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Goodbye Jesus

Attn Christians:the Mystery Of Iniquity


Tabula Rasa

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Here's a point to ponder. Lucifer was the covering cherub, constantly in the presence of the unimaginable glory of Yahweh. So then, if being in the presence of Yahweh is the ultimate bliss, how could sin grow in Lucifer's heart and compel him to rebel against Yahweh with 1/3rd of the Angels and fall from heaven?

 

Looking forward to your answers,

Tab

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Here's a point to ponder. Lucifer was the covering cherub, constantly in the presence of the unimaginable glory of Yahweh. So then, if being in the presence of Yahweh is the ultimate bliss, how could sin grow in Lucifer's heart and compel him to rebel against Yahweh with 1/3rd of the Angels and fall from heaven?

 

Looking forward to your answers,

Tab

 

Maybe it would just be ultimate bliss to us because we temporal and possibly, transfiguring into immortality alone, could make us blissful, along with peace, no worries, genuine happiness, etc. Other than that Tab, I am not sure. Maybe Satan being in a immortal role makes it not relate somehow.

 

Does that make any sense? Satan, immortal, humans, temporal. Satan in this role is given obvious higher powers than the human, yet Humans have lived within the confines of Earth; in which, when we enter the state of immortality, we will transfigure, something to like what Christ did on the Mt. ??

 

Just guesses really.

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Here's a point to ponder. Lucifer was the covering cherub, constantly in the presence of the unimaginable glory of Yahweh. So then, if being in the presence of Yahweh is the ultimate bliss, how could sin grow in Lucifer's heart and compel him to rebel against Yahweh with 1/3rd of the Angels and fall from heaven?

 

Looking forward to your answers,

Tab

 

A&E did it.

 

Edit: God probably had the good chair AND the clicker.

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Yes, I've often used that argument. If heaven is so damn blissful, why did the angels rebel? What is to prevent another rebellion when these shit head Christians get to magic happy land? The only way a rebellion can happen is if there is discontent. And that is a pretty damn big discontent if a 1/3 were willing to "take up arms" as it were, against god. Maybe they too seen him as an evil tyrant.

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And here I thought that the rebellion and all that was a part of the ineffable plan. I mean, how better to entertain yourselves than a "rebellion" every few millenia or so? Of course this leads to the issue that the xtian god is creating evil, which last I checked was a bit of a no-no for them.

 

Actually this is something I never really thought about before. Actually an interesting question.

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A&E did it.

I assume you mean Adam and Eve? How's that possible when Satan had rebelled BEFORE the garden?

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Well, if satan rebelled and then managed somehow to get 1/3 of the angels to go with him (did they hold rallies when "god" wasn't looking?) was there an actual war? With fighting? Hand to hand (wing to wing?) combat? Why would it come to all that? Why not "wish them into the cornfield" like on that Twilight Zone? That was nice and quick.

 

And why would they "fall" to earth? Didn't "hell" already exist? Or did it get created after all this? How long would it take to create hell? All the other locations (like heaven or earth) was spoken into existence so I imagine it would happen really quickly. No need to annoy the humans since if hell didn't exist it could before the angels made the trip down from heaven.

 

Once in hell why don't they stay there? Why can they come and go as they please but apparently nothing else can? Why is it they won't be able to at some future point in time? If it's not until the future that hell is truly a one-way trip then "jesus" going to hell and returning isn't so remarkable. Seems anyone should be able to do it.

 

If satan and 1/3 of the angels can rebel right under "god's" nose and avoid going into the ultimate super-max prison only to wonder about free then I have to question the ability of this "god" to protect anyone at any place at any time. He's failed at all locations and at all times to date.

 

mwc

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A&E did it.

I assume you mean Adam and Eve? How's that possible when Satan had rebelled BEFORE the garden?

 

Adam and Eve rebelled in the presence of God. No? Although in a less rigid sense of "rebel"..but still.

 

Do you consider the garden to be already "fallen"?

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A&E did it.

I assume you mean Adam and Eve? How's that possible when Satan had rebelled BEFORE the garden?

 

How is possible to answer the OP question?

 

Guesses are the only thing one can say honestly, unless they find the, 'Book of Satan' or something with more detail.

 

I said earlier that perhaps Satan being immortal has a different setting than what the human that dies on Earth would have, then the human goes to heaven and would experience that realm with the same consciousness they had on Earth or something to that nature.

 

For instance. Satan was before A&E immortal, spirit, etc. He was already present in form and setting (not of the Earth as we are). Satan I pressume was given freedom of sort similar to us, in that he could think, create, etc, good or evil. He deceived us and all 3 were punished, i.e hell was created, a place of dismemberment.

 

Maybe Satan is pissed off at all us Adams because they made him segregated; and wants to try to destroy them all??

 

Anyway, A&E. They went from angelic, as Satan, to apart of Earth just as the rest of creation on Earth. But, the one thing we do know is that A&E die living in this world, pain, suffering, physical; and Satan is still confined to some other place, yet not confined as flesh (according to account with Christ). Now, we have a certain joy, happiness level, we experience pain, etc on earth; but Satan does not, so when we die wouldn't that suggest that if we kept our being, consciousness, mind, etc, being from Earth to no pain, suffering, physical elements make a person at least feel like they are in a blissful environment?

 

The Gnostic believe that the Christ was the one that told A&E to eat of the tree?? So, then, we have a whole other element involved. But for the sake of debate, my response is based on Biblically reference and thought.

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Adam and Eve rebelled in the presence of God. No? Although in a less rigid sense of "rebel"..but still.

 

Do you consider the garden to be already "fallen"?

The point was that free will must have existed before the fall in the garden because Satan was able to rebel. So either God wanted him to (which I feel the more theologically correct view) or Satan had free will before hand and it did not originate in the garden...

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And here I thought that the rebellion and all that was a part of the ineffable plan. I mean, how better to entertain yourselves than a "rebellion" every few millenia or so? Of course this leads to the issue that the xtian god is creating evil, which last I checked was a bit of a no-no for them.

 

Actually this is something I never really thought about before. Actually an interesting question.

It really makes perfect sense in a unity kind of way. The Hindus also have their destroyer, which is a necessity to all that is.

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Adam and Eve rebelled in the presence of God. No? Although in a less rigid sense of "rebel"..but still.

 

Do you consider the garden to be already "fallen"?

The point was that free will must have existed before the fall in the garden because Satan was able to rebel. So either God wanted him to (which I feel the more theologically correct view) or Satan had free will before hand and it did not originate in the garden...

 

I agree

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Here's a point to ponder. Lucifer was the covering cherub, constantly in the presence of the unimaginable glory of Yahweh. So then, if being in the presence of Yahweh is the ultimate bliss, how could sin grow in Lucifer's heart and compel him to rebel against Yahweh with 1/3rd of the Angels and fall from heaven?

 

Looking forward to your answers,

Tab

 

Maybe it would just be ultimate bliss to us because we temporal and possibly, transfiguring into immortality alone, could make us blissful, along with peace, no worries, genuine happiness, etc. Other than that Tab, I am not sure. Maybe Satan being in a immortal role makes it not relate somehow.

 

Does that make any sense? Satan, immortal, humans, temporal. Satan in this role is given obvious higher powers than the human, yet Humans have lived within the confines of Earth; in which, when we enter the state of immortality, we will transfigure, something to like what Christ did on the Mt. ??

 

Just guesses really.

Have you considered the implications of this line of thought for when humans become immortal? Living in "heaven" for all eternity?

 

If some do not rebel, or act sinfully, it's because there is no free will in heaven, but then Satan rebelled, suggesting that heaven is going to be a hellish place to spend eternity - always looking over your shoulder, avoiding the scheming of the other angels, and risking your immortal soul... The odds of spending eternity in Heaven with free will approach 0.

 

Or, if we cannot sin in heaven, then there is no free will, and we will be like potted plants.

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Have you considered the implications of this line of thought for when humans become immortal? Living in "heaven" for all eternity?

 

If some do not rebel, or act sinfully, it's because there is no free will in heaven, but then Satan rebelled, suggesting that heaven is going to be a hellish place to spend eternity - always looking over your shoulder, avoiding the scheming of the other angels, and risking your immortal soul... The odds of spending eternity in Heaven with free will approach 0.

 

Or, if we cannot sin in heaven, then there is no free will, and we will be like potted plants.

 

I went through this train of thought also. It implies that you cannot loose your salvation once you get to heaven but what does that mean about free will? And why the circus of life on earth to begin with if living with god in perfection without freewill is possible and indeed the end result?

 

This is off the topic but where are souls before they go to earth? Do souls exist before birth/ conception(as you like)? It all gets very very weird if you think about it.

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Well, if satan rebelled and then managed somehow to get 1/3 of the angels to go with him (did they hold rallies when "god" wasn't looking?) was there an actual war? With fighting? Hand to hand (wing to wing?) combat? Why would it come to all that? Why not "wish them into the cornfield" like on that Twilight Zone? That was nice and quick.

 

And why would they "fall" to earth? Didn't "hell" already exist? Or did it get created after all this? How long would it take to create hell? All the other locations (like heaven or earth) was spoken into existence so I imagine it would happen really quickly. No need to annoy the humans since if hell didn't exist it could before the angels made the trip down from heaven.

 

Once in hell why don't they stay there? Why can they come and go as they please but apparently nothing else can? Why is it they won't be able to at some future point in time? If it's not until the future that hell is truly a one-way trip then "jesus" going to hell and returning isn't so remarkable. Seems anyone should be able to do it.

 

If satan and 1/3 of the angels can rebel right under "god's" nose and avoid going into the ultimate super-max prison only to wonder about free then I have to question the ability of this "god" to protect anyone at any place at any time. He's failed at all locations and at all times to date.

 

mwc

 

My Church's interpretation was that Satan's current kingdom is earth, this is evidenced by the fact that Satan told Jesus he was given authority over all the earth and Jesus didn't call him on it. Satan only gets cast into hell after the event's of revelation. The reason for God not throwing satan into hell already is because he wants man to do it. This of course doesn't really gel with the fact that pretty much all the fighting done in revelation is performed by Jesus and angels, but oh well.

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Here's a point to ponder. Lucifer was the covering cherub, constantly in the presence of the unimaginable glory of Yahweh. So then, if being in the presence of Yahweh is the ultimate bliss, how could sin grow in Lucifer's heart and compel him to rebel against Yahweh with 1/3rd of the Angels and fall from heaven?

 

Looking forward to your answers,

Tab

 

A&E did it.

 

Edit: God probably had the good chair AND the clicker.

:lmao: I love that. Such cool humour.

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Here's a thought. If demons can suffer. If demons can act on their own. If demons can sin and do good. Why didn't Jesus die for their sins too?

 

What makes them different from humans other than their magical powers?

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Here's another one. If Satan could disown god after being in his presence, what makes xians think they can't disown god at some point over the vast eternity that they are in heaven? Seems like their salvation is always going to be up in the air and hell fire always hanging over their precious little heads.

 

If you guys think you won't sin in heaven, when Satan proved it is possible, just consider how hard you try not to sin now and don't make it. And, you'll get a whole eternity to fuck up. Given those odds, everyone will be in hell eventually.

 

Or, are you just going to be a robot in heaven, incapable of free thought and action?

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Can god get rid of evil forever? Or is "evil" rather something that comes from the inside of humans? And how can the death of Jesus get this stuff out of the way? I remember that I never met one xian who was not ashamed about "evil" thoughts or "evil" deeds he has committed. So a xian has the holy spirit inside his heart but is still able to do or think "evil" stuff. If this did not change through the holy spirit, when will it happen? As other already mentioned: When there is free will in heaven, than there has to be the opportunity to be "evil".

Back in my church we thought that the humans would just have no need to sin, because everything would be perfect. But what happened to satan or A&E?

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Here's another one. If Satan could disown god after being in his presence, what makes xians think they can't disown god at some point over the vast eternity that they are in heaven? Seems like their salvation is always going to be up in the air and hell fire always hanging over their precious little heads.

 

If you guys think you won't sin in heaven, when Satan proved it is possible, just consider how hard you try not to sin now and don't make it. And, you'll get a whole eternity to fuck up. Given those odds, everyone will be in hell eventually.

 

Or, are you just going to be a robot in heaven, incapable of free thought and action?

 

A wizard did it.

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Or, if we cannot sin in heaven, then there is no free will, and we will be like potted plants.

 

Maybe that's why the Bible says not to lose your crown, have faith to the end, etc. because keeping our faith in the physical would guarantee that when immortal, we will not rebel. I am trying to comprehend what you are saying here. You say that this line of thought tells you that Heaven may not be all that great, if the immortal could rebel. I think that's the point though. Maybe to the immortal it isn't all that great, but to the ones that came out of the Earth, they are forever grateful.

 

Maybe God already knew that if we lived on Earth through 'the fire' so to speak, we would become refined, tried, and when entering the heavens, we would be justified, thankful, redeemed.

 

Maybe it is all just a test. Maybe what we consider our life is merely an illusion, or setting placed by God, to just be able to separate those that can be in the Garden with him (blameless), or those that can't be with him.

 

God said in Genesis that his spirit can't strive with man. God kicked A&E out of the Garden (where God walked around). So, one point to consider is that God doesn't inhabit with any spirit that disobeys him or is against him so to speak. So, now, there is a separation of powers. Darkness and light, good and evil, just and unjust.

 

Whether there be mayhem, chaos, torture, grinding of teeth, in hell or pearly gates, with jewels, golden roads, or little wizard of Oz men running around; the fact is there is a separation of powers. Now, supposedly, God is the higher power, the one who can completely destroy the soul.

 

I think of it like this. (Stay with me here :lol:) If God would have destroyed Satan earlier than man, then we would not have been tempted, deceived, right? We would have stayed immortal and been sent to Earth, right? But, what we don't know and possibly God does already know is that we may have ended up just like Satan, rebelling after a certain amount of time.

 

I contend that an omniscient God could have made these beings, gave them freedom, knew they would do what they wanted, and all at the same time made provisions to separate them. Now we say, Inhumane!, right? Why? It is separation. Maybe the determination of who goes where is a mystery and if revealed wouldn't be good news to the church.

 

What if when we die, every Adam goes to heaven, are cleansed by living a life on Earth? That is not a Christian standpoint, but I can see it as possible.

 

The only factor in that line of thought is, Will the ones that would've been separated from God don't appreciate God or immortality when they get there? What if they say, I am bored, I miss my home?

 

What if hell to the immortal is Earth :grin: If I was immortal, couldn't feel pain, didn't get hungry, etc and I was sent to live on this Earth for all eternity,.....wouldn't that be hell?

 

Would you want to live in the physical, yet be immortal. Lets say aging stops, but the rest is still there. Like, if someone stabs us, we will feel the pain, but not die, and be healed back up feeling the pain of what a stab wound would feel until we heal.

 

To me, something of that thought would be hell. Lazarus in Jesus parable could fit into that scene. He wanted just a drip of water to cool his tongue. Now, if we didn't die, didn't age to die, immortal, but still lived in the physcial sense, wouldn't that fit? One would still be thirsty, right? Yet they couldn't die because they are set as immortal, on Earth.

 

New Jerusalem, coming down from Heaven, on the Earth. People can't enter where the Lambs people are staying, which is in Revelation.

 

To me, heaven and hell sound like God will come to Earth and inhabit the Earth to where ALL people can see it, everyone will die to the natural realm of Earth, and everything will be as I said above, immortal, can't die, but physical still. Then we got 'rivers of flowing water', 'never thirst again', 'wipe our tears away' (possibly sad because people we loved couldn't come in?)

 

It's like Heaven will be the Garden, except this time, the ones who God will inhabit with will obey him, and love him because they have experienced faith and love for Him on Earth (remember? Love the Lord with all thy heartm mind, and soul). I think the purpose of Christ was the grandstand of God, the announcement, proclamation. Christ did not come to condemn the world; but that through him the world might be saved.

 

Christ was the announcement that there will be a separation, and Christ was chosen to live a guiltless life, innocent, and be the One to shepherd the sheep, be our keeper in our immortal place, our Levite, our high priest, Holy of Holy.

 

Shyone, I have a son, his name is Kaleb. I love that boy with all my heart and would do anything for him. BUT, he's not my biological son. I see Christ in this light, in contrast to normal Christianity and trinity beliefs. Christ was ordained God's son by God because he was worthy to be the Son of God.

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It's like Heaven will be the Garden, except this time, the ones who God will inhabit with will obey him, and love him because they have experienced faith and love for Him on Earth (remember? Love the Lord with all thy heartm mind, and soul). I think the purpose of Christ was the grandstand of God, the announcement, proclamation. Christ did not come to condemn the world; but that through him the world might be saved.

 

Christ was the announcement that there will be a separation, and Christ was chosen to live a guiltless life, innocent, and be the One to shepherd the sheep, be our keeper in our immortal place, our Levite, our high priest, Holy of Holy.

 

Shyone, I have a son, his name is Kaleb. I love that boy with all my heart and would do anything for him. BUT, he's not my biological son. I see Christ in this light, in contrast to normal Christianity and trinity beliefs. Christ was ordained God's son by God because he was worthy to be the Son of God.

Interesting thoughts. Heresy, but interesting.

 

Your theology differs so much from standard Christianity that I'm not sure whether it would be useful to anyone to examine it. It almost reminds me of Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

What do you mean separation? If God comes to earth, where will the separated go?

 

Why is it taking so long?

 

Do you see any conflict between saving people and separating people? What is the basis for differentiating these two groups, and would those who have rejected Christianity in favor of their ancestors' beliefs be treated differently from those who accepted Christianity solely because of their ancestors' beliefs?

 

If you're going to invent a new theology, you'll need to figure out the details so that they make sense to people who don't believe as you do.

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My Church's interpretation was that Satan's current kingdom is earth, this is evidenced by the fact that Satan told Jesus he was given authority over all the earth and Jesus didn't call him on it. Satan only gets cast into hell after the event's of revelation. The reason for God not throwing satan into hell already is because he wants man to do it. This of course doesn't really gel with the fact that pretty much all the fighting done in revelation is performed by Jesus and angels, but oh well.

But of course. A rebellion earns you your own kingdom...the crown jewel even. Nice. Pilate didn't call "jesus" out on being king of the world either. Guess that crazy guy I see every so often (not McCain ;) ) really *is* the president since Obama isn't calling him out on it.

 

Then "god" expects the humans to do his dirty work for him yet again...though Revelation has no mention of human involvement in this act. Plus humans get tossed into the pit as well thanks to the delay. What a treat.

 

mwc

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The story of Satan rebelling and one-third of angels being thrown out of heaven is an invention of the church and is not biblical.

 

Here are the three passages typically used to support the story:

 

Passage 1: Isaiah 14:12-14:

 

How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations. For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I I will be like the Most High.

 

But in context it's obvious the passage refers to the king of Babylon, not Satan.

 

Isaiah 14:4 instructs the reader to "take up this proverb against the king of Babylon" and Isaiah 14:16-17 says "Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?"

 

Passage 2: Luke 10:18:

 

He [Jesus] replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

 

It's obvious that Jesus is talking about the work of his disciples, who in verse 17 come back all excited from their first mission that they have the power to cast out demons. Jesus' comment is about the immediate events – their work casting out demons caused Satan to fall like lightning from heaven. He's not talking about something that happened long ago. He's talking about the success of their mission.

 

Passage 3a: Revelation 12:3-4:

 

Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.

 

Passage 3b:Revelation 12:7-9:

 

And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

 

Once again, in context, there is no evidence to suggest that anything in Revelation refers to some past event of Satan and his angels being tossed out of heaven. But the idea of one-third of his angels being thrown out of heaven is solely based on Rev. 12:4 above, which talks about stars. But a few verses later in the same chapter, it talks plainly about Satan and his angels being thrown to heaven. Why refer to stars, then angels?

 

There are a lot of problems using Revelation for anything because biblical scholars cannot agree on what Revelation is even about. However, the interpretation I consider the best is that it refers to events recent to the author, a cosmic interpretation of the Jesus story using metaphor to avoid the wrath of the Roman empire. It's not some prophetic roadmap of the future or coded metaphors of past events.

 

Therefore, this popular story about Satan and one-third of his angels being tossed out of heaven for rebelling against God is completely unbiblical.

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A&E did it.

I assume you mean Adam and Eve? How's that possible when Satan had rebelled BEFORE the garden?

 

Darn, I thought End meant the Arts and Entertainment channel, considering the quip about the clicker.

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