Is The Christian God A Personal God?

[Abiyoyo]

Because I was alive and did not breathe before I was born and now I breathe Oxygen. That is a divine reason in and of itself.

 

 

If you can be alive with out oxygen, why do you bother? Breathing that is.

 

Or are you one of those reincarnated guys? Did you used to be Queen of England or a dung beetle in Bangladesh?

 

I never said I was alive without oxygen, I just didn't breathe in the womb, and now, I breathe. Fascinating isn't it.

[The-Captain]

Mind you YoYo, it's not necessarily that there is not a God, just simply that his non-presence makes him irrelevant to my life.

[Abiyoyo]

Mind you YoYo, it's not necessarily that there is not a God, just simply that his non-presence makes him irrelevant to my life.

 

An Israelite indeed!!! Doc, that was one of the most reasonable, intelligent responses I have seen around these boards in a while. Hats off to you.

 

And, for my rebuttal. I have none Life sucks sometimes and feels very lonely sometimes. I can relate to that.

[Shyone]

I see your point, but just want to point out that to God, humanity may be different than the way we perceive it to be because He is immortal.

 

Do you understand my point? I say God sees life and death different and doesn't react because it's not the time for Him to act (or it may be) but in His providence He acts accordingly.

So God is indifferent to human life because he's immortal. He doesn't give a damn about death or suffering.

 

Why is that so different from what the preachers claim?

 

Deut 23: 14. For the LORD your God moves about in your camp to protect you and to deliver your enemies to you.

 

1 Chron: 10. Jabez cried out to the God of Israel, "Oh, that you would bless me and enlarge my territory! Let your hand be with me, and keep me from harm so that I will be free from pain." And God granted his request.

 

Psalms 12: 7. O LORD, you will keep us safe and protect us from such people forever.

 

Psalms 41: 1. Blessed is he who has regard for the weak; the LORD delivers him in times of trouble.

2. The LORD will protect him and preserve his life

 

Psalms 59: 1. Deliver me from my enemies, O God; protect me from those who rise up against me.

2. Deliver me from evildoers and save me from bloodthirsty men.

 

Psalms 140: 1. Rescue me, O LORD, from evil men; protect me from men of violence,

 

Matt 4: 24. News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them.

 

Matt 8: 6. "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."

7. Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."

 

Mark 5: 29. Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.

 

Matt 10: 1. He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

 

The fact is that humans care and do what we can, God doesn't but could do everything, and that makes us superior morally. To a nonexistent being.

 

I have already given quotes that said that Jesus and God would do anything asked in his name, but nothing is done when asked according to the scriptures. Nothing.

 

I know why, but you must rationalize.

[dagnarus]

Then answer the first sentence I posted....here: In retrospect, does the fact that we all tell a slightly different salvation tale present itself as evidence for a personal God?

 

 

......artful dodger indeed.

 

Do you actually believe that this is in any way compelling? I essentially believe that your personal God is your personal imaginary friend, you having a slightly different salvation experience does not contradict this. What's more the fact that each of your different personal Gods tells you completely different things is taken to be a prove of it.

[dagnarus]

 

 

But why would an all-powerful, all-benevolent and all-knowing God entrust relief of starvation and suffering to people who obviously cannot get the job done? It is not sufficient to say, "God has a plan, people just don't follow it." That does not relieve the Christian god of responsibility for causing suffering through neglect.

 

Isn't one of the standards of a follower of Christ to feed the poor, have faith, spread the Gospel of Christ?

 

Your asking why God lets people starve, He doesn't. God sends people all over the world to many places to feed and care for the poor. Is that not good enough? Should he come down from his Holy castle and spread food himself to all the afflicted?

 

Wouldn't that deaf the whole purpose of Christ and God Biblically?

 

When in the Bible has God came down from the heavens and fed people?

 

Biblically, God has always worked through people on Earth to provide for others.

 

The bible promises that God will provide food and clothing to all those who follow him Matthew 6:25-34. Christians in third world countries still starve to death. Whether or not God were to provide them with food directly, or he simply to provide food through human means is besides the point. The follower starved to death. God failed in his promise to give him food. If you considered God as being capable of backing up this promise you would probably be willing to sell all your possessions and give them to the poor, but as it stands I don't think you would.

[Kathlene]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Pretty much what I expected. It did however turn to a debate on the starving in the world, whereas I was kind of hoping people would comment more on what they thought of the story. Did you all think it was just pure coincidence that this incident happened?

 

Regarding the starving in the world. I think there is enough wealth in the world to feed the ones in lack. Does this happen? No. Why doesn't it happen? Well most of you in here seem to blame God. People, God gave us the choice on who and what type of person we wanted to be. There are starving people in the world because most people on the planet don't give a toss. And when aide is sent it gets stolen or is corrupted by power hungry crazies who really dont care about anyone starving in their own country. See what happens? Greed, selfishness, power, money are the commodities of today's society. Why blame that on God? Why not place the blame where it should fairly and squarely fall...on US!! We the human race are the things that hinder the release of equality into the world. Why aren't you blaming people in the world for not caring enough to see action done? Even when action is taken, time and time again something happens on the other end for the provisions to not get where they are meant to. The world is evil and full of greed and selfishness. Why is everyone so surprised by this?

 

The whole point within that story was I think that God wanted to show this woman that she could have faith, not whinging and complaining. I think He was teaching her a bit about who His character is. Her mindset was one of lack, not thankfulness in the God who provides for her.

[The-Captain]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Pretty much what I expected. It did however turn to a debate on the starving in the world, whereas I was kind of hoping people would comment more on what they thought of the story. Did you all think it was just pure coincidence that this incident happened?

 

Regrettably yes. I would look at it as coincidence, but then who can really say with authority in such matters? What I'm more interested in is why some are inclined to see coincidence, flukes and phenomena while others see plans, portents and driven events.

 

I think He was teaching her a bit about who His character is. Her mindset was one of lack, not thankfulness in the God who provides for her.

 

Again I think this is more indicative of your mindset as a person. I viewed it more as a woman taking an occurrence to reconcile incompatible ideas.

[Shyone]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Pretty much what I expected. It did however turn to a debate on the starving in the world, whereas I was kind of hoping people would comment more on what they thought of the story. Did you all think it was just pure coincidence that this incident happened?

 

Regarding the starving in the world. I think there is enough wealth in the world to feed the ones in lack. Does this happen? No. Why doesn't it happen? Well most of you in here seem to blame God. People, God gave us the choice on who and what type of person we wanted to be. There are starving people in the world because most people on the planet don't give a toss. And when aide is sent it gets stolen or is corrupted by power hungry crazies who really dont care about anyone starving in their own country. See what happens? Greed, selfishness, power, money are the commodities of today's society. Why blame that on God? Why not place the blame where it should fairly and squarely fall...on US!! We the human race are the things that hinder the release of equality into the world. Why aren't you blaming people in the world for not caring enough to see action done? Even when action is taken, time and time again something happens on the other end for the provisions to not get where they are meant to. The world is evil and full of greed and selfishness. Why is everyone so surprised by this?

 

The whole point within that story was I think that God wanted to show this woman that she could have faith, not whinging and complaining. I think He was teaching her a bit about who His character is. Her mindset was one of lack, not thankfulness in the God who provides for her.

So you're saying that people should help people.

 

That's what I've been saying because there is no God to do anything for anyone.

 

His character? It doesn't do any good for anyone that really needs it. Strange that starvation is not geographically evenly distributed.

 

But he gives out strawberries?

[florduh]

I was kind of hoping people would comment more on what they thought of the story. Did you all think it was just pure coincidence that this incident happened?

I don't think it happened at all. It sounds just like the countless smarmy Christian propaganda e-mails everybody gets.

 

Seriously, do you think providing free strawberries to a woman too cheap to pay the going price is some kind of answer to prayer or need?

[Kathlene]

I was kind of hoping people would comment more on what they thought of the story. Did you all think it was just pure coincidence that this incident happened?

I don't think it happened at all. It sounds just like the countless smarmy Christian propaganda e-mails everybody gets.

 

Seriously, do you think providing free strawberries to a woman too cheap to pay the going price is some kind of answer to prayer or need?

You missed my point florduh.

My point was that it was God teaching her about His character. Not necassarily about a prayer or need.

The whole point within that story was I think that God wanted to show this woman that she could have faith, not whinging and complaining. I think He was teaching her a bit about who His character is. Her mindset was one of lack, not thankfulness in the God who provides for her.

[florduh]

I thought answering prayer and filling needs were part of the character. How is her having faith and being thankful about HIS character?

[Realist]

Abiyoyo!

 

You say:

 

Who are we to declare there is no God?

 

let's state this another way:

 

Who are YOU to declare there are no GODS?

 

See ... you totally ignore the extent indoctrination has played in making that statement!

 

 

Because I was alive and did not breathe before I was born and now I breathe Oxygen. That is a divine reason in and of itself.

 

.... But there you see Abiyoyo! Just like I thought ... your mind is indoctrinated to believe only YOUR god could have done that!! Was it not the Egyptian god "Osiris" that was the god of life??

[dagnarus]

Regarding the starving in the world. I think there is enough wealth in the world to feed the ones in lack. Does this happen? No. Why doesn't it happen? Well most of you in here seem to blame God. People, God gave us the choice on who and what type of person we wanted to be. There are starving people in the world because most people on the planet don't give a toss. And when aide is sent it gets stolen or is corrupted by power hungry crazies who really dont care about anyone starving in their own country. See what happens? Greed, selfishness, power, money are the commodities of today's society. Why blame that on God? Why not place the blame where it should fairly and squarely fall...on US!! We the human race are the things that hinder the release of equality into the world. Why aren't you blaming people in the world for not caring enough to see action done? Even when action is taken, time and time again something happens on the other end for the provisions to not get where they are meant to. The world is evil and full of greed and selfishness. Why is everyone so surprised by this?

 

The whole point within that story was I think that God wanted to show this woman that she could have faith, not whinging and complaining. I think He was teaching her a bit about who His character is. Her mindset was one of lack, not thankfulness in the God who provides for her.

 

Who caused the Haiti earthquake was that humans, Bubonic plague, Ebola, the famine which caused all the Egyptians to sell themselves to Pharoah, you can say that all the wars and other evils in the world are caused by humanity but that directly contradicts the bible when it says.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The God you speak of is not the Christian God. You know the christian God does not exist. This is why you are not willing to sell all your possessions and give them to the poor. If you truly believed in this God, you would be willing to do it. Why, because Jesus says that if you follow him that he will look after you, making certain that you will not starve. But the fact is that historically the majority of people who have actually done this have starved.

 

That said you are quite correct. It isn't God fault. It's peoples fault. Greedy, Selfish, people. Your God has absolutely nothing do with it. Because he isn't real. You have to actually exist and do something in order to be responsible for these things. Stop muddying the waters with your non-existent god.

[Dagan]

Regarding the starving in the world. I think there is enough wealth in the world to feed the ones in lack. Does this happen? No. Why doesn't it happen? Well most of you in here seem to blame God. People, God gave us the choice on who and what type of person we wanted to be. There are starving people in the world because most people on the planet don't give a toss. And when aide is sent it gets stolen or is corrupted by power hungry crazies who really dont care about anyone starving in their own country. See what happens? Greed, selfishness, power, money are the commodities of today's society. Why blame that on God? Why not place the blame where it should fairly and squarely fall...on US!! We the human race are the things that hinder the release of equality into the world. Why aren't you blaming people in the world for not caring enough to see action done? Even when action is taken, time and time again something happens on the other end for the provisions to not get where they are meant to. The world is evil and full of greed and selfishness. Why is everyone so surprised by this?

 

You know, the big problem with this argument is that it backfires big time.

 

The problems of the world are our fault, I agree.

 

What's the solution? We have to start caring and helping others around us.

 

If this actually happens, what did God do? Absolutely nothing. We did it. Without him.

 

If two billion Christians haven't solved the world's problems by now, if 33 per cent of the world's population can't follow the most basic teachings of Jesus of helping others in poverty, it's up to everyone else. Again, if this happens, God had nothing to do with it.

[Vixentrox]

Abiyoyo!

 

You say:

 

Who are we to declare there is no God?

 

let's state this another way:

 

Who are YOU to declare there are no GODS?

 

See ... you totally ignore the extent indoctrination has played in making that statement!

 

 

Because I was alive and did not breathe before I was born and now I breathe Oxygen. That is a divine reason in and of itself.

So, any creator god would do then. There are many world wide don't you know....

[oddbird1963]

 

I say, Come on God. You say, God has taken to long, he is monstrous.

 

 

You so easily gloss over the suffering of real flesh and blood people for a theological concept you can't see or speak to or feel with your senses. It's almost like you don't believe there are actually people out there dying. Or that those people don't matter.

 

Maybe that's the whole point of christian theology. To make believers somehow forget or not care about the lives of the starving so that indignant people won't rise up and overthrow their christian rulers and christian clergy.

 

And how quickly you forget the words omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent . So God is immortal and he has a different perspective. And thus it is okay for him to let these children and impoverished adults die slow, withering gnawing, undignified deaths. Sounds like you are tacitly admitting that your god is not benevolent.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

A truly personal God would not be so picky on dealing with the issue of human suffering.

 

 

Just let the animals kill themselves. Hey, tearing people to shreds by throwing them with a few lions was very humorous and popular in the time of Christ. But, you are right, God doesn't care about human suffering.

And he likes people in africa, dying of drought but then again as they say, believers create there are own version of god. SPAG

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

I have to admit the story left a bad taste in my mouth but I had to think it over for a while. I guess it seemed the whole telling of it comes off as self absorbed. I agree that the strawberries are incidental and its the knowledge of God she feels she has gained that is important. This knowledge is more valuable than strawberries, but its not something given to everyone. Or people are given different and conflicting messages about God an thus there are different religions, sects, etc.

 

I am reminded of a line from Ladyhawke, "Excuse me, but I talk to God all the time, and no offense but he never mentioned you"

 

As someone mentioned, this is all examples of SPAG. I do agree that this makes "God" personal but what that means beyond the subjective mind of the individual I do not know.

 

For instance I talked to God a lot through my troubled teenage years. All responses I felt I received led me away from the church, the bible and Christianity. After a little time, knowledge and life experience I was led to this conclusion: "its human beings that support and uplift you when everything is shit. Human beings that love you, human beings that forgive you when you mess up. Its also human beings that can send you into a mental hell. Human beings that can take away your free will. We are all the angels and demons, gods and devils that ever were." I talked to myself and my self answered. SPAG.

 

As far as the problem of suffering in the world, I think more than wondering why God doesn't just step in and do something, I wonder about those that worship him and pray to him for assistance - perhaps rain to water their crops so they can eat, or that their animals will foal. It will either rain or not rain, their animal will either foal or not foal. Their faith and their prayers do not effect the outcome. Its the same outcome if they pray to Allah, or Zeus or perform a voodoo ritual or asked no one. If the characteristics of god can't be distinguished from nothing, or the evidence of God can't be distinguished from coincidence or voices in the head, it seems like that is all it is. But no matter what events will only confirm the personal views already held by the individual.

 

In conclusion this is a nice story about a woman giving a stranger strawberries. There is poverty because not enough people are giving to those who need it due to logistic problems or human greed. Many people die from starvation, some get food and survive. People helping people. People not helping people. If the personal god of our minds encourages more people to help so be it, but it seems like it more often serves as an excuse to not and isn't necessary to begin with. Either way, there isn't a cause and effect relationship established to prove God in these sort of anecdotes. I can not prove God was not talking to those women but their experience with it says very little about the objective reality of God.

 

Pat Robertson's God caused an earthquake. Fred Phelp's God hates gays. Its all personal gods as far as I can tell.

[Deva]

Regarding the starving in the world. I think there is enough wealth in the world to feed the ones in lack. Does this happen? No. Why doesn't it happen? Well most of you in here seem to blame God. People, God gave us the choice on who and what type of person we wanted to be. There are starving people in the world because most people on the planet don't give a toss. And when aide is sent it gets stolen or is corrupted by power hungry crazies who really dont care about anyone starving in their own country. See what happens? Greed, selfishness, power, money are the commodities of today's society. Why blame that on God? Why not place the blame where it should fairly and squarely fall...on US!! We the human race are the things that hinder the release of equality into the world. Why aren't you blaming people in the world for not caring enough to see action done? Even when action is taken, time and time again something happens on the other end for the provisions to not get where they are meant to. The world is evil and full of greed and selfishness. Why is everyone so surprised by this?

 

The whole point within that story was I think that God wanted to show this woman that she could have faith, not whinging and complaining. I think He was teaching her a bit about who His character is. Her mindset was one of lack, not thankfulness in the God who provides for her.

 

We all recognize that people don't get fed, partly because of the actions of other people. But wasn't the story also about God? Isn't God's character at issue? Why is it all our fault when there is a God who supposedly cares about humans?

[Realist]

And he likes people in africa, dying of drought but then again as they say, believers create there are own version of god. SPAG

 

.... and do not forget those sinful animals out their also he condemns to the same fate ... I guess man's sin gets the blame for this too!!!

[chefranden]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Pretty much what I expected. It did however turn to a debate on the starving in the world, whereas I was kind of hoping people would comment more on what they thought of the story. Did you all think it was just pure coincidence that this incident happened?

 

Regarding the starving in the world. I think there is enough wealth in the world to feed the ones in lack. Does this happen? No. Why doesn't it happen? Well most of you in here seem to blame God. People, God gave us the choice on who and what type of person we wanted to be. There are starving people in the world because most people on the planet don't give a toss. And when aide is sent it gets stolen or is corrupted by power hungry crazies who really dont care about anyone starving in their own country. See what happens? Greed, selfishness, power, money are the commodities of today's society. Why blame that on God? Why not place the blame where it should fairly and squarely fall...on US!! We the human race are the things that hinder the release of equality into the world. Why aren't you blaming people in the world for not caring enough to see action done? Even when action is taken, time and time again something happens on the other end for the provisions to not get where they are meant to. The world is evil and full of greed and selfishness. Why is everyone so surprised by this?

 

The whole point within that story was I think that God wanted to show this woman that she could have faith, not whinging and complaining. I think He was teaching her a bit about who His character is. Her mindset was one of lack, not thankfulness in the God who provides for her.

 

Well most of you in here seem to blame God. Here's a thing that Christians can't seem to grok. No one is blaming God for the condition of the world. That would be unfair to the poor non existent thingy. God is not really to blame for anything because God is not anything himself.

 

However, if God were real then he would be responsible for the evil in the world, because by definition God is the source of every thing. As it is written "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." You say that God uses these evil circumstances to show his character. And if he were real you would be right even though you come to the wrong conclusions. These circumstances would show him to be of an evil character.

 

Why would it show God to be of evil character? Well you said it your self. There are starving people because other people "don't give a toss". So you believe that people with the means to help others ought to help others if they are moral(good) beings. The same must be true of God of whom it is insisted comes our most perfect moral example. According to definition God has the means to help others and yet chooses not to. If people are evil for this non action then so is God.

 

You try to let God off the hook by saying God gave people a choice. Well lets say that he did. We have the choice via God's will to feed or not to feed the starving. That doesn't take away God's choice. God, if real, also has the choice to feed or not to feed the starving. In fact the act of feeding would be much easier for God to accomplish than it would be for humans. What is one of the hang ups about helping the Haitians right now? It's logistics. God, if real, could get food and healing there instantly but he chooses not to -- that is, if he is real, he has made the evil choice.

 

But God is not evil, because God is not.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

You know, the big problem with this argument is that it backfires big time.

 

The problems of the world are our fault, I agree.

 

What's the solution? We have to start caring and helping others around us.

 

If this actually happens, what did God do? Absolutely nothing. We did it. Without him.

 

If two billion Christians haven't solved the world's problems by now, if 33 per cent of the world's population can't follow the most basic teachings of Jesus of helping others in poverty, it's up to everyone else. Again, if this happens, God had nothing to do with it.

 

I think that is the entire point. If everyone sold everything they had except what they needed to survive, and gave the rest to people that are poor, suffering, etc; that WOULD be from God because it is not from us (obviously) and Jesus SAID this is exactly what WE are suppose to do.

 

So, you are incorrect.

[Abiyoyo]

 

I say, Come on God. You say, God has taken to long, he is monstrous.

 

 

You so easily gloss over the suffering of real flesh and blood people for a theological concept you can't see or speak to or feel with your senses. It's almost like you don't believe there are actually people out there dying. Or that those people don't matter.

 

Maybe that's the whole point of christian theology. To make believers somehow forget or not care about the lives of the starving so that indignant people won't rise up and overthrow their christian rulers and christian clergy.

 

And how quickly you forget the words omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent . So God is immortal and he has a different perspective. And thus it is okay for him to let these children and impoverished adults die slow, withering gnawing, undignified deaths. Sounds like you are tacitly admitting that your god is not benevolent.

 

 

You know, it's funny. I took a bit off from here and am reading through responses when I got to Kathlene's responses. I was thinking about this whole people suffering thing last few days and realized the same thing that Kathlene suggested.

 

WE are the reason people starve, not God. All the millionaires billionaires who do nothing, and even on a smaller scale, people with more than one human could ever need do nothing. People love their money.

[The-Captain]

WE are the reason people starve, not God. All the millionaires billionaires who do nothing, and even on a smaller scale, people with more than one human could ever need do nothing. People love their money.

 

That's what I always figured. Not God, not the Devil, just humans. Of course this implies that God does not interfere in his Creation, which contradicts a lot of Christian theology. But it's the only way that the existence of a God makes sense to me, especially when one considers the idea of "free will". A creator who gave the choice to do as we will, make a heaven or hell out of our own existence. Notice though just how much scripture and tradition is about shifting blame around, Devil, sin-nature, need for intervention etc. Anything to obviate responsibility.