Hi

[NotBlinded]

Given that God doesn't exist, I would be crazy to think that God does anything, or that hell is real.

 

I don't argue for Santa anymore, why do you persist in discussing God?

Now wait just one gosh-darn minute. If we were arguing Santa existed, I'm pretty sure you would argue against it. (God, I love that emoticon!)

[OrdinaryClay]

Well, I do believe in the supernatural and that God is a real being that communicates to His creation.

This, of course, raises another thousand questions.

 

Where is God, what does he look like, what is he made of, and how would you distinguish him from nothing? How does he communicate? Is this objectively detectable, or just "in your head"?

 

Do dead people come back to life sometimes? Do you believe Mohammed road a winged horse? Did Mohammed rise bodily into heaven? Did Jesus rise bodily into heaven? How about Caesar Augustus?

 

Do you think Jesus was born of a virgin? Did Mary rise bodily into heaven? Did Jesus have biologically related brothers?

 

Did God sacrifice himself to himself? Why did he do that?

 

Is God omniscient and omnipresent? Was he always? How did people "hide" from him in the old days? What took so long for God to realize that a tower was being built in Babel to reach the sky? How tall was that tower? Do you think Noah made special trips to Australia and the Americas?

 

Do you think Jesus really turned water into wine, or was that like the claim of the guy that claimed a witch turned him into a newt? Do you think that the guy in Monty Python really turned into a newt? Has any witch at any time every turned anyone into a newt?

 

Do you use the Malleus Maleficarum to identify witches, or is there a new Christian Apologetic Standard Witch Identification System (CASWIS)?

 

The bible does say not to allow a witch to live, but is burning necessary, or can we now use lethal injection? Or is sedation allowed before burning the witches?

 

Do you pray for people that get sick? Why; to do god's will or to fix them?

Wow. That is a lot. Maybe we can organize these questions into common groups. Equivalence classes if you will.

 

Question Class: "Does God have a wart on His nose?"

Answer: I don't know.

 

Question Class: "Do you believe in miracles?"

Answer: Yes. My position follows along the lines of Hume's Abject Failure

 

Question Class: "What are the metaphysical properties of God?"

Answer: The usual omni-properties, as well as timeless.

 

Question Class: "Do you believe in Biblical inerrancy?"

Answer: The Bible contains truth. I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God. The Bible is large collection of literature reflecting different genres. It is not a science book. There are parts I don't understand. For example, does my faith rest on the fact I can not resolve the Noah story with science. No.

 

Question Class: "???"

Answer: I have no clue what you are talking about.

[OrdinaryClay]

Again, thanks for your concern. Don't worry, I'm willing to provide citations when needed.

My reason for asking is that quotations or citations from books that are written to keep people ignorant, or Holy Scriptures such as the Qu'ran or the Bible, have no ability to influence someone that doesn't already believe the myths they represent.

 

Have you buried your head in apologetic literature? Have you seriously studied biology?

 

"Beware the man of one book."

I find it hard to believe that you never quote scripture when you think it will suite your needs. We all know there is a proper tool for each job. There are some questions best answered from the Bible, while there are some questions best answered from a peer reviewed paper. Some answers require many sources to make a point that may have a composite answer.

 

Do you bury your head in atheist propaganda? Are you a Jesus mythicist? What is your resume? What books have you read? Do you beg the question of the supernatural? Are you of the delusion that the only form of evidence is empirical evidence?

 

"Beware the man who beleves he is aware of what he does not know."

[Ouroboros]

The questions or the answers? Faulty and incomplete that is.

Touche.

 

I meant the answers to the questions.

[OrdinaryClay]

I'd like to hear his apologia on the Tower Of Babel!

I don't have one. Did you lose your faith because you did not have one?

 

Oh and why John the baptist couldn't free himself by his faith,

Why was Paul martyred?

 

...nor could Jesus raise him from the dead.

I don't understand the question. Was He supposed to?

 

 

I'd love to answer any of yours. What would you like to know?

I just started a new thread.

[OrdinaryClay]

The questions or the answers? Faulty and incomplete that is.

Touche.

 

I meant the answers to the questions.

I understand there are some who don't. I find many objections given by atheists to be faulty and incomplete, myself.

[florduh]

Deja vu! Glory!

[Shyone]

Again, thanks for your concern. Don't worry, I'm willing to provide citations when needed.

My reason for asking is that quotations or citations from books that are written to keep people ignorant, or Holy Scriptures such as the Qu'ran or the Bible, have no ability to influence someone that doesn't already believe the myths they represent.

 

Have you buried your head in apologetic literature? Have you seriously studied biology?

 

"Beware the man of one book."

I find it hard to believe that you never quote scripture when you think it will suite your needs. We all know there is a proper tool for each job. There are some questions best answered from the Bible, while there are some questions best answered from a peer reviewed paper. Some answers require many sources to make a point that may have a composite answer.

 

Do you bury your head in atheist propaganda? Are you a Jesus mythicist? What is your resume? What books have you read? Do you beg the question of the supernatural? Are you of the delusion that the only form of evidence is empirical evidence?

 

"Beware the man who beleves he is aware of what he does not know."

I will answer your questions.

 

I quote scripture when discussing scripture, not to prove a point unrelated to scripture.

 

I have read some apologetics, and in fact it was one book in particular that started me down the road to atheism. Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth." I also read "Chariots of the Gods", but you're probably not interested in that.

 

I've read a lot of science. In college my major was chemistry with a minor in physics, but my doctorate is in medicine. I've read St. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, Darwin and Newton. The book I just finished reading is "A Brief History of Time" and the accompanying "The Universe in a Nutshell." I have read a fair number of "atheist books" as well.

 

As a naturalist, I take the position that for something to be considered a miracle, it would take something capable of verifying its miraculous nature. "Extraordinary evidence" if you will. Even if you could play catch with God, it would mean a new law of nature - God plays catch. God would be part of the universe, and no longer supernatural. I generally follow Thomas Paine's yardstick: "Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course. But we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time. It is therefore at least millions to one that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie."

 

Empirical evidence does not include testimony, but I rate the reliability of testimony as proportional to the likelihood that what the witness says is at least physically possible.

 

For those who believe impossible tales, the adjectives gullible and credulous are fitting.

[Brakeman]

I'd like to hear his apologia on the Tower Of Babel!

I don't have one. Did you lose your faith because you did not have one?

I guess I lost my faith when I observed the untruthfulness of believers to be rampant, then began to rationally examine the contradictions. The Babel story is totally stupid compared to our current knowledge, and I guess it would be fair to say it was one of the many issues that finally did it for me. I really hate being lied to.

Oh and why John the baptist couldn't free himself by his faith,

Why was Paul martyred?

Martyrdom makes no sense, John could have done more to preach his cause as an alive man.

...nor could Jesus raise him from the dead.

I don't understand the question. Was He supposed to?

Jesus was very sad, as the bible says, why would he be sad? He either knew that it was for the better, and as god he saw him in heaven even then, or he could have raised him from the dead, and thus alleviated his sorrow. That he wept makes no sense, unless it is a man's story from a man's point of view.

 

I'd love to answer any of yours. What would you like to know?

I just started a new thread.

[chefranden]

 

Pardon the interruption... I have never had and answer to my answer for this Vix....Vigil was saying the other day that data suggests that if a child is exposed to a belief system like Christianity, that almost 100% of the time they will be Christians when they grow up. So if they were raised by some evil belief system, they won't be evil when they grow up?

 

I would like to know your thoughts.

 

I thought I answered it. From the believer's point of view there are no evil belief systems. From the disbeliever's point of view there are only evil belief systems. I can guarantee that few if any Amalekites believed that their belief system was evil and I would venture to guess that they thought the Jew's belief system was evil. And after the Jews got started, they had good evidence that the Jew's belief system was exceedingly evil, for what is more evil than genocide? If anybody should have been rubbed out there it was the Jews for agreeing to do such a horrible thing.

 

By the by, if you read the passage carefully the Amalekites were not rubbed out for being evil, but for being the decedents about 10 generations removed from the Amalekites who resisted some illegal immigrants known as Israelites.

 

In any case it is no longer considered good form to rub out children and babies because of the beliefs of their parents. And what about the cows? Do the cows of evil believers become evil genocide committing devils with sharp teeth?

[chefranden]

Well, I do believe in the supernatural and that God is a real being that communicates to His creation.

This, of course, raises another thousand questions...

 

You forgot one: If God is omnipresent how does one avoid pissing on him?

 

[Brakeman]

Sigh ... looks like his answers are gonna be slow and hard fought.. He's hot on his thread though..

[Vixentrox]

Yeah, if god is Omni-present, when you take a crap, you shit on god because he's in your toilet. When you menstruate, he's living in your maxi-pads and tampons. When you have intercourse, he's mixed in there with your cum.

[OrdinaryClay]

I have read some apologetics, and in fact it was one book in particular that started me down the road to atheism. Hal Lindsey's "The Late Great Planet Earth." I also read "Chariots of the Gods", but you're probably not interested in that.

You don't consider The Late Great Planet Earth apologetics do you?

[OrdinaryClay]

I'd like to hear his apologia on the Tower Of Babel!

I don't have one. Did you lose your faith because you did not have one?

I guess I lost my faith when I observed the untruthfulness of believers to be rampant, then began to rationally examine the contradictions. The Babel story is totally stupid compared to our current knowledge, and I guess it would be fair to say it was one of the many issues that finally did it for me. I really hate being lied to.

Sorry to hear of your disappointment. Many have suffered and not lost their faith. What is your take on Job?

 

Oh and why John the baptist couldn't free himself by his faith,

Why was Paul martyred?

Martyrdom makes no sense, John could have done more to preach his cause as an alive man.

I don't follow your reasoning. Everyone will die one day or another. Are you saying the only way to preach the Gospel is to never die? This does not make sense to me.

 

 

...nor could Jesus raise him from the dead.

I don't understand the question. Was He supposed to?

Jesus was very sad, as the bible says, why would he be sad? He either knew that it was for the better, and as god he saw him in heaven even then, or he could have raised him from the dead, and thus alleviated his sorrow. That he wept makes no sense, unless it is a man's story from a man's point of view.

I honestly do not understand. Emotion (in this case sadness) can be expressed despite knowing the end of the story. We all know this full well. I can be deeply saddened by by my son's leaving and yet know where he is going.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Nice to meet ya OC

 

Vix is just being Vix

 

I am on the fence about the whole Christianity is true or not

 

Got to many doubts to be a real christian but not enough info to prove it wrong.

[OrdinaryClay]

Nice to meet ya OC

Hi.

 

Vix is just being Vix

No doubt.

 

I am on the fence about the whole Christianity is true or not

 

Got to many doubts to be a real christian but not enough info to prove it wrong.

I understand. I would like to point out that there are many with doubts who ended up finding the evidence plausibly adequate for belief. I would suggest seeking answers from those who had/have doubts and have concluded the opposite of many here. To include both sides seems only reasonable.

 

May I suggest this quick video ...

[Ouroboros]

Oh shit. Another Craig fan. I had that feeling. *facepalm*

 

William Lane Craig does not believe as much in logic and reason as he might suggest at times:

…it is the self-authenticating witness of the Holy Spirit that gives us the fundamental knowledge of Christianity’s truth. Therefore, the only role left for argument and evidence to play is a subsidiary role… The magisterial use of reason occurs when reason stands over and above the gospel… and judges it on the basis of argument and evidence. The ministerial use of reason occurs when reason submits to and serves the gospel. In light of the Spirit’s witness, only the ministerial use of reason is legitimate. Philosophy is rightly the handmaid of theology. Reason is a tool to help us better understand and defend our faith…

My paraphrasing would be: I believe because I feel like it, and logic and reason should only be used to the level where it is useful to convince others to convert to my religion.

[Vixentrox]

Nice to meet ya OC

 

Vix is just being Vix

 

I am on the fence about the whole Christianity is true or not

 

Got to many doubts to be a real christian but not enough info to prove it wrong.

That I am. I don't feel the need to coddle people that worship a being that makes Stalin look like a nice guy and wonderful humanitarian.

[Brakeman]

I'd like to hear his apologia on the Tower Of Babel!

I don't have one. Did you lose your faith because you did not have one?

I guess I lost my faith when I observed the untruthfulness of believers to be rampant, then began to rationally examine the contradictions. The Babel story is totally stupid compared to our current knowledge, and I guess it would be fair to say it was one of the many issues that finally did it for me. I really hate being lied to.

Sorry to hear of your disappointment. Many have suffered and not lost their faith. What is your take on Job?

 

Oh and why John the baptist couldn't free himself by his faith,

Why was Paul martyred?

Martyrdom makes no sense, John could have done more to preach his cause as an alive man.

I don't follow your reasoning. Everyone will die one day or another. Are you saying the only way to preach the Gospel is to never die? This does not make sense to me.

 

 

...nor could Jesus raise him from the dead.

I don't understand the question. Was He supposed to?

Jesus was very sad, as the bible says, why would he be sad? He either knew that it was for the better, and as god he saw him in heaven even then, or he could have raised him from the dead, and thus alleviated his sorrow. That he wept makes no sense, unless it is a man's story from a man's point of view.

I honestly do not understand. Emotion (in this case sadness) can be expressed despite knowing the end of the story. We all know this full well. I can be deeply saddened by by my son's leaving and yet know where he is going.

 

I didn't say I was disappointed, nor did I say I suffered any, what gave you that crazy idea?? Yep, the story of Job is really twisted. It's a good example of god carrying his faithful through the hard times -NOT. It's a story of god and his buddy satan dragging him behind their truck for a good laugh. We can get to that topic in a bit. Why did you blow off my first question about the Tower of Babel? When you read my question did it not convey to you that I wanted to discuss that topic? When I asked what your apologia is about the tower of Babel, that meant that I was interested in your explanation how the story could have been factual or allegorical, or conversely literal.

 

Your response was entirely flippant. Why?

 

As for John the Baptist, he was a preacher that was executed after a prolonged stay in prison. Presumably, If he had been a free man he could have met and witnessed to thousands of additional people, he could have Healed and prophesied all the live long day. Jesus had said that if a man had faith he could do powerful things. Paul, understood that he himself was not the messiah and his death did not wash away anyone's sins. So it would have made sense that he did not wish to die and give up his ministry, but he didn't have the faith to cause a great earthquake and cause his cell walls to crumble and free himself. He couldn't cause a plague on King Herod like Moses did. He couldn't trumpet down the cell walls like the walls of Jericho. No, the last we hear of John is when his head is on a platter.

 

Then Jesus is sad about John dying. Presumably Jesus loved John like a son. So for example if you had a son that died, you would be quite sad, sure. But say that the Son wasn't gone from you in any way, he just went to visit your parents at their place, you can go there back and forth as much as you want any time you want and you can take him back and forth with you any time you want. Because Jesus was god, and he could raise the dead or ascend into heaven at will with anybody in tow that he wishes, then what would cause sadness? If you took your sun to visit your father and you're still with him no matter where he goes, why would you be crying. It does not follow. You would only be crying if there were any true separation, which there would not be if you were the omnipresent god.

[Brakeman]

hmm.. no response clay?