Can Christians Believe In The Qur'an?

[Sconnor]

Here's an interesting admission from one of the christians (abiyoyo) posting on this forum.

 

Abiyoyo said, "It is possible this same god did deliver his final revelation of divine guidance and direction for mankind (a different theology) in the form of the qur'an, because there are many similarities between the Quran and the Gospels specifically revolving around the role of Christ divinely and authoritatively speaking." (which I have already discussed)

 

~and~

 

Abiyoyo said, "Yes I do believe that the arch-angel Gabriel came to Muhammad to recite the the qur'an because He proclaimed Christ as Holy and from God, also being the messenger of God."

 

Can christians believe in the Qur'an?

[Ouroboros]

Unitarians probably do.

[florduh]

Can Christians Believe In The Qur'an?

Why not? Some believe in the Book of Mormon and still consider themselves to be Christian. There are Voodoo practitioners who think of themselves as Catholic Christians; my father met some in Haiti. Reliance on extra-biblical texts and heretical beliefs don't preclude one from calling himself a Christian.

 

Christianity is in the mind of the beholder.

[Ouroboros]

I think I heard about Buddhist Christians in the past too.

[Kathlene]

Ok, for me personally I dont believe in the Qur'an. Why? Well for arguments sake I am going to use a verse from the Bible. I am well aware of the circular argument for the Bible, so whatever. For me, this verse sums it up for me at least why I dont believe in the Qur'an. I know Muslims know who Jesus is, and they refer to him as a great prophet. However, they do not believe he is the Messiah.

 

Who is the liar?

It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist- he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1John2 v22-23.

 

My particular issue here is that whilst Muslims refer to Jesus, they do not declare him as the Christ, is Messiah, Saviour of the world, yada yada...Lord and King.

 

There is my argument. Not a very strong one. I havent really looked into the Muslim faith and the Qur'an.

[Sconnor]

Well according to abiyoyo, he believes god delivered his final revelation of divine guidance and direction for mankind in the form of the qur'an.

 

Of course if that is true then why does god contradict himself?

 

Isn't god in the business of saving people? Isn't he omnipotent?

 

Comparing the two holy books this ALL knowing god seems to be equivocating at the detriment of his earthly children by giving two different stories on how one is supposedly saved.

 

Hey abiyoyo, are devout Muslims saved?

 

--S.

[Sconnor]

Ok, for me personally I dont believe in the Qur'an. Why? Well for arguments sake I am going to use a verse from the Bible. I am well aware of the circular argument for the Bible, so whatever. For me, this verse sums it up for me at least why I dont believe in the Qur'an. I know Muslims know who Jesus is, and they refer to him as a great prophet. However, they do not believe he is the Messiah.

 

Who is the liar?

It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist- he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1John2 v22-23.

 

My particular issue here is that whilst Muslims refer to Jesus, they do not declare him as the Christ, is Messiah, Saviour of the world, yada yada...Lord and King.

 

There is my argument. Not a very strong one. I havent really looked into the Muslim faith and the Qur'an.

 

Hi Kathlene.

 

Are you under the delusion that only christians are saved while the rest of god's earthly children, the other 70% of the world (who are not christian) will be tortured in the flames of hell for an eternity?

 

And what exactly is the criteria for one to be saved?

 

--S.

[Realist]

Well according to abiyoyo, he believes god delivered his final revelation of divine guidance and direction for mankind in the form of the qur'an.

 

.... well it looks like all xians are damned then!!

[Kathlene]

Ok, for me personally I dont believe in the Qur'an. Why? Well for arguments sake I am going to use a verse from the Bible. I am well aware of the circular argument for the Bible, so whatever. For me, this verse sums it up for me at least why I dont believe in the Qur'an. I know Muslims know who Jesus is, and they refer to him as a great prophet. However, they do not believe he is the Messiah.

 

Who is the liar?

It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist- he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1John2 v22-23.

 

My particular issue here is that whilst Muslims refer to Jesus, they do not declare him as the Christ, is Messiah, Saviour of the world, yada yada...Lord and King.

 

There is my argument. Not a very strong one. I havent really looked into the Muslim faith and the Qur'an.

 

Hi Kathlene.

 

Are you under the delusion that only christians are saved while the rest of god's earthly children, the other 70% of the world (who are not christian) will be tortured in the flames of hell for an eternity?

 

And what exactly is the criteria for one to be saved?

 

--S.

Hi Mr Ramsay...oops, Sconnor. I have to say I have been chuckling over your Gordan Ramsay comment for a day now. Very cute. I hear this fellow is quite notorious. I haven't as yet seen him on tv though to check it out myself.

 

You ask a very deep question there which had me chewing over my thoughts. I must profess that Im not that up to date on Christian theology. I will however try and take a stab at it..

 

Yet again, I will use the Bible, seeing as it really is my only tool of reference at this stage. Im not sure I will even make much sense in this either, so bear with me.

 

I am reminded of the entire passages of Acts Chapter 10 and 11 here. I once heard a sermon on people who loved God but didnt know Jesus, in that God still heard their prayers and looked after them. To me that reminds me of Cornelius in Acts. He was a God fearing man who prayed, and gave to the poor. I am sure there are many in fact millions of people on this earth like him. Now I will jump to Romans 2v12 referring to judgement. For me, people still have their own so called law in their hearts and conscience that they uphold and live up to. God will judge them according to their own so call law, if you get what I mean. In reference to forgiveness of sin though I jump back to this,

 

All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name. Acts 10v43.

 

Now I jump back to Romans 2 v1-11.

 

I dont think it is my right as a christian to judge if anyone goes to hell or not. It is my hearts desire to tell people that Gods love is there for them. I am not going to judge whether someone will go to hell or not. I have no idea about the state of anyone's heart and if I read Romans 2, 1-5 I would be better off not judging anyone about their life or sin or anything else for that matter.

 

So I didnt really in effect answer your question, and I realise that. Here is where I sit. I have said this before in another thread about hell and got stripped to shreds.

 

Sin lives in our hearts. Yours, mine, everyones. If we choose to keep on living in that state it is called spiritual death. You guys know all this, cause you were all once christians before. I am in essence, preaching to the choir.

 

Somewhere in the bible it says the wages of sin is death. If you want to die forever in that state thats what you do...keep living in that state. If however you want the gift of eternal life, then you need to be re-born of the spirit. The spirit gives life, the law brings death.

 

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1v12-13.

 

yeah yeah...you get the point. There I have managed to mangle up some sort of response to your christian. Now tear it to shreds.

[Vixentrox]

I don't see why that can't believe in some of the Quran too. Talk to a 100 Christians and they'll all have different ideas on the (make)beliefs anyway.

[dagnarus]

Are you asking whether or not Abiyoyo is a Christian or not? If so. Depends on who you ask. I'm quite certain that a lot of Christians would consider him a heretic at best. But from the point of view of a non-christian, he believes that Jesus is the Christ, therefore he's a Christian. I mean if I were to check whether or not Christ was within him like Paul said, I doubt he'd pass, but I don't believe that anyone else would either.

 

On a side note, does anyone know whether or not Christians like LNC or rayskidude actually consider the less traditional end3 and Abiyoyo to be real christians? Do they consider each other to be true Christians?

[Skankboy]

I am reminded of the entire passages of Acts Chapter 10 and 11 here. I once heard a sermon on people who loved God but didnt know Jesus, in that God still heard their prayers and looked after them. To me that reminds me of Cornelius in Acts. He was a God fearing man who prayed, and gave to the poor. I am sure there are many in fact millions of people on this earth like him. Now I will jump to Romans 2v12 referring to judgement. For me, people still have their own so called law in their hearts and conscience that they uphold and live up to. God will judge them according to their own so call law, if you get what I mean. In reference to forgiveness of sin though I jump back to this,

This is a really slipperly slope to find yourself on. If this is true, then there's no real need for jesus. God just knows if you're good enough ("based on their own so call law", as you say), then missionary work is actually sending more people to hell than anything! They may have been fine before, but because they rejected the particular message of the christian missionaries, they go to hell for rejecting jesus...

 

I'm not trying to be adversarial here. But this highlights why the bible is such an unreliable book. One part talks about original sin, another that the sons will not inherit the sins of the fathers. One part says only through christ will you get to heaven, another says that god will judge those that don't know jesus by another criteria.

 

For me, faith isn't belief in that which is unseen, it's too often blindness to that which is right in front of you.

 

IMOHO,

[chefranden]

Here is another test for god

 

Why not take all the words from all the holy books and toss them into a mixing machine. Before you start the machine have the most holy people connected to the words pray over the concoction and make sure that you have the news people and best documentary people recording the whole thing from every angle possible. Now turn on the machine and let it mix for 24 hours or a year. Now start letting the words out one at a time and write them down in the order that they come out. I'm sure that the real god will make them come out in an order that makes sense and declares him the winner. If it comes out nonsense we know there is no god. Either way we save everybody a lot of trouble.

[Shyone]

Here is another test for god

 

Why not take all the words from all the holy books and toss them into a mixing machine. Before you start the machine have the most holy people connected to the words pray over the concoction and make sure that you have the news people and best documentary people recording the whole thing from every angle possible. Now turn on the machine and let it mix for 24 hours or a year. Now start letting the words out one at a time and write them down in the order that they come out. I'm sure that the real god will make them come out in an order that makes sense and declares him the winner. If it comes out nonsense we know there is no god. Either way we save everybody a lot of trouble.

You might be setting yourself up for a "Bible Code" type scenario. People find patterns and meaning where there is none (e.g. cloud formations) and they tend to see things they "expect" or want to see.

 

Both sides would feel vindicated.

 

And atheists as well.

[Sconnor]

I dont think it is my right as a christian to judge if anyone goes to hell or not. It is my hearts desire to tell people that Gods love is there for them. I am not going to judge whether someone will go to hell or not. I have no idea about the state of anyone's heart and if I read Romans 2, 1-5 I would be better off not judging anyone about their life or sin or anything else for that matter.

 

I've heard this from hundreds of christians over the years. Isn't it perfectly obvious that this is a way for you to smooth things over or not truly address the issue?

 

In other words, you aren't letting yourself address the issue of the consequences because you find it reprehensible or untenable or both?

 

Supposedly, you have developed a certain criteria for being saved.

 

You have a specific criteria, on how to obtain salvation. You have your set beliefs, You know what your beliefs are. You want salvation, so you are going to abide by, that specific, christian criteria. And what happens to the rest of the world, who do not abide by that criteria?

 

According to scripture people who are NOT saved will reside in the flames of hell for an eternity, while, supposedly you got your ticket to funky town (heaven), because you did everything, the right way, followed the prescribed criteria -- you supposedly got the one true message from god, while the rest of the world is damned.

 

You supposedly, know what you have to do to earn eternal salvation and you believe in that set criteria, otherwise, the belief, your hedging, your bet on, are not true -- so you most assuredly, believe, that you have to be a particular christian and you have to believe in god and Jesus and whatever idiosyncratic criteria; and if you don't -- certain consequences will ensue.

 

In actuality, you are making a judgment call because in order to know how one is saved, it is implicit that others won't be.

 

What EXACTLY (in your own words) are those consequences?

 

And could you tell me exactly what your criteria is, on how one is supposedly saved; in your own words?

 

--S.

[Kathlene]

I dont think it is my right as a christian to judge if anyone goes to hell or not. It is my hearts desire to tell people that Gods love is there for them. I am not going to judge whether someone will go to hell or not. I have no idea about the state of anyone's heart and if I read Romans 2, 1-5 I would be better off not judging anyone about their life or sin or anything else for that matter.

 

I've heard this from hundreds of christians over the years. Isn't it perfectly obvious that this is a way for you to smooth things over or not truly address the issue?

 

In other words, you aren't letting yourself address the issue of the consequences because you find it reprehensible or untenable or both?

 

Supposedly, you have developed a certain criteria for being saved.

 

You have a specific criteria, on how to obtain salvation. You have your set beliefs, You know what your beliefs are. You want salvation, so you are going to abide by, that specific, christian criteria. And what happens to the rest of the world, who do not abide by that criteria?

 

According to scripture people who are NOT saved will reside in the flames of hell for an eternity, while, supposedly you got your ticket to funky town (heaven), because you did everything, the right way, followed the prescribed criteria -- you supposedly got the one true message from god, while the rest of the world is damned.

 

You supposedly, know what you have to do to earn eternal salvation and you believe in that set criteria, otherwise, the belief, your hedging, your bet on, are not true -- so you most assuredly, believe, that you have to be a particular christian and you have to believe in god and Jesus and whatever idiosyncratic criteria; and if you don't -- certain consequences will ensue.

 

In actuality, you are making a judgment call because in order to know how one is saved, it is implicit that others won't be.

 

What EXACTLY (in your own words) are those consequences?

 

And could you tell me exactly what your criteria is, on how one is supposedly saved; in your own words?

 

--S.

gasp...are you asking me to come out and preach in here? lol.

 

Ok. In all honesty you are absolutely right. I did hedge the question, and didnt answer it as bluntly as I could. I was keeping in mind your methods of er..debating, so I kept it a bit calm and ever so ...gentle.

 

What you are asking me in essence is if I am a fundamental christian or not. Not that I really know what the term means.

 

Ok cowboy..you asked, you shall receive. This is totally in my own words. I shall not use bible verses, although it would be helpful to get an understanding of my point across. You guys used to be christians, so you know it all anyway. You basically just want me to come out point blank and shoot my entire beliefs out so you can laugh and pull me down. Well, Im game.

 

How does anyone know they are saved? Because they have made Jesus their Lord, messiah and saviour. How do they do this? They ask to be forgiven of their sins, and accept the forgiveness that Jesus gives them and bought for them on the cross when he took the punishment that we all deserve.

 

Do I believe in eternal life? yes...because the work of Jesus destroyed the work of death, spiritual death, and by his resurrection eternal death.

What are the consequences for those who don't accept this gift? Well I guess they stay in their state of spiritual death during life, and when they die they go to a place where God is NOT. That can be called hell or whatever. I dont have the entire hell doctrine and theology down pat. All I understand is for someone to have the life of Jesus and be in eternal communion with him and God is to accept this and invite him into their life.

 

If you choose that this is not the path you want to go down, then I guess you stay in your spiritually dead state and follow the sinful nature in life. Because this person hasnt accepted the free gift of Jesus, and humbled themselves to recognise their sin and ask to be forgiven for the choices THEY make on this earth,...I dunno. They go to what is referred to as hell. Now Im not clear on whether it is a place of punishment, or just a place where God does not dwell with his presence. Im pretty sure you will tell me anyway, lol.

 

Is that enough for you? I await your laughter ...bwhahahahahha

[Kuroikaze]

Ok cowboy..you asked, you shall receive. This is totally in my own words. I shall not use bible verses, although it would be helpful to get an understanding of my point across. You guys used to be christians, so you know it all anyway. You basically just want me to come out point blank and shoot my entire beliefs out so you can laugh and pull me down. Well, Im game.

 

 

I can speak for others but for me, in this case, it is not about shooting down your beliefs it is about honesty. We do not soft coat our beliefs and we find it insulting when others do so.

 

If you believe it, then own up to it and admit it. You act ashamed of your beliefs. (well, in my opinion you should be ashamed of those beliefs, and the fact that so many Christians automatically try to soft coat these ideas actually supports the notion that somewhere deep down they ARE ashamed, but that is another topic)

 

The post is, that you do both yourself and us a disservice by pretending to think other than you actually think.

 

The Christians that have managed to grudgingly win the respect of some of us here have various beliefs, but they ALL have one thing in common, and that is honesty. The Christians who most often get ripped to shreds (Like our most recently LNC) generally come to that state by being dishonest in some way.

 

I can't guarantee you will not have your ass handed to you if you honest, but I can guarantee it WILL if people begin to feel you are being duplicitous here.

 

By the by, whether here or else where if you wish to have extended conversations with people with whom you disagree you will need to grow thicker skin than what I currently see you having.

 

You tend to react emotionally, remember not to take the fact that we think your beliefs are insane fantasies personally. I do not take the fact that you believe I am an evil god hating bastard doomed to eternal tortured by your god personally.

[NotBlinded]

If you choose that this is not the path you want to go down, then I guess you stay in your spiritually dead state and follow the sinful nature in life. Because this person hasnt accepted the free gift of Jesus, and humbled themselves to recognise their sin and ask to be forgiven for the choices THEY make on this earth,...I dunno.

I really don't like such superficial readings of salvation theology because there is much more that can be taken from it in a spiritual nature. But, since most people buy the notion of having a "sinful nature", it makes it much easier to get them to believe the rest, superficially, and hold them in the "faith".

 

A gift isn't even a gift, much less free, if when you decline to accept it, you get punished for it. It all ties together with the intial assumption that one has a sinful nature. Without that, the entire thing falls apart. Most of us here don't accept that premise, so the rest isn't required. But sometimes rejecting that false premise opens up an entire new way of seeing salvation theology and it doesn't belong to any religion, but to humankind.

[Shyone]

 

A gift isn't even a gift, much less free, if when you decline to accept it, you get punished for it.

 

God the Father, or the GodFather? "I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse..."

[NotBlinded]

 

A gift isn't even a gift, much less free, if when you decline to accept it, you get punished for it.

 

God the Father, or the GodFather? "I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse..."

Isn't that the truth. It's a shame what people do to themselves. Self-hate initiated all of this. They can't help themselves, so they look to some"thing" else to save them from themselves and during that looking, if saving happens, they have just saved themselves. Crazy humans...

[florduh]

This is totally in my own words. I shall not use bible verses, although it would be helpful to get an understanding of my point across. You guys used to be christians, so you know it all anyway. You basically just want me to come out point blank and shoot my entire beliefs out so you can laugh and pull me down. Well, Im game.

 

How does anyone know they are saved? Because they have made Jesus their Lord, messiah and saviour. How do they do this? They ask to be forgiven of their sins, and accept the forgiveness that Jesus gives them and bought for them on the cross when he took the punishment that we all deserve.

 

Do I believe in eternal life? yes...because the work of Jesus destroyed the work of death, spiritual death, and by his resurrection eternal death.

What are the consequences for those who don't accept this gift? Well I guess they stay in their state of spiritual death during life, and when they die they go to a place where God is NOT. That can be called hell or whatever. I dont have the entire hell doctrine and theology down pat. All I understand is for someone to have the life of Jesus and be in eternal communion with him and God is to accept this and invite him into their life.

Your own words, eh? Reads like a religious tract. "Work of Jesus . . . work of death . . ." - who talks like that? You honestly seem to be parroting things you have been told, in person or in print, by the leaders of the religion.

 

Please, please, for your own integrity, do your own thinking!

[buffettphan]

Can christians believe in the Qur'an?

 

If nothing else, they could cherry-pick it like they do the buybull.

[Kathlene]

This is totally in my own words. I shall not use bible verses, although it would be helpful to get an understanding of my point across. You guys used to be christians, so you know it all anyway. You basically just want me to come out point blank and shoot my entire beliefs out so you can laugh and pull me down. Well, Im game.

 

How does anyone know they are saved? Because they have made Jesus their Lord, messiah and saviour. How do they do this? They ask to be forgiven of their sins, and accept the forgiveness that Jesus gives them and bought for them on the cross when he took the punishment that we all deserve.

 

Do I believe in eternal life? yes...because the work of Jesus destroyed the work of death, spiritual death, and by his resurrection eternal death.

What are the consequences for those who don't accept this gift? Well I guess they stay in their state of spiritual death during life, and when they die they go to a place where God is NOT. That can be called hell or whatever. I dont have the entire hell doctrine and theology down pat. All I understand is for someone to have the life of Jesus and be in eternal communion with him and God is to accept this and invite him into their life.

Your own words, eh? Reads like a religious tract. "Work of Jesus . . . work of death . . ." - who talks like that? You honestly seem to be parroting things you have been told, in person or in print, by the leaders of the religion.

 

Please, please, for your own integrity, do your own thinking!

 

Florduh...I just read your signature and laughed so hard tears came to my eyes...Oh I love humour. Its so cool.

Anyway, regarding your post. I agree it does sound like everything I have heard, and the reason I wrote it that way, was because Sconnor asked me to. I wasn't allowed to use the Bible, so I wrote from my head and heart. Is it any different to an atheist parroting their same arguments to me, banging on and on about evidence, logic, reasoning? Someone in here brought up a topic of debate, and lo and behold in other christian forums its the same sort of debate that atheists go in there to try and argue. Its no different. I am sure that person got that debate from one of the things he read or watched on Youtube. I guess both sides can get a little regimented? I will however take your advice to heart, because you do and have so on many occasions made me laugh wildly. Any man that has such good connection with the ability for humour is pretty cool in my books.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Hey abiyoyo, are devout Muslims saved?

 

--S.

 

Before Jesus and before Mohammad, there was only one difference between a Jew and a person of Islam. That is the Jews believed they received the blessing of Abraham through Isaac, and Islam believed they received also the blessing of Abraham, through Ishmael.

 

That was the only difference between the two sects of people. Now, enter Christ for the Jews, Muhammad for the Islamic. Why wouldn't God also send someone to the Islamic?

 

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

 

What was that covenant?

 

19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him

 

The riff between modern Israel and Muslims is this in core. Muslims believe Ishmael was given the everlasting covenant, and Mohammad was a descendant of Ishmael, which is why they believe he is the final prophet.

 

Both speak of paradise, or heaven. Both say that we will be judged.

 

Sura (chapter) 2:82: "But those who have faith and work righteousness, they are companions of the Garden: Therein shall they abide (For ever)."

 

47:15: "(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord...."

 

56:27-33: "Now as for those who have attained to righteousness- what of those who have attained to righteousness? [They too will find themselves] admist fruit-laden lote-trees, and acacias flower-clad, and shade extended, and waters gushing, and fruit abounding, never-failing and never out of reach."

 

Surah 2:25: "And give good news [O Muhammad] to those who believe and do good deeds, that they will have gardens [Paradise] in which rivers flow...."

 

Was the Gospel of Christ not good news as well? Rivers of flowing water, heavenly descriptions.

 

And you are not (engaged) in any affair, nor do you recite concerning it any portion of the Quran, nor do you do any work but We are witnesses over you when you enter into it, and there does not lie concealed from your Lord the weight of an atom in the earth or in the heaven, nor any thing less than that nor greater, but it is in a clear book. S. 10:61 Shakir

 

The Unbelievers say, "Never to us will come the Hour": Say, "Nay! but most surely, by my Lord, it will come upon you; - by Him Who knows the unseen, - from Whom is not hidden the least little atom in the heavens or on earth: Nor is there anything less than that, or greater, but is in the Record Perspicuous: S. 34:3 Yusuf Ali

 

Similarities. But, here is the difference. Somehow, Christ became the only way, and somehow, belief in Him has evolved over 2000 years.

 

If it were me, I would say that the Muslims do believe that Jesus Christ was from God, which according to the Bible, would make them fit the bill of, 'I will require it of them'

[Abiyoyo]

Well according to abiyoyo, he believes god delivered his final revelation of divine guidance and direction for mankind in the form of the qur'an.

 

.... well it looks like all xians are damned then!!

 

I say that in the same sense as I would say Paul received the final revelation of divine guidance and direction for mankind in the form of the Gospel of Christ. I see Muhammad in this aspect, because there is no other aspect Muhammad is fashioned against. Muhammad and Paul are the same contemporaries in my mind. Christ came first though, so Islam included Christ and His prophetic attributes instead of the other way around.

 

Just like if Muhammad would have come first, the roles possibly, IMO, could have been reversed.