Who Are We?

[Kerplunk]

That seems rather tautological. Happiness, is by its definition, that end, sought for itself, for which all other ends drive towards. It doesn't seem to uncover much to say that we all want happiness, that's simply a truism. The difficulty is unpacking what this happiness consists of.

Good points.

 

What is happiness? Is it a state of feeling or is it a benefit we value?

 

 

Happiness is the activity of the rational soul in accordance with virtue. Or more simply, happiness is being a good thriving person.

 

-Kerplunk

[chefranden]

Happiness is the activity of the rational soul in accordance with virtue. Or more simply, happiness is being a good thriving person.

 

-Kerplunk

 

What the hell is a soul, and how do you know that it is rational?

 

I would say that thriving is the goal that happiness helps produce. But even "to thrive" is a temporary state. Permanent happiness is impossible in a human. You may maintain that you are happy and that you have been happy for a long time, but that is still not permanence.

[Shyone]

Happiness is the activity of the rational soul in accordance with virtue. Or more simply, happiness is being a good thriving person.

 

-Kerplunk

 

What the hell is a soul, and how do you know that it is rational?

 

I would say that thriving is the goal that happiness helps produce. But even "to thrive" is a temporary state. Permanent happiness is impossible in a human. You may maintain that you are happy and that you have been happy for a long time, but that is still not permanence.

The rational soul is one of the 5 "genera" of souls. It is the one that is destroyed by Alzheimer's disease, brain cancer, strokes, trauma or anything that damages brain tissue. It also is affected by abnormal brain chemistry as with insanity, various drugs (including anesthestics) and anoxia (low oxygen).

 

People born without rational souls (congenital brain abnormalities) or that develop diseases of the brain that destroy the rational soul cannot accord their brain with virtue.

 

Being a good thriving person also implies good brain function. Comatose patients cannot be considered happy.

[Ouroboros]

Happiness is the activity of the rational soul in accordance with virtue. Or more simply, happiness is being a good thriving person.

Under my long journey of life, different things have brought me happiness. I can't say your description is the only one.

 

I've met people who doesn't care for the activity of the rational soul, but they're still happy.

 

Some I've met don't believe virtue is the way to achieve moral standards, but they're still happy.

 

A few I've met were happy not pursuing a more complex life or contemplating life because they were happy in what they had.

 

So even though I can see the happiness in what you describe--I value eudaimonia--I'm not sure it accounts for all human beings.

 

---

 

A few days ago, we went to a restaurant that is connected to a half-famous brewery. The restaurant take pride in making extremely high quality food. Some of the food we had had flavors I never tasted before. I was happy. I almost got tears, that's how good it was. It was a pleasure, but it was also good quality food (healthy). But the key is, at that moment I felt happiness.

[Kerplunk]

Happiness is the activity of the rational soul in accordance with virtue. Or more simply, happiness is being a good thriving person.

 

-Kerplunk

 

What the hell is a soul, and how do you know that it is rational?

 

I would say that thriving is the goal that happiness helps produce. But even "to thrive" is a temporary state. Permanent happiness is impossible in a human. You may maintain that you are happy and that you have been happy for a long time, but that is still not permanence.

Comatose patients cannot be considered happy.

 

Yeah I'd pretty much agree there.

 

-Kerplunk

[Kerplunk]

Happiness is the activity of the rational soul in accordance with virtue. Or more simply, happiness is being a good thriving person.

 

-Kerplunk

 

What the hell is a soul, and how do you know that it is rational?

 

I would say that thriving is the goal that happiness helps produce. But even "to thrive" is a temporary state. Permanent happiness is impossible in a human. You may maintain that you are happy and that you have been happy for a long time, but that is still not permanence.

 

I agree partially, it seems that we are most happy in the activity of doing the most distinctly human things well (conversing, thinking, socializing, doing virtuous deeds, etc). Now, I don't wish to say that once the act is over, we are unhappy, otherwise every time we fell asleep to regenerate our energy, we would be unhappy (perhaps there could be something said for "sleeping virtuously".) But there may be certain impediments to happiness, (e.g. being in a sustained coma)

 

-Kerplunk

[Legion]

I think we are organisms first. And I suspect that our understandings define optimality for us and guide our behavior in achieving it. Perhaps distress occurs when sub-optimal conditions obtain, and delight occurs when optimality is achieved.

[Shyone]

I think we are organisms first. And I suspect that our understandings define optimality for us and guide our behavior in achieving it. Perhaps distress occurs when sub-optimal conditions obtain, and delight occurs when optimality is achieved.

I suppose you're right.

 

I prefer to think of it as gradients though. Going from abject poverty to middle class is a breathtaking change. It could be ecstacy provoking. A girl that you are very strongly attracted to smiles at you. Not as good as a blowjob, but still ecstacy provoking.

 

Small changes for the better, hope, a positive attitude are all conditions that can produce happiness short of "optimality." Even the hope of "optimality", however defined, may be suficient to produce happiness.

[Legion]

I think we are organisms first. And I suspect that our understandings define optimality for us and guide our behavior in achieving it. Perhaps distress occurs when sub-optimal conditions obtain, and delight occurs when optimality is achieved.

I suppose you're right.

 

I prefer to think of it as gradients though. Going from abject poverty to middle class is a breathtaking change. It could be ecstacy provoking. A girl that you are very strongly attracted to smiles at you. Not as good as a blowjob, but still ecstacy provoking.

 

Small changes for the better, hope, a positive attitude are all conditions that can produce happiness short of "optimality." Even the hope of "optimality", however defined, may be suficient to produce happiness.

I agree that we people are generally sexual and social (e.g. bartering) animals. My shared understanding, as such, is that having access to mates and social leverage is optimal. I also think we probably all have personal (i.e. private) understandings of optimality. One man's trash is another man's treasure kind of thing.

[Galien]

Legion:

I agree that we people are generally sexual and social (e.g. bartering) animals. My shared understanding, as such, is that having access to mates and social leverage is optimal. I also think we probably all have personal (i.e. private) understandings of optimality. One man's trash is another man's treasure kind of thing.

 

 

I get what you are saying Legion but I have trouble considering anyone trash. You can hang around your whole life waiting for the optimal, and end up a very lonely person.

 

I have had soul crushing depression for most of my life. For me, happiness is absence of despair. I have spent a lot of time wishing I could leave permanently, because I find it too hard to understand a human nature I seem to have very little of or very little understanding of.

 

These are the things that make me happy:

 

Babies - because they are so innocent and unpolluted by the world, a miracle of sorts

 

Sex - because it gets me out of my head, which is no small achievement

 

Cappucinos - because when I drink them, I feel like I am right where I should be

 

Deep soul connections - because they don't happen very often, and they help me to feel I am not completely alone in the world

 

Watching people grow emotionally - because it is the only thing that will make the world a better place

 

Friday afternoons - because my time is mine for 2 whole days

 

The laughter of my children - because I know I have raised happy people

[Shyone]

Legion:

I agree that we people are generally sexual and social (e.g. bartering) animals. My shared understanding, as such, is that having access to mates and social leverage is optimal. I also think we probably all have personal (i.e. private) understandings of optimality. One man's trash is another man's treasure kind of thing.

 

 

I get what you are saying Legion but I have trouble considering anyone trash. You can hang around your whole life waiting for the optimal, and end up a very lonely person.

 

I have had soul crushing depression for most of my life. For me, happiness is absence of despair. I have spent a lot of time wishing I could leave permanently, because I find it too hard to understand a human nature I seem to have very little of or very little understanding of.

 

These are the things that make me happy:

 

Babies - because they are so innocent and unpolluted by the world, a miracle of sorts

 

Sex - because it gets me out of my head, which is no small achievement

 

Cappucinos - because when I drink them, I feel like I am right where I should be

 

Deep soul connections - because they don't happen very often, and they help me to feel I am not completely alone in the world

 

Watching people grow emotionally - because it is the only thing that will make the world a better place

 

Friday afternoons - because my time is mine for 2 whole days

 

The laughter of my children - because I know I have raised happy people

That's what I was trying so ineloquently to say.

 

Sometimes it's the little things.

[Antlerman]

Why do we seek happiness, have hope, want joy? I mean I don't see this as a tribal thing/need anymore. Most are fat and reproduce at an alarming rate. Are we complete as is?

No, of course not. It is built into existence to reach beyond ourselves to the higher. It's what we reach to like a plant to the sun. It's what drives evolution. It's what spawns all systems of faith. It's that dynamic of being, particularly as reasoning, emotional beings. We create ways to express it, to engage with it, to pull ourselves toward it, to evolve, to grow, to become.

 

Answer your question?

[Legion]

I get what you are saying Legion but I have trouble considering anyone trash. You can hang around your whole life waiting for the optimal, and end up a very lonely person.

Where did I imply that anyone was trash? Geez. I'm only saying that as we are sexual organisms it is preferable for us to have access to mates.

[NotBlinded]

I get what you are saying Legion but I have trouble considering anyone trash. You can hang around your whole life waiting for the optimal, and end up a very lonely person.

Where did I imply that anyone was trash? Geez. I'm only saying that as we are sexual organisms it is preferable for us to have access to mates.

Gah Legion...that wasn't very nice of you.

 

 

[Guest end3]

Why do we seek happiness, have hope, want joy? I mean I don't see this as a tribal thing/need anymore. Most are fat and reproduce at an alarming rate. Are we complete as is?

No, of course not. It is built into existence to reach beyond ourselves to the higher. It's what we reach to like a plant to the sun. It's what drives evolution. It's what spawns all systems of faith. It's that dynamic of being, particularly as reasoning, emotional beings. We create ways to express it, to engage with it, to pull ourselves toward it, to evolve, to grow, to become.

 

Answer your question?

 

I was thinking today that in light of technology that facilitates less personal communication, i.e., less face to face, this allows for a better insight to who we really are. And despite leaders, people that "shine", the moral norm seems to lean towards poor/uncontrolled.

 

Why would we tend to display more morality face to face? I don't know that the answer comes to me immediately.

 

So, to your statement, I don't have any data, but evidence suggests that we aren't really programmed to reach, but are forced into it by physical/social realationships. Faith is a solution for abiding when we lack acceptable skills to fit in?

[Phanta]

The rational soul is one of the 5 "genera" of souls. It is the one that is destroyed by Alzheimer's disease, brain cancer, strokes, trauma or anything that damages brain tissue. It also is affected by abnormal brain chemistry as with insanity, various drugs (including anesthestics) and anoxia (low oxygen).

 

All caused by demons. Brain-eating zombie demons.

 

Phanta

[lunaticheathen]

Why do we seek happiness, have hope, want joy? I mean I don't see this as a tribal thing/need anymore. Most are fat and reproduce at an alarming rate. Are we complete as is?

No, of course not. It is built into existence to reach beyond ourselves to the higher. It's what we reach to like a plant to the sun. It's what drives evolution. It's what spawns all systems of faith. It's that dynamic of being, particularly as reasoning, emotional beings. We create ways to express it, to engage with it, to pull ourselves toward it, to evolve, to grow, to become.

 

Answer your question?

Again, AM, you say what I feel.

[J.W.]

Why do we seek happiness, have hope, want joy? I mean I don't see this as a tribal thing/need anymore. Most are fat and reproduce at an alarming rate. Are we complete as is?

 

It follows Maslows Hierarchy of Needs. Self Actualization comes only after our other needs are met. Pleasure reinforces things that increase survival. Pain restrains self destructive behavior. Joy is the attainment of pleasure while successfully avoiding pain. Self Actualization I believe is fairly new and solely ours due to our reasoning brain. We are driven for reasons of survival, but if those needs are met then we can be driven by Self Actualization [which could be just about anything that floats your boat].

 

 

Survive! -----> Needs met ------> Okay Do What I Want -----> [Hard times]------> Survive Again!------>

[Guest end3]

Why do we seek happiness, have hope, want joy? I mean I don't see this as a tribal thing/need anymore. Most are fat and reproduce at an alarming rate. Are we complete as is?

 

It follows Maslows Hierarchy of Needs. Self Actualization comes only after our other needs are met. Pleasure reinforces things that increase survival. Pain restrains self destructive behavior. Joy is the attainment of pleasure while successfully avoiding pain. Self Actualization I believe is fairly new and solely ours due to our reasoning brain. We are driven for reasons of survival, but if those needs are met then we can be driven by Self Actualization [which could be just about anything that floats your boat].

 

 

Survive! -----> Needs met ------> Okay Do What I Want -----> [Hard times]------> Survive Again!------>

 

 

I can accept that as a concept, but it may just be that. I am swayed by personal experience and intuition regarding a path set for me that is ultimately not mine by choice...maybe. Certainly there is choice mixed in, but... I don't really subscribe to predestination, but sometimes I think I can see things, relationships, that make me think something is being done outside of my will.

 

Let me give you an example of my crazy thoughts. The other night I had a dream about my hand being tight...like really dry skin. I made a fist and my hand loosened and many large scales fell to the ground...like the size of a drink coaster...maybe 60 of them floating to the ground. End of dream. The word that stuck in my mind the next day was distinctly "scales". I then did a word search on scales and found out where "scales" fell of of Paul's eyes.

 

Now, hands would to me would represent a physical something to me......The day after that, I get a call from a company that wants me to start a business that would double my wife's and my income at least....as well as I also hear from a company that has been looking at my invention for some time.....I had thought that they had forgotten me, but then contacted me and wanted me to send more data and pictures.

 

Long story short, giving some weight to the Spirit for these events and associating this to the dream, I feel I am being made to prosper for a reason that has to do with not me, but perhaps one of my children or some future need of others.

 

Certainly it's a choice to think like this as my hand could have been stuck under my pillow.....and the business proposition could be that I was in that business for 15 years and was moderately decent at it.....so I see both sides, but have a hard time ignoring the Spiritual interpretation.

[Shyone]

Certainly it's a choice to think like this as my hand could have been stuck under my pillow.....and the business proposition could be that I was in that business for 15 years and was moderately decent at it.....so I see both sides, but have a hard time ignoring the Spiritual interpretation.

I don't mean to minimise the complexity of your situation or interpretation, but consider that anything that actually happened did so by natural means. People helping people, success, etc.

 

Remember what Woody Allen said, "If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss bank.”

 

Good fortune is no more due to Yahweh than to Fortuna (pbuh). There are coincidences, good fortune, hard work and generous people. Any one of these things can be a good thing for an individual.

 

I suspect all Christians use prayer to satisfy their earthly needs to some extent. When you actually believe that a being that could "create gold" could also grant you three wishes, it would only be natural to wish. Your needs are, however, trivial compared with the needs of others no matter how dire your situation may seem to you.

 

Surely you have read about how Dan Barker prayed for a good parking space (because he was in a hurry) and Lo and Behold a parking space opened up close to the building. He felt his prayer was answered. He now sees that as absolutely silly, and so do all atheists. How about you?

[Guest end3]

Certainly it's a choice to think like this as my hand could have been stuck under my pillow.....and the business proposition could be that I was in that business for 15 years and was moderately decent at it.....so I see both sides, but have a hard time ignoring the Spiritual interpretation.

I don't mean to minimise the complexity of your situation or interpretation, but consider that anything that actually happened did so by natural means. People helping people, success, etc.

 

Remember what Woody Allen said, "If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss bank.”

 

Good fortune is no more due to Yahweh than to Fortuna (pbuh). There are coincidences, good fortune, hard work and generous people. Any one of these things can be a good thing for an individual.

 

I suspect all Christians use prayer to satisfy their earthly needs to some extent. When you actually believe that a being that could "create gold" could also grant you three wishes, it would only be natural to wish. Your needs are, however, trivial compared with the needs of others no matter how dire your situation may seem to you.

 

Surely you have read about how Dan Barker prayed for a good parking space (because he was in a hurry) and Lo and Behold a parking space opened up close to the building. He felt his prayer was answered. He now sees that as absolutely silly, and so do all atheists. How about you?

 

Yeah, but the scales dream was wild.....no radio, no TV. When I woke up Shy, even then, I thought it was some type of God dream before I did the word search. I can see both sides but just can't go to the natural one. And I am contemplating this in my head at this time, we can't create, we are just manipulators. I find it interesting that the Bible talks about being created in the image of God. God creates. I know that thought is random, but is what has been on my mind of late.

[Shyone]

Yeah, but the scales dream was wild.....no radio, no TV. When I woke up Shy, even then, I thought it was some type of God dream before I did the word search. I can see both sides but just can't go to the natural one. And I am contemplating this in my head at this time, we can't create, we are just manipulators. I find it interesting that the Bible talks about being created in the image of God. God creates. I know that thought is random, but is what has been on my mind of late.

Interesting!

 

But what has God created lately? Does he create trees, or do they grow from seeds that come from other trees? Does he create humans, or do they come from the union of sperm and egg by artificial insemination, intracytoplasmic sperm injection, rape and intercourse? Does God create water for rain, or does that water come from preexisting sources like oceans, lakes and rivers?

 

Things seem to me to be humming along quite nicely without a god doing much of anything.

 

So it appears that you are referring to some "original act of creation" before the earth existed - and conveniently before we can observe the atoms and molecules spewing forth from the fingers of - Oh, wait, no fingers, no matter or material, no energy.

 

I am reminded of some creation myths where some god ejaculated and his semen ultimately resulted in the earth.

 

The story is that Atum used auto-fellatio and ejaculated Shu and Tefnut into his mouth. He then spat them out.

 

Later as the religion developed more fully there was concern that there was no female involved in the "birth" of Shu and Tefnut. Accordingly, the story has changed so that Atum was of dual sexuality. He used his hand, representing his feminine part, to masturbate. Shu and Tefnut come directly from his penis to the ground.

 

That story predates the Hebrew story by about 2000-3000 years (4000 BCE). Atum, btw, created himself amidst the chaotic waters. That didn't bother the Egyptians.

 

So "creation" is either a vague concept relating to events about which we know little, or it's something else you haven't defined. I see all nature as operating on natural principles (duh) and I do not make exception for the ancient history of the universe just because I'm ignorant of it.

[Franko47]

Actually, I can relate a bit to what End is saying; there have been times where it seemed no matter what I did, my life-path was going to go "here" instead of "there". Either outcome might have been fine, but sometimes I think that we are guided at a sub-conscious or intuitive level about things. There may be little difference between that, and thinking about it in "faith" terms as well; considering that some decisions I've made and other people have made in life have often put the well-being of family and loved ones first perhaps before more personal wants.

 

As well, dreams often send us messages, another bizarre working of our brains. Again, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are "sent" from some divine source, but more the kind of idea that it is part of our substance to have such abilities. Whether God-given or otherwise.

 

Destiny. It's interesting.