OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 If you still believe in the supernatural (deism is a belief in the supernatural) what makes you think your brand of supernaturalism is correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 If you still believe in the supernatural (deism is a belief in the supernatural) what makes you think your brand of supernaturalism is correct? My Holy Book same as you. All the reasons your god is real apply to all gods in one way or another. On the other hand all the reasons that the other gods are not real apply to your god as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 If you still believe in the supernatural (deism is a belief in the supernatural) what makes you think your brand of supernaturalism is correct? My Holy Book same as you. All the reasons your god is real apply to all gods in one way or another. On the other hand all the reasons that the other gods are not real apply to your god as well. " My Holy Book same as you. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 If you still believe in the supernatural (deism is a belief in the supernatural) what makes you think your brand of supernaturalism is correct? My Holy Book same as you. All the reasons your god is real apply to all gods in one way or another. On the other hand all the reasons that the other gods are not real apply to your god as well. So are you claiming to be as right as me or as wrong as me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvless Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Well I know your beliefs are wrong so anything I believe must be closer to the truth than yours. Plus, I remain open minded and admit I don't have all the answers on life, death etc. unlike you and your faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 Well I know your beliefs are wrong so anything I believe must be closer to the truth than yours. Plus, I remain open minded and admit I don't have all the answers on life, death etc. unlike you and your faith. No offense, but my being wrong would not automatically mean you were right unless your belief was simply my being wrong, which I don't think is what you mean by your belief. So are you saying you believe in the supernatural? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 Why does god have to be supernatural? Is that just a convenient place for him to hide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Does not being a materialist automatically mean you believe in the supernatural? I don't know that we completely understand exactly what matter is, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 If you still believe in the supernatural (deism is a belief in the supernatural) what makes you think your brand of supernaturalism is correct? Maybe because I have had multiple interactions with the supernatural whereas God was always silent, as usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 The subtitle of this thread says this question does not apply to materialists. I think the knowledge base of natural philosophy is rather firm and immune to much skepticism (though not all skepticism). But to my mind this does not imply that I must therefore be a materialist. I think there are things to be studied in nature besides matter. I know biologists who study organisms from a relational perspective and for them organization is paramount and nature is a complex web of entailments. Having said that, here's a double post of my thoughts on the supernatural... Say we have a natural domain (call it N) and we have a supernatural domain (call it S) then there are either relations between them which alter N, or there are not. If N is altered by S and S is only known through N then we have no basis for distinguishing the action of the supernatural from causality. And if N is not altered by S then S becomes irelevant by virtue of being outside of inquiry. Something like that. I hate double posting. But I hate for people to miss by brilliance too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 The subtitle of this thread says this question does not apply to materialists. I think the knowledge base of natural philosophy is rather firm and immune to much skepticism (though not all skepticism). But to my mind this does not imply that I must therefore be a materialist. I think there are things to be studied in nature besides matter. I know biologists who study organisms from a relational perspective and for them organization is paramount and nature is a complex web of entailments. Having said that, here's a double post of my thoughts on the supernatural... Say we have a natural domain (call it N) and we have a supernatural domain (call it S) then there are either relations between them which alter N, or there are not. If N is altered by S and S is only known through N then we have no basis for distinguishing the action of the supernatural from causality. And if N is not altered by S then S becomes irelevant by virtue of being outside of inquiry. Something like that. I hate double posting. But I hate for people to miss by brilliance too. I have now been exposed to twice the brilliance that I'm accustomed to from you Legion. What? Are you trying to blind me or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 Does not being a materialist automatically mean you believe in the supernatural? I don't know that we completely understand exactly what matter is, either. Fair question. I believe so(given my definition, which implies that you believe matter is all there is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 If you still believe in the supernatural (deism is a belief in the supernatural) what makes you think your brand of supernaturalism is correct? Maybe because I have had multiple interactions with the supernatural whereas God was always silent, as usual. Would you bow down and worship God if He were to demonstrate some supernatural event to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 The subtitle of this thread says this question does not apply to materialists. I think the knowledge base of natural philosophy is rather firm and immune to much skepticism (though not all skepticism). But to my mind this does not imply that I must therefore be a materialist. I think there are things to be studied in nature besides matter. I know biologists who study organisms from a relational perspective and for them organization is paramount and nature is a complex web of entailments. A study of the interaction of matter is still the study of matter. Engaging in Ethology(which is what I think you are referring to here) would not "violate" ones claim to being a materialist. Having said that, here's a double post of my thoughts on the supernatural... Say we have a natural domain (call it N) and we have a supernatural domain (call it S) then there are either relations between them which alter N, or there are not. If N is altered by S and S is only known through N then we have no basis for distinguishing the action of the supernatural from causality. And if N is not altered by S then S becomes irelevant by virtue of being outside of inquiry. I address your comment in here and in many follow on posts. Your contribution there would be welcome. Something like that. I hate double posting. But I hate for people to miss by brilliance too. It was appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedah Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Christianity: Based on loosely translated books full of incorrect science. Suffers from logical inconsistencies with the problem of evil. Claims Omnibenevolence is consistent with eternal torture, which is not only illogical, but downright insane. Deism: Not based on loosely translated books full of incorrect science. Does not suffer from logical inconsistencies with the problem of evil. Believers do no arrogantly claim that they are the only ones who deserve an afterlife just for the sake of being believers. Deism: 3 Christianity: 0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Does not being a materialist automatically mean you believe in the supernatural? I don't know that we completely understand exactly what matter is, either. Fair question. I believe so(given my definition, which implies that you believe matter is all there is). I don't define myself as a materialist. I think the supernatural may exist in the sense that there may be other universes were the laws of nature as we know do not apply, or apply differently. Physics has a lot of theories. The difficulty is that we do not have nature fully explored yet. How would we know something was supernatural if we saw it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 C'mon, Clay, give us a specific example of a supernatural event (not a vague generalization). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 A study of the interaction of matter is still the study of matter. Engaging in Ethology(which is what I think you are referring to here) would not "violate" ones claim to being a materialist. I suppose we would need an explicit method of seeing or measuring organization. That might be helpful. But I suspect that a we can examine organization entirely independently from matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Does not being a materialist automatically mean you believe in the supernatural? I don't know that we completely understand exactly what matter is, either. Fair question. I believe so(given my definition, which implies that you believe matter is all there is). Well, if that's what materialist means, then I'm not one. I believe there are forces and energy, which are not matter. I believe in the dualism of light, and that one of the forms of light is a wave, and not a particle. I believe there are different dimensions of spin of quarks. I believe superstrings might be real and/or braided space. So I guess I don't qualify as a materialist then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 Does not being a materialist automatically mean you believe in the supernatural? I don't know that we completely understand exactly what matter is, either. Fair question. I believe so(given my definition, which implies that you believe matter is all there is). Well, if that's what materialist means, then I'm not one. I believe there are forces and energy, which are not matter. I believe in the dualism of light, and that one of the forms of light is a wave, and not a particle. I believe there are different dimensions of spin of quarks. I believe superstrings might be real and/or braided space. So I guess I don't qualify as a materialist then. Force is manifested energy(F=ma), and energy is matter(e=mc^2). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Force is manifested energy(F=ma), and energy is matter(e=mc^2). And matter is energy. Energy is the basic form. Energy existed before matter. So I'm an energialist. You're right that matter can be translated into energy, but that's because matter is made up of energy. On the other hand, energy is not made up of matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I believe in space, and that isn't matter. Though there's usually matter in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I believe in space, and that isn't matter. Though there's usually matter in it. So you're a spatialist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakefoot Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Does not being a materialist automatically mean you believe in the supernatural? I don't know that we completely understand exactly what matter is, either. Fair question. I believe so(given my definition, which implies that you believe matter is all there is). Well, if that's what materialist means, then I'm not one. I believe there are forces and energy, which are not matter. I believe in the dualism of light, and that one of the forms of light is a wave, and not a particle. I believe there are different dimensions of spin of quarks. I believe superstrings might be real and/or braided space. So I guess I don't qualify as a materialist then. Force is manifested energy(F=ma), and energy is matter(e=mc^2). And provide explicit example of a supernatural event = chicken^3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 So energy and matter are the same? I don't have a scientific background. Ordinary Clay please get down to my level and tell me what you consider to be a supernatural event and why? I am saying we have not got a unified field theory in physics that covers all the observations of subatomic particles and so we don't really know what matter really is. We can say with some confidence, I believe, that whatever it happens to be, there is not anything other or completely different that we can observe. The supernatural MAY exist, but you can't prove it by using any story or Biblical text. What is your ground for accepting it? This is a difficult question. How do you prove a thing or an event is something supernatural (outside nature)? Does it purely depend on the definition of the terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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