Some Critcisms From Fundemantelists That Might Actually Be Valid

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

In my deconversion, I have discovered many things. Some of which I am still wrestling with, but a few things I noticed that led to my lost of faith, that are ironically arguments made by fundies.

 

Evolution leads to atheism. While this isn't always the case, it helped in my case. It helped because of three things. If Adam didn't exist why is he treated as such? When did the soul come into play?

 

Liberal Christianity is a slippery road to unbelief. It was in my case, because I found myself caving to outside influences.

 

Why would a all powerful god, not keep his book straight(read inerrant)?

 

I look forward to commentary from apostates, and faithful alike.

 

Valk

[Saffron]

It may be of interest to some people here, and I was shocked by it as well, that evolution is accepted as fact by the Catholic church and taught in Catholic schools. Now, it's a form of theistic evolution, but evolution none the less, that was even accepted as more than just a theory by the Pope himself. A few Google searches will get you all the info you need on the matter.

 

In any case, I had a similar experience as you. Before I had fully considered deconverting, I had been trying to reconcile my new moral and humanist beliefs as well as obvious rational fact with my dieing religion. This took the form of seeking out things like Progressive Christianity, Liberal Christianity [ United Church of Christ, Unitarian Universalism, etc ] in order to give me a sense that perhaps my new beliefs and my religion really weren't in conflict. I slowly begun to reject the vast majority of the Bible as I researched the subject, and for a while I was content if a bit uneasy about it all. These denominations/sections of Christianity allowed me more freedom to explore my beliefs.

 

Then I realized that I'd gotten to a point where really, all I was clinging to was a skeleton. I didn't believe in or support any of the Christian principles that I'd once held. It was pretty obvious to me at that point that I had a choice to either revert back or take the next step into Agnosticism, which I did. For a while I even attached a Theist to my Agnostic label, but decided to drop that eventually to.

[TedGresham]

In my deconversion, I have discovered many things. Some of which I am still wrestling with, but a few things I noticed that led to my lost of faith, that are ironically arguments made by fundies.

 

Evolution leads to atheism. While this isn't always the case, it helped in my case. It helped because of three things. If Adam didn't exist why is he treated as such? When did the soul come into play?

 

Liberal Christianity is a slippery road to unbelief. It was in my case, because I found myself caving to outside influences.

 

Why would a all powerful god, not keep his book straight(read inerrant)?

 

I look forward to commentary from apostates, and faithful alike.

 

Valk

 

I'm not sure if I'd phrase things the same way. From the religious perspective of a fundamentalist is that you and I have "fallen away" and been corrupted or enticed or "falsely" misled by what you mentioned. From our perspective we woke up to reality.

 

I could reconcile evolution to the progress of life on this earth though I still do not believe it explains the massive differences between humanity and the rest of life on this planet. The Bible was written by ancient and ignorant people, Science is more modern and competent. Faith is understanding and believing without proof so faith allows adjustments in such things without bringing an end to the existence of an eternal god.

 

My drift from Christianity had almost nothing to do with doctrine or even the Bible, though learning the history of how it came to be was a pretty big blow. It was the absolute contradictions of Christian lives that shoved me out the door. I could come to terms with parts of the Bible being figurative and especially so regarding the Jewish/Hebrew texts of the OT. They are not really relevant to Christianity anyway. But people, the obvious reality of people's beliefs vs. actions and attitudes, there anyone with half an open mind can see is a contradiction that proves it's all a lie.

 

By the time I arrived at a point where I could not believe there is a creator god there was nothing left of faith or trust.

 

All the arguments in the world about history, evolution, the Bible's origins, on and on, will never crack the shell of a determined fundamentalist or dedicated believer. There are always roads around such things. My only response as to why I don't believe is that Christianity simply does not "work." Forget evolution, who cares? We are here now. Forget Biblical inerrancy, it contains some truth. Don't even get bogged down on the "truth" of death and resurrection, historical evidence is sufficient for us to believe Jesus existed. But the proof is in the pudding. Does Christianity work? Does prayer work? Does God react the way Christians say? Is prayer ever answered? The answer, of course, is absolutely not.

 

Neither prophecy nor prayer "work." All "evidence" Christians use is circumstantial. But rather than try and convince them the only thing we can do is suggest they consider for themselves. Either they will or they will refuse to. The latter is most likely. They will not risk loosing their world view, even if it means ignoring the truth.

 

So their arguments are not really valid, they only appear valid to them. Or maybe, again, it's not criticism, it's merely an observation. They say such things "cause people to fall." I say they cause people to stand up. They're in the room with the mirrors. We're in the room next door, we can see through the glass. The door that leads out of their room is not evolution or Bible validity or no other thing but choice and courage. The courage to look and the choice to accept. Those and nothing else.

[Shyone]

The title of the thread intrigued me, but I didn't expect the particular way it is presented. I thought the topic would be criticisms of some atheists (and/or their method), or maybe criticisms of atheism from some practical point of view (e.g. atheists don't donate as much).

 

Some "criticisms" are "correct" in these senses, but I think a careful examination would show that "validity" (meaning that the criticisms should entail a change from the atheist or atheism) would not necessarily follow.

 

Criticisms of atheism (and atheists):

 

1. Atheists are rude

Maybe they need to be, and being critical of a being that we don't believe it may seem rude to the theists, but one cannot be rude to something that doesn't exist. We may seem "rude" to Christians (and Muslims, etc.) because we see them as deluded, potentially in danger, and in need of confrontation (about the same way they see us...).

 

2. Atheists use bad arguments

Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes the arguments are spot on, which is why apologetics is so twisted sometimes.

 

3. Atheists don't know the Bible, don't understand the Holy Spirit, don't know what it's like to have a personal relationship...

Some may not have had a religious experience and some may not have studied the Bible, but I would venture to say that most have at least studied the Bible and/or read it cover to cover. In this forum, Ex-C, all have at least been exposed to Christianity, and some very deeply (even preaching). Criticism about religiosity are based on misconceptions and prejudices rather than actual discussion.

 

4. Atheists assume that everything can be known

Some do, some don't. Not knowing does not, however, mean that the default position is the Christian god.

 

5. Atheists are bad people.

Atheists are people.

 

6. If Evolution is false, atheism is false.

Not necessarily. And it isn't.

 

And so on. I don't find most criticisms of atheism in general or even particular atheists to be true, and those that may be true still have no bearing on the truth of the Christian (or other theist) claims.

 

At least that's what I thought the topic was going to be.

[Ouroboros]

In my deconversion, I have discovered many things. Some of which I am still wrestling with, but a few things I noticed that led to my lost of faith, that are ironically arguments made by fundies.

 

Evolution leads to atheism. While this isn't always the case, it helped in my case. It helped because of three things. If Adam didn't exist why is he treated as such? When did the soul come into play?

Sure. For some (or perhaps many) Evolution will make people question their belief. I know that it did not in my case. It had nothing to do with de-conversion.

 

I've heard Christians and Jews alike synthesize Evolution and Genesis. Even some parts that suggest Evolution, like God commanded the oceans to bring forth life, not God creating life, but the oceans creating life.

 

Evolution existed before Darwin, and the believers in Evolution were also Christians. So if it wasn't a problem to believe in Evolution 150 years ago, and before Darwin, then why would it be a problem today? The real reason why they can't accept it is not the actual process itself, but the fact that Darwin's evolution suggests that the guiding force is natural and not divine, and that the humans are part of the same process.

 

Liberal Christianity is a slippery road to unbelief. It was in my case, because I found myself caving to outside influences.

I can't say that's true in my case. I used to belong to a very hardcore cultish version. It was all or nothing. You could not even speak words of unbelief or read a negative book. In my case I think it was the extreme expectations built into the cult teachings and the realization that the world around me didn't match up that led to my deconversion.

 

Why would a all powerful god, not keep his book straight(read inerrant)?

Perhaps that's closer to what caused me to lose my faith. What I had learned the Bible to say didn't match what was real. So of course Christians now claim that what I learned was wrong, and if I had learned the Right Teachings™ I wouldn't have lost my faith.

[Vomit Comet]

Evolution leads to atheism. While this isn't always the case, it helped in my case. It helped because of three things. If Adam didn't exist why is he treated as such? When did the soul come into play?

 

Well, it was certainly the "last nail in the coffin" that caused the secularization of modern Europe.

 

To be sure, Europe isn't as secular as we Americans popularly believe. Even the northern Protestant countries officially support their state churches, and kids have to go through compulsory religious education in the public schools. And even countries like Holland and Denmark have their share of fundies, they're just less politically aggressive than ours are. In Italy, the media goes ga-ga ape-shit every time the Pope speaks or farts, and the Catholic church is quite meddlesome. Of all the places I've been, I think only the Czech Republic fit the "totally secular" stereotype.

 

Liberal Christianity is a slippery road to unbelief. It was in my case, because I found myself caving to outside influences.

 

Well, it's surely a slippery road to nominal Christianity, where people sleep in and keep their money instead of going to church.

 

"God still loves me even though I'm fucking my Jewish girlfriend and smoking dope? There is no hell? Awesome!"

 

Why would a all powerful god, not keep his book straight(read inerrant)?

 

That's one to hammer the liberal Christians with, not us. In fact, it backfires on us, because when we poke holes in their Word, we poke holes in their God. Liberals contend that it's all metaphoric or some shit, but that's basically an easy-way-out cop-out.

[redlemon]

Personally, I wouldn't say that the exploration of evolution causes deconversion. I'm sure it does for some people, but lets face it. Everyone tries to explore things using their very own set of bias. Very few actually break out of their comfort zone. Back when I was a believer, I explored books and website about evolution, but I leaned to places that had a Christian slant. I learned evolution in a way that made it all false. It was only when I started actually breaking away from my belief that I actually started looking at it all in a different light. I'd argue that one would have to already be inclined to break with religion when studying evolution in order for evolution to actually have a part in it.

 

I think the larger issue is when people start exploring and start to learn that they've been misled or lied to. Some people, if they find one lie, they will then start searching for more. And they'll find more. And then they can either do one of three things: embrace the fact that they've been misled, explain it away, or outright ignore it all.

[Franko47]

Often young people who embrace the sciences from an early age will turn out to be atheistic in their thinking, or like one "rocket scientist" I know lean a bit into Buddhist thought and stuff.

 

Science and my interest in it didn't really have much to do with my de-conversion; I would say that my interest in philosophy and psychology had more impact.

 

I'd already accepted that evolution was part of God's "method".

[lunaticheathen]

I accepted evolution all along as a christian, but I never really was raised in the "fundie" set of christianity, where every little single word of the bible is true. When you're of that kind of psycho christianity, OF COURSE evolution, or any kind of rational, outside-the-empty-tomb thinking is going to cause one to "fall away" from their insane cult. I've never been atheist, I'm no longer christian, always accepted evolution. I don't think evolution dismisses any deity, but it sure does throw a monkey wrench into biblical literalism - which, as I said, ANY rational thought would.

I can also see liberal christianity as being a "slippery" stepping stone for those leaving fundie christianity for agnosticism, then atheism, but I don't think those raised in it are all destined to leave. I think it would lead more to "nominal" christianity - at least that's what I've seen. I went from liberal methodist to attempting psycho fundie baptist, to throwing Abe's crazy god to the curb from my brain for good. Tried the love-fest of Baha'i, then went to what I am, crazy pagan. :-P

As for why an all powerful god wouldn't keep his book inerrant, well, there you go, thinking rationally. :-P If you meant what a liberal christian would say, I suppose some stock answer of "humans have free will" or "god works in mysterious ways"...but, come on, it's a book. Just a book about some hallucinations of goatherds, some political history, and a lot of kooky first-century propaganda.

[dagnarus]

Why would a all powerful god, not keep his book straight(read inerrant)?

 

My feeling is why would an all powerful god, allow his book to be easily interprettable as endorsing slavery, genocide, what have you, that is to say that which is the exact opposite of the hippy, feel good, teddy bear god of liberal christianity?

[Vigile]

Atheists are rude

 

In my experience it usually goes something like this. Xian sends you some email full of drivel and prances around spouting smug, highly offensive positions. Atheist gets fed up and proceeds show why the xian is illogical and/or offensive and doesn't dance on egg shells in doing so. Xian: Atheists are rude.

[lunaticheathen]

Atheists are rude

 

In my experience it usually goes something like this. Xian sends you some email full of drivel and prances around spouting smug, highly offensive positions. Atheist gets fed up and proceeds show why the xian is illogical and/or offensive and doesn't dance on egg shells in doing so. Xian: Atheists are rude.

Hah, exactly. Or, in my case, "Pagans are rude, mostly because they hate GAWD soooo much, and lick Satan's ass." No, really, you're abrasive, smug, rude little christard zombies. Zombie Jesus ate your brain, and I have a low tolerance for stupid.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Evolution actually didn't cause me to leave the faith in the same sense it caused Dawkins to ditch his religious beleifs for atheism. It to me is problematic with the Christian concept of god. Though the problem can be worked out.

 

I also agree with that liberal Christianity after hearing your guys comments doesn't usually lead to disbelief. The person that said, it was like a skeleton, read my mind however.

 

On the last point, sorry I phrased it wrong, as vomit comet pointed out.

[Vigile]

To be sure, Europe isn't as secular as we Americans popularly believe. Even the northern Protestant countries officially support their state churches, and kids have to go through compulsory religious education in the public schools. And even countries like Holland and Denmark have their share of fundies, they're just less politically aggressive than ours are. In Italy, the media goes ga-ga ape-shit every time the Pope speaks or farts, and the Catholic church is quite meddlesome. Of all the places I've been, I think only the Czech Republic fit the "totally secular" stereotype.

 

All very true. What I think needs to be clarified for Americans who have never lived in Europe however is the idea that even though all this is true, Europeans as a whole are just not affected by religion in the same way Americans are. As you point out, in Italy they teach religion in school and I have even heard horror stories where teachers have been fired for teaching contraception. And the Pope does get the first news spot on Canel Uno (1st Channel) every day. But Italians, like other Europeans, don't take religion that seriously at all. I never met an Italian catholic that believed in hell and they even laugh if you ask. They aren't prude. They don't go to church. They make jokes about the pope.

 

As far as I can tell Catholicism in Italy is on the same level of superstition, which is prevalent but not life-changing. Italians think about their religion in the same way they think about spilling salt or opening umbrellas in the house. They nervously gesture to throw off the curse and then they don't give it another thought.

 

They also think America is a religion factory and see American fundies as the loons that they are.

[hereticzero]

I took a course in astronomy in college that sparked my interest in evolution. I could not explain evolution like a text book but I have a much better understanding of it now than when I was a fundy. I found it ironic that when (un)intelligent design sued to be taught in Pennsylvania school district along side evolution, it was not an atheist that proved evolution was TRUE but a Christian, a Roman Catholic nailed the lid shut on ID supporters by presenting evidence that evolution can be proven at the genetic level. The man that did that was Kem Miller, biology professor, Brown University. His testimony caught my attention and I was absolutely spell-bound listening to him present evidence that proved evolution, mainly because I had never seen a professing xtian claim evolution was true or present evidence that contradicted Christian or church doctrine, and I had not heard evolution was proven at the genetic level. I thought, 'wow, there is a Christian out there with brass after all!'

 

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/ his testimony is on his website along with other info on evolution.

[WhyBaby]

The concept of evolution was not a faith issue with me for a long time. To me the point was to worship God as the Creator no matter how he did it. Whether God did it all in 6 days or took eons to set the universe in motion, to me it spoke to the power and eternity of God. Since 99% of scientists accept evolution as a given, I rejected the young earth concept. I figured that the "day age" interpretation of Genesis 1 was probably true.

 

Even though most of my fundie compatriots believe in a young earth, they accepted my viewpoint. I would also say to them that it's not worth talking about outside of Christian circles. Isn't it more important to "save" people than to argue about evolution?

 

What really got me faith-wise was the concept of original sin. If there was no literal Adam and Eve, there couldn't have been original sin. After that, Christian doctrine continues to unravel. How could Jesus be a "second Adam" if there was no first Adam? etc.

 

Romans 5:12: Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Romans 5:18: So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

 

So, in a sense, fundies are right to be dogmatic about biblical inerrancy and a literal interpretation of the Bible.

[Ouroboros]

Atheists are rude

 

In my experience it usually goes something like this. Xian sends you some email full of drivel and prances around spouting smug, highly offensive positions. Atheist gets fed up and proceeds show why the xian is illogical and/or offensive and doesn't dance on egg shells in doing so. Xian: Atheists are rude.

And I've noticed that telling the truth to someone's face is rude. But the more we learn and understand things, the more direct we become, and the "rude" label rides with it.

[Vomit Comet]

Evolution actually didn't cause me to leave the faith in the same sense it caused Dawkins to ditch his religious beleifs for atheism. It to me is problematic with the Christian concept of god. Though the problem can be worked out.

 

I was less and less able to reconcile Biblical literalism with... frickin' science, you know? First, I ditched Young Earth Creationism and bought into the idea of "pre-creation", where there were dinosaurs and shit but then at some point God wiped the slate clean and started over in 6 days. Next, I ditched that and bought into the idea that in Genesis, the word "day" can be interpreted as "phase." Okay, so a day is, like, 500 million years and 500 million years is like a day to God, right? Okay.

 

But I still couldn't buy into evolution. My personal theory was that God incrementally created critters and then, when they died out, he would make a new, slightly improved batch. The ancestor of the bat was a failure, so God redid the bat and gave it wings. Sort of this incremental piecemeal creation that resembles evolution but ultimately isn't.

 

Also, I figured the pre-human hominids had zero connection to humans. They existed, but they were what they were. Then when they were gone, God made Man.

 

Well, eventually I knew that was horse shit. What was particularly distressing is that it seemed most fundies bought into this whacky cracky Hovind shit. It was just downright pathetic sophistry. Like an article in Vanity Fair said recently, for these YEC proponents "it's like playing speed chess against a thousand computers and a thousand Nobel prize winners."

 

One of the reasons my faith slipped was... how could the vast majority of God's Kingdom (limited largely to fundies) be so goddamn stupid?