gbbigmac Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I like to approach my non Christianity from a logical/scientific angle. So the idea of near death experiences intrigue me. Most NDE's as they call them are positive experiences. Even the vast majority of atheist NDE's are postive(which if are real shoots down the theory that only Christians go to Heaven) However there are some negative NDE's where the subjects think they have gone to hell. In fact there is one fundie doctor named Maurice Rawlings who wrote a book claiming that a number of his patients died momentarely on his operating table who claimed they went to hell. This sort of scares the s**t out of me, because it flies in the face of my rationality. I know they could be just making it up. Especially because they are fundies. Are any of you folks out there familiar with his work and would be kind enough to reassure me that it's crap? Or have have any other scientific data to put my mind at rest? I am a recent deconvert so I am still pretty fragile, especially when it comes to thoughts of hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I like to approach my non Christianity from a logical/scientific angle. So the idea of near death experiences intrigue me. Most NDE's as they call them are positive experiences. Even the vast majority of atheist NDE's are postive(which if are real shoots down the theory that only Christians go to Heaven) However there are some negative NDE's where the subjects think they have gone to hell. In fact there is one fundie doctor named Maurice Rawlings who wrote a book claiming that a number of his patients died momentarely on his operating table who claimed they went to hell. This sort of scares the s**t out of me, because it flies in the face of my rationality. I know they could be just making it up. Especially because they are fundies. Are any of you folks out there familiar with his work and would be kind enough to reassure me that it's crap? Or have have any other scientific data to put my mind at rest? I am a recent deconvert so I am still pretty fragile, especially when it comes to thoughts of hell. If you fuck with the brain, you get things that are not real. LSD, narcotics, other hallucinogens, trauma, hypotension, seizures, direct stimulation and tumors all cause the brain to "malfunction." We tend to try and "fill in the blanks" when things like that happen, much like an optical illusion, and our experiences, memories and expectations color the abnormal functioning. IOW, garbage in, garbage out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 The drug Ketamine (used legitimately as an adjunct in general anesthesia, and illegitimately as an hallucinogen) can produce the same hallucinatory and sensory symptoms reported by people who have experienced an NDE. So, cultures that use hallucinogens in worship really are finding gawd, eh? An NDE is no more evidence for life after death than is a good high. NDE "gawd experiences" are nothing but a high induced by drugs or brain hypoxia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I've had a couple of NLE's (Near Life Experiences) and they really sucked. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 I've had a couple of NLE's (Near Life Experiences) and they really sucked. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvless Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Snakefoot- You are absolutely right. I knew someone who took to much Ketamine at a club and thought he was dying. He felt like he was slipping into an abyss and when his brother came to get him, he thought his brother was an angel of the lord that came to save him. If his brother and friends never told him the truth of what happened at the club, then he might have really believed his hallucination and thus had a "god experience". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Near Death Experiences May Have Biological Explanation, Say Scientists Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Near Death Experiences May Have Biological Explanation, Say Scientists Very interesting findings, but dreams rarely if ever radically change people's lives for the better as NDEs do. Generally speaking, most people who experience an NDE lose their fear of death and gain a very positive and compassionate outlook on life. None of that proves a supernatural aspect of course, but it does, IMHO, indicate that NDEs may well be more than just dreams. Another point -- the ketamine connection is meaningless IMHO because people who have an NDE are generally not on that or any other dissociative drug! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Near Death Experiences May Have Biological Explanation, Say Scientists Very interesting findings, but dreams rarely if ever radically change people's lives for the better as NDEs do. Generally speaking, most people who experience an NDE lose their fear of death and gain a very positive and compassionate outlook on life. None of that proves a supernatural aspect of course, but it does, IMHO, indicate that NDEs may well be more than just dreams. Another point -- the ketamine connection is meaningless IMHO because people who have an NDE are generally not on that or any other dissociative drug! Not really. If you "die" on an operating table, odds are you have received ketamine as part of the anesthesia cocktail. Barring that, the effects of ketamine are identical to an NDE, so what's the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I've had a couple of NLE's (Near Life Experiences) and they really sucked. mwc I had an NTE (Near Trek Experience) not long ago that fucking ROCKED!! There was this bright pillar of light and then this glowing pointy-eared figure emanating deep feelings of logic and rationality suddenly appeared. He scanned me with this rectangular box, and I thought I would get beamed up to Starfleet right then and there! Praise the Almighty Transporter! The whole experience was fascinating as hell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Near Death Experiences May Have Biological Explanation, Say Scientists Very interesting findings, but dreams rarely if ever radically change people's lives for the better as NDEs do. Generally speaking, most people who experience an NDE lose their fear of death and gain a very positive and compassionate outlook on life. None of that proves a supernatural aspect of course, but it does, IMHO, indicate that NDEs may well be more than just dreams. Another point -- the ketamine connection is meaningless IMHO because people who have an NDE are generally not on that or any other dissociative drug! Not really. If you "die" on an operating table, odds are you have received ketamine as part of the anesthesia cocktail. Barring that, the effects of ketamine are identical to an NDE, so what's the difference? What he said. As others have noted, many things seem to cause distortion of brain function. Experiences in the operating room in particular are related to drugs - whether they work as intended or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I've had a couple of NLE's (Near Life Experiences) and they really sucked. mwc I had an NTE (Near Trek Experience) not long ago that fucking ROCKED!! There was this bright pillar of light and then this glowing pointy-eared figure emanating deep feelings of logic and rationality suddenly appeared. He scanned me with this rectangular box, and I thought I would get beamed up to Starfleet right then and there! Praise the Almighty Transporter! The whole experience was fascinating as hell! As always, Bro. Jeff, you are a breath of fresh air. Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Are any of you folks out there familiar with his work and would be kind enough to reassure me that it's crap? Or have have any other scientific data to put my mind at rest? I am a recent deconvert so I am still pretty fragile, especially when it comes to thoughts of hell. The Skeptic's dictionary has a nice article on NDE, noting among other things that for some funny *cough cough* reason no christian ever met muhammad in a NDE, no muslim ever encountered krishna et cetera. Tells me something I guess. If memory serves that page also states that "hell NDEs" aren't that rare anyway. All in all, I don't see much reason to assume it's more than a hallucination due to cerebral anoxia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Snakefoot- You are absolutely right. I knew someone who took to much Ketamine at a club and thought he was dying. During my time as a St. John's ambulance volunteer, Ketamine (Ketanest as we called the brand over here) was mustered out of EMS because of its serious side-effects... if memory serves. So yeah it's a mean stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Snakefoot- You are absolutely right. I knew someone who took to much Ketamine at a club and thought he was dying. During my time as a St. John's ambulance volunteer, Ketamine (Ketanest as we called the brand over here) was mustered out of EMS because of its serious side-effects... if memory serves. So yeah it's a mean stuff EMT? Para? I am an EMT volunteer with local fire/rescue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbbigmac Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 It's funny how fear often dominates because in my research I found that hindus and buddhists who had nde's saw their respective gods and not Jesus. This proves that it's a culturaly bound phenomena. But because I am from a Christian background, my fear response tells me that the christian nde's are real. Fear is such a terrible way to get things done in this world. It brings the worst out in humanity. Especially in Religion. Unfortuantly I was born into the only belief system out there that has the doctrine of eternal damnation.(other than Islam which got it from christianity) I am not a believer anymore, but I just cant get that "what if im wrong" thinking out of my head. Christianity really is evil. I dont know why it has gotten away with what it has for so long. I wish I was born a hindu... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Near Death Experiences May Have Biological Explanation, Say Scientists Very interesting findings, but dreams rarely if ever radically change people's lives for the better as NDEs do. Generally speaking, most people who experience an NDE lose their fear of death and gain a very positive and compassionate outlook on life. None of that proves a supernatural aspect of course, but it does, IMHO, indicate that NDEs may well be more than just dreams. Another point -- the ketamine connection is meaningless IMHO because people who have an NDE are generally not on that or any other dissociative drug! Not really. If you "die" on an operating table, odds are you have received ketamine as part of the anesthesia cocktail. Barring that, the effects of ketamine are identical to an NDE, so what's the difference? What he said. As others have noted, many things seem to cause distortion of brain function. Experiences in the operating room in particular are related to drugs - whether they work as intended or not. The difference is that drugs are not always involved when NDEs occur, and there is also the fact that not all NDEs occur in the operating room. My opinion on the issue remains unchanged. But there's also the fact that unlike many folks around here I am not a committed materialist, so I am open to the possibility that NDEs might be more than just dreams or the result of oxygen deprivation. I'm not saying that they are, I'm just saying that I am open to that possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I've had a couple of NLE's (Near Life Experiences) and they really sucked. mwc I had an NTE (Near Trek Experience) not long ago that fucking ROCKED!! There was this bright pillar of light and then this glowing pointy-eared figure emanating deep feelings of logic and rationality suddenly appeared. He scanned me with this rectangular box, and I thought I would get beamed up to Starfleet right then and there! Praise the Almighty Transporter! The whole experience was fascinating as hell! As always, Bro. Jeff, you are a breath of fresh air. Glory! Hall-lay-LOOH-Yah, Brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 It's funny how fear often dominates because in my research I found that hindus and buddhists who had nde's saw their respective gods and not Jesus. This proves that it's a culturaly bound phenomena. But because I am from a Christian background, my fear response tells me that the christian nde's are real. Fear is such a terrible way to get things done in this world. It brings the worst out in humanity. Especially in Religion. Unfortuantly I was born into the only belief system out there that has the doctrine of eternal damnation.(other than Islam which got it from christianity) I am not a believer anymore, but I just cant get that "what if im wrong" thinking out of my head. Christianity really is evil. I dont know why it has gotten away with what it has for so long. I wish I was born a hindu... Religious fear is a terrible thing, and I feel for you, but the way out of fear is knowledge. Once you learn enough about the Bible and its origins (and its many problems) and about the Christian religion and its history to realize that Christianity is not and indeed cannot possibly be true and you get comfortable with that knowledge, you tend to lose the fear of hell. Empty threats have no power. As far as the issue of NDEs being culturally bound, I don't see that as necessarily being a strike against them being real events in the sense that they indicate something more than dreams or hallucinations. IF a God exists, it's certainly possible and indeed quite likely that he/she/it would greet religious believers, at least initially, in a form that they would expect and be comfortable with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 EMT? Para? I am an EMT volunteer with local fire/rescue. It's a bit hard for me to translate the positions within EMS as they don't fit 100 %. I was what the German St. John's calls "Sanitätshelfer", pretty much a normal person with advanced first aid training (I did do some ambulance shifts as trainee though... was mostly fun assisting the regular crew). Above that you have the "Rettungssanitäter" and finally "Rettungsassistent", the latter being pretty similar to your paramedics as far as I know. I was almost into a St.-John's-sponsored training for the former when I had to move home to get closer to work Sadly, nowadays I don't have enough free time to be sufficiently active within any EMS organization so I've quit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 EMT? Para? I am an EMT volunteer with local fire/rescue. It's a bit hard for me to translate the positions within EMS as they don't fit 100 %. I was what the German St. John's calls "Sanitätshelfer", pretty much a normal person with advanced first aid training (I did do some ambulance shifts as trainee though... was mostly fun assisting the regular crew). Above that you have the "Rettungssanitäter" and finally "Rettungsassistent", the latter being pretty similar to your paramedics as far as I know. I was almost into a St.-John's-sponsored training for the former when I had to move home to get closer to work Sadly, nowadays I don't have enough free time to be sufficiently active within any EMS organization so I've quit Bummer. Sorry you had to quit. A great sense of "contributing" and "giving back" comes with volunteer EMS service. And, I must admit, at times great fun, too. Of course, there is a lot of stuff you'd rather not have to see or do, but it sure is an eye-opener on "the human condition." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 A great sense of "contributing" and "giving back" comes with volunteer EMS service. And, I must admit, at times great fun, too. Of course, there is a lot of stuff you'd rather not have to see or do, but it sure is an eye-opener on "the human condition." Yup it can be very helpful to build character and such Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom26 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 I've never been very religious most of my life, but the idea of hell has really scared me recently. The reason being is I started thinking a lot about death and what it is like after my grandmother died a few months. I did research and the odds of such a place being real are extremely unlikely based on the research I did about how religion was formed. That eases my mind a lot, but the what if thoughts come to my mind, especially when considering NDEs. What really scares me though about hell is the stories of near death experiences like the OP in this thread said. The ones that particularly scare me are about Howard Storm and Ronald Reagan (not the president, but a totally different person with the same name). The reason why these 2 in particular scare me the most is that both of these people didn;t believe or never even heard of hell or Jesus and yet they had a hell NDE where Reagan saw people burning, but not burning up and saw a bank robber he knew who died and was burning. I mean Reagan didn;t even know who Jesus was, so he probably never heard of hell. And if NDEs are supposed to be dreams, how often do people have a dream of something they never heard or thought of or heard of? Same with Howard Storm in a way because he was atheist, so he shouldn;t have thought or heard of hell either, but yet had an NDE like it. What is your response to this? Are these stories just rubbish about 2 people who had nightmarish NDEs and were told by Christians that they went to hell and these two people jumped to conclusions and wrote a story based on their experiences, but with some lies as well to try and make money? I mean, I need some more facts to put my mind at ease that these NDEs have no proof what so ever that hell is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 I mean Reagan didn't even know who Jesus was, so he probably never heard of hell. I mean, I need some more facts to put my mind at ease that these NDEs have no proof what so ever that hell is real. I don't know much about it, but I think the idea of Christian's not experiencing muhammed and the like is good reason to believe that, NDE's are subject. Like you said about Reagan, probably didn't ever know of a hell I seriously doubt that Research more I don't know what else to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 I did a little research on this Ronald Reagan, and it appears that he was in Knoxville, Tennessee when this happened. That should be your first clue. Sure, his life was shit: He was young and messed up - drugs and such. He nearly died, had some terrible nightmares, and decided to turn his life around. Like a smoker with lung cancer who swears off cigarrettes, he decided that all of those church going people he lived among might have been right, and he decided to swear off drugs and do what "decent" people do. Go to church. We can't really know much about their early lives (Reagan and his wife), but to imagine that they were totally unaware of what churches were all about is ridiculous. As another pointed out, the fact that he found "Jesus" instead of Buddha should be a clue to where he lived more than what he experienced. There are 903 churches in Knoxville, TN. Total population about 174,000. That means that there is one church for every 192 people. Would it be possible to not have had any idea of what Christmas was in Knoxville? The expression "I didn't even know who Jesus was" can be meant more than one way. When one becomes God-soaked, it means that they hadn't felt his "power and glory." That is not the same as, "I had never heard of hell!" What his total experience meant, from what I see, is "My Momma was Right!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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