★ Citsonga ★ Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Hey, Valk, there's a former co-worker of mine that I added on Facebook a while ago. He's a young-earth fundamentalist who loves to argue so I thought I'd link this thread to him so he could take a shot at presenting a case for Christianity (seeing as you're getting a pretty one-sided set of comments here). This was his response: This person has already made up their mind on the path that they want to go. If it was an honest doubt then they would be open to the possibility of God instead of being close minded. They are searching for reinforcement to doubt and ways to doubt and argue against anyone who may offer good info into God and the Bible. Translation: "I don't have any answers, so I'll just attack the questioner." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
godlessgrrl Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 As Paul stated, without the resurrection we are fools. I am going to see if I am a fool. I have made up my mind to see by this time next year to find the truth. I need to decide this once and for all. Enough of this crap. No fear of hell back pedaling. I need to research Christianity so fully that I will never have a doubt either way.Got any skeptic recommendations. Christians got any good apologetics book to recommend. Also any good way to go about looking about how to be a better skeptic/debator/arguer. Whenever I have to figure something out I always find it very useful to ask myself what my own motivations and needs are, and where they come from. Why do I want to figure out a given thing, what do I think I'm going to get out of it, why do I need that sort of thing, and so on - a full self-questioning and self-examination, really. So if I were in your shoes I'd probably ask myself things like: what do I hope to get out of this? Why do I need not to have any doubts? What would happen if I did have a doubt either way? Why do I consider X piece of "evidence" to be evidence for what I think it's evidence for? Why do I think I'm going to find the truth in a year when countless other people have spent thousands of years looking for the same thing and having questionable success? Question everything, even yourself. Especially yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valkyrie0010 Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Hey, Valk, there's a former co-worker of mine that I added on Facebook a while ago. He's a young-earth fundamentalist who loves to argue so I thought I'd link this thread to him so he could take a shot at presenting a case for Christianity (seeing as you're getting a pretty one-sided set of comments here). This was his response: This person has already made up their mind on the path that they want to go. If it was an honest doubt then they would be open to the possibility of God instead of being close minded. They are searching for reinforcement to doubt and ways to doubt and argue against anyone who may offer good info into God and the Bible. Call me closed minded. Heh. If there is something I am missing from arguements for Christianity I would love to hear it. But no I am close minded. WTF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost_warlock Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Call me closed minded. Heh. If there is something I am missing from arguements for Christianity I would love to hear it. But no I am close minded. WTF Yeah, he's kind of a dick and he definitely uses a different definition of logic than the generally accepted one. Still, I figured he might like to try fighting the "good fight" here so I gave him a chance. Oh well, sorry he decided to just insult you instead. Also, when I came home from work today I found he'd posted this on my wall: Here is something for you to check out if you dare get out of your comfort zone. Becarefull because it might expand your horizons. There are plenty of mp3 to listen to and I think you might enjoy some of it. http://rzim.org/resources.aspx I can't evaluate Mr. Zacharias' apologetics because I'm honestly not interested in listening to them. I can say that his arguments against evolution are garbage, though. 2nd law of thermodynamics? People still try to pretend this is in any way prohibitive of evolution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 I can't evaluate Mr. Zacharias' apologetics because I'm honestly not interested in listening to them. I can say that his arguments against evolution are garbage, though. 2nd law of thermodynamics? People still try to pretend this is in any way prohibitive of evolution? I can. I've listened to several hundred of Dr. Zacharias's apologetics presentations. (I drive a truck for a living and have hours with the radio. I tend to have a morbid fascination with the Christian broadcast industry for political reasons and due to simply wanting to keep track of what these assholes are saying to the sheep, what types of dishonorable psychological control techniques they use and so on.) Dr. Zacharias is one of my most detested figures, along with R. C. Sproul. They are the epitome of the technique of sounding scholarly, without any substance. They rely very heavily on the old Pauline tactic of frequent repetition in any form possible of, "Remember, I'm a theological scholar and you're not." It's like the tag line from the satirical Doctor Science radio show: "Remember, he knows more... than you do!" I could go on at length about the two of them, but won't hijack this thread for it. Suffice to say, imo, they are the worst of the worst. I find them detestable. They never fail to fill me with revulsion. At this point, I cannot see them as anything other than deeply dishonest and almost completely amoral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Valkyrie, I'm going to come at the resurrection from a different angle. One of the most penetrating and vital factors in my own deconversion was my investigations into what the actual Jewish religious doctrines were and are, as opposed to what the Bible and Christian apologists claim that they are, as well as the actual reasons that twenty centuries of Jewish scholars have not accepted Jesus as any kind of messiah, as opposed to the reasons the Christians give for it. It's like night and day. To make a very long story short, the actual Jewish mainstream doctrines make Jesus completely irrelevant in all ways, including the resurrection. This irrelevance becomes so extremely clear that it becomes obvious that Jesus could actually have existed, died on a cross and come back to life and it still would make no difference. I would highly recommend that you pursue reliable rabbinical sources on all matters pertaining to the significance of any aspect of the core doctrines around Jesus. It's stuff that you will never hear from a damned Christian pulpit or apologetics source and it's a real eye-opener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Valkyrie, I'm going to come at the resurrection from a different angle. From inside the tomb... mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Answersinfantasy.org doesn't answer questions. It spews mud over the questions, lies, distorts and misleads. To be fair, she didn't say it was accurate; just that it was a Christian favorite. thankyou, I assure you my intention was not to mislead anyone but to allow a more thorough study of common apologetics. However, I understand and accept the hostility. This is not my turf, I know that; some of you have been hurt, I understand; some believe that Christianity holds no truth, I respect them for that. I am here to listen, to learn and to lend what little understanding I have to those who wish it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Answersinfantasy.org doesn't answer questions. It spews mud over the questions, lies, distorts and misleads. To be fair, she didn't say it was accurate; just that it was a Christian favorite. thankyou, I assure you my intention was not to mislead anyone but to allow a more thorough study of common apologetics. However, I understand and accept the hostility. This is not my turf, I know that; some of you have been hurt, I understand; some believe that Christianity holds no truth, I respect them for that. I am here to listen, to learn and to lend what little understanding I have to those who wish it. If you will put my disparaging remark aside, I do seriously think that a thorough review of Talkorigins.org would be helpful. They do include common apologetics, but then proceed to refute them relentlessly, and they facts they use are well documented and verifiable - not to mention published in peer reviewed literature. If you want to see some really great videos that address the concerns of Christians in a compassionate but critical way, the videos by Evid3nc3 are very well put together (and entertaining as well). The most interesting part is where he speaks and describes the many different ways that Christians hold on to their faith in the face of criticism. He then examines each of them and shows that they have no validity with regard to the truth of Christianity. Of course, every Christian's beliefs are slightly different (another reason to doubt the bible, since everyone has some problem with some aspect of someone elses theology), but I think you'll find some answers there. Reading why believers have rejected the faith, particularly books the take the time to carefully explain their reasoning, is enlightening, to say the least. c.f. Kenneth Daniels, Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary. As for Christian apologetics, if you read those alone, you will be fooled. If you read them side by side with the explanations for why the apologetics fall short, you will see the distortion of the truth for what it is. I gather that you have buried yourself in apologetics. Try digging yourself out if you wish to actually learn about the world. It may be the key that turns your lock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loren Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Valkyrie, I'm going to come at the resurrection from a different angle. From inside the tomb... mwc I picture Jesus pounding frantically on the stone blocking the entrance and yelling, "HELP!!! There's this guy in here and he keeps asking me... these questions! He won't stop! And he's so damned cheerful about it! Somebody GET ME THE HELL OUT OF HERE!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DUBsays� Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 There are numerous wonderful sources, but a decent starting place is Marshall Brain's "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?". The site presents some very basic but difficult questions for believers, and is a good starting point. A good introductory book is "Atheist Universe" by David Mills. For more deep philosophical points you can graduate to the George Smiths, Michael Martins, and Daniel Dennetts. For historical and philological issues you can refer to the Richard Carriers and Robert Prices. For the scientific aspects there's always Richard Dawkins and Victor Stenger. For demographic and social issues you have Phil Zuckermans. There are so many disciplines that this covers. This is natural, since religion attempts to be an explanation for everything, but to question it and defend your position, and atheist needs to have cursory knowledge of numerous fields. The internet is rich with information, and somebody mentioned The Rejection of Pascal's Wager, which is excellent. Infidels.org has an extensive online library, and the source for biological evidence is Talk Origins. Religious Tolerance and Adherents ares the places to go for comparative religion. You'll enjoy the journey, and the reward is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 my thanks to everyone for the wonderful sources Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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