I Should Have Thought Of This Twenty-Something Years Ago

[alexander]

Hello all! Happy New Year and Happy February!

 

I was driving down Martin Luther King yesterday enjoying the radio when a beat up car cut me off. When I looked to the right )where the car was), I saw a church named "Church of the Master". Needless to say, it's a (obviously... look at the street name) Black Christian entertainment venue... I meant church.

 

Oh wow, the lightbulbs lit up in my head. Not only is Christianity a bunch of hogwash, as far as Black people are concerned, that's the MASTER'S religion. And yet all of them can be found at "chuhch" every Sunday, without fail, handing over their hard earned money to poverty pimps like Creflow Dollar ("flow", "dollar") and T.D. Jake$ and Joel Ol$teen and Bi$hop Eddie Long (pretend the E is a Euro sign and the L is the pound sign).

 

Then I thought about all the time I spent in the madrassa -- I meant Christian Fundy School. Never did it occur to me to ask the Bible teacher this:

 

"If God made us all equal and loves us all equally, how come white people get everything and black people get nothing? Apparently God hates Black people."

 

That was pre-Obama and pre-Michael Jordan and before some Christians dragged James Byrd behind the back of a truck and ripped his head off. Unlike the last time I posted on here, I now live in the unbelievably racist, fat, undereducated, illiterate, Republican-loving, Gawd-fearing, pork-eating, high-blood-pressure having, diabetes ("diabetus" according to Wilford Brimley)-having, greasy-food loving, Confederate-flag-flying, minority-hating south. This is the same south where I went to the madrassa.

 

Goddamnit. If I had thought of that earlier, I wouldn't have wasted close to three decades of my life.

 

I also noticed that when I'm in rich areas, I hardly see a church, but when I'm in the poor or minority area (doesn't have to be black), there's a church within a half mile of another church. God loves minorities but won't give any abundance; isn't that right Haiti? Has anyone else noticed the lack of anything coming from the Catholic Church even though 96% of Haitians are (were) Catholic? As I'm sure everyone here knows, they have *PLENTY* of money, why else is their corporate trademark keys of silver and gold? They hired the Spanish to go steal it from Mesoamerica!

[The-Captain]

Along the same lines I never could understand how some African Americans could be so zealous about retracing their roots, could expound upon the myriad indignities heaped upon them by slavery, could lament the destruction of their culture, would want to move back to their people's original ways going so far as to trade out their "slave names" for traditional ones, and yet never question that the religion imposed upon them was the right one.

[OpheliaGinger]

That was pre-Obama and pre-Michael Jordan and before some Christians dragged James Byrd behind the back of a truck and ripped his head off. Unlike the last time I posted on here, I now live in the unbelievably racist, fat, undereducated, illiterate, Republican-loving, Gawd-fearing, pork-eating, high-blood-pressure having, diabetes ("diabetus" according to Wilford Brimley)-having, greasy-food loving, Confederate-flag-flying, minority-hating south. This is the same south where I went to the madrassa.

 

My sentiments exactly. I live right in the middle of what you just described and I cringe every time I see some redneck with a confederate flag plastered on their truck. "It's heritage," they proclaim--a heritage of bigotry and outright racism. They sneer at me for being a vegetarian who prefers fresh steamed vegetables over anything butt clogging fried in fat. Rednecks are the most irritating bunch I have ever been around; they are so rude, and even spit snuff right in the middle of class.

[buffettphan]

I always wondered why any African-American in today's society would accept the very religion that was used to justify slavery...and whose holy book gives specific instructions on how to beat a slave.

[florduh]

I thought the black Christian thing kind of odd too. Of all the tools used to keep a people "down" the Christian religion was right up there.

 

The strange thing is that the small pockets of black religious revolt are people turning to Islam of all things!

[alexander]

That was pre-Obama and pre-Michael Jordan and before some Christians dragged James Byrd behind the back of a truck and ripped his head off. Unlike the last time I posted on here, I now live in the unbelievably racist, fat, undereducated, illiterate, Republican-loving, Gawd-fearing, pork-eating, high-blood-pressure having, diabetes ("diabetus" according to Wilford Brimley)-having, greasy-food loving, Confederate-flag-flying, minority-hating south. This is the same south where I went to the madrassa.

 

My sentiments exactly. I live right in the middle of what you just described and I cringe every time I see some redneck with a confederate flag plastered on their truck. "It's heritage," they proclaim--a heritage of bigotry and outright racism. They sneer at me for being a vegetarian who prefers fresh steamed vegetables over anything butt clogging fried in fat. Rednecks are the most irritating bunch I have ever been around; they are so rude, and even spit snuff right in the middle of class.

 

People still chew snuff?! I swear I am in a time warp! Well don't worry too much about those vegetables because those same ignorami that are laughing at you now are the same ones that, if they make it to 50, are so ill that they have to use public health services (the same ones they vote AGAINST) and cause everyone else's insurance to go up. I get the same responses from just drinking soy milk (great stuff!) or grilled chicken instead of fried chicken.

 

I always wondered why any African-American in today's society would accept the very religion that was used to justify slavery...and whose holy book gives specific instructions on how to beat a slave.

 

Careful my friend, that's dangerous logic. The Black Religious Though Police will be after you, especially because you are correct. And don't forget, its not just African-Americans, even in Africa the same thing happens. Like at Nigeria which is the most corrupt country in the world: it also has a very high number of Catholics. Whaa? Catholics and corruption in the same place? Perish the thought!

[The-Captain]

Yeah, cause Islam never oppressed the black man

[alexander]

I thought the black Christian thing kind of odd too. Of all the tools used to keep a people "down" the Christian religion was right up there.

 

The strange thing is that the small pockets of black religious revolt are people turning to Islam of all things!

 

 

Yeah, cause Islam never oppressed the black man

 

I hear ya, but Islam was already in West Africa prior to the triangular trade. But that's all the pass it can be given. Arab slave traders were just as much of a bunch of fucking bastards as Christian traders. In fact, they were worse because not only did they trade slaves, they made sexual slaves out of them. In the west, it was mostly for money.

[alexander]

I thought the black Christian thing kind of odd too. Of all the tools used to keep a people "down" the Christian religion was right up there.

 

The strange thing is that the small pockets of black religious revolt are people turning to Islam of all things!

 

 

Yeah, cause Islam never oppressed the black man

 

I hear ya, but Islam was already in West Africa prior to the triangular trade. This is why you had slaves that refused to work on Fridays and slaves named "Friday". But that's all the pass it can be given. Arab slave traders were just as much of a bunch of fucking bastards as Christian traders. In fact, they were worse because not only did they trade slaves, they made sexual slaves out of them. In the west, it was mostly for money.

[TedGresham]

That was pre-Obama and pre-Michael Jordan and before some Christians dragged James Byrd behind the back of a truck and ripped his head off. Unlike the last time I posted on here, I now live in the unbelievably racist, fat, undereducated, illiterate, Republican-loving, Gawd-fearing, pork-eating, high-blood-pressure having, diabetes ("diabetus" according to Wilford Brimley)-having, greasy-food loving, Confederate-flag-flying, minority-hating south. This is the same south where I went to the madrassa.

 

My sentiments exactly. I live right in the middle of what you just described and I cringe every time I see some redneck with a confederate flag plastered on their truck. "It's heritage," they proclaim--a heritage of bigotry and outright racism. They sneer at me for being a vegetarian who prefers fresh steamed vegetables over anything butt clogging fried in fat. Rednecks are the most irritating bunch I have ever been around; they are so rude, and even spit snuff right in the middle of class.

It's the Deep South. Arg. Rednecks and confederate signs and trucks so high you can see the front door of their trailer under the chasis. Um, ur, but I live in a "trailer" too. I'm guilty of eating the "fried in fat" foods too, on occasion, though my preference were I wealthy would be sushi 3x daily. I don't drive a pickup now but I'm going to get one pretty soon. Our rutted dirt drive isn't made for sleek little fuel efficient cars.

 

I grew up in a world and a home where the "N" word was commonplace. I have a vivid memory of when the KKK was on the move and it headed towards our town and the white folk met the caravan at the city limits. From what I remember being told our good city founders stopped them so they would not stir things up because our "N"'s knew their place. Jeeez. Jasper is only fifty miles from here. The attitudes of the rednecks who pull that man behind the truck is a stone's throw. From the time I was a kid until now I have always wondered why? Everything in Sunday School said people should be treated different.

 

Unfortunately, though, what folks not from 'round these parts tend to do is lump our diet and our lifestyle with attitudes. One has nothing to do with the other. Southern Fried chicken, corn bread and pickups do not translate into hating "colored" people or bigotry. It's not what we eat, where we live or what we wear. It's who we are. Who someone is depends very much on how they were raised and how they deal with what they were taught. Southern bigots think that way because it was drilled into their heads from birth by parents who had it drilled into their heads from birth from parents who ..... etc. Bigotry is not limited to the south. Many folks in the north were just as bigoted, or more so, than southerners, they just didn't need the "negro" for labor. Our American heritage is British and everybody knows how kind the Brits were around the globe to the "darker" races. Some of us are fortunate enough to have awaken to the horrors and cruelty of bigotry and prejudice. Most have not.

 

What bigoted southerners do is stereotype the world. They label people. It's no different anywhere. What's the difference between labeling people because they are rednecks and labeling rednecks because they have a different diet or drive a pickup? Speak against the things that are unacceptable, things like bigotry and foolish beliefs or rude behavior, but don't be just as bigoted as the bigots are by insulting an entire culture because it does not fit your lifestyle. Sneering is not limited to the south. Neither is condescending attitudes. I don't care what you eat, how you dress, or what you drive. What matters is who you are. If you're not a compassionate and non-judgmental person it doesn't matter what you consume or if you run ten miles a day and drive an electric car.

 

I loathe the attitudes of many people where I live. Christian fundamentalism and political conservatism is horrible and pervasive. My vote here counts nothing at all. Never has. But I am a Texan and a son of the south. I'm not proud of the south like those rednecks waving the confederate banner (I wave the Texas flag myself) but southern foods, dress, mannerisms, and lifestyle are part of who I am. I'm not ashamed of it, either. I am a bit offended, then, when people assume that I am a bigot and a fool merely because in all appearances I'm southern and not living "high on the hog" trying to be someone I'm not.

 

If you ever want to change how people think--and this will be necessary to establish a better world--look to the heart and mind, care for the person behind the prejudice, and stop thinking everybody who eats fried chicken or beans and cornbread, drives a truck or lives in a trailer in the back woods is an idiot.

[Moxie]

I am "African American" and I don't understand why black people cling to this religion. I mean, they do it out of tradition, but still; if one is going to believe in a deity, choose one that does not have a "chosen people" and/or a "cursed generation."

[Moxie]

I also find it interesting that Black History month is the shortest month of the year.

[buffettphan]

I also find it interesting that Black History month is the shortest month of the year.

 

One thing I find quite telling is that here in Virginia, Martin Luther King Day is combined with the (Robert E.) Lee- (Stonewall) Jackson holiday. Maybe it's the same elsewhere too. I don't know.

[alexander]

I am "African American" and I don't understand why black people cling to this religion. I mean, they do it out of tradition, but still; if one is going to believe in a deity, choose one that does not have a "chosen people" and/or a "cursed generation."

 

Amen to that!

 

I also find it interesting that Black History month is the shortest month of the year.

 

Carter G. Woodson chose to honor Lincoln as well, and his birthday was in February. O Carter, if only you knew Lincoln wasn't interested in freeing you, and really wanted you back to Africa...

 

I also find it interesting that Black History month is the shortest month of the year.

 

One thing I find quite telling is that here in Virginia, Martin Luther King Day is combined with the (Robert E.) Lee- (Stonewall) Jackson holiday. Maybe it's the same elsewhere too. I don't know.

 

Yeah, that's a bunch of horseshit. Virginia is the only state with a street dedicated to losers... Lee and Jackson were both losers.

[buffettphan]

I also find it interesting that Black History month is the shortest month of the year.

 

One thing I find quite telling is that here in Virginia, Martin Luther King Day is combined with the (Robert E.) Lee- (Stonewall) Jackson holiday. Maybe it's the same elsewhere too. I don't know.

 

Yeah, that's a bunch of horseshit. Virginia is the only state with a street dedicated to losers... Lee and Jackson were both losers.

 

You must be referring to the (in)famous Monument Avenue in Richmond. Between that, the blatant racism, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Michael Farris, and their "universities" it can be quite embarrassing living here!

[Vendredie]

I also find it interesting that Black History month is the shortest month of the year.

 

One thing I find quite telling is that here in Virginia, Martin Luther King Day is combined with the (Robert E.) Lee- (Stonewall) Jackson holiday. Maybe it's the same elsewhere too. I don't know.

 

Yeah, that's a bunch of horseshit. Virginia is the only state with a street dedicated to losers... Lee and Jackson were both losers.

 

You must be referring to the (in)famous Monument Avenue in Richmond. Between that, the blatant racism, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Michael Farris, and their "universities" it can be quite embarrassing living here!

Hampton. Freaking. Roads. Churches next door to each other, even across the street from each other- the Baptist church I went to in Chesapeake was next door to another Baptist church! It's also the most segregated place I've ever seen in my life, and I live in fucking rural North Carolina (which is why I'm in Hampton Roads so often). There's no "colored" schools, but holy shit. There's a competition every year at one high school- and all of the bands there are mostly white. We started competing in a small local circuit- against small, mostly-black bands. My school's band was pretty much the only white band there. Guess we can't have white kids with black kids in a marching band competition

[The-Captain]

Yeah, that's a bunch of horseshit. Virginia is the only state with a street dedicated to losers... Lee and Jackson were both losers.

 

Aw nah com'on there son, Rohbet E Lee was the finest gentleman that evah lived. Jes ole Grant stole his sword and he was too polite to bring it up in tha conversation.

[alexander]

Yeah, that's a bunch of horseshit. Virginia is the only state with a street dedicated to losers... Lee and Jackson were both losers.

 

Aw nah com'on there son, Rohbet E Lee was the finest gentleman that evah lived. Jes ole Grant stole his sword and he was too polite to bring it up in tha conversation.

 

Hahaha! Yeah right!

 

My question (trying to keep it in line with the name of this site) is when are all these so-called Christians going to admit that their forebears and their religion as a whole, including Catholics and especially the Jews, was complicit in all parts of trans-Atlantic slavery? Wasn't the Southern Baptist conference or whatever formed just so the church could remain segregated?

 

Oh I forgot, the Holey Babble says its ok.

 

Not to be outdone, however, the Dutch Reformed Chuuch gave birth to apartheid, and Jews ("Gawd's chosen people"; how can Gawd love everyone AND have chosen people?) picked up the Nazi playbook and are using it now. The Holey Babble says that's okay.

[Vomit Comet]

Wasn't the Southern Baptist conference or whatever formed just so the church could remain segregated?

 

Shit, no! It was so they could defend the God-ordained institution of slavery.

 

This was the 1850s and commenced the schism of sorts between "Southern Protestants" and "Northern Protestants" that more or less stains American civil religion to this day. The Northern Protestants were urban-based and were concerned with social reform and progressivism. For example, Jane Addams' Hull House and the Chicago School of Sociology largely stemmed from this vein of things. The Southern Protestants, on the other hand, were adamant defenders of slavery and the Southern way of life; social reform was seen as a worldly trifle at best, and the focus shifted to keeping the Christian troops squared away morally, not to mention that old premodern Antebellum quasi-feudal way of life.

 

The Northern Protestants became marginalized in the 1920s with the first Red Scare. Their brand of urban progressivism became associated with socialism and communism, and in the minds of many Americans remains so. Basically, these became today's "liberal Christians." These are increasingly marginalized and ineffectual. The statistics demonstrate this beyond a shadow of a doubt, and have been since the 1970s. Fundies have been on the up-and-up since the 60s while liberal Christians, contrary to their hopes and aspirations at the dawn of the Age of Aquarius, have been in decline.

[OpheliaGinger]

Christians try to convolute the whole slavery issue, i.e. slavery in the Bible wasn't as bad as slavery in recent history and the American slave owners that were Christian weren't True Christians ^TM, but they completely ignore that there are verses in their bible that dictate how hard one can beat their slave.

[Vomit Comet]

Well, I don't know about better or worse, but the classical world (for the most part) practiced a different sort of slavery. In ancient Rome you ended up a slave because of debt (you'd sell yourself, or your kid) or because you were captured in war/conquest. Treatment of slaves varied quite a bit; for example, there was one Roman matron who would let her field slaves die of malnutrition because it was cheaper to buy new slaves than to feed them properly. However, I don't believe that people were born into slavery. Slavery in the South was chattel slavery; the entire slave race was basically treated like sentient livestock.

 

To me, the Bible isn't any better or worse than anyone else from that time regarding the "slavery" thing. To tell the ancient world that slavery was bad was like telling people in 1870s England that factories were bad. You can treat slaves/workers better, but the mode of production is all but impossible to transcend even conceptually for people stuck in that historic context. Granted, a few Greek thinkers decried slavery, but it was more or less like Marxists in the early 20th century decrying capitalism.

 

All this is to say that the Bible was a product of its times, rather than transcendent of its times.

[alexander]

Christians try to convolute the whole slavery issue, i.e. slavery in the Bible wasn't as bad as slavery in recent history and the American slave owners that were Christian weren't True Christians ^TM, but they completely ignore that there are verses in their bible that dictate how hard one can beat their slave.

 

So, beside being responsible for millions of wars and deaths and a period of virtually no scientific development, the Holey Babble not only condones slavery, but also gives instructions on how to beat slaves AND makes provisions for killing the defiant slave? Surely you jest!

 

That gives me a great idea for a Youtube video. I wonder if I can get it done before Black History Month ends? Too bad I don't have Adobe Premier and a better computer! The poverty pimp$ are going to explode like Mount Vesuvius. They'll probably just sing "Amazing Grace" by slaveholder-investor John Newton. I'd need help making the content because it needs to be short, hard-hitting and straight to the point.

 

Actually, I would really love to put up a billboard that says "you've been praying for Jesus to save you for 440+ years. He ain't coming because he doesn't exist. Now go out there and do for self."

[florduh]

Actually, I would really love to put up a billboard that says "you've been praying for Jesus to save you for 440+ years. He ain't coming because he doesn't exist. Now go out there and do for self."

Priceless.

[alexander]

Well, I don't know about better or worse, but the classical world (for the most part) practiced a different sort of slavery. In ancient Rome you ended up a slave because of debt (you'd sell yourself, or your kid) or because you were captured in war/conquest. Treatment of slaves varied quite a bit; for example, there was one Roman matron who would let her field slaves die of malnutrition because it was cheaper to buy new slaves than to feed them properly. However, I don't believe that people were born into slavery. Slavery in the South was chattel slavery; the entire slave race was basically treated like sentient livestock.

 

To me, the Bible isn't any better or worse than anyone else from that time regarding the "slavery" thing. To tell the ancient world that slavery was bad was like telling people in 1870s England that factories were bad. You can treat slaves/workers better, but the mode of production is all but impossible to transcend even conceptually for people stuck in that historic context. Granted, a few Greek thinkers decried slavery, but it was more or less like Marxists in the early 20th century decrying capitalism.

 

All this is to say that the Bible was a product of its times, rather than transcendent of its times.

 

Umm, so you're telling me that as late as the 1700s, beating the shit out of people (or killing them for no other reason except they look different or don't speak the same language *ahem*SPAIN*ahem*) would be common and thus accepted? I'm not talking the ancient world, I'm talking Christian America and how this foolishness affects the descendants of yesteryear's slaves; actually I'm talking everything from 1491 to February 3, 2010. If you think that a "holy" book which is the "word" of some supernatural can logically say "love everyone" while at the same time saying "there are chosen people" AND "there is a cursed generation", then I have some oceanfront property in Idaho AND a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you... really cheap... 1% APR for the first 10 years.

[Vomit Comet]

Umm, so you're telling me that as late as the 1700s, beating the shit out of people (or killing them for no other reason except they look different or don't speak the same language *ahem*SPAIN*ahem*) would be common and thus accepted?

 

Slavery was the mode of production in the ancient world. Just like debt peonage (peasantry) was the mode of production for the feudal world, and miserable proletarianization and mass urbanization was the mode of production for early modern times. We are the beneficiaries from centuries of hindsight, moral development, social movements and ideological struggles, and ultimately, cultural evolution.

 

 

I'm not talking the ancient world, I'm talking Christian America and how this foolishness affects the descendants of yesteryear's slaves

 

Well yeah. I wasn't disputing your point there.