God Tests Us?

[Rev. Dr. Sparki Hooker]

Why should I accept your version of the truth Scott? Let's take your "man up" definition for example, that obviously includes verbally abusing women like Kathlene.

 

As opposed to the blatant sexism of not responding to her in the same way he would your stupid ass, a man. You know what, you're right; as a woman, she should be in the kitchen right now making dinner and some babies, not discussing theology/apologetics/bullshit because that would make gawd lolmad.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Surely, being omniscient, god saw this coming, knew the man would never repent, but continued on with the test anyway. So god knowingly, and intentionally, damned the man to Hell. Benevolent?

 

If He was omniscient, then He wouldn't have tested him in this way, which would make him omniscient. Hypothetically that is.

 

Which essentially leaves us in a situation where, if we can find one Christian who sins and then dies before being able to repent, we'll have disproven either god's omniscience or benevolence.

 

Or, what about Christian apostasy? What if god tests someone and the result is the person completely and permanently losing their faith? Permanent apostates are, of course, damned to Hell. It seems to follow that the mere existence of Christian apostates would disprove god's testing of humans, his benevolence, or his omniscience.

 

I see your point and question. I seprate the two with God' will. What is the will of God on Earth? The Lord's prayer Christ prayed said, 'and thy will be done, on Earth as is in heaven' Then, Christ was crucified, said to have resurrected, and lives beside the right hand side of God now.

 

This implies there is a "will" that is being followed on Earth from God. Christ was apart of this will, which would make the rest apart of this will. Prophecy about the end times when Christ returns. This is apart of God's will. Also, the spirit of the anti-Christ, immorality of people on Earth, all has to do with God's will on Earth.

 

So, if God tests someone in your scenario, they die in their sins, or a person becomes an apostate because of the test, then that as well, is apart of the overall will of God on Earth.

 

Factors of the will of God.

 

Those that work for God or believe in Him.

Those that do not work for God or believe in Him.

 

God's people

Others.

 

See the separation. Even outside of religious, we know there is opposing forces of good and evil, even in this physical realm. But, back to the point. Apostate that became that way because of a test. I would say their are different answers to that, more than I may know.

 

I would only be able to make a guess to it honestly. Maybe God, being omniscient, acknowledges some for whichever reason, as Jonah, and the rest have the choice, freewill, to choice to get to the place that God acknowledges them to be able to test them, or influence them, in whichever way He goes about it.

 

A simple answer though for the apostate is maybe the test isn't over yet, as Jonah's test wasn't over yet. Or, maybe it was never a test, but fell under the ones that still had choice to even get to the place where God acknowledged them for a test.

 

Looking at Job as well underlines Satan as the one who reports to God those that are 'testable' of their faith. Would the apostate in this scenario have been able to gain Satan's attention, to report to God to test? There are so many variables of God and tests.

[Guest end3]

Why should I accept your version of the truth Scott? Let's take your "man up" definition for example, that obviously includes verbally abusing women like Kathlene.

 

As opposed to the blatant sexism of not responding to her in the same way he would your stupid ass, a man. You know what, you're right; as a woman, she should be in the kitchen right now making dinner and some babies, not discussing theology/apologetics/bullshit because that would make gawd lolmad.

 

Being respectful to women is blatant sexism?

[wt-hell?!]

I think we're also forgetting that God allows other people to suffer to test us (and this is not us being self-centered either). This was one of the craziest things I believed as a xian: there is a reason for everything. The suffering of others in the world was a test for us xians to prove our allegiance and obligations. A really good friend of mine died when I was in 6th grade, he just got shot one day while riding his bicycle. We prayed that his family would, in their grief, come to know the love of god and feel his peace in everything they were experiencing. That kid died so that his family would know jesus?!?! Looking back, it's a bunch of bull to believe that's the reason things happen. Friends of my fiance (died of cancer, of course we prayed without end for healing) all spoke about how his death was gonna be a good thing because people would show god's love to others. And that through his suffering we could learn to rely on god for everything! Obviously, God's will doesn't include healing to get people to come to him, only includes suffering. WTF? Anyways, it completely annoys the piss out of me to hear people say this kind of stuff. Like the haitians suffering this horrid earthquake is to strengthen the faith of christians and to bring ppl to christ, to learn to trust him for life and to get through the suffering on faith. That's so stupid! God tested someone, to have them rely on him, to get them to have more faith in him. He is an insecure prick!

 

Thank god he doesn't exist! lol

[Rev. Dr. Sparki Hooker]

Why should I accept your version of the truth Scott? Let's take your "man up" definition for example, that obviously includes verbally abusing women like Kathlene.

 

As opposed to the blatant sexism of not responding to her in the same way he would your stupid ass, a man. You know what, you're right; as a woman, she should be in the kitchen right now making dinner and some babies, not discussing theology/apologetics/bullshit because that would make gawd lolmad.

 

Being respectful to women is blatant sexism?

 

Yes. That is exactly what I said.

 

Fucking christ you are a moron. Do you try to be this stupid or is it just a blessing from god?

[Kathlene]

 

I always said God is not logical nor bound by our ideals of how life should go.

 

Holy shit! let's explore this scramble-brain logic a little more closely -- shall we?

 

Kathleen asserts God is not logical...

 

Isn't it curious that Kathleen can vomit up several paragraphs about god and suffering, where she delusionally "knows" god's attributes and "knows" how he works in our life, where she can jump back and forth, contending when god is illogical or logical when it suits her needs?

 

How exactly do you know how god supposedly uses suffering or trials and fires in our lives?

 

How exactly did you acquire this information?

 

I'm point blank, accusing you of pulling ALL this bullshit out of your ass just so you can pretend you feel good.

 

Again I say:

 

You do NOT know the will and character of god.

 

You do NOT have any objective evidence (which you readily admit) for ANY of your extraordinary christian/god claims.

 

You do NOT possess any special knowledge of god, his plan or his morals.

 

You simply attributed your own deluded thoughts and stunted imagination to an imaginary deity.

 

My position is IF a living god exists no one knows the will and/or character of god (good or bad).

 

The only way christians think they "know" the will and character of god is by their idiosyncratic and SELECTIVE interpretation of spurious scripture, coupled with stunted speculative imagination.

 

I humbly submit, IF god exists, I do NOT know god; god is unknowable and christians sure as shit don't know god either!

 

Prove me wrong Kathleen.

 

--S.

Sconnor...forgive my ignorance here. How am I supposed to prove you wrong in this matter?

 

I thought very deeply about your post here, and you are in essence right.

 

I have jumped between the logical and illogical, I apologise.

 

These are my experiences and worldviews and my way of interpreting my own life and the trials and sufferings I have gone through. Somehow in the midst of it all I have felt Gods presence and answers to me, and me alone. Who am I to tell any of you what your life is about and your suffering? From now on, I will only purge out this drivel in reference to my own life, my own experiences and my own findings of wisdom. I will never portray them as the right and only way. If you still feel inclined to abuse me and tear down every sentence I write about, then do so as a personal attack. I do not want to add to anyone elses anger, bitterness or anger at God or what they have suffered at the hands of the church.

 

Just as a side note too Sconnor... I realise you spent a lot of time on the main blogs, and there were many christian trolls jumping in there saying the most ridiculous things to rile you all up. In here, I am NOT one of those trolls. I have been on the forums for a while now, firstly as a deconvert and now back again as a christian. It has been a shock to many in here, especially as I have now decided that I would like to contribute to the forums in a christian capacity. The other members on this forum begrudgingly accept chrisitans in here..I am and always will be a guest in here, and I shall not forget it. However, so far in our interactions there has been a level of respect towards each other. Not a respect for my newfound again beliefs, but for me as a person. Therefore you will notice the posts in here are fairly temperate. People certainly disagree with me, and I have no problems with that. It is the way the members in here choose to show that disagreement, that gives me a high level of respect for them. So ..now to you. I realise you have a high level of anger(?) and probably understandably so at christians. However, your posts towards me and End and Abi are very flammable and highly charged. It gives me pause to ever interact with you, and that saddens me, because to have discussion in here is good. I am all open for hearing other peoples worldviews. So if you would like to continue to interact with myself, or other christians in here, please have a level of decorum. If you do not want me in here purging up my vomit, then I will gladly leave you alone.

 

And yes, I do recognise this is the Lions Den. Maybe I am just not cut out to be dealing with such aggressivness...I dont know.

[Brakeman]

.. What is the will of God on Earth? The Lord's prayer Christ prayed said, 'and thy will be done, on Earth as is in heaven' Then, Christ was crucified, said to have resurrected, and lives beside the right hand side of God now.

 

This implies there is a "will" that is being followed on Earth from God. Christ was apart of this will, which would make the rest apart of this will. Prophecy about the end times when Christ returns. This is apart of God's will. Also, the spirit of the anti-Christ, immorality of people on Earth, all has to do with God's will on Earth.

 

So, if God tests someone in your scenario, they die in their sins, or a person becomes an apostate because of the test, then that as well, is apart of the overall will of God on Earth.

..

 

Whoa! I hadn't thought of that before. In the "Lords" prayer god prays that his own will will be done. Now does that make ANY sense?

 

Simply boiled down, does god want to run our lives or not? If he tries to run our lives he will succeed, else he is not god. If he doesn't then he wouldn't design our environment to control us because if he did the above rule would apply.

 

Using the Jonah example, if god told Jonah to do something and he refused, then god spoke to Jonah in a refusable way. God's words were to convince Jonah to go someplace. Because Jonah refused, gods words weren't convincing enough. So according to Jonah, god was not all powerful because his words were too weak to get him to agree the first time. "Maybe Jonah also rode in an Iron chariot, hmm bible doesn't say.."

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Whoa! I hadn't thought of that before. In the "Lords" prayer god prays that his own will will be done. Now does that make ANY sense?

 

Simply boiled down, does god want to run our lives or not? If he tries to run our lives he will succeed, else he is not god. If he doesn't then he wouldn't design our environment to control us because if he did the above rule would apply.

 

Using the Jonah example, if god told Jonah to do something and he refused, then god spoke to Jonah in a refusable way. God's words were to convince Jonah to go someplace. Because Jonah refused, gods words weren't convincing enough. So according to Jonah, god was not all powerful because his words were too weak to get him to agree the first time. "Maybe Jonah also rode in an Iron chariot, hmm bible doesn't say.."

 

You forgot the rest of the story there Brakeman. Jonah got thrown off a boat because God made the sea to much to handle, and He got swallowed by a fish (supposedly), and then was feeling death when he then said he would go do it. So, to me, that isn't exactly freewill as we learn in modern Christianity.

[Brakeman]

..

And yes, I do recognise this is the Lions Den. Maybe I am just not cut out to be dealing with such aggressivness...I dont know.

 

Kathlene,

 

I realize that there is quite a bit of cursing going on here from a couple of the guys. I wish they would clean it up a little, one can be very direct without using meaningless expletives.

 

Please please don't let your feeling be hurt and stop posting. I love hearing from those who hold apposing opinions from my own. Otherwise the forums get too boring. Maybe we can learn from each other.

 

If you see any logical fault or factual error in my commenting on these boards, please please comment and straighten me out. I really like to learn.

 

I come out with snarky comments all the time, but I don't want to hurt anybodies feelings. I just want them to think.

 

I too think that Women are just as mentally tough as men, but aren't as used to the foul language some men use to bolster weak ideas or to express frustration. I hope you'll stick in here.

[Sconnor]

I was referencing your subsequent post which apparently had no credibility....the one that stated "no discussion for you".

 

No shit asshole. Again, the exception applies. Do...you...speak...english?

 

So let it penetrate your dome I will "...when I occasionally deem your comments loony (which I suspect is quite often) -- will provide more biting assessments and mockery."

 

I was hoping it to be the truth in lieu of placing you on "ignore". I have yet to do that with anyone, but you are providing near sufficient temptation.

 

Ooooooooooo, I'm shaking in my boots. What a disappointment it will be that you will be a little christian chicken-shit and stick your tail between your legs and bail!

 

Ignore ALL you want -- it only gives more credence to my assertion that you are a deluded christian whack-job that "believed" it was divinely ordained to discuss something. Or have you flipped flopped and now you think god wants you to ignore me. Cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.

 

Why should I accept your version of the truth Scott?

 

That's where you got it completely ass-backward. I don't claim to have a version of the truth. You do. I am simply challenging your deluded beliefs by pointing out the illogical inconsistencies, asinine rationalizations, contradictions, bullshit magical thinking and the pulling shit out of your ass, that you claim is the truth. Can you possibly comprehend the words that are coming out of my mouth?

 

That's why I have my motto that makes my position perfectly clear:

 

You do NOT know the will and character of god.

 

You do NOT have any objective evidence for ANY of your extraordinary christian/god claims.

 

You do NOT possess any special knowledge of god, his plan or his morals.

 

You simply attributed your own deluded thoughts and stunted imagination to an imaginary deity.

 

My position is IF a living god exists no one knows the will and/or character of god (good or bad).

 

The only way christians think they "know" the will and character of god is by their idiosyncratic and SELECTIVE interpretation of spurious scripture, coupled with stunted speculative imagination.

 

I humbly submit, IF god exists, I do NOT know god; god is unknowable and christians sure as shit don't know god either!

 

Now, you prove me wrong.

 

Let's take your "man up" definition for example, that obviously includes verbally abusing women like Kathlene.

 

Oh how noble of you to protect the fragile little girl, without a mind for her own, (sarcasm) from my big, bad assessment of her deluded beliefs.

 

Is she not a big girl who can handle herself in the big bad world of the Internet?

 

Obviously being a woman and all she can't defend herself (sarcasm) and needs a good christian MAN to speak for her and protect her from my perfectly blunt and honest assessment of her deluded beliefs.

 

Put baby in the corner and shield her from dissent. (More sarcasm)

 

--S.

[Brakeman]

 

 

Whoa! I hadn't thought of that before. In the "Lords" prayer god prays that his own will will be done. Now does that make ANY sense?

 

Simply boiled down, does god want to run our lives or not? If he tries to run our lives he will succeed, else he is not god. If he doesn't then he wouldn't design our environment to control us because if he did the above rule would apply.

 

Using the Jonah example, if god told Jonah to do something and he refused, then god spoke to Jonah in a refusable way. God's words were to convince Jonah to go someplace. Because Jonah refused, gods words weren't convincing enough. So according to Jonah, god was not all powerful because his words were too weak to get him to agree the first time. "Maybe Jonah also rode in an Iron chariot, hmm bible doesn't say.."

 

You forgot the rest of the story there Brakeman. Jonah got thrown off a boat because God made the sea to much to handle, and He got swallowed by a fish (supposedly), and then was feeling death when he then said he would go do it. So, to me, that isn't exactly freewill as we learn in modern Christianity.

 

No, I didn't forget the rest of the story, it just isn't important to my point. If I have to tell my daughter two or three times to clean up her room, it doesn't matter that I convince her on the second try, the point is that I failed on the first try.

 

Yes, I agree that isn't free will. and that gets back to a point we came to earlier in the post I think, What's the point of all of this godly charade if we don't have true free will? Do you think god is just poking us with a stick like a little boy does an anthill?

[Sconnor]

Sconnor...forgive my ignorance here. How am I supposed to prove you wrong in this matter?

 

You can't! That's the point -- you don't have a leg to stand on. Your beliefs are just a deluded illusion. You have zero credibility.

 

Consider the insane cult leader -- David Koresh -- of the Branch Davidians: he also made the extraordinary claim that he knew god, spoke to god, experienced god and that god was working through his life.

 

How are you any different from him?

 

How are his deranged claims any different then yours?

 

Why should we find his claims invalid, but believe your claims are valid?

 

I thought very deeply about your post here, and you are in essence right.

 

In essence? No dear -- in reality.

 

I have jumped between the logical and illogical, I apologise.

 

Why do you have to apologize? I don't want your apologies.

 

These are my experiences and worldviews and my way of interpreting my own life and the trials and sufferings I have gone through.

 

Yep and they are solely based on an illusion of your own making.

 

Somehow in the midst of it all I have felt Gods presence and answers to me, and me alone.

 

Another rationalization; a product of your own mind, that has absolutely NO reference in reality -- nothing but the ravings of a crazy person.

 

Who am I to tell any of you what your life is about and your suffering?

 

True that!

 

From now on, I will only purge out this drivel in reference to my own life, my own experiences and my own findings of wisdom.

 

So? It won't stop me from dissecting it.

 

I will never portray them as the right and only way.

 

Too late -- it is implicit that it is the right way and only way otherwise you wouldn't hold these beliefs and continue to profess them.

 

If you still feel inclined to abuse me and tear down every sentence I write about, then do so as a personal attack.

 

I don't know you personally. I am not personally attacking you. Nor is it abuse. I am however, attacking your unsubstantiated over-rationalized, deluded beliefs -- there's a difference.

 

I do not want to add to anyone elses anger, bitterness or anger at God or what they have suffered at the hands of the church.

 

Another deluded and wholly erroneous assumption on your part, once again.

 

Again, you erroneously confuse anger with my blunt assessment of your unsupported beliefs. I have NOT suffered at the hands of the church NOR am I angry or bitter towards god -- remember I do NOT have a belief in a personal christian god. Please put this in your dome for future reference.(**)

[Sconnor]

Just as a side note too Sconnor... I realise you spent a lot of time on the main blogs, and there were many christian trolls jumping in there saying the most ridiculous things to rile you all up. In here, I am NOT one of those trolls.

 

I never considered you a troll nor have I accused you of being a troll. It's your delusional beliefs and unsubstantiated claims that I find ridiculous and which I specifically rail against.

 

..I am and always will be a guest in here, and I shall not forget it. However, so far in our interactions there has been a level of respect towards each other. Not a respect for my newfound again beliefs, but for me as a person. Therefore you will notice the posts in here are fairly temperate. People certainly disagree with me, and I have no problems with that. It is the way the members in here choose to show that disagreement, that gives me a high level of respect for them.

 

Did you ever notice the ones who demand respect are the ones who don't really deserve it?

 

So ..now to you. I realise you have a high level of anger(?) and probably understandably so at christians.

 

Nope, nadda, completely wrong. (refer to this**)

 

However, your posts towards me and End and Abi are very flammable and highly charged. It gives me pause to ever interact with you, and that saddens me, because to have discussion in here is good. I am all open for hearing other peoples worldviews. So if you would like to continue to interact with myself, or other christians in here, please have a level of decorum. If you do not want me in here purging up my vomit, then I will gladly leave you alone.

 

I refuse to coddle you or the other christian posters. My assessments are accurate, germane and salient, even if they are highly charged. I would hardly call them abusive and they have NOT degenerated into NOTHING but verbal name-calling. I still offer sound arguments whether you like it or not. The language that I use is simply another spice in my stew. Consider me the Gordon Ramsay of apostasy.

 

 

And yes, I do recognise this is the Lions Den. Maybe I am just not cut out to be dealing with such aggressivness...I dont know.

 

Well if you consider what I say to you or the other posters as abusive then maybe you are too fragile and NOT cut out for it and you'll have to let end3 put you in the corner while he fights your fights for you (because he's a man) as to protect your feeble beliefs from my painfully honest assessments.

 

Furthermore you offer preposterous christian/god claims, supported on supposed flimsy subjective "proofs" (and/or readily admit you don't have any proof), spurious spiritualism, bloated rationalizations, personal testimony and the rantings of a lunatic, who can not substantiate an iota of what you are saying with objective evidence. You would have us take your word for it, that your interpretation of scripture is valid-- Why should we RESPECT a deluded fallible christian that makes extraordinary, interpretive claims, she can't substantiate?

 

--S.

[ghost_warlock]

 

I see your point and question. I seprate the two with God' will. What is the will of God on Earth? The Lord's prayer Christ prayed said, 'and thy will be done, on Earth as is in heaven' Then, Christ was crucified, said to have resurrected, and lives beside the right hand side of God now.

 

This implies there is a "will" that is being followed on Earth from God. Christ was apart of this will, which would make the rest apart of this will. Prophecy about the end times when Christ returns. This is apart of God's will. Also, the spirit of the anti-Christ, immorality of people on Earth, all has to do with God's will on Earth.

 

So, if God tests someone in your scenario, they die in their sins, or a person becomes an apostate because of the test, then that as well, is apart of the overall will of God on Earth.

 

Factors of the will of God.

 

Those that work for God or believe in Him.

Those that do not work for God or believe in Him.

 

God's people

Others.

 

See the separation. Even outside of religious, we know there is opposing forces of good and evil, even in this physical realm. But, back to the point. Apostate that became that way because of a test. I would say their are different answers to that, more than I may know.

 

I would only be able to make a guess to it honestly. Maybe God, being omniscient, acknowledges some for whichever reason, as Jonah, and the rest have the choice, freewill, to choice to get to the place that God acknowledges them to be able to test them, or influence them, in whichever way He goes about it.

 

A simple answer though for the apostate is maybe the test isn't over yet, as Jonah's test wasn't over yet. Or, maybe it was never a test, but fell under the ones that still had choice to even get to the place where God acknowledged them for a test.

 

Looking at Job as well underlines Satan as the one who reports to God those that are 'testable' of their faith. Would the apostate in this scenario have been able to gain Satan's attention, to report to God to test? There are so many variables of God and tests.

 

The description of god's Will, here, is not a refutation of the premise that god deliberately sends people to Hell; it is actually an assertion of that premise. In other words, it is a statement that god personally selects certain people to suffer Hell; an attempt at justifying why "others" deserve an eternity of torment.

 

The conflict between good and evil is a red herring. As the ultimiate author of all that is, it must be god's choice what is good and what is evil. Hypothetically, these could be altered at god's whim; else he is not omnipotent. Of course, if good and evil were to be altered, it would seem to be a (weak) violation of omniscience - for if god knew that, one day, he would choose to alter good/evil, why not save a step and simply present the final versions in the first place?

 

(Of course, by extension, one would wonder what is the point of creation in the first place? If god is omniscient, creation is not to his benefit as he already knows how everything will play out. It is certainly not to the benefit of those who are damned to Hell. It would seem the only benefactors of creation are those destined to reside in Heaven. If this is the case, why does god not simply avoid the tormenting of souls damned to Hell and create - in his presense - only the souls destined for Heaven?)

 

The reference to the role of Satan is a seperate issue. Is Satan truly "the evil one," or does he simply do god's dirty work as in the story of Job? Reports, and opinions, vary.

[Shyone]

(Of course, by extension, one would wonder what is the point of creation in the first place? If god is omniscient, creation is not to his benefit as he already knows how everything will play out. It is certainly not to the benefit of those who are damned to Hell. It would seem the only benefactors of creation are those destined to reside in Heaven. If this is the case, why does god not simply avoid the tormenting of souls damned to Hell and create - in his presense - only the souls destined for Heaven?)

This.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

The reference to the role of Satan is a seperate issue. Is Satan truly "the evil one," or does he simply do god's dirty work as in the story of Job? Reports, and opinions, vary.

s

 

Indulge with me here for a minute. Take away all the verses that talk about fiery, torturous hell. What is left? Separation. Without the torture idea, Maybe we will just be uncomfortable, think of the Jesus parable, the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham says there is a gulf fixed and he couldn't give him any water for his tongue. It didn't say, Behold, I saw the rich man burning, his teeth gnashing, on fire, being poked by little devils, tortured. So, it is possible that hell isn't as bad as it is made out, of course, unless you consider Satan a monster, real bad. But, remember, Satan is thrown in the pit, the fire along with the false prophet, and we are judged, and we can't enter where the Lamb's people are.

 

This makes me contend that hell is a separation off some sort. Also, there is the whole, Who qualifies to go to the Lamb's side, which is up in the air, and debatable.

 

 

So lets recap here.

 

1)God made everything.

2)God made Satan (indulge with me here)

3)God made Adam and Eve

4)Satan, Adam and Eve disobeyed God and we were sent to Earth, and Satan as well but he stayed immortal.

5)Satan communicates with the host of God, and even convinces God to test Job

6)Mankind moves along and Jesus is born

7)God ordains him as His Son, and if we believe in Him, then we believ in the Father.

8)Satan kills Christ (through others), deceives Judas(Satan entered Judas)

9)Jesus enters hell and preaches to them

10)Jesus appears to the disciples, ascends to heaven.

11)Jesus and an angel speaks to John, and writes Revelation.

 

Now, in revelation, Satan, still, does not obey God, and he is released (some could look at this as a test as well) and he deceives the nations to make war with Christ.

 

He is thrown into the pit with the false prophet. The dead on Earth are raised up and judged. The Lamb has a place for His, (flowing with living waters), the others (back to Lazarus are not able to enter the other side(also in Revelation)

 

Maybe Adam and Eve's offspring are not tortured. Maybe they just want in the place where Christ is now that they know He was real.

 

Maybe God didn't zap Satan because of the same reason He didn't zap us when we disobeyed.

 

If God showed us love in His omnibenevolence, then wouldn't He be required to love Satan too.

 

So, all that to say this.

 

If God is omnibenevolent, then He loves Satan as well, enough not to zap him out of being altogether.

[Ouroboros]

(Of course, by extension, one would wonder what is the point of creation in the first place? If god is omniscient, creation is not to his benefit as he already knows how everything will play out. It is certainly not to the benefit of those who are damned to Hell. It would seem the only benefactors of creation are those destined to reside in Heaven. If this is the case, why does god not simply avoid the tormenting of souls damned to Hell and create - in his presense - only the souls destined for Heaven?)

This.

Or perhaps the Universe and life is just a huge social experiment by some scientist God, who isn't all-knowing but wants to see how humanity, as a whole, evolves.

[ghost_warlock]

 

Indulge with me here for a minute. Take away all the verses that talk about fiery, torturous hell. What is left? Separation. Without the torture idea, Maybe we will just be uncomfortable, think of the Jesus parable, the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham says there is a gulf fixed and he couldn't give him any water for his tongue. It didn't say, Behold, I saw the rich man burning, his teeth gnashing, on fire, being poked by little devils, tortured. So, it is possible that hell isn't as bad as it is made out, of course, unless you consider Satan a monster, real bad. But, remember, Satan is thrown in the pit, the fire along with the false prophet, and we are judged, and we can't enter where the Lamb's people are.

 

This makes me contend that hell is a separation off some sort. Also, there is the whole, Who qualifies to go to the Lamb's side, which is up in the air, and debatable.

 

Even if Hell is merely mild discomfort, an eternity of it will still be torturous. Ever had a toothache that just won't go away? Sure, no big deal for the first couple hours, but by the second day it starts to become a serious, all-consuming issue. Imagine an eternity with a mild toothache and with no Tylenol available.

 

And, in any case, under the god-tests-humans hypothesis, we're still left with a version of god that intentionally sets people up to fail; which is at least mean-spirited and deceitful.

 

So lets recap here.

 

1)God made everything.

2)God made Satan (indulge with me here)

3)God made Adam and Eve

4)Satan, Adam and Eve disobeyed God and we were sent to Earth, and Satan as well but he stayed immortal.

5)Satan communicates with the host of God, and even convinces God to test Job

6)Mankind moves along and Jesus is born

7)God ordains him as His Son, and if we believe in Him, then we believ in the Father.

8)Satan kills Christ (through others), deceives Judas(Satan entered Judas)

9)Jesus enters hell and preaches to them

10)Jesus appears to the disciples, ascends to heaven.

11)Jesus and an angel speaks to John, and writes Revelation.

 

Now, in revelation, Satan, still, does not obey God, and he is released (some could look at this as a test as well) and he deceives the nations to make war with Christ.

 

He is thrown into the pit with the false prophet. The dead on Earth are raised up and judged. The Lamb has a place for His, (flowing with living waters), the others (back to Lazarus are not able to enter the other side(also in Revelation)

 

Maybe Adam and Eve's offspring are not tortured. Maybe they just want in the place where Christ is now that they know He was real.

 

Maybe God didn't zap Satan because of the same reason He didn't zap us when we disobeyed.

 

If God showed us love in His omnibenevolence, then wouldn't He be required to love Satan too.

 

So, all that to say this.

 

If God is omnibenevolent, then He loves Satan as well, enough not to zap him out of being altogether.

 

Personally, it seems to me that Revelation is the outlier - slapped onto the end of New Testament for the purpose of making the threat of Hell truly frightening. It isn't entirely consistent with the majority of the NT's 'god is love' message. It is not exactly inconsistent with the Old Testament, however.

 

As we've all read, in the OT god certainly does 'zap' people. Not in the sense of being zapped out of existence, but god does kill thousands of people in various ways:

• the flood (apparently god didn't think his cunning plan all the way through; as he feels remorse for his actions afterwards in a classic omniscience-fail)
  
• various plagues (such as the surreal 11th book of Exodus where god, instead of slaying Pharoah and the slave-drivers, kills all of Egypt's first-born; both people and animals - innocents with respect to the conflict)
  
• raining fire & brimstone (Sodom, for instance)
  
• turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt (zapped for what seems to be a minor transgression; god demands absolute obedience)
  
• commanding his followers to slaughter rival civilizations (Jabesh-gilead, Ai, Jericho, etc.; especially horrific considering god also commands his troops to rape the virgin daughters of some of these civilizations after they've killed all the adults and other children)
  
• etc., such as having animals attack people (not trying to be exhaustive, here)
  

[Guest end3]

Why should I accept your version of the truth Scott? Let's take your "man up" definition for example, that obviously includes verbally abusing women like Kathlene.

 

As opposed to the blatant sexism of not responding to her in the same way he would your stupid ass, a man. You know what, you're right; as a woman, she should be in the kitchen right now making dinner and some babies, not discussing theology/apologetics/bullshit because that would make gawd lolmad.

 

Being respectful to women is blatant sexism?

 

Yes. That is exactly what I said.

 

Fucking christ you are a moron. Do you try to be this stupid or is it just a blessing from god?

 

I gather respect is independent of gender Sparki. But within the context of "man up", you interpret no difference between men and women?

[Abiyoyo]

 

Indulge with me here for a minute. Take away all the verses that talk about fiery, torturous hell. What is left? Separation. Without the torture idea, Maybe we will just be uncomfortable, think of the Jesus parable, the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham says there is a gulf fixed and he couldn't give him any water for his tongue. It didn't say, Behold, I saw the rich man burning, his teeth gnashing, on fire, being poked by little devils, tortured. So, it is possible that hell isn't as bad as it is made out, of course, unless you consider Satan a monster, real bad. But, remember, Satan is thrown in the pit, the fire along with the false prophet, and we are judged, and we can't enter where the Lamb's people are.

 

This makes me contend that hell is a separation off some sort. Also, there is the whole, Who qualifies to go to the Lamb's side, which is up in the air, and debatable.

 

Even if Hell is merely mild discomfort, an eternity of it will still be torturous. Ever had a toothache that just won't go away? Sure, no big deal for the first couple hours, but by the second day it starts to become a serious, all-consuming issue. Imagine an eternity with a mild toothache and with no Tylenol available.

 

And, in any case, under the god-tests-humans hypothesis, we're still left with a version of god that intentionally sets people up to fail; which is at least mean-spirited and deceitful.

 

So lets recap here.

 

1)God made everything.

2)God made Satan (indulge with me here)

3)God made Adam and Eve

4)Satan, Adam and Eve disobeyed God and we were sent to Earth, and Satan as well but he stayed immortal.

5)Satan communicates with the host of God, and even convinces God to test Job

6)Mankind moves along and Jesus is born

7)God ordains him as His Son, and if we believe in Him, then we believ in the Father.

8)Satan kills Christ (through others), deceives Judas(Satan entered Judas)

9)Jesus enters hell and preaches to them

10)Jesus appears to the disciples, ascends to heaven.

11)Jesus and an angel speaks to John, and writes Revelation.

 

Now, in revelation, Satan, still, does not obey God, and he is released (some could look at this as a test as well) and he deceives the nations to make war with Christ.

 

He is thrown into the pit with the false prophet. The dead on Earth are raised up and judged. The Lamb has a place for His, (flowing with living waters), the others (back to Lazarus are not able to enter the other side(also in Revelation)

 

Maybe Adam and Eve's offspring are not tortured. Maybe they just want in the place where Christ is now that they know He was real.

 

Maybe God didn't zap Satan because of the same reason He didn't zap us when we disobeyed.

 

If God showed us love in His omnibenevolence, then wouldn't He be required to love Satan too.

 

So, all that to say this.

 

If God is omnibenevolent, then He loves Satan as well, enough not to zap him out of being altogether.

 

Personally, it seems to me that Revelation is the outlier - slapped onto the end of New Testament for the purpose of making the threat of Hell truly frightening. It isn't entirely consistent with the majority of the NT's 'god is love' message. It is not exactly inconsistent with the Old Testament, however.

 

As we've all read, in the OT god certainly does 'zap' people. Not in the sense of being zapped out of existence, but god does kill thousands of people in various ways:

• the flood (apparently god didn't think his cunning plan all the way through; as he feels remorse for his actions afterwards in a classic omniscience-fail)
  
• various plagues (such as the surreal 11th book of Exodus where god, instead of slaying Pharoah and the slave-drivers, kills all of Egypt's first-born; both people and animals - innocents with respect to the conflict)
  
• raining fire & brimstone (Sodom, for instance)
  
• turning Lot's wife into a pillar of salt (zapped for what seems to be a minor transgression; god demands absolute obedience)
  
• commanding his followers to slaughter rival civilizations (Jabesh-gilead, Ai, Jericho, etc.; especially horrific considering god also commands his troops to rape the virgin daughters of some of these civilizations after they've killed all the adults and other children)
  
• etc., such as having animals attack people (not trying to be exhaustive, here)
  

 

I just mentioned this in another thread. I see Jesus as God's love, omnibenevolence, and I see God, the Father as the Judge, the balance scales. For example, to clarify. When Jesus went to hell and preached to the dead, I believe in the same moment (though it isn't said in the Bible), that Jesus contended with Satan as well, and he rejected it becoming the adversary of God in fullness, leading the Anti-Christ movement which John said, 'Is already here' way back then.

 

I see Jesus as the mediator to God for us. But, since God is omniscient, God already knew Satan would keep contention with Him. As the Judge, He was yet, though knowing, giving Satan another chance to repent. He didn't, so God will Judge him justly.

 

Now, us. I see the part where it is said' If you believe in me, you would believe in the Father.' statement as Christ saying that He will be the high priest to atone for our sin, not necessarily because He was crucified as Paul put it, but just because He was the One sent to become this entity. I also believe that Jesus was fully human on Earth, but directed fully by the Holy Spirit, and after His death, became what God planned for him to become, our authority, our lifeline on Earth for those that are willing to accept Him. I think God will Judge the rest of manking without Christ justly, within His own judgment, BUT, I think if you have heard the Gospel of Jesus, then as it says, 'It will be required of you' in that God will question your lack of belief on the omnibenevolence of the One He sent.

 

But getting back to our original point of topic. If the man died in His sins, but in Jesus Christ, I attend to the theology that though He sinned, He died in God's omniscience. For example, God would already know if he felt bad, or if He was full of vileness and deceit totally disregarding God, Jesus all together, or if he just messed up once. This would be God's judgment, and I would hope that He would judge the man entirely and not over one situation?

 

This is a contention with the Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine. They say that if you get saved by Christ, you stay by Christ. Of course, they also say that if the person died sinning, or sinful, they really weren't saved

 

Gotta love doctrinal theology.

[Snakefoot]

It pretty much means that if God needs to 'test' us, then he's not really God.

I really like this.

 

It's concise and shows the internal contradictions between what God is supposed to be and what the "plan" is supposed to do/be. Do be do.

... be, do wa-ahh.

[NotBlinded]

It pretty much means that if God needs to 'test' us, then he's not really God.

I really like this.

 

It's concise and shows the internal contradictions between what God is supposed to be and what the "plan" is supposed to do/be. Do be do.

... be, do wa-ahh.

[chefranden]

The reason He seemingly "neglects" is that He gave humanity everthing, including His Son, and they still reject Him. And still He has given warning of the consequences.

 

No, he didn't give them everything. Unless by everything you include unrelenting terror. I just heard a story on the CBD about a 12 year old Haitian girl who was pulled out of the rubble and raped. What it wasn't enough to dump her house on her? I just bet the little tyke was "OH thank Jesus, thank you! Such a wonderful God you are!"

 

And the children thing.....just the other day here, everyone was lobbying for "if you were exposed to Christianity as a child, then you are highly probable to become a Christian" instead of anything other....almost 100% probablility as Vigil stated. Now, you are saying that it doesn't work for those children raised with an "evil" background? And that "truth" my friend is by a natural scientific observation.

 

Trying to find a little justification for murdering children are we? Who's to say it wasn't the Christians or the Jews that were the evil fucks and their children and cows -- don't forget the cows -- should be whacked? Muslims and Jews often find Christians to be evil. Could be I suppose. It's hard for me to tell. One god is as good as another from my point of view. They all look like evil bastards to me. In fact killing children seems to be the test of gods. The one that can make people kill the most kids is obviously the most real god.

[Guest end3]

The reason He seemingly "neglects" is that He gave humanity everthing, including His Son, and they still reject Him. And still He has given warning of the consequences.

 

No, he didn't give them everything. Unless by everything you include unrelenting terror. I just heard a story on the CBD about a 12 year old Haitian girl who was pulled out of the rubble and raped. What it wasn't enough to dump her house on her? I just bet the little tyke was "OH thank Jesus, thank you! Such a wonderful God you are!"

 

And the children thing.....just the other day here, everyone was lobbying for "if you were exposed to Christianity as a child, then you are highly probable to become a Christian" instead of anything other....almost 100% probablility as Vigil stated. Now, you are saying that it doesn't work for those children raised with an "evil" background? And that "truth" my friend is by a natural scientific observation.

 

Trying to find a little justification for murdering children are we? Who's to say it wasn't the Christians or the Jews that were the evil fucks and their children and cows -- don't forget the cows -- should be whacked? Muslims and Jews often find Christians to be evil. Could be I suppose. It's hard for me to tell. One god is as good as another from my point of view. They all look like evil bastards to me. In fact killing children seems to be the test of gods. The one that can make people kill the most kids is obviously the most real god.

 

I hear ya, so what is your explanation for the Haitian girl's reality here in the natural world? Lovely as it seems with all the education and the do-gooding of all the righteous non-believers....oh, I see, pulled here out of the rubble in order to rape her? Yeah, let's choose that route?

 

I noticed you ignored a legitimate response for the "justification".

[Skankboy]

I hear ya, so what is your explanation for the Haitian girl's reality here in the natural world?

Not to be too crude but "shit happens". Sometimes bad things happen to good people, sometimes good things happen to bad people.