dB-Paradox Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 I understand how some might view Jesus as the same vengeful god of the OT, but I see him as quite different. In may cases, he's more forgiving, willing to give another chance. He's more approachable and personable (maybe that's simply because he a person, I don't know). And often he talks about love for all nations. The OT god constantly show his disaproval for other nations. Pretty much never gives second chances, and is only approachable by the highest people (Moses, on behalf of the Isrealites, for example). Just my observation. I see no reason to hate Jesus as much as Yahweh. Yahweh is by far the more hateful god. But of course, it is only my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I understand how some might view Jesus as the same vengeful god of the OT, but I see him as quite different. In may cases, he's more forgiving, willing to give another chance. He's more approachable and personable (maybe that's simply because he a person, I don't know). And often he talks about love for all nations. The OT god constantly show his disaproval for other nations. Pretty much never gives second chances, and is only approachable by the highest people (Moses, on behalf of the Isrealites, for example). Just my observation. I see no reason to hate Jesus as much as Yahweh. Yahweh is by far the more hateful god. But of course, it is only my opinion. There are a number of quotes by Jesus that are distinctly Hebrew-centric. At one point, I believe he referred to Gentiles as swine indirectly. At another, he said he came to fulfill the Law (Torah). At yet another, he said not to go into the territory of the Gentiles. There was another still, but I can't recall specifically. I think that the passages calling on the disciples to preach to the world were later interpolations to support the growth of the church along Paulistic lines - and rejecting the Law. Maybe Jesus "changed his mind" and perhaps he was torn between following the Law and being a rebel, but in the end, there is sufficient evidence that he intended to preach only to God's chosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I understand how some might view Jesus as the same vengeful god of the OT, but I see him as quite different. In may cases, he's more forgiving, willing to give another chance. He's more approachable and personable (maybe that's simply because he a person, I don't know). And often he talks about love for all nations. The OT god constantly show his disaproval for other nations. Pretty much never gives second chances, and is only approachable by the highest people (Moses, on behalf of the Isrealites, for example). Just my observation. I see no reason to hate Jesus as much as Yahweh. Yahweh is by far the more hateful god. But of course, it is only my opinion. Does the concept of God shown in the new testament seem to be different from that shown in the old testament, if your being honest yes, personally I think that the concept of YWHW evolves in the OT from the Pentateuch to the later books. That said you say that Jesus is more forgiving and willing to give another chance than YWHW. Have you read Jonah? In this book YWHW sends Jonah out to tell the Nineveh that their all a bunch of evil heathens, and that he's going to destroy them, after this the Ninevites head the warning and repent of their evil ways, as a result, YWHW forgives them. This is an example of YWHW showing forgiveness, and being kind to another nation. It is quite possible to find other references to YWHW doing such, nice and forgiving things in other parts of the old testament. Similarly Jesus shows kindness and forgiveness to others throughout the gospels, as long as people believe into him, otherwise you will be cast into Gehenna, the outer darkness, or what have you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 Yeah, I understand. However, I just haven't found any NT reference to Jesus killing someone because they didn't believe. Of course there's threat of eternal death, but that's just Jesus dry humping. Here's the way I see it...OT God kills ya right there and then if you F*ck up. Sometimes he spares ya, but sometimes you don't even get to say sorry before your dead body is trampled on. NT God just threatens to throw you out for all eternity. Doesn't actually do it. Then, in Acts, we see some examples of instant death again with Ananias and Sapphira. WTF???? Do you see how this looks inconsistent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Yeah, I understand. However, I just haven't found any NT reference to Jesus killing someone because they didn't believe. Revelation. Of course there's threat of eternal death, but that's just Jesus dry humping. Here's the way I see it...OT God kills ya right there and then if you F*ck up. Sometimes he spares ya, but sometimes you don't even get to say sorry before your dead body is trampled on. NT God just threatens to throw you out for all eternity. Doesn't actually do it. Then, in Acts, we see some examples of instant death again with Ananias and Sapphira. WTF???? Do you see how this looks inconsistent? Not really, it makes more sense that christians who disobeyed would be more likely to be killed than non-believer's "Judgment starts with the house of God", even in the old testament a God, if you look at, at least a lot of God's judgments, they were against the Jews for fucking up. Second of all, in the gospels Jesus threatened people that if they didn't follow they would be killed, in acts a guy didn't follow and he was killed, what's inconsistent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 I understand how some might view Jesus as the same vengeful god of the OT, but I see him as quite different. In may cases, he's more forgiving, willing to give another chance. He's more approachable and personable (maybe that's simply because he a person, I don't know). And often he talks about love for all nations. The OT god constantly show his disaproval for other nations. Pretty much never gives second chances, and is only approachable by the highest people (Moses, on behalf of the Isrealites, for example). Just my observation. I see no reason to hate Jesus as much as Yahweh. Yahweh is by far the more hateful god. But of course, it is only my opinion. Well, I hate him, the symbol (not so sure he really exited) much more than I hate Yahweh. Yahweh was just a story to me, like Thor or something from the Iliad. Jesus, however, made me feel guilty for every damned little thing. He was a passive aggressive prick that has done much more harm to the world via his teachings than the silly stories in the OT ever have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 Revelations is not an example of Jesus killing anyone. Jesus' life is portrayed in the gospels only. I'm not saying it's an accurate account of history, but it's the only biblical account for which the life and personality of Jesus is represented while he was "here". Revelations is John's visions, which means nothing to me. So yes, it would make sense that God's chosen people are going to receive his judgement more so than any other nationality. But in the gospels, Jesus only heals and does 'helpful' miracles. The only bad things he does are kills a tree because it hasn't produced fruit, over turns a table and gets angry, and threatens some bad stuff. I don't remember him killing anyone on the spot. Yahweh does more than just threaten bad stuff. He commands the death of innocent nations just because they are not his chosen, as well as strikes his own chosen people down every so often. Maybe the reason Jesus appears to not do that stuff is because he was representing God for only 30 some odd years? Anyway, you may still not see my point. But I think I see yours, and I'm still not convinced. Maybe I'm just beating a dead horse here, so I'll leave it be. Obviously I see something you don't or you see something I don't. Reading your post, however, it appears you've missed something. Something I already said. Hey, all we have to do is ask a Jew if Jesus and God are the same, and they'll say no. They'll spot differences in a heart beat. Which is obviously one of the reasons they don't believe he is God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted March 2, 2010 Author Share Posted March 2, 2010 I understand how some might view Jesus as the same vengeful god of the OT, but I see him as quite different. In may cases, he's more forgiving, willing to give another chance. He's more approachable and personable (maybe that's simply because he a person, I don't know). And often he talks about love for all nations. The OT god constantly show his disaproval for other nations. Pretty much never gives second chances, and is only approachable by the highest people (Moses, on behalf of the Isrealites, for example). Just my observation. I see no reason to hate Jesus as much as Yahweh. Yahweh is by far the more hateful god. But of course, it is only my opinion. Well, I hate him, the symbol (not so sure he really exited) much more than I hate Yahweh. Yahweh was just a story to me, like Thor or something from the Iliad. Jesus, however, made me feel guilty for every damned little thing. He was a passive aggressive prick that has done much more harm to the world via his teachings than the silly stories in the OT ever have. Well, Jesus is just a story, too. I try not to get hung up on the human symbol. But you may have just helped me prove my point. "[Jesus] was a passive aggressive prick..." Yahweh was a myth who was not passive aggressive. He got angry, he did something about it. Jesus pent it up and threatened death. Well, threaten all you want Jesus, but your invisible OT counterpart did more than threaten! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 But who influenced the church and all its followers over the past 2000 years? Jesus or Yahweh? Yes they are both merely symbolic. I argue that the Jesus symbol has done the world far more damage. I also think you are brushing over some major shit in the gospels. But then if you don't find people like Jim Jones, Charles Manson, Joesph Smith, et al offensive then you probably won't find anything much wrong with the gospels either. I personally do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Yeah, I understand. However, I just haven't found any NT reference to Jesus killing someone because they didn't believe. Makes you wonder why the stories are the way they are. Like the Canaanite woman. She's persistent. Had she accepted his first answer and walked away no healing would have occurred. Likewise for many others. So I should assume that we're only reading about the success stories and not about those who actually accepted the initial answer of "no," the initial refusal to do what was asked. With that in mind I would think that if you "believed" the initial answer then you would have to think that many would have died as a result. Only the most persistent got the special treatment. "Believe" is relative. If you believe the first response then you have little "faith" and are denied but if you have a lot of "faith" and believe you will get what you want then you will ultimately receive it. This is in-line with the explanation later given for how prayer works. Truth be told many people must have died in these stories from not badgering this "jesus" for what they wanted. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 2, 2010 Share Posted March 2, 2010 Truth be told many people must have died in these stories from not badgering this "jesus" for what they wanted. mwc Wasn't there a story about Jesus getting really peaved and walking away from whole crowds of people clamoring for his attention and healing? What to make of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Wasn't there a story about Jesus getting really peaved and walking away from whole crowds of people clamoring for his attention and healing? What to make of that? Depends on the story. There's the story where he "hides" inside the little house but they drop the guy through the roof. So he heals the guy because they go above and beyond. What if they had not ruined the house and went away? Still crippled. There's the story where he is upset where they don't have any faith (in his own country) so he doesn't do any tricks and hits the road. No one wanted him enough I guess. So they all get to live with their ailments. Should have badgered him so he could have whined about it but did their bidding anyhow. Instead we read him whining about them not bothering him. There's plenty of little stories so I wouldn't be surprised if there's at least one I'm overlooking (especially if it's in G.John since that's the odd-ball in how things work). But does the exception make the rule? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Revelations is not an example of Jesus killing anyone. Jesus' life is portrayed in the gospels only. I'm not saying it's an accurate account of history, but it's the only biblical account for which the life and personality of Jesus is represented while he was "here". Revelations is John's visions, which means nothing to me. OK, but it's also John's vision which fleshes out events which are prophesied by Jesus in the gospels. So yes, it would make sense that God's chosen people are going to receive his judgement more so than any other nationality. But in the gospels, Jesus only heals and does 'helpful' miracles. The only bad things he does are kills a tree because it hasn't produced fruit, over turns a table and gets angry, and threatens some bad stuff. I don't remember him killing anyone on the spot. Yahweh does more than just threaten bad stuff. He commands the death of innocent nations just because they are not his chosen, as well as strikes his own chosen people down every so often. Maybe the reason Jesus appears to not do that stuff is because he was representing God for only 30 some odd years? Anyway, you may still not see my point. But I think I see yours, and I'm still not convinced. Maybe I'm just beating a dead horse here, so I'll leave it be. Obviously I see something you don't or you see something I don't. Reading your post, however, it appears you've missed something. Are you saying that because all of Jesus killing and suffering, which while being lamp shaded in the gospels, differs from the OT God, in that his suffering and death waits for acts, corinthians, and revelations to actually be carried out, if that's it then I don't really see a great enough difference to be impressed. If your coming at it from an angle that Jesus wasn't actually capable of doing any of the bad stuff he threatened, well fine, neither was YWHW, he ain't God either, and he didn't tell anyone to kill anyone, at any time in the past, regardless of whether anyone thinks he might have, because he don't exist. Something I already said. Hey, all we have to do is ask a Jew if Jesus and God are the same, and they'll say no. They'll spot differences in a heart beat. Which is obviously one of the reasons they don't believe he is God. And I guarantee you they wouldn't use anything remotely resembling the argument you gave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 And I guarantee you they wouldn't use anything remotely resembling the argument you gave. Well, alright then. I'll take you at your guarantee. I stand corrected. But I still see a difference in personality and character when it comes to Jesus and God. But I'll let it go now, otherwise I'm no better than a Christian trying to push my views on someone else! I only started this thread because I saw a difference. And I'm not the only one. I think it was on these forums that someone made the joke about God lightening up a bit since having sex with Mary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 And I guarantee you they wouldn't use anything remotely resembling the argument you gave. Well, alright then. I'll take you at your guarantee. I stand corrected. Are you being sarcastic? If so are you suggesting that the Jews would actually argue that Jesus can't be the Old Testament God, because he's just so much nicer? That said yes you are right Christianity obviously doesn't follow on from Judaism. The laws are different, the concept of God is different, and the prophecies which they use to tie Jesus in as being the OT messiah are laughable. Actually there were many sects of early Christianity which consider the OT creator God as being the evil Demiurge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dB-Paradox Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 No, I wasn't being sarcastic. Sorry for the misinterpretation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 No, I wasn't being sarcastic. Sorry for the misinterpretation. I'm also sorry if I was being offensive, my denomination leaned a lot towards the more cultic teachings of Jesus. For me he's a symbol of the being who wants to destroy my soul, and turn me into his meat puppet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phanta Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Actually there were many sects of early Christianity which consider the OT creator God as being the evil Demiurge Interesting. I can see this. I always thought the OT God was whacked (from my limited perspective...I wasn't a Bible reader). How many of these early sects were there? Which ones do you know of? Phanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Actually there were many sects of early Christianity which consider the OT creator God as being the evil Demiurge Interesting. I can see this. I always thought the OT God was whacked (from my limited perspective...I wasn't a Bible reader). How many of these early sects were there? Which ones do you know of? Phanta The Marcionites, and I believe the various Gnostic groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted March 5, 2010 Share Posted March 5, 2010 Truth be told many people must have died in these stories from not badgering this "jesus" for what they wanted. That will teach you not to be polite! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts