America And The Military

[Abiyoyo]

I was thinking about something. Some countries at a certain age, people are required to enlist in the military. I think America would be extremely different if we have a similar program to this nature. I think of the benefits such as more comradery, patriotism, less economic empowerments, crime?, feud's between ethics, military standards, government decisions?.

 

I think of civil rights, and how it affected people through sports events. Sports has been proven to increase graduation percentage and help in other areas of management. When minorities played sports in the past and present, it represents a certain integrity, a equality to the athletes, fans, friends of fans, friends of friends, family of friends, etc.

 

I see military as a tool that could be used to raise awareness, reality, in a day and age where electronics are captivating the minds, eyes, and thoughts of most Americans. I think it would help level this country out.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

What age?

Should it be for just males, or females as well?

How long, 1year, 2 years, 3 years?

In what caliber should they be involved with military mechanism's ?

 

I will answer first. I think it would be good. I say 18-20 (choice). Males only, females if they desire. I will say at 2 years in if enlist at the age of 18, 1 year for either 19-20 age group who enlist. I think the caliber of military involvement should be based on a government evaluation.

[Shyone]

I was thinking about something. Some countries at a certain age, people are required to enlist in the military. I think America would be extremely different if we have a similar program to this nature. I think of the benefits such as more comradery, patriotism, less economic empowerments, crime?, feud's between ethics, military standards, government decisions?.

 

I think of civil rights, and how it affected people through sports events. Sports has been proven to increase graduation percentage and help in other areas of management. When minorities played sports in the past and present, it represents a certain integrity, a equality to the athletes, fans, friends of fans, friends of friends, family of friends, etc.

 

I see military as a tool that could be used to raise awareness, reality, in a day and age where electronics are captivating the minds, eyes, and thoughts of most Americans. I think it would help level this country out.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

What age?

Should it be for just males, or females as well?

How long, 1year, 2 years, 3 years?

In what caliber should they be involved with military mechanism's ?

 

I will answer first. I think it would be good. I say 18-20 (choice). Males only, females if they desire. I will say at 2 years in if enlist at the age of 18, 1 year for either 19-20 age group who enlist. I think the caliber of military involvement should be based on a government evaluation.

Tough question. I am proud of my military service, but 10 years before I joined the military voluntarily I burned my draft card in protest.

 

I was protesting the war (in Vietnam), but I didn't have any fondness for the military either.

 

As a "military powerhouse" to have an all volunteer army would seem irresponsible, but then should we be a military powerhouse? Policemen for the world? Is that a good thing to be "mercenaries" for the US government?

 

Would military service be beneficial to the people that join? Possibly. Increased responsibility, appropriate respect and an understanding of what personal sacrifice means.

 

But then, many would die, and I hate the loss of life and the potential that these lost lives could have provided.

 

I'm stuck. Ambivalent. I don't know.

[florduh]

For a time, I had to carry a draft card. I didn't care for it. Involuntary servitude doesn't seem right in a country that proclaims it is free.

 

When the draft was in effect during the Vietnam War, it almost destroyed the nation. The "Hell no we won't go" and "America, love it or leave it" polarization was extreme. There were riots, beatings and of course the killings, courtesy of the Ohio National Guard. Some of the best and brightest left the country rather than be forced to fight an immoral war, but were labeled "cowards" by the very "patriots" whose mantra was "Love it or leave it." The threat of being drafted for what so many considered nefarious purposes made the need for action immediate.

 

Of course it was impossible to implement the draft fairly, because the sons of politicians and other powerful members of the ruling class needed exemptions or easy duty as officers who never saw combat. The poor and powerless were sent to draw fire on the front lines. More reason to hate the draft.

 

If any good came of it I would say the draft in effect during an unpopular war provided a shared identity for much of a generation and galvanized them to shake the pillars of power, if only briefly. I wonder what would have happened if we still had the draft while searching for phantom WMD. With Bush-Cheney seen by so many as lying corporate dupes I wonder how many draftees would have refused to fight for Halliburton.

 

Hell no, I didn't go then and I won't go now.

[The-Captain]

There are so many more productive things a society could be driven towards than training to kill. Not to mention the temptations guaranteed masses of manpower would give any government.

[Thurisaz]

Military service may well be a good thing for some. However, if people have to serve their terms, have no choice (or a crappy choice)...

 

Germany still has a draft policy, so I kind of know what I'm talking about. I entered the Bundeswehr because that meant a few months less before I could start my studies in university... because while there technically was (and still is) a choice between the army and civilian service, the civilian time inevitably was several months longer. Talk about a "free" choice.

(Besides, when I served - before the collapse of the Eastern power block - you couldn't just say "I don't want to serve in the army"... you had to convince them that your conscience doesn't allow you to take up arms for anything. You had to answer questions like "You're taking a nightly walk with your girlfriend, a criminal appears and tries to stab her to death. You have a gun in reach. What do you do?", and guess what the decision was if you admitted to even thinking of using that gun...)

 

During my term, I did what pretty much all the drafted fellows did... I tried my best to stay below the radar. Best if, when your Hauptmann has to do the paperwork connected to your end of service, wonders "Private XY? I have a private XY in my company? Never noticed him... ". Now arguably some things in the Bundeswehr as I experienced it can be considered a positive influence but all in all, if people are more or less forced to serve, any such positive influence is limited.

 

Add to this that, no matter how you twist and fold it, as a soldier you prepare to fight in a war. There are obvious ethical questions (and real life dilemmas) connected to that. The Bundeswehr exists for the clearly-stated purpose of defending Germany against outside threats and nothing else. Any offensive action of Bundeswehr units outside Germany is basically an exception based on treaties signed with other countries - a very dangerous grey area if you ask me. If our armed forces had officially been allowed to shoot first, I can assure you I'd have thought much more about my decision back then.

 

Well, if after all these considerations one says that a draft is a good thing anyway:

 

Obviously drafted soldiers have to be of the minimum age they need to have full legal rights as citizens in their nation (if they're considered old enough to die for their country they are old enough to enjoy whatever legal benefits to the fullest too!). Based on my own personal experience I'd say they actually should be at least 21 years of age... you know, mature minds et al, but that can depend on the specific culture they live in so there's wiggle room.

Both genders have to serve equally, period. After all we're all living in the age of gender equality, don't we? Equal rights = equal duties!

Have them serve for at least 1.5 years, better two years. That will give them opportunity to experience, and practice in, every seasonal weather they might have to fight in some day, and if they fuck up there'll be another season where they can do it better. No use drafting soldiers if they don't have enough time to practice well.

As for the last question, I'm not sure I understand the meaning properly so I won't tackle it.

[Vixentrox]

Last thing I would have wanted was a bunch of draftess to supervise that didn't want to be there. Also many technical jobs in today's military take more than a year or two of service to really master. Besides, a free society should not have enforced servitude unless the circumstances are extremely dire indeed. In addition, a country the size of the US, where exactly would all these people be housed & trained? Who is going to pay to equip, feed, and care for them? It is an absurd notion.

[Franko47]

Last thing I would have wanted was a bunch of draftess to supervise that didn't want to be there. Also many technical jobs in today's military take more than a year or two of service to really master. Besides, a free society should not have enforced servitude unless the circumstances are extremely dire indeed. In addition, a country the size of the US, where exactly would all these people be housed & trained? Who is going to pay to equip, feed, and care for them? It is an absurd notion.

 

 

Fraid I must agree. As well, mandatory drafting can really screw up the schedule of one's career. What if I am studying to be a lawyer, doctor, engineer, banker, musician, athlete....and so on. Being removed from these mediums just for a couple of years can kill whatever plans you had. At least if I don't have a direction I can join the military and learn a career. But don't draft me when I'm at a critical stage of academic or apprenticeship progress.

 

Or are we going to make trust fund kids lounging at Harvard exempt, like last time ?

[mwc]

I think X could really be used to draw us together. Therefore I propose that everyone, at some to be defined age and some to be defined length of time, be required to participate in X.

 

mwc

[Abiyoyo]

For a time, I had to carry a draft card. I didn't care for it. Involuntary servitude doesn't seem right in a country that proclaims it is free.

 

 

 

Why?

 

We HAVE to pay taxes, not free, Federal and State. We have to abide by laws, not free. We are free within the confines of whatever our government declares freedom to be.

 

What is the difference between being forced to pay taxes, and forced to serve in the defenses of our country?

[Abiyoyo]

There are so many more productive things a society could be driven towards than training to kill. Not to mention the temptations guaranteed masses of manpower would give any government.

 

Training to kill?

 

Is that what the majority of soldiers would say the military does, train to kill only?

 

I disagree with that Doc, the military has more discipline than anything. Any civilian could train their child to hold a gun, shot, aim, kill, or even other things related to killing; but, the military offers much much more than just training a human to defend, to kill.

[Vixentrox]

For a time, I had to carry a draft card. I didn't care for it. Involuntary servitude doesn't seem right in a country that proclaims it is free.

 

 

 

Why?

 

We HAVE to pay taxes, not free, Federal and State. We have to abide by laws, not free. We are free within the confines of whatever our government declares freedom to be.

 

What is the difference between being forced to pay taxes, and forced to serve in the defenses of our country?

Because the "defense" of the country is not often what our military is used for perhaps? We are an imperialist power. Our military is rarely used for actual defense of the nation since we are rarely threatened with destruction. And now, with nuclear weapons, we will NEVER be threatened with complete destruction (internal collapse aside which seems far more likely) by anything less than another nuclear power in which case, having a bunch of draftees won't matter much.

[Abiyoyo]

Last thing I would have wanted was a bunch of draftess to supervise that didn't want to be there. Also many technical jobs in today's military take more than a year or two of service to really master. Besides, a free society should not have enforced servitude unless the circumstances are extremely dire indeed. In addition, a country the size of the US, where exactly would all these people be housed & trained? Who is going to pay to equip, feed, and care for them? It is an absurd notion.

 

It's not absurd, their are countries, free countries that do it and they excel. I will give you a hint to the country I am referring to and stemmed my thought. They also have a powerful military.

 

That is a good question though, as far as expenses, but honestly, I think if our government can give billions away for other things they could afford this.

 

Also a few people have mentioned drafts or whatever. This would be a choice within a certain timeframe. 18-20 to join in active duty.

[Vixentrox]

There are so many more productive things a society could be driven towards than training to kill. Not to mention the temptations guaranteed masses of manpower would give any government.

 

Training to kill?

 

Is that what the majority of soldiers would say the military does, train to kill only?

 

I disagree with that Doc, the military has more discipline than anything. Any civilian could train their child to hold a gun, shot, aim, kill, or even other things related to killing; but, the military offers much much more than just training a human to defend, to kill.

The military is in the business of killing and accomplishing the mission. You had better believe that is what is what it boils down to.

[Abiyoyo]

For a time, I had to carry a draft card. I didn't care for it. Involuntary servitude doesn't seem right in a country that proclaims it is free.

 

 

 

Why?

 

We HAVE to pay taxes, not free, Federal and State. We have to abide by laws, not free. We are free within the confines of whatever our government declares freedom to be.

 

What is the difference between being forced to pay taxes, and forced to serve in the defenses of our country?

Because the "defense" of the country is not often what our military is used for perhaps? We are an imperialist power. Our military is rarely used for actual defense of the nation since we are rarely threatened with destruction. And now, with nuclear weapons, we will NEVER be threatened with complete destruction (internal collapse aside which seems far more likely) by anything less than another nuclear power in which case, having a bunch of draftees won't matter much.

 

I understand your position, but I am thinking on a economic standpoint here, what it would do for the population of America, not necessarily what the Administrators would do with these folks, but what it would do for the Administrators 20 years down the road when two generations of young folks have went through this process.

 

Think about it. By then, think of many people in different walks of business, government, politics, media, sports, everything that would have been a result of this.

 

Do you think military influence would change this economical factors?

[Vixentrox]

For a time, I had to carry a draft card. I didn't care for it. Involuntary servitude doesn't seem right in a country that proclaims it is free.

 

 

 

Why?

 

We HAVE to pay taxes, not free, Federal and State. We have to abide by laws, not free. We are free within the confines of whatever our government declares freedom to be.

 

What is the difference between being forced to pay taxes, and forced to serve in the defenses of our country?

Because the "defense" of the country is not often what our military is used for perhaps? We are an imperialist power. Our military is rarely used for actual defense of the nation since we are rarely threatened with destruction. And now, with nuclear weapons, we will NEVER be threatened with complete destruction (internal collapse aside which seems far more likely) by anything less than another nuclear power in which case, having a bunch of draftees won't matter much.

 

I understand your position, but I am thinking on a economic standpoint here, what it would do for the population of America, not necessarily what the Administrators would do with these folks, but what it would do for the Administrators 20 years down the road when two generations of young folks have went through this process.

 

Think about it. By then, think of many people in different walks of business, government, politics, media, sports, everything that would have been a result of this.

 

Do you think military influence would change this economical factors?

It would run the country into poverty even quicker than our current headlong rush into it.

[Abiyoyo]

The military is in the business of killing and accomplishing the mission. You had better believe that is what is what it boils down to.

 

But again, that's the point. I think if people are exposed to democracy in America earlier in their life, those decision makers that seek to kill and that is all to sift out of context.

 

At one time, we struck when struck at, not struck to be one step forward.

[Vixentrox]

The military is in the business of killing and accomplishing the mission. You had better believe that is what is what it boils down to.

 

But again, that's the point. I think if people are exposed to democracy in America earlier in their life, those decision makers that seek to kill and that is all to sift out of context.

 

At one time, we struck when struck at, not struck to be one step forward.

Exposed to democracy? How the hell do you get that out of military service???? They drill that crap into you that you are no longer in a democracy.

[Abiyoyo]

 

It would run the country into poverty even quicker than our current headlong rush into it.

 

I don't think it will. To many factors involved. Even the wealthy would have to conform to this, the rich. So, their would be no more, high school to millionaire, their would be high school to military, to millionaire, to----different situation.

 

So, that is just one example, but the examples of affected lives would be endless. I think it will take a good dent in America's economy, but I don't think it would drain it.

 

If we were that broke Vix, Why do the military have recruiters in almost every area of this country?

[Abiyoyo]

 

Exposed to democracy? How the hell do you get that out of military service???? They drill that crap into you that you are no longer in a democracy.

 

They. who?

 

It is a simple thought Vix. We go far and beyond what our military should. Why? Because of pencil pushers, because we defend a country that is becoming complacent, lazy, defenseless.

 

The powers have to be a forward step because if we were invaded, we would be screwed. We don't live in Colonial times anymore. We live in instant communication world.

 

Do you think 9/11 should have told us to go and hunt them down that did it, or that we need to increase understanding of our freedoms, why we have them, and who gives that to us, and why we should protect our freedoms?

[Vixentrox]

 

It would run the country into poverty even quicker than our current headlong rush into it.

 

I don't think it will. To many factors involved. Even the wealthy would have to conform to this, the rich. So, their would be no more, high school to millionaire, their would be high school to military, to millionaire, to----different situation.

 

So, that is just one example, but the examples of affected lives would be endless. I think it will take a good dent in America's economy, but I don't think it would drain it.

 

If we were that broke Vix, Why do the military have recruiters in almost every area of this country?

Are you just freaking obtuse? Our current military is just a tiny fraction of the size it would be if everyone was drafted and already it makes up a huge chunk of the budget. Where are you going to come up with the extra tax dollars? Where? We are already trillions in debt we can't afford to pay and you would propose to INCREASE it by untold amounts? And why do we have recruiters? Because we are a nation that has a volunteer military!

[Vixentrox]

 

Exposed to democracy? How the hell do you get that out of military service???? They drill that crap into you that you are no longer in a democracy.

 

They. who?

 

It is a simple thought Vix. We go far and beyond what our military should. Why? Because of pencil pushers, because we defend a country that is becoming complacent, lazy, defenseless.

 

The powers have to be a forward step because if we were invaded, we would be screwed. We don't live in Colonial times anymore. We live in instant communication world.

 

Do you think 9/11 should have told us to go and hunt them down that did it, or that we need to increase understanding of our freedoms, why we have them, and who gives that to us, and why we should protect our freedoms?

They who? Are you serious? Jesus fucking christ. Spoken like an idiot that hasn't served.

[Abiyoyo]

I think X could really be used to draw us together. Therefore I propose that everyone, at some to be defined age and some to be defined length of time, be required to participate in X.

 

mwc

 

It's a joke, right? Well, oddly, your mind set of an idea of this caliber is the exact reason why I propose to do it. Our freedoms are a joke to civilians.

[florduh]

A frightening number of people who were drafted into Vietnam are to this day physically and mentally scarred. Too damn many. The argument that involuntary service in our military benefits society because of the grunts' "discipline" training doesn't hold water.

 

Stop watching and believing those "be all you can be" propaganda ads. Once the military has your ass in its grip, you have lost control.

[Abiyoyo]

 

They who? Are you serious? Jesus fucking christ. Spoken like an idiot that hasn't served.

 

I grew up in Ft. Bragg and Pope Air Force base. My friends, one of who used to be a pot dealer, is an outstanding quality of person now. My other friend, who wanted to die because he was so depressed, is fighting for his country, wholeheartedly now.

 

Just because you or others had a bad experience with the military doesn't mean that you hold the official opinion.

 

But, you are right about one thing, your reaction is probably uniform among the country. Why? Not because they understand that the powers use the military as a tool to do their dirty work, but because they simply don't want to commit to a military, be separated from family, possible death.

 

But, those things can be changed by this because it would eventually become commonplace for households to KNOW that their child will enter the military, just as they did.

 

Now, don't you think that will raise awareness of what the freaking powers are doing in there!!!

 

Of course it will!! Why? Because it will no longer be a voluntary activity for those that feel like life is worthless, and get recruited by some savy recruiter looking to score his monthly goal, or by that adult that feels hopeless and has nothing, and their is the golden gate to care, provision, and status, the military.

 

It would become a household thing. It would change the way of life in America indefinitely.

[Vixentrox]

My time in the service was over all very good. You however are romanticizing it into something it isn't.