Brakeman Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Why does god not grant prayers of biblical clarity? I mean why would god not grant full understanding of the entire bible upon such prayers by christians? Why would it be necessary to spend a lifetime studying the bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 Why does god not grant prayers of biblical clarity? I mean why would god not grant full understanding of the entire bible upon such prayers by christians? Why would it be necessary to spend a lifetime studying the bible? From my knowledge, only two people have been privileged to receive the full understanding of the Bible and they were the ones that Jesus met on the way to Emmaus (Luke 27) People in the past have devoted their whole lives to serving God, monastery, priests, nuns, etc. People that dedicate their entire life to the service of God, yet, even they sometimes don't fully understand. On a modern level, pastors, laymen, theologians, scholars have done similar, put many years and a large portion of their lives to trying to understand the things of God. I have heard this before Brakeman, and I myself have spent years studying the Bible to sometimes draw blanks. The difference between present age and any other imo is that this world is revolving differently, in instances instead of years, months. Every second of every day is accounted for in todays world. No time for reflection. For me, it did not happen overnight, but understand comes in different forms in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted January 30, 2010 Author Share Posted January 30, 2010 Yes, abiyoyo, that is what I understand to be the case too, but you've failed to answer the main question, WHY does god not answer these prayers for clarity? Furthermore, we've had many many generations of christians who have undoubtedly prayed for direction in their spiritual life, why have these people not gotten identical directions from god? Why would god tell one man to be a morman and one to be a catholic, and one to be a baptist? Doesn't god really talk to them? Don't all of these believers swear that god has spoken to them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted January 30, 2010 Share Posted January 30, 2010 From my knowledge, only two people have been privileged to receive the full understanding of the Bible and they were the ones that Jesus met on the way to Emmaus (Luke 27) Ya but why? God wants people to obey him right? People would need to know what he wanted in order to obey him right? What was so special about the two on the way to Emmaus? They didn't even write a book about their understanding. God says, "Hey, you human fucks read my mind or else!" It doesn't really matter a lick, but it sort of drives me nuts that you can't see that the foolishness of these sorts of contradictions either point to no God, or to one that is not quite stable himself. I've got another Christian friend in the meat world that often says, "Ya, it's nuts but I just have to believe." You are obviously in the same boat, except that you keep trying to plug the leaks. History tells you that the boat never sinks even if you do have to live with a wet ass. People in the past have devoted their whole lives to serving God, monastery, priests, nuns, etc. People that dedicate their entire life to the service of God, yet, even they sometimes don't fully understand. On a modern level, pastors, laymen, theologians, scholars have done similar, put many years and a large portion of their lives to trying to understand the things of God. Ya been there did that. I gained a full understanding. There is no God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valkyrie0010 Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 Well there is a limit to how much shit you can get out of your own imaginary friend inside your own head. You are still bound by reason, hence the blanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted January 31, 2010 Share Posted January 31, 2010 To a non-christians this has an easy answer, YWHW doesn't exist and the bible is a poorly written book. For christians it some weak excuse, like christians in every other denomination are unwilling to listen to gods speaking or some such rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Yes, abiyoyo, that is what I understand to be the case too, but you've failed to answer the main question, WHY does god not answer these prayers for clarity? Furthermore, we've had many many generations of christians who have undoubtedly prayed for direction in their spiritual life, why have these people not gotten identical directions from god? Why would god tell one man to be a morman and one to be a catholic, and one to be a baptist? Doesn't god really talk to them? Don't all of these believers swear that god has spoken to them? What if its understood in the context of evolution? That it's something like a child saying "Make me understand what it is to be an adult". How does that happen except through experience and growth? That when someone goes through the act of "prayer" (a form of focused meditation), that that is part of a process for developing an enlarged perspective through which to act? In other words, religion, in part, is a means to an end of more developed, less child-like egocentric existence. In a sense I'd say most people as they mature do go in mostly "identical direction". Mature people move outside themselves to include and empathize with others, and those that don't are considered 'immature'. There is a natural progression from self to interconnectedness. So that would be the "identical direction", and the religion is simply a system to that end within appropriate social contexts - in the best case. But Chef makes a point, that if the system is understood as damnation for failure to thrive, I'd say psychologically that's not very effective for a lot of people and makes God look a lot less like a goal, and more like a demanding parent who threatens to beat you for not conforming. That's where I feel a lot of the traditional Christian views miss the mark. It should be about "becoming", not compliance to rules. Maturity is about transformation, not some simple behavior modification of children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 Yes, abiyoyo, that is what I understand to be the case too, but you've failed to answer the main question, WHY does god not answer these prayers for clarity? Furthermore, we've had many many generations of christians who have undoubtedly prayed for direction in their spiritual life, why have these people not gotten identical directions from god? Why would god tell one man to be a morman and one to be a catholic, and one to be a baptist? Doesn't god really talk to them? Don't all of these believers swear that god has spoken to them? What if its understood in the context of evolution? That it's something like a child saying "Make me understand what it is to be an adult". How does that happen except through experience and growth? That when someone goes through the act of "prayer" (a form of focused meditation),.. I'm pretty sure Christian "Prayer" is supposed to be communication. Meditation is not communication. That you may gradually see things reasoned in a different light by your own mind is what they do, it is all they can do, because there isn't anybody else on the line. If there were someone else to talk to, god, then he could give one the clarity straight away, as that would be in his interest. Since he supposedly is all powerful and he created our mind and soul to start with, then he would be able to grant our prayer for clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Yes, abiyoyo, that is what I understand to be the case too, but you've failed to answer the main question, WHY does god not answer these prayers for clarity? Furthermore, we've had many many generations of christians who have undoubtedly prayed for direction in their spiritual life, why have these people not gotten identical directions from god? Why would god tell one man to be a morman and one to be a catholic, and one to be a baptist? Doesn't god really talk to them? Don't all of these believers swear that god has spoken to them? What if its understood in the context of evolution? That it's something like a child saying "Make me understand what it is to be an adult". How does that happen except through experience and growth? That when someone goes through the act of "prayer" (a form of focused meditation),.. I'm pretty sure Christian "Prayer" is supposed to be communication. Meditation is not communication. That you may gradually see things reasoned in a different light by your own mind is what they do, it is all they can do, because there isn't anybody else on the line. If there were someone else to talk to, god, then he could give one the clarity straight away, as that would be in his interest. Since he supposedly is all powerful and he created our mind and soul to start with, then he would be able to grant our prayer for clarity. Actually, prayer at more advanced stages is meditation. The immature are the ones looking for daddy to give, but the goal is to come to the realization that it emerges from within through practice - as opposed to a cognitive realization that "nobody's up there to do it for me, so I will just pick myself up by force of will". To quote from an essay about the autobiography of Theresa of Avila: Teresa depicts different stages of the life of prayer in metaphorical terms taken from the manner of securing water to irrigate a garden. The "first water" is laboriously obtained from a well and carried in a bucket to the garden; this is in reference to beginners who, liberated from the more flagrant mortal sins, apply themselves to discursive prayer of meditation, although they experience fatigue and aridity from time to time. After speaking at length of meditation in its stricter meaning, Teresa made a brief reference to "acquired" contemplation before beginning her discussion of the "second water." In this second stage, the gardener secures water through use of a windlass and bucket; here Teresa refers to the "prayer of quiet, a gift of God through which the individual begins to have a passive experience of prayer. The third method of irrigation is the employment of water from a stream or river; the application made by Teresa is to the "sleep of the faculties." Although Teresa considered this an important stage in the evolution of prayer when she wrote her autobiography, she later relegated it to a simple intensification of the "prayer of quiet" in the Interior Castle. The fourth method of irrigation is God given: the rain; Teresa employs this metaphor to describe a state of union in prayer in which the soul is apparently passive. Her Way of Perfection Teresa addressed to her nuns, teaching them therein the major virtues that demand their solicitude, casting further light on the practice of prayer, and using the Pater Noster as a vehicle for teaching prayer at greater depth. This book is sometimes referred to as the apex of Teresa's ascetical doctrine. The Interior Castle is the principal source of mature Teresian thought on the spiritual life in its integrity. Chief emphasis is laid on the life of prayer, but other elements (the apostolate, for example) are also treated. The interior castle is the soul, in the center of which dwells the Trinity. Growth in prayer enables the individual to enter into deeper intimacy with God--signified by a progressive journey through the apartments (or mansions) of the castle from the outermost to the luminous center. When a man has attained union with God in the degree permitted to him in this world, he is "at the center" of himself; in other words, he has integrity as a child of God and as a human being. Each of the apartments of the castle is distinguished by a different stage in the evolution of prayer, with its consequent effects upon every other phase of the life of the individual. [emphasis mine. From here] So you see there are many stages as she understood it in the practice of prayer. But your point is valid to those who think anything is going to be 'done for them'. Ultimately, by whatever means, it has to emerge from within you. Some find that "God" allows that which is within them to open up. Then the argument can be made that that is God and how God works. In either case, thinking a sky-daddy, or your real-daddy, or even the government is going to make it happen for you without any sort of effort of growth on your own is sadly immature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 AM, I still don't quite grasp it. "Growth in prayer enables the individual to enter into deeper intimacy with God-.." You can't get intimate with someone when you're alone and not conversing with the other person. Makes for pretty prose, but does not make sense. The Biblical descriptions and examples of prayer aren't mediations they are described as one on one conversations. Asking for forgiveness, asking for guidance, pleading for intervention, these are verbalized requests, not mediations. When moses prayed, he was making objective requests, was he not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 Why does god not grant prayers of biblical clarity? I mean why would god not grant full understanding of the entire bible upon such prayers by christians? Why would it be necessary to spend a lifetime studying the bible? In the same sense, what regulates the rate of scientific discovery, and do you think the questions are independent of each other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 AM said in error:So you see there are many stages as she understood it in the practice of prayer. But your point is valid to those who think anything is going to be 'done for them'. Ultimately, by whatever means, it has to emerge from within you. Some find that "God" allows that which is within them to open up. Then the argument can be made that that is God and how God works. In either case, thinking a sky-daddy, or your real-daddy, or even the government is going to make it happen for you without any sort of effort of growth on your own is sadly immature. Please curtail you assuredness so we don't have to "discuss" again. Thx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 Why does god not grant prayers of biblical clarity? I mean why would god not grant full understanding of the entire bible upon such prayers by christians? Why would it be necessary to spend a lifetime studying the bible? In the same sense, what regulates the rate of scientific discovery, and do you think the questions are independent of each other? In scientific discovery you are only held back by what you figure our for yourself, But that does not apply here because christians are actively requesting additional clarifying details from a being, god, for his desires and rules. This is not unlike a player verbally asking the umpire at a baseball game to explain the infield fly rule. The player does not meditate or need to discover the rules for himself, he asks the umpire for clarity, pure and simple. If the ump isn't really there, then the player is talking to himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 2, 2010 Share Posted February 2, 2010 AM, I still don't quite grasp it. "Growth in prayer enables the individual to enter into deeper intimacy with God-.." You can't get intimate with someone when you're alone and not conversing with the other person. Makes for pretty prose, but does not make sense. But what constitutes conversing? You would say you are communing with nature, and it is just you and nature. You could say that in a sense is conversing. You walk away from it with a sense of renewal, rejuvenation, perspective, etc. In a sense that is a type of prayer. Your 'soul' connects with the world, It communes with you, etc. God, to many people is not some gift-giving Santa Clause in the sky, nor some blood-demanding anthropomorphic volcano deity. Those are Sunday school concepts. Rather God is viewed as a source of their spirit (their deep sense of existential self). It would be like that communing with nature, but instead of it being the deep experience of beauty hitting you, it is diving into Beauty itself as the source. So deeper intimacy means experiencing beauty, love, life, etc in its essence, its nature even beyond its manifestation in the world. Once someone moves past the symbols to the source, then the sorts of child-like concepts of God as some man in heaven becomes less relevant, and certainly non-literal. All that religions are, IMO, is dressing up "God" for the masses in cultural terms that they can attempt to access like a picture storybook. But that is not reality, but can be to children, as they look at the little boat on the mountain with all the animals around it.... "This is God! Don't tell me it's not!" The Biblical descriptions and examples of prayer aren't mediations they are described as one on one conversations. Asking for forgiveness, asking for guidance, pleading for intervention, these are verbalized requests, not mediations. When moses prayed, he was making objective requests, was he not? The Bible is not one thing. Not one message. Those examples of petition are there, as well as speaking of meditation. Much of the synoptic Gospels are more religion oriented with a mythological framework, but I always found John to be much more your spiritual, semi-gnostic work of that community. You find much more of that sort of 'communion/enlightenment" aspect in there - as in the very opening of it portraying the Christ as in full communion with God, "in the beginning... the Logos was with God (pros ton theon, face to face, sense of direct intimate relationship, communion", etc.) Certainly there is division amongst the more religious about form and practice, with those who are more the mystical (such as Theresa of Avilia). But within any religion you have those who are about that direct communion with God aspect, operating within the larger forms and doctrines driven religious community. As an example, here's one Christian site I just searched to hear them trying to justify this practice to the non-mystical community of their religion: http://www.allaboutgod.com/christian-meditation.htm Edit: actually that link is pretty fundi in their theologies, but nonetheless raises the question. I found a Wiki article that's better: "Christian meditation is meditation in a Christian context. The word meditation has come to have two different meanings: (1) continued, intent, focused thought; and (2) a state of quiet, intentionally unfocused, "contentless" awareness. This double meaning has contributed to misunderstanding and disagreement about the nature, role, and even the appropriateness of Christian meditation. Traditionally, the word meditation (meditatio) had the first meaning, and another word, contemplation (contemplatio) was used for the second" I would still argue that regardless of the context, it is still a practice that is about moving beyond your own thoughts of the mundane towards the more 'transcendent', in that sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 Well AM, I'm not a "Mystical" type of person at all. I don't use fancy words, prose, or allegories to dress up my appreciation of the nature of the world. I don't communicate with nature other than to yell at the blackbirds and the occasional stray cat. "Communing" with nature means to me just sitting in the grass, smelling the clean air and relaxing. That's all it has ever meant. I don't have any imaginary "Soul", just me and my little old mind here. So despite reading your post over a couple of more times, I can't say that I really understand your view. I appreciate your response, but I can't relate. I think of communication as the passing of information, which is an old fashioned dictionary type meaning, and since there is no god passing to me any info that I don't already own, then I would say there is no communication, gradual or otherwise. Of course my original query was directed to mainstream TRUE CHRISTIANS , And I think I would be safe to say that the vast majority of them expect prayer to be a mimic of a telephone call, as that is the way it has been portrayed in every church that I have ever been to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brakeman Posted February 2, 2010 Author Share Posted February 2, 2010 OH AM and this: "I would still argue that regardless of the context, it is still a practice that is about moving beyond your own thoughts of the mundane towards the more 'transcendent', in that sense." I looked up the definition of transcendent just to be sure of my understanding, and the dictionary said "being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge". I don't think there is any reason to care about anything that is transcendent, and If I could contact it or experience it, it then wouldn't be transcendent, would it? Anyway, I'm definitely the wrong type of guy to be discussing that type of issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted February 2, 2010 Super Moderator Share Posted February 2, 2010 God, to many people is not some gift-giving Santa Clause in the sky, nor some blood-demanding anthropomorphic volcano deity. True. Everyone who believes in a god by necessity defines it to their liking or psychological needs. However, we're talking about the Christian god, and the above description is a pretty good fit. Christians generally take all their god knowledge from the accepted canon. There are lots of other "spiritual" texts to look at, but that would be getting away from Christianity, whose instruction manual simply says pray to God through Jesus and the prayer will be answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 AM, I agree that prayer for Christian Masters became meditation probably because petitioning prayer is soon proved useless to anyone paying attention. And there is the fact that one rapidly runs out of things to say when the other party is not holding up his end of the conversation. However, petitioning prayer is what Jesus is reported to have taught when his disciples asked for instructions. I don't think the Gospels give any meditation instruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Why does god not grant prayers of biblical clarity? I mean why would god not grant full understanding of the entire bible upon such prayers by christians? Why would it be necessary to spend a lifetime studying the bible? Oh, but those prayers ARE answered. Pray this (be sure to be in some sort of groveling position with hands properly folded...or else): "Hey god, I want to understand your stupid book better. How about it? M'kay? M'kay." Now once that's done you will, immediately if not sooner, have perfect clarity when it comes to that book. Here's the kicker though. Just for shits and grins everyone gets a slightly different take crammed into their heads. Some are close enough so they can tolerate one another for short periods (usually about an hour or so each Sunday and maybe about that same amount of time on Wednesdays and variable lengths of time at other times if they don't talk about the book too much but instead eat foods brought from home, or the store if they say it's brought from home). If they're not very close they'll fight and go to separate places on Sunday but they can maybe live near one another or in the same town and so on. All these people will then accuse the rest of NOT having perfect understanding of the book which is why they start to believe they don't possess this ability. And so they pray for an ability they already have which results in getting it over again but they don't notice so they think they got nothing at all. It's actually very funny, from the gods point of view, when you think about it. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 Here's the kicker though. Just for shits and grins everyone gets a slightly different take crammed into their heads. Some are close enough so they can tolerate one another for short periods (usually about an hour or so each Sunday and maybe about that same amount of time on Wednesdays and variable lengths of time at other times if they don't talk about the book too much but instead eat foods brought from home, or the store if they say it's brought from home). If they're not very close they'll fight and go to separate places on Sunday but they can maybe live near one another or in the same town and so on. From the News of the Weird Gone on to Their Just Rewards In Dadeville, Ala., in 1999, Mr. Gabel Taylor, 38, who had just prevailed in an informal Bible-quoting contest, was shot to death by the angry loser. [Knoxville News-Sentinel, 10-6-98] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev R Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I don't use fancy words, prose, or allegories to dress up my appreciation of the nature of the world. I don't communicate with nature other than to yell at the blackbirds and the occasional stray cat. "Communing" with nature means to me just sitting in the grass, smelling the clean air and relaxing. That's all it has ever meant. I don't have any imaginary "Soul", just me and my little old mind here. excellent work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 From the News of the Weird Gone on to Their Just Rewards In Dadeville, Ala., in 1999, Mr. Gabel Taylor, 38, who had just prevailed in an informal Bible-quoting contest, was shot to death by the angry loser. [Knoxville News-Sentinel, 10-6-98] Oh. Hrrmmmm... *tada* mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 AM, I agree that prayer for Christian Masters became meditation probably because petitioning prayer is soon proved useless to anyone paying attention. That's funny. In a sense that would be true. It would be called growing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 It doesn't really matter a lick, but it sort of drives me nuts that you can't see that the foolishness of these sorts of contradictions either point to no God, or to one that is not quite stable himself. Challenge for you Chef. If you lived 300 years ago as a scientist and someone was trying to explain to you that they had a dream and the man explained things to you and called it Quantum physics. This man wrote it down and was trying to explain it in relative terms. Would you have understood it then? I doubt it because there were certain things in relation that would've made it sound crazy. People say the Bible has evolved, the interpretation has changed, the message keeps changing. Well, of course it has. Why? Because when it was spoken, it was not spoken for that time and as the time approaches, things within the book hold more water, bring more light than in another era. Example (which I don't necessarily agree with) Watch those that are in flight, when the harvest comes is what Christ said. Now, we all know flight there meant travel. Yet, the rapturers will tell you that when we get snatched up in the air, vanish (Cor) that according to Christ, planes may fall to the ground. So, to say the perfect word of God has to perfect for 2000 years ago would in itself make it not a perfect word from God, but sense it was written and comprehended differently throughout many eras, generations, ages, it does hold water for me because even for my own personal life, in 2012AD, with the world as it is, it relates, especially the end time scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted February 3, 2010 Share Posted February 3, 2010 I would still argue that regardless of the context, it is still a practice that is about moving beyond your own thoughts of the mundane towards the more 'transcendent', in that sense. Religion in the form of Christianity with it's prophetic components is like the example I gave above to Chef. Another example, a Rubek's cube. Have you ever done one? It's a certain pattern around other patterns to get to the result, all uniformity of the colors. That's why I like Isaac Newton's take of Biblical prophecy (see signature). Prophecy shows His providence. This can correlate into what I was saying to Chef. Also, with that rubik's cube. Originally, the ones that solved it were supposedly genius. Now, that we know the mechanics, it is a simple game of who can do it the fastest. This only within 25-35 year span. Now, take Rubik's cube (physical thing) replace it with the Bible, prophecies, Christ's parables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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