Beating Myself Up = Repentance

[Max]

I'm really glad I became an atheist, and I'm quite well adjusted at this point, but there's one piece of xtain mind control that I just can't cast off. I can't stop beating myself up.

 

I've had this problem since I was a child, and I really blame the church. They taught that you had to "repent" for your sins. This repentance had to be really sincere and deep, it wasn't good enough to just shrug your sins off. If you weren't sincere enough, you wouldn't be forgiven, and you'd go to hell. So what does this mean? Well, seems to me that it means you need to make sure you feel really, really bad about your "sin." So that's what I learned to do as a little kid. Really drag out all of my misdeeds and mistakes, and really make sure I felt really, really, really bad about them. I was very good at this. I spent many of my childhood days (from the age of 5 or so) wracked with guilt, desperate to avoid the hellfire.

 

So this became a habit that I can't break, even though I know it's totally irrational. Every mistake becomes a gut-churning experience. I'm paralized as I await the retribution that I'm sure must be coming. I'm just not capable of saying, "Everyone makes mistakes. I'll try to not let it happen again." I've tried counseling to no avail.

 

I know my response is irrational, but I just can't make it go away. That's why I think it's become a habit - something that just automatically happens.

 

Has anybody else experienced this? Did anything make it go away?

[Shyone]

 

So this became a habit that I can't break, even though I know it's totally irrational. Every mistake becomes a gut-churning experience. I'm paralized as I await the retribution that I'm sure must be coming. I'm just not capable of saying, "Everyone makes mistakes. I'll try to not let it happen again." I've tried counseling to no avail.

 

I know my response is irrational, but I just can't make it go away. That's why I think it's become a habit - something that just automatically happens.

 

Has anybody else experienced this? Did anything make it go away?

The phenomenon is not irrational, but in your case it seems to have become obsessive. There is a difference. A man who is obsessive will double, triple and quadruple check to see if he turned off the coffee pot (to avoid the possibility of a ruined pot or even fire). This is rational the first time, but somewhere around the second or third time it becomes obsessive.

 

Guilt and remorse are human emotions and responses to situations where we know we need to correct a behavior - especially one that hurts others, but it is also a drive to improve. A drive to become perfect is beyond normal.

 

Only you can devise a solution that will work for you. Talking with others really does well for me because it externalizes the conflict in my mind. I may have been rude to someone, so I discuss it with my wife. Her feelings about my conflict make me put my own guilt into perspective.

 

I only still suffer when I have an internal conflict that I can't really talk about. Severe guilt about things in the distant past that I cannot change, and they still cause me chest pain (non-cardiac).

[Franko47]

Try not to dwell on it too much, Max, when this kind of thing happens. Sometimes feelings of wanting to persecute yourself are deflections even from wanting to get mad or blame another person when something goes wrong, or you err, or lose your temper, etc.

 

Remind yourself that your a good person but life puts a lot of emotional and mental pressures on us sometimes. There's always something I do in a given day that later on I kind of think was "uncalled for" or maybe kind of "wrong". If it's not too serious or whatever, I just push it aside.

 

Tomorrow is another day.

[HRDWarrior]

Well, I have a bit of a perfectionist streak, and combine that with my mother's treatment of me growing up (well, and to this day) where nothing was ever good enough, praise ALWAYS came with a "but..." and even first place needed work; add in the crazy fundy christian crap, and yes, I still struggle with mentally beating myself up over stuff, often little stuff that I really don't care about but seem to think I should.

 

The most effective thing I've found thus far is whenever I start to engage in this is simply to remind myself that it was not important, and that everyone else has probably moved on, and realize that I can as well. Reminding myself (often many times over a few days) of just how minor the situation in question really was has helped, and I've gotten better at not fretting and mentally attacking myself for as long at least. Venting also is very helpful, even online - I'm sure there are times my hubby has gotten sick of it, so I turn to online just to get it off my chest. Voicing my frustration (at the situation and even at my reaction to the situation) can be useful.

 

I've yet to hear of a sure fire way to fix it though, but I have seen improvement over the past few years especially.

[TedGresham]

 

So this became a habit that I can't break, even though I know it's totally irrational. Every mistake becomes a gut-churning experience. I'm paralized as I await the retribution that I'm sure must be coming. I'm just not capable of saying, "Everyone makes mistakes. I'll try to not let it happen again." I've tried counseling to no avail.

 

I know my response is irrational, but I just can't make it go away. That's why I think it's become a habit - something that just automatically happens.

 

Has anybody else experienced this? Did anything make it go away?

The phenomenon is not irrational, but in your case it seems to have become obsessive. There is a difference. A man who is obsessive will double, triple and quadruple check to see if he turned off the coffee pot (to avoid the possibility of a ruined pot or even fire). This is rational the first time, but somewhere around the second or third time it becomes obsessive.

 

Guilt and remorse are human emotions and responses to situations where we know we need to correct a behavior - especially one that hurts others, but it is also a drive to improve. A drive to become perfect is beyond normal. ...

 

 

First of all, the two tools used by the church to keep people inside are guilt and fear. Sometimes one or the other is more effective, sometimes they both are. But it is this pair of emotions that keeps Christianity from falling apart.

 

Of course nobody will ever admit to such, not even at the highest levels. That is because Christianity is an ancient practice and the elements of guilt and fear have been ingrained within the teaching for so long they seem a natural part of human existence.

 

If we are mere biological beings, objects of evolution, there is no reason for either except for self-preservation and survival of our species. Maybe that is true. I personally think there's more to the story but have no idea what it is.

 

Guilt and fear are also used by many parents to keep children in line. Christian parents have a ready-made source of authority from which to inflict them. My mom was very good at it, too. Look how long it took me to get out from under her constant indoctrination. I did not really cut loose until after I spent the last month of her life with her and watched her pass on. I am encouraged by younger folks who break out before they're too old for it to matter much, like me. Anyway, I understand your guilt.

 

I could say study Buddha's teaching and this would be good advise. There are moral standards there, very similar to Christian standards, but from an entirely different perspective. I do not believe mankind is "good" or "bad." We just are who we are. There are good and bad people when evaluated in the way they treat others or live their lives. I do not believe Christianity's insistence that humans are "born in sin" is true. It's a stupid idea. But the idea we're all "good" does not wash with me either. From serial killers in the news to the people who abused our children before they were adopted, some people are NOT "good." The thing is, though, the people who we would consider bad, those who kill and harm and mistreat others, they do not have a conscience. In other words, they do not suffer from your malady, they are neither fearful nor guilty. Think about that.

 

You've had a severe sense of guilt and fear inflicted upon you but the fact that you CAN feel such emotions, though too strong at the moment, indicate that you are a moral person, a person with the ability to be good. Now, go back to the idea that we are the product of evolutionary biology. Because you are able to feel guilt, remorse, or fear for doing the "wrong" thing you should not worry about doing the wrong thing. Thus your guilt is misplaced. Does that make sense? Your sense of self worth and ability might still be in shambles because of your previous indoctrination but the fact is you have an innate ability to "do the right thing" without feeling such guilt. Let it go and let your conscience lead you. Study teaching, such as Buddha's, that reveal the value of a certain way of life without inflicting guilt for your not doing one or the other thing. This is the best advice I can give. Be glad you can feel guilty but do not let it rule your life.

 

I say this because my children, the biological product of amoral and abusive people, do not appear to have a conscience. I have studied the subject of abused children, of course, that lengthy abuse causes kids to be amoral, but I disagree at least in part. Our little children were far too young for them to have much in the way of memory. Even so they do not seem to have a conscience. They do not have a sense of remorse. Neither do they have a sense of fear for their actions. As parents we have never drilled guilt or shame into them as it was done to us. We have tried to teach them love and respect and they feel those without doubt but they do not have guilt. This is not good. Feeling guilt and remorse is not bad. They provide safe direction. Just recognize them as tools of our psyche and not the voice of god in our head.

 

Or something like that... what yall think?

[godlessgrrl]

Has anybody else experienced this?

 

Yes. In giant trainloads of it, over and over again. Not from religion, but from a perfectionist mother.

 

Though religion made it worse, because not only did I have to be perfect for my mom then, I also had to be perfect for god too.

 

Somehow god was always easier to please. Funny how that worked...

 

Did anything make it go away?

 

Not really. I just work around it these days.

 

On good days I can harness my perfectionism and realize that it makes me a lot more diligent about doing things well than might otherwise be true. The few things at which I truly kick ass, I do truly kick ass at them, yea verily, because of said perfectionism.

 

On bad days the sins and errors of my life come crashing down on me all at once. I find myself cringing at tiny little things I did or said as long ago as preschool, for fuck's sake. On those days I hole up in my house, avoid everything and everybody, and tend to drink too much.

 

I've spent a lot of time and energy trying to make the perfectionism go away, and have finally figured out it isn't going to, and I don't really care to spend one minute more of my life on something as futile as eliminating it. So I just live with it.

 

Mostly it's okay.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

I had as a kid a real OCD streak with the whole idea of blaspheming the holy spirit. Well it got to a point where I finally beat it into my head, that either I was going to hell, and there was nothing I can do about it or Im alright. Then it started to go away. Maybe Im wrong, but the idea is similar to perfectionism.

 

Start forcing yourself, to break that need to feel bad.

 

How you go about it is up to you.

[redlemon]

I'm not sure if I have it to the same extreme, but you aren't the only one. I still spend time dwelling on things that are well done and over with.

 

I've talked extensively with my therapist about it. His suggestion was that I put some sort of repentant action in my life when I feel I've wronged in life. It could be as simple as just telling myself that I am sorry or something more complex like righting the wrong as best as I can. Of course, this only really works when it's a wrong thing overall, not a religious wrong. Like, if I lie to someone or steal something or curse in buses full of small children.

 

For religious wrongs, it can be harder and I'm nowhere near getting over it. The only suggestion I have is that every time you feel the guilt, remind yourself why you shouldn't feel guilty. If you can get in the habit of reminding yourself why you shouldn't feel guilty, you can maybe start getting over it.

 

It's a long, long process. Good luck.

[Max]

A man who is obsessive will double, triple and quadruple check to see if he turned off the coffee pot (to avoid the possibility of a ruined pot or even fire). This is rational the first time, but somewhere around the second or third time it becomes obsessive.

 

I do that with my curling iron...

[Max]

First of all, the two tools used by the church to keep people inside are guilt and fear.

 

Amen!!!

[Max]

Thanks to everyone for their comments. Wouldn't this world be a nicer place if people didn't feel the need to put this crap into little kids heads to begin with?

[Shyone]

Thanks to everyone for their comments. Wouldn't this world be a nicer place if people didn't feel the need to put this crap into little kids heads to begin with?

Amen!!!

[Kurari]

No, it's not irrational. It's not even something attributed just to Christianity. It's part of our actual culture and the way people behave towards us. I wasn't raised a Christian but I have had the same exact problem growing up because if I made a mistake, I was going to get viciously abused for not being perfect.

 

It took me a VERY long time to stop those reactions.

 

But, it's still a purveying problem in society. I noticed this recently at work, when I had my employee evaluation. Sometimes I make mistakes at work. It happens. I apologize to my boss for the mistake and then say that I will do things differently in the future. I leave and go fix what I did wrong and try not to do it again. Done deal, right?

 

Interestingly enough, I got hit on my employee evaluation for "not having an attitude of accountability."

 

Apparently that means that I wasn't emotional enough about my mistakes. Because I didn't act properly chagrined and repentant about making a mistake, I got in trouble for my attitude. Which is ridiculous. I'm not sure what's expected? I fall on my knees and sob uncontrollably and say I'm not worthy, please forgive me? Let the spirit of Middle Management into my heart and make me be a better employee?

 

People really don't allow you to make mistakes. You HAVE to get poked, prodded, and burned for it. You HAVE to react a certain way or people will turn on you.

 

I'm sorry that's not very comforting, but think of it this way, if you're aware of it, then you can control it. Remember it's all an act and people really are insane.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I can't stop beating myself up.

 

I've had this problem since I was a child, and I really blame the church. They taught that you had to "repent" for your sins. This repentance had to be really sincere and deep, it wasn't good enough to just shrug your sins off. If you weren't sincere enough, you wouldn't be forgiven, and you'd go to hell. So what does this mean? Well, seems to me that it means you need to make sure you feel really, really bad about your "sin."

 

I'm glad I found this thread. I've been having quite a time with some guilt/shame issues lately and the "beating myself up" part has gotten pretty bad.

 

In the past, I dealt fairly well with these issues by working hard on doing things better next time. It really helped a lot. However, I'm finding that since things from the past that I can't get away from are haunting me a lot lately, the guilt and shame is, too. It's making for a very uncomfortable situation.

 

No, it's not irrational. It's not even something attributed just to Christianity. It's part of our actual culture and the way people behave towards us. I wasn't raised a Christian but I have had the same exact problem growing up because if I made a mistake, I was going to get viciously abused for not being perfect.

<snip>

People really don't allow you to make mistakes. You HAVE to get poked, prodded, and burned for it. You HAVE to react a certain way or people will turn on you.

 

I'm sorry that's not very comforting, but think of it this way, if you're aware of it, then you can control it. Remember it's all an act and people really are insane.

 

Kurari, I am wondering if some of this arose in our culture precisely from the belief that one must be punished for "sins." Even though non-Christians have this same idea, it could still be that the idea itself is a legacy from Christian influence.

[OnceConvinced]

To a certain extent it's true for me. If my actions hurt others, or I understand it could hurt others I will feel bad. Part of that is more my genetic makeup I feel, in that I hate to see people hurt. However if my actions are a victimless crime (eg lust), I no longer feel guilty about that anymore. I realise that I am a product of evolution and because of that have certain instincts. To lust or to envy or to be jealous is just human nature. I think you have to realise that's what it is, then it no longer becomes a problem, you no longer feel bad. However am I going to rape or sexually molest that woman? Of course not, because I still have strong morals and principles. I could never knowingly hurt that woman. Funny when you think about it, because if God is no longer in my life and I have Satan manipulating me, shouldn't I be out raping and using and abusing women?

 

Some Christians claim that if you are feeling that condemned, then it is Satan condemning you not God. However it's obvious that Jesus intended us to have overwhelming guilt when we read:

 

Mat 16:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. (lol as if an eye could cause us to sin - nice one Jesus!)

[dichotomy]

I can relate to this, but I see it even more in my husband. He really beats himself up and goes through deep phases of guilt, it's awful to watch. I am certain it is a product of his experiences in church and his parents who were very fundy when he was young. His sister said it has been notable in him since he was in primary school.

 

I agree that guilt and remorse are needed tools in life but the problem is that it is hard to work out how to balance them and not become either obsessive or shun them completely and therefore not admitting to yourself or accepting when you have *done wrong*. I think because you are aware of this, that is one step forward in itself and there's been some good tips on here as always.

[nightflight]

I'm really glad I became an atheist, and I'm quite well adjusted at this point, but there's one piece of xtain mind control that I just can't cast off. I can't stop beating myself up.

 

I've had this problem since I was a child, and I really blame the church. They taught that you had to "repent" for your sins. This repentance had to be really sincere and deep, it wasn't good enough to just shrug your sins off. If you weren't sincere enough, you wouldn't be forgiven, and you'd go to hell. So what does this mean? Well, seems to me that it means you need to make sure you feel really, really bad about your "sin." So that's what I learned to do as a little kid. Really drag out all of my misdeeds and mistakes, and really make sure I felt really, really, really bad about them. I was very good at this. I spent many of my childhood days (from the age of 5 or so) wracked with guilt, desperate to avoid the hellfire.

 

So this became a habit that I can't break, even though I know it's totally irrational. Every mistake becomes a gut-churning experience. I'm paralized as I await the retribution that I'm sure must be coming. I'm just not capable of saying, "Everyone makes mistakes. I'll try to not let it happen again." I've tried counseling to no avail.

 

I know my response is irrational, but I just can't make it go away. That's why I think it's become a habit - something that just automatically happens.

 

Has anybody else experienced this? Did anything make it go away?

 

I know exactly what you are talking about, I've been experiencing the same for most of my life. We were basically taught that in order to be good, we must feel bad. I think that being exposed to Christianity's fear/guilt conditioning at an early age makes a neurological imprint that's damn near impossible to undo. Its a most hideous manipulation; one that has been called "neurological sabotage".

[MultifariousBirdLady]

When the guilt/shame gets really bad, what are some strategies that people use to deal with it? I'm looking for some specific positive actions to take, here.

 

Occasionally, depending on the issue, self-talk along the lines of, "Well, everyone makes mistakes, I'll know better next time," helps. But often it seems that's not good enough in my case.

 

As mentioned previously, sometimes it has helped to figure out some way to do better the next time (or fix the existing problem, as the case may be), and then channel any gut-wrenching self-deprecation into a firm resolution to do that. Then I attempt to drop the issue and move on.

 

This doesn't always work, either.

 

Any other ideas?

[nightflight]

Two things I think are important for you to do if you want to be free of this. This goes for me too by the way; I've been thinking about it since I read your post, being that my life has been affected by this thing.

 

1. Expand your database.

 

By this I mean that you must seek knowledge that is counter to what you have been taught cough* indoctrinated cough*. Now what you and I and countless others have been taught is that morality comes from, indeed must come from a transcendent being. But science has shown us that there are other explanations for morality. Psychology, biology, sociology and even zoology gives us evidence that moral behavior does not have to come from "gods". We are social creatures; morality is what gives us cohesion, it is a survival mechanism that works. Even animals such as primates and even dogs have been show to exhibit moral behavior. Now at a young age you and I were taught behavior that is acceptable and not; however we were also taught that there is a Super Being in the sky that watches us and will punish us (in the worst way imaginable) for wrong behavior. I really believe that being taught this at a young age makes a powerful imprint on our nervous system, a strong conditioned response. So the first step is to fill your head with ideas and evidence that goes counter to your indoctrination. Expand your database.

 

2. Repetition.

 

Go over the material again and again. Being indoctrinated at a young age probably makes it more difficut to be free of old beliefs, so you have to really hammer in the new information. I know for me that I have to go over material repeatedly before I really get it. I have a short attention span and get discouraged easily, so I need to bring that new information into my consciousness many times before it sinks in and begins to make its own imprint.

 

Remember, the anxiety you experience is a conditioned response. There are however people in this world who don't experience this anxiety because they were never conditioned to do so. That in itself is evidence that the conditioning is just that, conditioning.

[pitchu]

Many good insights and suggestions in this thread.

 

Here's something else you might consider trying.

 

Keep a log. Make four columns on a few pages and fill them as follows.

 

Column One: write a brief description of each incident, action, memory, etc., which makes you feel really really really bad, and the date/time of its occurrence.

 

Column Two: assign a number to its level of egregiousness, with 0 being "Hey, this wasn't actually anything at all to feel bad about" and 10 being the worst kind of thing you can imagine a human being doing.

 

Column Three: assign a number to the depth and intensity of your shame/guilt over the incident, action, memory, etc., with 0 being none whatsoever and 10 being the deepest, most intense reaction of remorse you can imagine a human being having.

 

Column Four: write a brief comment, re: what you think about what you've just put into the first three columns.

 

Every few pages or so, you might write a summary of your thoughts on the whole of the collected entries so far, just to keep track of how you're doin'.

 

In other words, enlighten yourself about what god never let you in on.

 

I wish you well, Max.

[Heathen Monkey]

People really don't allow you to make mistakes. You HAVE to get poked, prodded, and burned for it. You HAVE to react a certain way or people will turn on you.

 

I'm sorry that's not very comforting, but think of it this way, if you're aware of it, then you can control it. Remember it's all an act and people really are insane.

 

I agree. I keep meaning to say, "I don't need a lecture from you" to the next self-righteous drama queen who berates me without cause, but it doesn't happen enough for me to have the presence of mind to do it. I end up walking away wishing I'd said, "You can be assertive without being bitchy" and other such pithy comebacks that probably would've made matters worse.

 

I find that it's healthier to just forgive myself either way. If someone censures me for a mistake, I apologize and then I forgive myself. If someone censures me by mistake, I don't apologize. But I still forgive myself for letting their behavior affect my mood.