I'm Going To Get Sucked Back Into The Delusion

[ElrondHubbard]

I haven't been in your position, but I can imagine that the issue is fraught with complications, and I don't want to lightly offer offhand advice. Life is full of hard choices, and it sounds like this is one of the Big Ones. I think you're on the right track as long as you're making your decisions out of love for your kids.

 

In lieu of advice, I offer my experience: my mom stayed with my dad for 15 years because she thought that having a "whole" family would be best for my sister and I, though she had plenty of reasons to leave him by the time we were about the same age as your kids. I can't say for certain what would have happened if she had left him sooner, and I honestly don't know how divorce would have affected me at that age. But I do know that growing up with two parents who didn't love or respect one another was really bad for me. It wasn't big things - in general, our household was healthy, orderly, and secure. But their lack of cooperation manifested itself in little, everyday interactions that collectively messed up my perspectives on all of my relationships - family, romantic, and otherwise. As much as you try to make this work, I'm afraid that the rift between you and your wife will be apparent to your children whether any of you realize it or not. Just remember that kids see more than you realize, and they internalize their parents behavior.

 

I don't mean to advocate divorce, and I really do hope that you can work things out. I just don't know how you could create harmony in your household if you and your wife aren't on the same page. You know?

[dB-Paradox]

Yeah, I know. My wife does have her good days, when I mention to her that our marriage is strong, religion set aside. She agrees often enough that the main focus on our marriage has never been "God this" and "God that", but that Christianity was always a back burner thing. Of course, it's taken a new direction since I've formally announced leaving the flock, but as I said, there are some really good days where we can be totally and blissfully happy with each other. It's those days that give me hope, even if it turns out to be false.

[Franko47]

Well, we'll be here for you in the meantime, Paradox. There's no need to get into problems and arguments with a loved one that really aren't going to go anywheres. In time, your wife may begin to see a few things "wrong" or "erroneous" with Big Bible Christianity; but it's your store, pal.

[mwc]

Wow! You have more courage and guts than I do. Inside, I want to do that, but I'm too scared to lose my children. Like I said earlier, we're going for counseling. I want to mention some of these things (what everyone's been saying about how she's not giving anything, and I'm making all the sacrifices). Well, thanks for sharing, mwc. I think if I were to buckle up and just put my foot down, my wife would ultimately cave in, too. I'm just too big a sh*t to try!

Do the counseling. We did that. Don't do a xian counselor. I've been to two and they were just plain worthless. If you're going to make a stand do it there. Don't just say it's because they're xian. Go to one of these sites that show how to get a counselor and they'll usually say you'll need to find a counselor that's "right" for you and this may mean going to more than one. I've given them chances and they usually bring the religion into it somehow (this lady wanted my wife to quit her job and for me to be head of the household when I had an income that was pennies on the dollar of my wife...but the bible says it's best...so magic will overcome and pay the bills). So get a good counselor instead of a xian one.

 

Also, whether you don't do anything or you give in entirely she could pack it in and try to take your kids. Stop working from a place of fear. This is the mistake that was causing me to make bad decisions and it's not a good place to be. It took me a long time to recognize this. Hopefully you'll be able to do so much quicker (really recognize it and not just acknowledge it).

 

mwc

[★ Citsonga ★]

I'll still live an atheist life, but without the friend connections that apparently make my wife miserable.

 

It doesn't seem fair to me for you to have to give up your like-minded friends while she gets to keep hers. I'd say to agree that you'll give up your atheist friends whenever she gives up her christian friends.

[dB-Paradox]

She doesn't get that. She truly feels that my atheist friends are a bad influence on me. That somehow I've become more atheist because of them. The truth is (and I've told her this), is that I was already an atheist before I met many of these people. Do they keep me strong in atheism? Sure they do. Just the same as her Christian friends keep her strong in Christianity.

[Scorpion]

Paradox, after reading everything you have written, do you really want to pursue a relationship with that person? I know she's the mother of your children, but is it worth it? I mean, she wants you to give up basicly what you are without giving up nothing in return. Do you really want to go there? I'm worried, man.

 

One thing that has been running around my mind for quite some time: the title you chose for this thread. there's no way you can get sucked back in. You've seen the man behind the curtain. Whatever feelings you had, they will never go back to what they were, now you've discovered a new dimension to life, away from bi-dimensional religion. Others se a circle, you see a sphere...

 

And to wrap it up (and to give a little bit more power to you), an inspirational quote from none other than Sir Winston Churchill:

 

"Never give in - never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small, large or petty, never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy."

[nightflight]

Try to remember she is a victim of fear, a powerful fear that has been effectively used for thousands of years.

[mick]

Thanks everyone. I am really going to need to pull myself together on this. I have two kids, 4 and 1. If it weren't for them, I would kick the emotional shit out of my wife and say F#ck this, I'm doing what I want! I'm really only trying to make a stable home for my girls. Unfortunately, my wife has always had her thumb on me, even the 10 years before we had kids. But then, I was under biblical interpretation. NOW, I'm under the spell of my two beautiful children!

 

Will I be living a lie? I don't think so. I'll still live an atheist life, but without the friend connections that apparently make my wife miserable. I don't know har far I'll go (eg. "please come to church with me" or "please pray with me") but I suspect I'll keep a tight reign on my life. Losing a few friends to keep her "happy" is a small price to pay, IMO. I just hope it doesn't wear too much on me in the long run. Damn! Why do fundies have to be so damn stubborn?

 

***EDIT***

 

I just read my first post and realized how much in love I sounded with my wife as opposed to this post (which puts the love on my children). I really do love my wife, but can't handle her stubborn nature. Anyway, as buffettphan said, I am surely not number one in her life. But I guess it's my hopes that if I model "number one-ness" toward her, she'll see that and appreciate it. I'm pretty damn confused right now.

 

My kids were 9, 8, and 6 when I dumped the faith 5 years ago. My wife is more fundy than ever, but we are still married. I had brief wars where I thought I was going to get sucked back in in the early days. But eventually I stuck hard to my guns, insisted on total openness and no church for me whatsoever. For me it has seemed to work, but will it work forever?

[lunaticheathen]

I also don't think you'll get sucked back in, and also wonder how the relationship will work when she's demanding things she doesn't seem willing to do herself, for whatever reason. Of course I don't know her, and have never been married, and never had kids. So I admit my complete ignorance, and admire your devotion to your kids. They are certainly important.

I just don't think I could ever handle being friends with, much less married to, a christian fundy. My boyfriend calls himself christian, but I think he's far closer to deist than christian. We are able to talk about religion and spirituality, and let each other be as we are. He has no problems with my shrines and rituals (though he sometimes has issues with me smoking up the house with dragon's blood ). He hates fundies worse than I do though!

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck, and a resolution that makes you happy, and keeps the peace.

[dB-Paradox]

One thing to keep in mind through all this is we were both fundies when we married nearly 15 years ago. I began to lose my faith not more than 5 years ago. That's over 10 years of history together verses the few years (or months, really, if you consider I've been an atheist since the summer of 2008) of differences we have. I'm still hopeful she'll come around. I want to at least meet half way.

[Dagan]

I understand your situation, P, and I'm glad you said in the shoutbox you're OK.

 

Your counsellor was right to call loss of faith a death. That's been the only way I could explain it to my wife -- like someone I loved dearly died.

 

I am trying to be more open, but it's really hard, especially since every conversation turns into an argument and/or tears.

 

I still wonder how much to hold back. If she thinks I'm going to be burning in hell for eternity, what kind of basis is that for a family? It stresses me out.

[dB-Paradox]

How long have you been out?

[Phanta]

Your counsellor was right to call loss of faith a death. That's been the only way I could explain it to my wife -- like someone I loved dearly died.

 

We often attribute loss to big things like death or divorce, but loss comes in smaller pieces, too, all the time. The difference is how important they are to the individual, rather than how important they are universally. Faith sounds like a real important issue to the wife. What a loss for her.

 

Hang in there.

 

Phanta

[flicka]

I feel like this is not a healthy love relationship for either of you. Give it your best shot, but be ready to man up and end things if it gets ridiculous.

[dagnarus]

One thing to keep in mind through all this is we were both fundies when we married nearly 15 years ago. I began to lose my faith not more than 5 years ago. That's over 10 years of history together verses the few years (or months, really, if you consider I've been an atheist since the summer of 2008) of differences we have. I'm still hopeful she'll come around. I want to at least meet half way.

 

If you've given up your freedom of association for her, your not meeting her half way. Your caving to her. Sure, maybe sticking up for yourself could lead to divorce. Personally I think you should ask yourself whether or not caving to her demands will save you from it. Keep in mind that I have any practical knowledge of what I'm talking about, so be skeptical of my advice accordingly, but if she wants you to give up your friends, it's because she is hoping that you will magically return to the faith. If she is going to divorce you, if you keep your friends, then she's probably going to divorce you if you don't return to the faith. Further if you cave to her you will probably be sacrificing what made your marriage good in the secular sense, after all she will likely have less respect for you, and you will likely begin to feel resentful of her. It could be that you will end up getting divorced because you folded. Everything involves risk.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Just because she is your wife does not mean you have to eat shit to prove your love for her. Maybe she should prove her love for you and let you be yourself, instead of who she wants you to be. Family comes first I agree, but if you keep changing the definition of family to mean 'dysfunctional passive-aggressive relationship', then you might want to think hard on what you are protecting. Maybe you aren't the one failing the family here.

 

Sorry if that was harsh, but men who have a spine love their wives too.

 

If you love your wife, you know you will not leave her or let her go hungry, but you don't owe her your doglike obedience...that is a gift she must earn with her love, which she is not showing you. If she is threatening to leave, then it is her who is attacking the family, not you for changing.

 

--Edit

I realize that your main concern here is your children. It would be real bad for you too lose all contact with them, yes, but if you had enough custody that they would be able to spend days with you then you could be a secular haven for them, instead of raising them in a house where the love is dying. If you met someone new, they'd be able to see how a healthy marriage functions. I would recommend talking to a divorce lawyer, if only to get information so you can understand the reality of your situation, so you can decide more accurately if staying with your wife is really best for them.

[dB-Paradox]

Okay, so here's the skinny on what's new...

 

After I made this sacrifice for my wife, she started to feel bad (and rightly so). I've reconnected with some of my atheist friends (some were truly not friends to begin with, so I didn't reconnect with them anyway). A secular counselor put it best, and I really hope this sinks in for my wife. He asked what the difference was between my wife's church and mine (this apostate group I want to get back into). He asked if I try to limit my wife from going to church, which I don't, and then asked why I should be limited then. He also pointed out that there's nothing wrong with a marriage just because each person has their own interests and wants to pursue them. Many healthy marriages do this.

 

So, I am "allowed" to have contact with my atheist friends, but I'm not sure she would be willing to let me go to an apostate group without a fight. And in case any of you are wondering....yes, I consider my wife emotionally abusive (or manipulative at least). However, I still love her and want to make things work. Thanks for all the support, everyone. I know there have been some tough sounding comments going around, but I also know it is coming from a good place.

[Brakeman]

Well, My two cents says,

 

Be honest but clever, tell her that you don't hate god or anything, you just have questions and that she can help you get "back in the flock" if SHE will help you understand the answers for those questions. Then insist that you don't want to have anything pushed down your throat especially from strangers you don't know or trust.

 

When she becomes honest enough to look at the contradictions, even if she takes an opposing view, she will begin to understand the doubt better and release her anger towards you.

 

I use this method on my fundie wife. When she says something nutty I ask her to explain it to me sincerely. She then will often not be so harsh on me when she can't explain everything either.

 

Oh yes, Go Slow, and if she gets frustrated and angry, remind her that god hasn't given up on anybody and she shouldn't give up on you.

Good luck .. Keep us posted if you can!

[mwc]

[snip]

All sounds pretty good. So does this mean you're still heading to church? If so does this mean she's coming with you to your group?

 

mwc

[dB-Paradox]

Oh, I'm not going to church anymore. I would like if my wife could see what this apostate group is all about, but would never try to make her come.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Oh, I'm not going to church anymore.

 

Hallelujah!

 

I would like if my wife could see what this apostate group is all about, but would never try to make her come.

 

Good luck there. I'd agree with not forcing it, but if she's open to going, she may actually realize that they're not like she assumes they are.

 

I've thought about inviting my wife to a freethinkers group I've been going to, but I'm not sure if I will.

[dichotomy]

Only just read come into this now. I'm glad to see that your wife has eased up a little and you're *allowed* to have friends again.

 

From reading your posts I really think that your relationship with your wife sounds quite strong and things may work out for you both although it will take time. Even though she can be very manipulative and emotionally abusive which is clearly wrong and unfair, I do understand where she's coming from. She married you believing you had the same beliefs as her and always would. You lived like this for 10 years together and you've had two children together. Then *you* changed all that. She will be angry, hurt, confused, full of fear, apprehension, uncertain about how things are going to play out for the future, she believes you are going to hell, she wonders how your relationship will pan out for the rest of your lives, how your atheism will affect your children, your family life, how will you make decisions, will you ever be as close as you once were, and she will view this as *your* fault (or possibly Satans). I expect she feels out of control and is clutching at straws to turn things back to how they once were. She is having to adjust to it, she probably feels insecure and is trying to take control of her life through these *little* things because in reality she knows it is totally out of her control. It's not right what she's doing but it isn't surprising and it is understandable and it is, to a certain extent, to be expected really. It's not just your life that has changed, hers is never going to be as she once thought it would be and she has no control over that. It's a scary feeling. What I'm trying to say is, that whilst she isn't *giving* and is asking very much of you, actually I expect in her mind she has given up a lot because she's had to.

 

I don't know if I'm making sense and I'm certainly not excusing your wife or saying that you should do everything that she says not matter how unreasonable. And I expect you probably realise where your wife is coming from anyway, but I do think that your wife is likely to be just reacting emotionally and is not fully aware of what she is asking of you or how it makes you feel or how unreasonable she is being. In time, if you keep going to counselling and empathise with her as much as possible, but don't give in the her every beck and call, I think you could reach a point of mutual acceptance and balance and quite possibly have a happy marriage for years to come. But it will take time, most probably years and it will be hard work, but then many marriages are hard work, even when you both believe the same things....