judgement Day.

 

Anyway, I'm curious. Is this orgy of bloodthirsty retribution really theologically sound? Any thoughts, opinions, etc.?

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

 

Romans 3: 10 - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one

 

23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

 

Revelation 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

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What does 'theologically sound' mean? These people believe demons whisper in their ears and that jesus watches them masturbate. Is anything a stretch for them?

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I have to admit I felt sick reading Webers Home's posting. There is no sense in it at all, no logic for that sort of horrific scene he describes. Jesus did not suffer nearly a quarter of that pain and yet his suffering was good enough for everyone's sins? Also if he really believes that I am having an even harder time understanding their arguments against abortion. I'd abort this 7 month old developed fetus if I really thought that this would happen to them if allowed to live long enough to commit any sins.

 

Sick, sick, sick. Is there an empathy lobotomy that is performed at some of these churches or are these people just born monsters?

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I couldn't get through the mentioned post. Christians are twisted, it seems.

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I would say both yes, and no. Yes bible god is brutal enough to do all that crap according to the bible, but no, as far as I know their is no basis in the bible for people getting lashes before being thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity (why you would need to be punished to even things up prior to being sentenced to an eternity of agony is beyond me). To the best of my knowledge the scenario this guy made up is entirely in his head, from the number of lashes to everything else, furthermore the fact that he's given this scenario enough thought down to the detail of a person's flesh being flayed, and him being broken, death, and dumb suggests to me that this person is either a fucking sadist, or scare shitless of God, or both

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I would say at least 50% of the Christians who hang out Christianforums either have brain damage or some form of mental illness.

 

When you can't function in life without constantly referring to 2000 year old mythology written by bronze-age goat herders for guidance, it's time to check yourself into the nearest mental hospital for multiple electroshock therapy treatments. And possibly also a lobotomy. :crazy:

 

Cuckoo, cuckoo! :crazy:

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It seems that for some believers, in order for a God to be truly "powerful", he must actively carry out the most gratuitous favours as well as the most insane and ruthless punishments. A study in extremes; and the more extremist a believer is, the more "extreme" their God becomes. I've seen this thing before; you can almost use it as a measuring stick to see just how-far-gone a believer or a fundy is.

 

 

There is a theory that most Christians who believe that these are the "last days" have a burning contempt for humanity; and a quiet rage about the fact they can't "make people be good and believe like them".

 

Fuck, religion is so childish. I just get more and more turned off even respecting this shit day by day.

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It seems that for some believers, in order for a God to be truly "powerful", he must actively carry out the most gratuitous favours as well as the most insane and ruthless punishments. A study in extremes; and the more extremist a believer is, the more "extreme" their God becomes. I've seen this thing before; you can almost use it as a measuring stick to see just how-far-gone a believer or a fundy is.

 

 

There is a theory that most Christians who believe that these are the "last days" have a burning contempt for humanity; and a quiet rage about the fact they can't "make people be good and believe like them".

 

Fuck, religion is so childish. I just get more and more turned off even respecting this shit day by day.

I just had an interesting idea. Make up your own punishments and post them there.

 

Why confine punishment to "lashes" or burning? How about some imaginative punishments that involve genital mutilation, like slicing the penis off of the condemned 0.5 centimeters (must be exact) at a time at intervals of 20 seconds? Lengthen the penis to 12 inches to make the agony last longer... Include females, but give them a foot long penis prior to punishment.

 

I could give other examples, but you might have a better idea of what would grasp them by the nuts and pierce their testicles with a rusty nail.

 

Figuratively speaking.

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It seems that for some believers, in order for a God to be truly "powerful", he must actively carry out the most gratuitous favours as well as the most insane and ruthless punishments. A study in extremes; and the more extremist a believer is, the more "extreme" their God becomes. I've seen this thing before; you can almost use it as a measuring stick to see just how-far-gone a believer or a fundy is.

 

 

There is a theory that most Christians who believe that these are the "last days" have a burning contempt for humanity; and a quiet rage about the fact they can't "make people be good and believe like them".

 

Fuck, religion is so childish. I just get more and more turned off even respecting this shit day by day.

I just had an interesting idea. Make up your own punishments and post them there.

 

Why confine punishment to "lashes" or burning? How about some imaginative punishments that involve genital mutilation, like slicing the penis off of the condemned 0.5 centimeters (must be exact) at a time at intervals of 20 seconds? Lengthen the penis to 12 inches to make the agony last longer... Include females, but give them a foot long penis prior to punishment.

 

I could give other examples, but you might have a better idea of what would grasp them by the nuts and pierce their testicles with a rusty nail.

 

Figuratively speaking.

 

Didn't the catholic church already come up with and implement them?

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What does 'theologically sound' mean? These people believe demons whisper in their ears and that jesus watches them masturbate. Is anything a stretch for them?

 

Hello Vigile.

 

I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. What I was getting as was this.

 

WebersHome's all-too-graphic descriptions of what he thinks sinners deserve chilled me to the marrow. I'd never heard of this kind of Judgement Day torture (pain inflicted by others) of the damned before they end up in the lake of fire. Torment (self-inflicted pain) from a guilty conscience - yes. But, torture - no. So I was throwing the topic open to see if anyone else here had any kind of insight into this mindset. Not because they shared in it but because they might have encountered it before. If so, what were the Biblical/theological justifications for this torturefest? So far, the consensus of opinion seems to be 'none at all'.

 

Big surprise there, huh?

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

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What does 'theologically sound' mean? These people believe demons whisper in their ears and that jesus watches them masturbate. Is anything a stretch for them?

 

Hello Vigile.

 

I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. What I was getting as was this.

 

WebersHome's all-too-graphic descriptions of what he thinks sinners deserve chilled me to the marrow. I'd never heard of this kind of Judgement Day torture (pain inflicted by others) of the damned before they end up in the lake of fire. Torment (self-inflicted pain) from a guilty conscience - yes. But, torture - no. So I was throwing the topic open to see if anyone else here had any kind of insight into this mindset. Not because they shared in it but because they might have encountered it before. If so, what were the Biblical/theological justifications for this torturefest? So far, the consensus of opinion seems to be 'none at all'.

 

Big surprise there, huh?

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

 

Really? His position isn't any more chilling than the standard christian position, you know, eternal torment. The only thing which makes him more chilling is the fact that he's obviously actually considered some of what this means. The only thing which isn't biblically sound is his particular torturefest, here are verses detailing how Jesus and the holy angels will watch the unbeliever's torment, I personally like to think that they will be touching themselves while doing so.

Revelation 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, shouting, “Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand 10 must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

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Yee-owch!! It's almost too painful to watch the 'Levels of Hellish Torture' thread develop, over at Christianforums!

 

However, I do have a number of comments to make about it.

 

Firstly, I note that of the Fundies who're contributing to that thread, it's the newbie WHY9999 (with just 54 postings to his name) who's come out with any kind of criticism of the bloodthirsty content. Meanwhile, those who (in theory!) should be calling for restraint, aren't. Specifically, I'm referring to Hentenza (Angels Team Site Advisor, 19,332 postings) and DeaconDean (11,977 postings). Ok, Hentenza has pointed out the difference between torture and torment, but it seems very telling that neither he nor Dean have actively disagreed with or criticized WebersHome for his ravings. Not so much a case of being damned by faint praise as being damned by faint criticism. More like agreement and complicity, if you ask me!

 

Secondly, in my debates and discussions with different shades of Christian apologists, one regular feature in their replies has been to play the Atheists-practice-genocide card against me. You know the score. Nazi concentration camps, the Soviet gulags and the killing fields of Cambodia. They're all a result of atheism. Godlessness devalues human life and leads to genocide in the name of one atheist ideology or another. Usually I've turned it right round and pointed to the O.T. genocide practiced by the Israelites, under orders from God. Well, from now on I reckon I'll also refer them to this 'Levels of Torture' thread. See how christian ideology can be used to justify levels of cruelty that are infinitely worse than anything humans can do?

 

Finally and leading on from the above point about genocide, I'd like to mention my personal take on the notion of justified torture.

The Nazis justified what they did in the name of racial purity. The Soviets and the Khmer Rouge justified themselves with Left-wing ideology. It seems to me that the catch-all excuse torturers use to justify themselves is whatever cause they happen to believe in. Fascism, Marxism, Fundamentalist Christianity. It's all the same. The torturers are always there in any society, but their threat remains latent until a suitable 'cause' comes along and upends civilized behavior. Then all hell gets let loose. WebersHome would probably be the first to volunteer his services, but I do wonder if the likes of Hentenza, DeaconDean and SkyWriting would be active in their condemnation of 'justified' torture if it were to happen here and now, not on the Day of Judgement?

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

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Ok, Hentenza has pointed out the difference between torture and torment, but it seems very telling that neither he nor Dean have actively disagreed with or criticized WebersHome for his ravings. Not so much a case of being damned by faint praise as being damned by faint criticism. More like agreement and complicity, if you ask me!

 

What's the difference? The fact that being sentenced to an eternity of fiery torment is infinitely worse than any finite number of lashes? What the fuck?

 

Secondly, in my debates and discussions with different shades of Christian apologists, one regular feature in their replies has been to play the Atheists-practice-genocide card against me. You know the score. Nazi concentration camps,

 

You could also mention that Hitler was a creationist, and the fact that the Nazi's never used the likes of Darwin to justify and indoctrinate, they did however use Martin Luther and his work "the Jews and their Lies" which said amongst other things "we are at fault in not slaying them."

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Bornagainatheist, this is one of the things that convinces me that fundies would burn heretics such as atheists and agnostics at the stake today if only they had the legal and political power to do so.

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It seems that for some believers, in order for a God to be truly "powerful", he must actively carry out the most gratuitous favours as well as the most insane and ruthless punishments. A study in extremes; and the more extremist a believer is, the more "extreme" their God becomes. I've seen this thing before; you can almost use it as a measuring stick to see just how-far-gone a believer or a fundy is.

 

 

There is a theory that most Christians who believe that these are the "last days" have a burning contempt for humanity; and a quiet rage about the fact they can't "make people be good and believe like them".

 

Fuck, religion is so childish. I just get more and more turned off even respecting this shit day by day.

I just had an interesting idea. Make up your own punishments and post them there.

 

Why confine punishment to "lashes" or burning? How about some imaginative punishments that involve genital mutilation, like slicing the penis off of the condemned 0.5 centimeters (must be exact) at a time at intervals of 20 seconds? Lengthen the penis to 12 inches to make the agony last longer... Include females, but give them a foot long penis prior to punishment.

 

I could give other examples, but you might have a better idea of what would grasp them by the nuts and pierce their testicles with a rusty nail.

 

Figuratively speaking.

 

Because the penis is so sacred. The vagina, not so much so.

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Bornagainatheist, this is one of the things that convinces me that fundies would burn heretics such as atheists and agnostics at the stake today if only they had the legal and political power to do so.

 

 

While a bit of an extreme statement, I don't believe that fundies understand nor care about the religious atrocities of the middle ages, most notably the persecutions, witch burnings, Inquisitions, and other sanctions brought against people who behaved or believed "differently". There's a kind of tuning out on their part whenever I or anyone else might bring this stuff up. Some of my Catholic friends, however liberal about it, somehow think there is a complete "disconnect" between the elements of belief and doctrine that lead to these kinds of things.

 

For instance, the RC prohibits the use of condoms or birth control for AIDS stricken Africans; and yet disown responsibility for the obvious effects of that policy. If you want to make a Pope-loving Catholic mad, just bring that little tidbit up.

 

"Indirect genocide by proclamation" is what I call it.

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Bornagainatheist, this is one of the things that convinces me that fundies would burn heretics such as atheists and agnostics at the stake today if only they had the legal and political power to do so.

And yet any time one tries to bring up the atrocities of the faithful (Hebrews in the Bible, Christians there after) they claim "times were different then". It's almost always that excuse. They seem to forget those were the times when the church had real power and could act as they wished "for the glory of god". It's no different than the Middle East and Islam. Islam is welded to the governments and atrocities and barbarity happen in the name of Allah frequently. No reason at all to think the Christians wouldn't behave in a similiar barbaric fashion for their god if given the chance once again.

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Guest I Love Dog

I would say at least 50% of the Christians who hang out Christianforums either have brain damage or some form of mental illness.

 

When you can't function in life without constantly referring to 2000 year old mythology written by bronze-age goat herders for guidance, it's time to check yourself into the nearest mental hospital for multiple electroshock therapy treatments. And possibly also a lobotomy. :crazy:

 

Cuckoo, cuckoo! :crazy:

 

Love it! Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

Whoever connected the Christian god with love and caring must have had a brain the size of a pea!

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