Hi

[Guest end3]

So how's worshiping a butchering monster that orders his faithful to commit genocide and rip open the bellies of pregnant women working for you then?

What is vixentrox?

That's your god if you are a Christian. If you were a Christian a long time you should know these things.

 

Pardon the interruption... I have never had and answer to my answer for this Vix....Vigil was saying the other day that data suggests that if a child is exposed to a belief system like Christianity, that almost 100% of the time they will be Christians when they grow up. So if they were raised by some evil belief system, they won't be evil when they grow up?

 

I would like to know your thoughts.

[Vixentrox]

Dude hasn't bothered to give an answer yet...figures.

 

End3, if someone is raised in an evil system like Christianity, chances are they will absorb and copy those evil values. It isn't a certainty o course. Human nature can't be so easily boiled down and there will always be people that go against the norm.

[Phanta]

Will he answer?

He may if you answer what he asked you first, but I'm not his boss.

So I guess this is where I'm supposed to say, "maybe I'll answer if he answers." Or how about, "how do I know he'll answer if I answer?"

 

You can't know. We conform only to the very loosest of rules here, so you will see all variety of motives for engagement and disengagement of topics and visitors. So, maybe he won't. Maybe it will be all one-directional for a while. Maybe it will be one-directional forever. Is that a problem? Nosce te ipsum, or find out, fast! You have found your way straight into the "Maze of Death" (h/t @End3). There are better paths for some, and worse ones.

 

There is no such thing as a problem without a gift for you in its hands. You seek problems because you need their gifts. - Richard Bach

 

Perhaps there are gifts here for you.

 

Welcome!

 

Phanta

[Legion]

Seems only fair that I should be able to ask in proportion to being asked. Don't you think?

Yes, I agree. Welcome to ex-C OrdinaryClay. You are fresh meat, so it's understandable that you are being bombarded with questions.

 

But many of us also welcome your questions. I hope they are creative, penetrating and enlightening.

[Shyone]

Dude hasn't bothered to give an answer yet...figures.

 

End3, if someone is raised in an evil system like Christianity, chances are they will absorb and copy those evil values. It isn't a certainty o course. Human nature can't be so easily boiled down and there will always be people that go against the norm.

I've noticed two things about religion and "goodness."

 

First, religions change in response to changes in societal values. We didn't stop burning witches because religion decided witches don't exist or that the punishment was no longer appropriate. Society changed instead.

 

Second, when people are convinced that "God is good", they will make him good. They will ignore the evil aspects, deny even God when He says "I create evil", and either ignore or justify the most horrible aspects of their beliefs while still rationalizing them. That is why there is no good answer to why God ordered the slaughter of so many children. Saying "they go to heaven" is tantamount to saying that people that kill children should be praised above all others for saving the child's eternal soul.

 

What they used to say is, "Fuck yeah, God kills children. What of it? He's good, he's bad, he can be one mean motherfucker, so don't fuckin' mess with him! He'll snuff out your firstborn if he doesn't like you, he'll have his people rip your unborn from your belly, smash their heads on rocks and make you feel really, really bad. K?"

 

Christians even have tried to twist hell in to a merciful thing, when anyone in their right mind knows better.

 

It's a damned good thing God and hell don't exist.

[Guest end3]

Christians even have tried to twist hell in to a merciful thing, when anyone in their right mind knows better.

 

I really liked your prose rap Doc...didn't know you had it in you. To the bolded: That would be today's version of right? Sure, it's hard to imagine any other take throughout history for us. I agree.

[Shyone]

Christians even have tried to twist hell in to a merciful thing, when anyone in their right mind knows better.

 

I really liked your prose rap Doc...didn't know you had it in you. To the bolded: That would be today's version of right? Sure, it's hard to imagine any other take throughout history for us. I agree.

I'm not understanding you. Are you claiming that hell is a merciful place, or that going to hell is an example of God's mercy, or that eternal punishment with no possibility of parole is a merciful form of justice? These are crazy ideas by the standards of anyone that is sane. If you think hell is merciful, you are insane. Not in your right mind. Loony tunes. Off your rocker.

 

Without rationalizing beyond sanity, the concept of hell is devoid of mercy in any respect. And assuming that god could do something omnisciently and omnipotently for the souls sent there, if he doesn't he would be acting without mercy. That such a concept exists in the Bible is evidence that the bible is fantasy.

 

Given that God doesn't exist, I would be crazy to think that God does anything, or that hell is real.

[OrdinaryClay]

OC, are you a young earth creationist?

No.I believe the scientific method.

 

Assuming you will ask the natural followup questions, the best way to describe my position on biological evolution on earth is Theistic Evolution with caveats. My caveats originate from some of the ideas put forward by ID proponents and in the area of the OOL.

 

Actually I was planning on approaching it from a more theistic point of view. Genesis 1:30 states:

 

"30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so."

 

This line implies that before the fall, there was no death in the world. What is your take on it? Was there death in the world before the fall?

You need to elaborate. How exactly did you arrive at your interpretation?

 

Yes, as I stated I'm for the most part a theistic evolutionist so I believe biological organisms have lived and died as long as the earth has had life. It follows from what I said. How long is that, well current best science says at least 3.8 billions years. Some argue longer.

[OrdinaryClay]

Hi and Welcome to the board.

 

Sorry you stumbled into the Lion's Den right off.

 

I hope you get out with all your bits.

Hi, thanks for the welcome. No worries, I look before I step.

[Guest end3]

I'm not understanding you. Are you claiming that hell is a merciful place, or that going to hell is an example of God's mercy, or that eternal punishment with no possibility of parole is a merciful form of justice? These are crazy ideas by the standards of anyone that is sane. If you think hell is merciful, you are insane. Not in your right mind. Loony tunes. Off your rocker.

No, I think hell is probably close to what it states...maybe not literal fire, but certainly a place void of hope, joy, etc...

 

Without rationalizing beyond sanity, the concept of hell is devoid of mercy in any respect. And assuming that god could do something omnisciently and omnipotently for the souls sent there, if he doesn't he would be acting without mercy. That such a concept exists in the Bible is evidence that the bible is fantasy.

What is extreme enough for humanity? The serial killer that doesn't repent in the face of execution? You get my point. And perhaps I may be misunderstanding, but you think there is a time before the final judgment to consider these things, those that have not believed the first time? You know, it does suggest there will be more than one harvest...but I would have to brush up on the theory.

 

Given that God doesn't exist, I would be crazy to think that God does anything, or that hell is real.

 

I don't argue for Santa anymore, why do you persist in discussing God?

[Shyone]

Hi and Welcome to the board.

 

Sorry you stumbled into the Lion's Den right off.

 

I hope you get out with all your bits.

Hi, thanks for the welcome. No worries, I look before I step.

Where have you looked, and what have you stepped in?

 

Rather, what have you read, and what kind of education do you bring to the table? I'm not meaning to suggest that you might be unprepared, but if we have read the same books then it will be easier to reference material.

[OrdinaryClay]

I've asked myself all the hard questions and personally feel very comfortable in my belief.

All of them? That's a huge statement. How do you know that you have asked yourself all of the hard questions? Is there a list somewhere, did God reveal it to you, or do you have some mental powers where you can discern the totality of all possible hard questions about God? I'm just wondering.

 

But if it's hyperbole, then you're not being completely honest, and truly, it's a form of lying.

 

So which is it?

Ha-ha, fair point. Do I know conclusively I've asked every possible question that may be considered hard by everyone, no. Nor, was it meant as hyperbole. Let me rephrase for precisions.

 

I've asked myself every hard question that I have thought of, and every question others ask publicly (with the obvious caveat I have known limits due to time and access), and which they seemed to have thought of as hard (assuming an admittedly subjective evaluation of the notion of hard) .

 

Of course, this is not meant to imply or assume that there do not exist questions of which I have no knowledge of and which may be considered hard (assuming an admittedly subjective evaluation of the notion of hard).

[Legion]

Where have you looked, and what have you stepped in?

I imagine he (I'm assuming OrdinaryClay is male) has been watching us. And it is us into which he has stepped.

[Ouroboros]

Ha-ha, fair point. Do I know conclusively I've asked every possible question that may be considered hard by everyone, no. Nor, was it meant as hyperbole. Let me rephrase for precisions.

 

I've asked myself every hard question that I have thought of, and every question others ask publicly (with the obvious caveat I have known limits due to time and access), and which they seemed to have thought of as hard (assuming an admittedly subjective evaluation of the notion of hard) .

 

Of course, this is not meant to imply or assume that there do not exist questions of which I have no knowledge of and which may be considered hard (assuming an admittedly subjective evaluation of the notion of hard).

Good answer.

 

I could say that I've asked many of the hard questions too, and I find them faulty or incomplete on many levels, and therefore they're not strong enough to convince me to convert back again. Perhaps I have some questions you never thought of before? Who knows.

 

Welcome, and hold on to your hat because it can get really wild in here.

[OrdinaryClay]

OC, are you a young earth creationist?

No.I believe the scientific method.

 

Assuming you will ask the natural followup questions, the best way to describe my position on biological evolution on earth is Theistic Evolution with caveats. My caveats originate from some of the ideas put forward by ID proponents and in the area of the OOL.

Well, hell, that's no fun. Of course, the purpose of these questions is to determine your level of ignorance and gullibility. Please don't take them personally.

Thanks for your concern. Do you think they were meant personally?

 

Do you handle snakes?

Garters. While I enjoy herpetology it has never risen to any significant level.

 

Drink poison (other than moonshine)?

Well my cardiologists always says pharmacology is a form of well controlled and properly managed poison.

 

Do you talk in tongues? Get slain in the spirit? Do you have the gift of prophecy?

Oh, I see you are probing for caricatured weaknesses. Well, I do believe in the supernatural and that God is a real being that communicates to His creation.

[Skankboy]

I don't argue for Santa anymore, why do you persist in discussing God?

Because very few people try to legislate based on the ideas of Santa...

 

Very few people are discriminated because of their disbelief in Santa...

 

Because for some reason when people grow up they stop beleiving in Santa, but still believe in the other fat man that's always watching you...

 

OC - a lot of people believe that the god as portrayed in the Bible did some pretty horrible things. They're pretty much asking how you reconcile this with common belief that he is a loving god.

[Shyone]

 

Given that God doesn't exist, I would be crazy to think that God does anything, or that hell is real.

 

I don't argue for Santa anymore, why do you persist in discussing God?

Santa believers don't feel entitled to pass laws to place effigies of Santa in schoolrooms; they don't get tax breaks for their meetings; they don't discriminate against those who don't believe as they do in a concerted fashion. Santa believers don't feel entitled to revise zoning restrictions for MegaWorkshops. Santa believers have never denied life-saving medical care to someone because their beliefs required it. Santa believers have not persuaded the Government to send my tax dollars to some Faith Biased recruitment drive disguised as charity.

 

I don't argue for God anymore, why did you raise the question of Santa?

 

 

I do find the two beliefs to be very similar. It is their consequences that differ.

[OrdinaryClay]

Hi and Welcome to the board.

 

Sorry you stumbled into the Lion's Den right off.

 

I hope you get out with all your bits.

Hi, thanks for the welcome. No worries, I look before I step.

Where have you looked, and what have you stepped in?

 

Rather, what have you read, and what kind of education do you bring to the table? I'm not meaning to suggest that you might be unprepared, but if we have read the same books then it will be easier to reference material.

Again, thanks for your concern. Don't worry, I'm willing to provide citations when needed.

[OrdinaryClay]

Ha-ha, fair point. Do I know conclusively I've asked every possible question that may be considered hard by everyone, no. Nor, was it meant as hyperbole. Let me rephrase for precisions.

 

I've asked myself every hard question that I have thought of, and every question others ask publicly (with the obvious caveat I have known limits due to time and access), and which they seemed to have thought of as hard (assuming an admittedly subjective evaluation of the notion of hard) .

 

Of course, this is not meant to imply or assume that there do not exist questions of which I have no knowledge of and which may be considered hard (assuming an admittedly subjective evaluation of the notion of hard).

Good answer.

 

I could say that I've asked many of the hard questions too, and I find them faulty or incomplete on many levels, and therefore they're not strong enough to convince me to convert back again.

The questions or the answers? Faulty and incomplete that is.

 

Perhaps I have some questions you never thought of before? Who knows.

Probably.

 

Welcome, and hold on to your hat because it can get really wild in here.

Thanks for the welcome.

[Shyone]

Well, I do believe in the supernatural and that God is a real being that communicates to His creation.

This, of course, raises another thousand questions.

 

Where is God, what does he look like, what is he made of, and how would you distinguish him from nothing? How does he communicate? Is this objectively detectable, or just "in your head"?

 

Do dead people come back to life sometimes? Do you believe Mohammed road a winged horse? Did Mohammed rise bodily into heaven? Did Jesus rise bodily into heaven? How about Caesar Augustus?

 

Do you think Jesus was born of a virgin? Did Mary rise bodily into heaven? Did Jesus have biologically related brothers?

 

Did God sacrifice himself to himself? Why did he do that?

 

Is God omniscient and omnipresent? Was he always? How did people "hide" from him in the old days? What took so long for God to realize that a tower was being built in Babel to reach the sky? How tall was that tower? Do you think Noah made special trips to Australia and the Americas?

 

Do you think Jesus really turned water into wine, or was that like the claim of the guy that claimed a witch turned him into a newt? Do you think that the guy in Monty Python really turned into a newt? Has any witch at any time every turned anyone into a newt?

 

Do you use the Malleus Maleficarum to identify witches, or is there a new Christian Apologetic Standard Witch Identification System (CASWIS)?

 

The bible does say not to allow a witch to live, but is burning necessary, or can we now use lethal injection? Or is sedation allowed before burning the witches?

 

Do you pray for people that get sick? Why; to do god's will or to fix them?

[Shyone]

Again, thanks for your concern. Don't worry, I'm willing to provide citations when needed.

My reason for asking is that quotations or citations from books that are written to keep people ignorant, or Holy Scriptures such as the Qu'ran or the Bible, have no ability to influence someone that doesn't already believe the myths they represent.

 

Have you buried your head in apologetic literature? Have you seriously studied biology?

 

"Beware the man of one book."

[Brakeman]

I'd like to hear his apologia on the Tower Of Babel!

 

Oh and why John the baptist couldn't free himself by his faith, nor could Jesus raise him from the dead.

 

We have sooooo many questions!!!

 

I hope you don't forget my questions!

 

I'd love to answer any of yours. What would you like to know?

[Guest end3]

I don't argue for Santa anymore, why do you persist in discussing God?

Because very few people try to legislate based on the ideas of Santa...

 

Very few people are discriminated because of their disbelief in Santa...

 

Because for some reason when people grow up they stop beleiving in Santa, but still believe in the other fat man that's always watching you...

 

OC - a lot of people believe that the god as portrayed in the Bible did some pretty horrible things. They're pretty much asking how you reconcile this with common belief that he is a loving god.

 

Good points, as I have not been on your side, I hadn't noticed these points, but which would help me to consider.

[Guest end3]

name='Shyone' date='19 February 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1266601680' post='534020']

I don't argue for God anymore, why did you raise the question of Santa?

 

Just thinking if there is truly little validity to something in my mind, I don't ponder it much. Wondering why you continue to argue against Christianity.

 

Please excuse me Clay for interrupting your thread....welcome!

[NotBlinded]

Garters. While I enjoy herpetology it has never risen to any significant level.

 

HA! For some reason I wasn't thinking snakes when you said Garters.

 

Welcome OC.