America And The Military

[Abiyoyo]

A frightening number of people who were drafted into Vietnam are to this day physically and mentally scarred. Too damn many. The argument that involuntary service in our military benefits society because of the grunts' "discipline" training doesn't hold water.

 

Stop watching and believing those "be all you can be" propaganda ads. Once the military has your ass in its grip, you have lost control.

 

I understand this and respect Vietnam vets and also propose they think a little deeper into this proposal.

 

Florduh, do you think Vietnam would have been mentally scarring if from the time you could comprehend, in school, in high school, you already knew that you would have to join the military, fight in war?

 

I say on a psychological level that it would have been defined differently. Think about it, where you drafted?

 

Drafted. Forcing of someone, no matter where they are mentally, to serve and go to war for our country.

 

People were not equipped to be drafted because America holds military as a choice. That freedom was taken away, and freedom was always there before.

 

Wouldn't that be just like a father being took away from a child psychologically?

[Abiyoyo]

My time in the service was over all very good. You however are romanticizing it into something it isn't.

 

Do you know how to use a firearm? Do you feel you could protect your land? Do you feel you understand American diplomacy?

 

How long did you serve?

[Vixentrox]

My time in the service was over all very good. You however are romanticizing it into something it isn't.

 

Do you know how to use a firearm? Do you feel you could protect your land? Do you feel you understand American diplomacy?

 

How long did you serve?

I know how to use a firearm, everyone in the military does. I served 17 years before being medically retired as a disabled veteran. And yes, I understand the fraud of American diplomacy.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Then Vix, you are the perfect example. You see the frauds of American diplomacy, which has evolved from this countries foundational times. You know how to protect yourself and others.

 

Get it? You my friend are the result of military influence and it is beautiful in my opinion (not getting fresh).

 

The thing is that these individuals would only have to serve a year or two as required in my proposal, just enough to get the basics of military influence, discipline.

 

Now, think Vix. Year one through three of the proposal. EVERY American between 18-20 has served in the military, or is serving the military!

 

Wow, that would make a huge i impact in the youth and diplomacy of America IMO. Think again, some of these would go into politics, be lawyers, have families and continue the process.

[Vixentrox]

No it wouldn't. Your first couple of years in you are too busy learning how to do your dang job. You are indoctrinated to be an order following, no questions asked type person. Because a draftee is forced into serving they would likely have a bad attitude from day one since anyone with an ounce of brains know that the survival of the country doesn't rely on them. This knowledge of American policy being a fraud isn't something you learn in a couple years time in. No, it took a decade or so for that to start to develop for me at least.....right about the time I ditched Christianity.

[Abiyoyo]

No it wouldn't. Your first couple of years in you are too busy learning how to do your dang job. You are indoctrinated to be an order following, no questions asked type person. Because a draftee is forced into serving they would likely have a bad attitude from day one since anyone with an ounce of brains know that the survival of the country doesn't rely on them. This knowledge of American policy being a fraud isn't something you learn in a couple years time in. No, it took a decade or so for that to start to develop for me at least.....right about the time I ditched Christianity.

 

Right, but I propose, just as Christianity, at some point in a life's journey, one would come to that awakening sooner if they had served in the military, even if it was only for a few years.

 

My dad is a good example( which is showing my age). He served in Vietnam, 3 years, then left. It influenced him throughout life, in many ways. I feel my Dad is very diplomatic and learned in comparison to other adults that haven't served the same age.

[Vixentrox]

So, what branch are you serving in again? You are ready to force the entire population over time to serve but where is your service at might I ask?

[mwc]

It's a joke, right? Well, oddly, your mind set of an idea of this caliber is the exact reason why I propose to do it. Our freedoms are a joke to civilians.

Your proposition? Yes, it is a joke. One I whole-heartedly endorsed as a xian.

 

You wish to remove freedom, forcing people into service, so they can appreciate the very freedoms you forcibly removed?

 

You're an idiot. Why not just put people into prison for a couple of years? Better yet just take away all their possessions and put them into forced labor camps for awhile? This should make them appreciate freedom and democracy even more that military service would. While they're in there just "teach" them whatever it is you wish for them to learn. The "YoYo" world view. This would unify them during that time so when they're released they'd be able to go out and appreciate their lives and be productive citizens rather than taking it all for granted.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

What are your thoughts?

Cost.

 

The production possibility curve would be shifted strongly away from other things.

[The-Captain]

Training to kill?

 

Is that what the majority of soldiers would say the military does, train to kill only?

 

I disagree with that Doc, the military has more discipline than anything. Any civilian could train their child to hold a gun, shot, aim, kill, or even other things related to killing; but, the military offers much much more than just training a human to defend, to kill.

 

You must not know many service men, at least not honest or aware ones. Viv already covered this pretty well, but at it's core this is what the military is and what the training is for. To break down the natural human reluctance to kill another human, to follow orders through a chain of command. Such a forced system would be the bane of democracy. In fact it's pretty much textbook fascism, as in the state owns your ass. Furthermore while certain areas of the military can give you valuable training the economic impact of removing so many able bodied men from the workforce and having them lose a few years would be significant.

 

Self discipline is great, but there are so many other better ways to get it. You don't even need an institutionalized setting to acquire self discipline (though I agree most won't). I would never argue for mandatory service, but it could at least be in a more productive venue. Try the Parks and Wildlife, or Coast Guard, Peace Corps, or some kind of private charity. Perhaps something along the lines of the Civilian Conservation Corps, though there are good reasons we don't have that anymore.

.

[Abiyoyo]

So, what branch are you serving in again? You are ready to force the entire population over time to serve but where is your service at might I ask?

 

I have old injuries. I wouldn't pass the physical. But, no, I haven't served. But, I thought about going in as a Chaplain.

[Abiyoyo]

It's a joke, right? Well, oddly, your mind set of an idea of this caliber is the exact reason why I propose to do it. Our freedoms are a joke to civilians.

Your proposition? Yes, it is a joke. One I whole-heartedly endorsed as a xian.

 

You wish to remove freedom, forcing people into service, so they can appreciate the very freedoms you forcibly removed?

 

You're an idiot. Why not just put people into prison for a couple of years? Better yet just take away all their possessions and put them into forced labor camps for awhile? This should make them appreciate freedom and democracy even more that military service would. While they're in there just "teach" them whatever it is you wish for them to learn. The "YoYo" world view. This would unify them during that time so when they're released they'd be able to go out and appreciate their lives and be productive citizens rather than taking it all for granted.

 

mwc

 

You really know how to take a decent topic, conversation and somehow twist your Xian conspiracy theories around it.

[Abiyoyo]

Training to kill?

 

Is that what the majority of soldiers would say the military does, train to kill only?

 

I disagree with that Doc, the military has more discipline than anything. Any civilian could train their child to hold a gun, shot, aim, kill, or even other things related to killing; but, the military offers much much more than just training a human to defend, to kill.

 

You must not know many service men, at least not honest or aware ones. Viv already covered this pretty well, but at it's core this is what the military is and what the training is for. To break down the natural human reluctance to kill another human, to follow orders through a chain of command. Such a forced system would be the bane of democracy. In fact it's pretty much textbook fascism, as in the state owns your ass. Furthermore while certain areas of the military can give you valuable training the economic impact of removing so many able bodied men from the workforce and having them lose a few years would be significant.

 

Self discipline is great, but there are so many other better ways to get it. You don't even need an institutionalized setting to acquire self discipline (though I agree most won't). I would never argue for mandatory service, but it could at least be in a more productive venue. Try the Parks and Wildlife, or Coast Guard, Peace Corps, or some kind of private charity. Perhaps something along the lines of the Civilian Conservation Corps, though there are good reasons we don't have that anymore.

.

 

I see it as leveling out. We give billions to the unemployed every year, so, the lack of young people in the workforce would help unemployment. As Hans said, and someone earlier, cost from the government would be the main concern. But, even that I feel could be curtailed enough to conform.

 

I like your later idea though of some other type of 'product' for these young people to be trained in. This actually was one of my original thoughts, but wanted to keep it simple until we got to talking about it.

 

Example. I was thinking that it could be just like a light duty, go through boot camp, even possibly take some type of courses that would improve diplomacy. I also contemplate these ones that are required to enlist not be put on tour, but rather be stationed around the coasts. If needed by Congress, an internal type draft could be done for these that are there involuntarily, which would lighten the blow of a draft of a civilian.

[mwc]

You really know how to take a decent topic, conversation and somehow twist your Xian conspiracy theories around it.

It's not a decent topic. It's foolish.

 

From your OP:

I think of the benefits such as more comradery, patriotism, less economic empowerments, crime?, feud's between ethics, military standards, government decisions?.

...

Sports has been proven to increase graduation percentage and help in other areas of management. When minorities played sports in the past and present, it represents a certain integrity, a equality to the athletes, fans, friends of fans, friends of friends, family of friends, etc.

...

I see military as a tool that could be used to raise awareness, reality, in a day and age where electronics are captivating the minds, eyes, and thoughts of most Americans. I think it would help level this country out.

 

You're looking for a <something>, in which case you have chosen forced military service, that will do what? Unify a diverse group of people by making them go through this shared experience. Your wish to "level this country out" speaks volumes. Some people don't have a desire to be "level[ed] out" through your forced methodologies.

 

You've compared it to sports. Why not make everyone participate in a sports league for up to four years (or whatever your requirements were)? Probably because this isn't quite as an effective tool. Which is odd since it seemed highly beneficial for all those "friends" in your example. Who wouldn't want to be "friends of friends" [of] "friends of fans" to reap that reward? <me raises hand>

 

And as for MY bringing xianity into the whole thing. You know...ME...being the one to bring it up. No. I took the cue straight from the master:

Right, but I propose, just as Christianity, at some point in a life's journey, one would come to that awakening sooner if they had served in the military, even if it was only for a few years.

YOU introduced it and YOU made the connection you slimy asshole. Introduce the people to the indoctrination machine earlier and the results will just that much better. I admit that I, as a xian, was on board with such ideas as well. You also try to condescend to me about "civilians" taking "our freedoms" for granted while you are a "civilian" (taking away any high ground you may, but wouldn't, have had) while at the same time you propose to take away the very freedoms you claim to uphold.

 

If you want people to understand how our republic works you teach them civics. If you want them to understand how wars and weapons work you get them involved in the military. The thing is you just want to get people into an organization, an institution, and turn out as many ideologically like minded people as possible, you know, to "level this country out."

 

mwc

[Abiyoyo]

 

You're looking for a <something>, in which case you have chosen forced military service, that will do what? Unify a diverse group of people by making them go through this shared experience. Your wish to "level this country out" speaks volumes. Some people don't have a desire to be "level[ed] out" through your forced methodologies.

 

You've compared it to sports. Why not make everyone participate in a sports league for up to four years (or whatever your requirements were)? Probably because this isn't quite as an effective tool. Which is odd since it seemed highly beneficial for all those "friends" in your example. Who wouldn't want to be "friends of friends" [of] "friends of fans" to reap that reward? <me raises hand>

 

The last part, you lost me. I just stated that my dead beat friends went into the military, and they turned out to become level headed adults that I could have a conversation with, and I couldn't before.

 

What is your point? I'm lost in your point here. I'm not looking for a something, I am naming a something that I feel would influence America in a positive way, IMO. I gave reasons I thought it would be beneficial, yet, I don't remember you giving reasons it wouldn't be beneficial.

And as for MY bringing xianity into the whole thing. You know...ME...being the one to bring it up. No. I took the cue straight from the master:

Right, but I propose, just as Christianity, at some point in a life's journey, one would come to that awakening sooner if they had served in the military, even if it was only for a few years.

YOU introduced it and YOU made the connection you slimy asshole. Introduce the people to the indoctrination machine earlier and the results will just that much better. I admit that I, as a xian, was on board with such ideas as well. You also try to condescend to me about "civilians" taking "our freedoms" for granted while you are a "civilian" (taking away any high ground you may, but wouldn't, have had) while at the same time you propose to take away the very freedoms you claim to uphold.

 

If you want people to understand how our republic works you teach them civics. If you want them to understand how wars and weapons work you get them involved in the military. The thing is you just want to get people into an organization, an institution, and turn out as many ideologically like minded people as possible, you know, to "level this country out."

 

mwc

 

All I was doing is comparing it to what I know to compare it to and wasn't bringing into the mix as you said. You should pay more attention. Just because you took what I said the wrong way doesn't mean it meant what you think it meant, and actually it has nothing to do with what you said.

 

Also, you are really putting your foot in your mouth here because I am very lost about your ranting of this as church logic, and when you was a Christian, da da.

 

I thought of this myself, didn't get it from any cult ritual, messiah. Just me thinking out loud. I was gonna ask ( before you went into asshole mode) if you really were guided toward a notion like this in church, and how did that go about, as I was curious. I have never heard of someone of yet being indoctrinated into military concepts within society, by church; so again, was interesting to hear the story of that, if you ever decide to take a Prozac or something and chill.

[Vixentrox]

One point I will concede about serving in the military is you do meet and are basically forced into associating with people you might never have before. I met people from all over the country (and from outside of it), from many different races, many backgrounds and education levels, and even wealth. Believe it or not, some people in the military came from VERY wealthy backgrounds along with the very poor. This was indeed a good experience that could be benefited from. I'll also concede that it is a fine place to learn some self discipline too. But to force these things on people is totally against a free society and the cost of such madness would be completely unsustainable.

[mwc]

The last part, you lost me. I just stated that my dead beat friends went into the military, and they turned out to become level headed adults that I could have a conversation with, and I couldn't before.

I quoted from your OP it has no mention of your friends. If you're lost then take it up with the OP and the lack of clarity there.

 

What is your point? I'm lost in your point here. I'm not looking for a something, I am naming a something that I feel would influence America in a positive way, IMO. I gave reasons I thought it would be beneficial, yet, I don't remember you giving reasons it wouldn't be beneficial.

Look again. I've said my position several different ways.

 

All I was doing is comparing it to what I know to compare it to and wasn't bringing into the mix as you said. You should pay more attention. Just because you took what I said the wrong way doesn't mean it meant what you think it meant, and actually it has nothing to do with what you said.

 

Also, you are really putting your foot in your mouth here because I am very lost about your ranting of this as church logic, and when you was a Christian, da da.

Once you "compar[e] it to what [you] know to compare it to" you have brought it into the mix. You have made them analogous (ie. a comparison based on similarity). You're saying they're roughly the same so I can use one to understand the other in this discussion. If you didn't mean sports were like the military, in your example, then you shouldn't have used it as its analog. Puppy is to dog as kitten is to cat. An analog. I can now understand these animals even if I have no experience with one or the other. So sports and military were made analogs. I can now understand one via the other. Or I guess I can't.

 

If you can't comprehend what I've said then how would know if I've put my foot in my mouth?

 

I thought of this myself, didn't get it from any cult ritual, messiah. Just me thinking out loud. I was gonna ask ( before you went into asshole mode) if you really were guided toward a notion like this in church, and how did that go about, as I was curious.

"cult ritual, messiah" are your words.

 

I have never heard of someone of yet being indoctrinated into military concepts within society, by church; so again, was interesting to hear the story of that, if you ever decide to take a Prozac or something and chill.

Who said any of this?

 

mwc

[TheTruthShallSetUsFree]

Why not focus on the real problem? The need to completely revamp the educational system in this country. I have many friends and family whom have served, and I am very proud of them and thankful for the service of all our men and women. But it is certainly not for everyone and forcing service is just a terrible idea. America has an all volunteer military for several reasons. To be honest I think it's total bullshit that I had to register for selective service when I turned 18. Its a sexist antiquated notion. I also believe we should focus more on ways to live in a more peaceful world, not a more militaristic one. I am sure there are plenty of other ways to teach responsibility and whatnot. Personally, I feel patriotism isn't nearly as good as most tend to think. I believe we would be better off if we worried less about our country and more about our world. Focus on the things that make us similar and less on our differences. The idea that the military is the best way to improve our society is about the same as saying someone has to be a christian to be moral.

[Brakeman]

Abiyoyo,

 

If you haven't noticed the world of conflict has changed since the '80s. Iraq and Afghanistan aren't Germany and Italy of the 40's. We have soldiers there that are quite adept at killing. The problem they have now is that our soldiers aren't any good at nation building. Turns out we're discovering slowly that soldiers don't solve social problems that well, their forte remains to be killing. So we're stuck there until we say fuk-it and leave.

 

If we had people that were good at nation building, why would we want them to go somewhere else? We need them at home.

 

I see military service in the same light as I see police and fire service. They are professionals and they have a job to do. The past is gone. There is no glory in taking some misguided fools life. That's all a gun can do, it can't take his stupid religion away and make him peaceful.

 

I've got a picture here of a young widow holding her three year old daughter at the casket of her daddy while the little girl crys and reaches for her daddy to hold her. Her daddy was killed in Afghanistan this year, (some fucking glory). When we leave there nothing will have changed and we know it. THAT LITTLE GIRL LOST HER DADDY FOR ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

[NotBlinded]

Why not focus on the real problem? The need to completely revamp the educational system in this country. I have many friends and family whom have served, and I am very proud of them and thankful for the service of all our men and women. But it is certainly not for everyone and forcing service is just a terrible idea. America has an all volunteer military for several reasons. To be honest I think it's total bullshit that I had to register for selective service when I turned 18. Its a sexist antiquated notion. I also believe we should focus more on ways to live in a more peaceful world, not a more militaristic one. I am sure there are plenty of other ways to teach responsibility and whatnot. Personally, I feel patriotism isn't nearly as good as most tend to think. I believe we would be better off if we worried less about our country and more about our world. Focus on the things that make us similar and less on our differences. The idea that the military is the best way to improve our society is about the same as saying someone has to be a christian to be moral.

You post reminded of the the song Territories by Rush.

 

This is the last part of the song:

 

They shoot without shame

In the name of a piece of dirt

For a change of accent

Or the color of your shirt

Better the pride that resides

In a citizen of the world

Than the pride that divides

When a colorful rag is unfurled

 

I agree most of the time and then there is that little voice in my head that says that there will always be those that we have to defend ourselves against and then I'm back to where I started wondering how peace can ever be achieved.

[Phanta]

Why?

 

We HAVE to pay taxes, not free, Federal and State. We have to abide by laws, not free. We are free within the confines of whatever our government declares freedom to be.

 

What is the difference between being forced to pay taxes, and forced to serve in the defenses of our country?

 

Most people hate to pay taxes. Will forced service likewise result in most people hating defending our country?

 

If I were making this decision, I'd want to see studies on the attitudes of those prior to and after mandatory volunteerism (an oxymoron!).

 

Without seeing this, my gut says that forced service is not a great idea at all if we want to foster true patriotism, love of service, comraderie, etc. I would initially suggest offering incentives for this and a variety of civilian service opportunities to those 18-21 (Americorps, for instance), to meet the interests of the wide variety of people out there.

 

I'm certainly not made for the military, but I would have loved to have signed up for civilian service in my late teens, before college.

 

I'm not into making people conform. I don't think the world would be better if we were all the same. I am into fostering (not through force) volunteerism, service to others, self-esteem, developing one's own set of skills, and a strong sense of interdependence despite difference.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

Florduh, do you think Vietnam would have been mentally scarring if from the time you could comprehend, in school, in high school, you already knew that you would have to join the military, fight in war?

 

Abi -

 

Consider. What is PTSD? How does it effect people's lives and families (forever, temporarily...severity...ability to hold a job, raise a family, etc.)?

 

How many Vietnam vets have PTSD?

 

How many soldiers from this recent war have PTSD? (Anecdote: my friend interned at a VA clinic when she was getting her masters degree as a clinical social worker, and she treated many, many devastated soldiers coming out of the middle east for PTSD. This was several years ago, when the war was just beginning.)

 

Find out those answers, and then find this answer: What is the correlation, if any, between cultural attitudes toward joining the military and likelihood of contracting PTSD?

 

A suggestion...if this is important in assessing the consequences of mandatory military service. (I consider it an important factor to weigh in).

 

Phanta

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

A suggestion...if this is important in assessing the consequences of mandatory military service. (I consider it an important factor to weigh in).

 

Phanta

 

Hi Phanta. Long time no see

 

I agree and will say that, war, specifically, wasn't the direction I was thinking of for the role of this program, though within this process, it would definitely have an adverse affect. I was thinking that war, military effects of war are applicable, but the everyday discipline and experience through the military would be what will shape the mind of the individual.

 

I also suggested that, though war and it's effects was an evident negative, over years span, I feel that these individuals that were made to serve their country through military service would change the future role of the people that make the decisions to war, i.e. The President, Congress. All of these people at some point over the years would start to be infiltrated with veterans that should and I feel, would, have an impact on American politics, including war propaganda within America.

 

PS: Good to hear from you Phanta

[RankStranger]

Abiyoyo- this thread shows nothing but disrespect and contempt for your fellow citizens. You're actually proposing that we FORCE people (under threat of prosecution?) into a couple years of institutionalization simply because you reckon it'd make them more into your liking.

 

There are places in the world where your kind of thinking is pretty mainstream. You should look into emigrating to North Korea.

[Vixentrox]

Abiyoyo- this thread shows nothing but disrespect and contempt for your fellow citizens. You're actually proposing that we FORCE people (under threat of prosecution?) into a couple years of institutionalization simply because you reckon it'd make them more into your liking.

 

There are places in the world where your kind of thinking is pretty mainstream. You should look into emigrating to North Korea.

He could spread the word of Jesus while there.