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On Changing Minds


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Godliness is both the fruit of the Spirit and our complete submission to God.

Gal 5:22

(22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

 

Eph 1:4

(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:

 

1Jn 4:8

(8) He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

 

Psa 34:18

(18) Jehovah is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart, And saveth such as are of a contrite spirit.

 

Psa 51:17

(17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

 

yada yada yada etc. etc.

 

Why bother cherry-picking quotations from the Bible. It was written by profoundly ignorant and superstitious men and is not worth the paper it is written on. It can be cherry-picked to support any theology from that of Fred Phelps to Unitarians. The few good parts of it (e.g. the Golden Rule) are all derivative.

 

Why does the Bible carry any more authority than the Koran? Actually, the Koran should carry more authority than the Bible because it was dictated by an angel and the Bible was written mostly by mere men. What about the Book of Mormon? It was written by God on magic tablets.

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OC and End,

 

Excuse me if you've already answered this somewhere in this huge thread, but what version(s) of the bible do you consider to be God's inspired perfect word?

 

OC, you spent pages arguing physics here but you haven't explained how shepherds can follow a star to a small manger. You haven't explained the physics of the little stars falling to earth in revelations, and you haven't explained the firmament openings that cause it to rain, and you've failed to mention why god would have worried about mankind building a tower so high to reach heaven, using bronze age construction technology. If heaven has a reachable physical location, where is it?

 

OH and while you're at it, tell me if Uzzah in 2cd Samual, went to hell.

 

Oh and why does our old testament differ from the scriptures that jesus as a jewish rabbi would have read?

Wouldn't jesus have mentioned omissions and non canonical parts before the Western councils snipped out the bad parts and added more good parts?

 

Thanks.. :scratch:

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Personal God:

Odd Words for Underwear

 

Your briefs are showing...

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To this day I say the trombone is my wife (got to play her, it's the job) and the guitar is my mistress (want to play her, it's where the passion lies).

 

I can hear Carl Fontana, Frank Rosolino, and J.J. Johnson rolling in their graves, you adulterating string plucker! :HaHa:

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1. I did travel down the path of having no god in my life for nearly a year. It teared me to bits, to be honest. Its not like when I read these posts that I think its all rubbish...I do believe there are some really valid and good points in here. I always have an open mind in reading the posts and I do think deeply on the arguments thrown up in here.

 

 

 

2. So back to this post. While I do take in all that is said in here, I also have to listen to my own heart and what I know. I walked away once, and all i got in return for it was confusion, stress, hurt, pain and torment. However when I went back and repented to God I found intense peace and stability and yeah, freedom. So why would I possibly go back to what I had before? Yeah yeah, I know you guys think I like living in my fluffy safe world of delusion..

 

To me this is my life. I get such joy out of praying and worshipping God. I love God and I love his presence in my life. Im not going to back down from it or be ashamed of it. I do however read these posts very intently and give them lots of thought. I wonder if you guys do the same in reciprocation? Sure there are times I doubt and waver, but I dont give up. I choose to trust even in the dark when I cant see. My faith becomes even stronger in those times, because in reality all I am trusting in is purely God then, nothing else.

 

1. According to my own experience I find it amazing that you could go back. I experienced some of the same sort of stress you mention upon realizing the non-existence of God. But I never figured out how to undo that, and at one time I would have if I could have. Those stresses passed, thank god. :grin:

 

2. Feelings are compelling, but they are not proof of reality. If this were the case then all gods would be real. Nevertheless, people are much more about feeling then they are about reason. Back when I was coming up there was this saying, "If it feels good, do it."

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I have a question that occurred to me....was your faith during you initial belief period genuine like a child, or was it skeptical. I don't mean to be an ass here, just was thinking that being the part vs "playing one on TV" crossed my mind. I know there are people here that certainly weren't the latter....but if you were, wouldn't God know?

I was a child. I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

 

I don't see faith on the list...

I "understood" (had faith) as a child. I believed what I was told, I prayed and expected results. I believed that Jesus loved me; This I knew. There was no skepticism whatsoever.

 

It wasn't until I grew up that reason, reality and evidence accumulated that made belief impossible. And that's when I put away childish "things" like beliefs in the supernatural. Neither ghosts, nor demons, nor the tooth fairy nor Santa Claus survived my scrutiny and, although the process was gradual, it is now complete.

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I have a serious problem with the claim that God would have to be personal.

 

When we say that someone is a person, it includes that the person is limited in time and space. It also means that the being we call a person has limited mental faculties and has a body. I don't see how this idea of an omnipresent, omniscient, non-temporal, non-spatial creature is a person as well. It means that the definition of "person" must change to include "God-creatures." But does it? I'd say it's a fallacy of equivocation to claim that the pre-Universe xyz-thingy is a "person."

 

How do we know that our definition(s) is adequate?

I see what you're saying. God as a personal experience, a personal contact. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

The part I have a problem with is God as a person, not that you have your own personal god, or personal stereo, or personal iPod, but that God is a Person, a guy, a human, an individual, a being, a dude, a walking entity with a stick hanging between his legs... or...?

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I have a serious problem with the claim that God would have to be personal.

 

When we say that someone is a person, it includes that the person is limited in time and space. It also means that the being we call a person has limited mental faculties and has a body. I don't see how this idea of an omnipresent, omniscient, non-temporal, non-spatial creature is a person as well. It means that the definition of "person" must change to include "God-creatures." But does it? I'd say it's a fallacy of equivocation to claim that the pre-Universe xyz-thingy is a "person."

 

How do we know that our definition(s) is adequate?

I see what you're saying. God as a personal experience, a personal contact. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

The part I have a problem with is God as a person, not that you have your own personal god, or personal stereo, or personal iPod, but that God is a Person, a guy, a human, an individual, a being, a dude, a walking entity with a stick hanging between his legs... or...?

Isnt the answer here meant to be Jesus? :scratch:

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I see what you're saying. God as a personal experience, a personal contact. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

The part I have a problem with is God as a person, not that you have your own personal god, or personal stereo, or personal iPod, but that God is a Person, a guy, a human, an individual, a being, a dude, a walking entity with a stick hanging between his legs... or...?

Isnt the answer here meant to be Jesus? :scratch:

So Jesus was born before the Universe?

 

The argument I've heard at times, which doesn't make sense, is that God is a person, Jesus is a person, the trinity is three persons, etc. And only a person-God could have been the first cause/creator of the Universe. How can a Jesus, born in time, be born before time, be a person, and all three be one and three persons, beings, guys, dudes, before and during time, infinite, eternal, and non-temporal, all at the same time. In other words, throw whatever word you believe is good at God, and it'll stick.

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I am most certainly convinced there are others that are not my own doing or making up.

 

Suuuuuure -- keep telling yourself that....

 

Like I said the deluded can convince themselves of ANYTHING.

 

I have seen far too many things to not believe in it. I once went to a church that I had only been at once before. I went up the front for prayer, and some young fellow prayed for me. I had never met him or seen him before. He prayed some amazing things over me that were specifically about something going on in my family. How did he know that stuff? I believe he was being led by god. I am talking specific stuff here, not some general airy fairy stuff anyone could mumble out. I had not even spoken to this guy.

 

Come on?!?

 

Riiiiiiiight -- god went out of his way to channel through some other christian so he could convey information to little ole' Kathlene, while god neglects the rest of his earthly children who are suffering in heinous unthinkable ways. Lucky you..................

 

I've seen it hundreds of times -- charlatans use vague references, while the suckers fill in the blanks and claim it was very specific stuff. And/or the charlatans makes some specific references -- some that you relate to and others you don't relate to. Those are called hit and misses -- you simply remember the hits. I can read a fortune from a Chinese fortune cookie and be amazed how specific it was to my situation -- only when you explore it a little more, you will realize you are the one who is making it fit your situation.

 

You've been scammed. More to the point -- you're the gullible individual who is scamming yourself.

 

I have seen your accusation at other religions and hear you on that. I personally have never been any other religion so I can't comment on other peoples experiences of God. It is an interesting point to chew over though.

 

The point I was making is other religions paint different portraits of god. They have differing and contradictory views about god's will and character.

 

Surely, you can comment on this logical dilemma -- can't you?

 

Some christians profess that Jesus is the prince of peace while christian "god warriors" claim he is a militant leader.

 

Monks thought Jesus was the embodiment of humility while mega-church preachers hail Jesus as a motivational tool for monetary successes.

 

Some think of Jesus as an erotic lover while others think of him as pure and chaste.

 

Some think of god as an evil vengeful god while others think of god as all-loving and all-forgiving.

 

And so on and so forth -- don't even get me started on the Hindu gods.

 

Why do they paint different portraits of god?

 

Because ALL the religions invented (made up) their god just like you are doing now.

 

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

-- Susan B. Anthony in 1896, addressing the National American Woman Suffrage Association meet

 

I only know God through Jesus. No other way. I dont have any answers about anyone else's path.

 

Could you please answer this: name one thing that your faith does -- that is good -- that can't be done without it?

 

--S.

 

You know I have spent a couple of days thinking about this thread and this question, and I think Im going to have to concede that you are partly right Sconnor. Everything you say adds up to the whatchamacallit? is it occams razor?

The obvious answer is the obvious answer....and yet I still hold on. I think Clay got it right in his answer to you. My faith does something good that i could never do without it, and to me it does boil down to the salvation of my soul.

This is iffy water I am treading here too and I know that. No-one can see a soul, no-one can had evidence for it either. Why is it that all the evidence and posts that I read in here add up to one thing, and yet I get another?

The only answer I have is faith, as stupid and silly as it sounds. I have seen the evidence in my own life and others on how much Jesus can change you. Perhaps other religions do the same? I wouldnt know.

 

Yes I hear all your arguments about the changing face of Jesus, and what different attribute people give him. Maybe at the end of the day I will just have to say you are all right. However, I still love God, I love reading the Bible, and I do believe God is in my life leading and guiding me. So, where does that leave us? I think these past 2 days have just hit me with really coming to a genuine understanding of the viewpoints of you all in here. So I really do hear you....Im just not willing to believe you. Does that make sense? I still stand in my ground of belief in Jesus, but I do totally understand where you are all at. It doesnt mean I think you choose not to believe on purpose, or any other reason. My faith has made me a far deeper person, than without it. I can only look back on my life as a believer and be thankful and grateful that I have come so far in growth and maturity, compared to who I was before. My faith has made my heart softer to God and being changed by his hand. Is that different to you guys? I dont know, its not my place to say.

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I see what you're saying. God as a personal experience, a personal contact. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

The part I have a problem with is God as a person, not that you have your own personal god, or personal stereo, or personal iPod, but that God is a Person, a guy, a human, an individual, a being, a dude, a walking entity with a stick hanging between his legs... or...?

Isnt the answer here meant to be Jesus? :scratch:

So Jesus was born before the Universe?

 

The argument I've heard at times, which doesn't make sense, is that God is a person, Jesus is a person, the trinity is three persons, etc. And only a person-God could have been the first cause/creator of the Universe. How can a Jesus, born in time, be born before time, be a person, and all three be one and three persons, beings, guys, dudes, before and during time, infinite, eternal, and non-temporal, all at the same time. In other words, throw whatever word you believe is good at God, and it'll stick.

 

I think I was taught that in Genesis, Jesus was there with God the word the father and the spirit...I dont know the full explanation of it off hand though.

Jesus tells the Jews that before Abraham, he was I am...which is in reference to Gods name, meaning he was with God before time. There is also that psalm that says, a body you have prepared for me..in other words he was sent to earth to become man to suffer and feel all that we do, to take our place.

Anyway, dont you guys know this already? Weren't you a pastor once before? Who am I to teach any of you stuff from the bible. sheesh.. :HaHa:

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I think I was taught that in Genesis, Jesus was there with God the word the father and the spirit...I dont know the full explanation of it off hand though.

Jesus tells the Jews that before Abraham, he was I am...which is in reference to Gods name, meaning he was with God before time. There is also that psalm that says, a body you have prepared for me..in other words he was sent to earth to become man to suffer and feel all that we do, to take our place.

Anyway, dont you guys know this already? Weren't you a pastor once before? Who am I to teach any of you stuff from the bible. sheesh.. :HaHa:

You don't get it. The problem is: How can an infinite being be an "person"? It only works if we redefine what the word "person" means.

 

It's like saying: God is a dog. Or God is a papercut. Or God is cucumber slice.

 

Let's do the redefine-words game.

 

I am God.

 

Why not? God is whatever I make God to be. A person is whatever the Christians make it to be, so I could change the meaning of words too.

 

The meaning of the word "person" is: a being, who is limited in space, time, knowledge, ...

 

So God is then a person who is limited in space, time, knowledge...

 

No wait, the religious demand that God is not all those things... Hence, not a person... unless a person is something different.

 

Can a horse be a person? Why not? God and Humans are persons, but cats, parrots, and celery can not?

 

Oh, I know.

 

God is a black.

 

And God is crab five.

 

And God is barber circle handle.

 

Perhaps God is fruity short.

 

It doesn't mean anything. Does it? Well, the same goes for God IS A PERSON.

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I think I was taught that in Genesis, Jesus was there with God the word the father and the spirit...I dont know the full explanation of it off hand though.

Jesus tells the Jews that before Abraham, he was I am...which is in reference to Gods name, meaning he was with God before time. There is also that psalm that says, a body you have prepared for me..in other words he was sent to earth to become man to suffer and feel all that we do, to take our place.

Anyway, dont you guys know this already? Weren't you a pastor once before? Who am I to teach any of you stuff from the bible. sheesh.. :HaHa:

You don't get it. The problem is: How can an infinite being be an "person"? It only works if we redefine what the word "person" means.

 

It's like saying: God is a dog. Or God is a papercut. Or God is cucumber slice.

 

Let's do the redefine-words game.

 

I am God.

 

Why not? God is whatever I make God to be. A person is whatever the Christians make it to be, so I could change the meaning of words too.

 

The meaning of the word "person" is: a being, who is limited in space, time, knowledge, ...

 

So God is then a person who is limited in space, time, knowledge...

 

No wait, the religious demand that God is not all those things... Hence, not a person... unless a person is something different.

 

Can a horse be a person? Why not? God and Humans are persons, but cats, parrots, and celery can not?

 

Oh, I know.

 

God is a black.

 

And God is crab five.

 

And God is barber circle handle.

 

Perhaps God is fruity short.

 

It doesn't mean anything. Does it? Well, the same goes for God IS A PERSON.

ok, my apologies ...I didnt comprehend the question properly. Maybe a person's spirit is what defines a person? Now tell me where the spirit is,lol.

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You know I have spent a couple of days thinking about this thread and this question, and I think Im going to have to concede that you are partly right Sconnor. Everything you say adds up to the whatchamacallit? is it occams razor?

The obvious answer is the obvious answer....and yet I still hold on. I think Clay got it right in his answer to you. My faith does something good that i could never do without it, and to me it does boil down to the salvation of my soul.

This is iffy water I am treading here too and I know that. No-one can see a soul, no-one can had evidence for it either. Why is it that all the evidence and posts that I read in here add up to one thing, and yet I get another?

The only answer I have is faith, as stupid and silly as it sounds. I have seen the evidence in my own life and others on how much Jesus can change you. Perhaps other religions do the same? I wouldnt know.

 

Yes I hear all your arguments about the changing face of Jesus, and what different attribute people give him. Maybe at the end of the day I will just have to say you are all right. However, I still love God, I love reading the Bible, and I do believe God is in my life leading and guiding me. So, where does that leave us? I think these past 2 days have just hit me with really coming to a genuine understanding of the viewpoints of you all in here. So I really do hear you....Im just not willing to believe you. Does that make sense? I still stand in my ground of belief in Jesus, but I do totally understand where you are all at. It doesnt mean I think you choose not to believe on purpose, or any other reason. My faith has made me a far deeper person, than without it. I can only look back on my life as a believer and be thankful and grateful that I have come so far in growth and maturity, compared to who I was before. My faith has made my heart softer to God and being changed by his hand. Is that different to you guys? I dont know, its not my place to say.

 

 

 

That's totally cool, Kathlene. At least you are able to understand other perspectives from these conversations, and come to understand that life is a little more complicated than just accepting things on authority. Overall, you seem to me quite "spiritual" and motivated by intuition and the heart rather than techno-intellectualism and legalistic Bible meanings....

 

I'm reminded of the time when I visited a Buddhist temple for an afternoon, got to hang out with some wise old monks, and hear about their beliefs and approaches. Although I had no inclination to practice their religion (I'm too lazy at my age for meditation anyway) I came away with a warm feeling about what kind of people they were.

 

That's the thing about the human heart; you can only hide it's true nature for so long. Humans are an intuitive lot, and eventually we get to know what's in a person's heart. Whether Christian, Buddhist, Atheist, Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic, rich, poor, well-educated or not, there is no one singular group that can claim a monopoly on goodness, on kindness, tolerance, understanding, and even self-sacrifice for another. If that were not so, it would be obvious which club to join. But in the end there is no one "club", there is only the individual and their journey of conscience.

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ok, my apologies ...I didnt comprehend the question properly. Maybe a person's spirit is what defines a person? Now tell me where the spirit is,lol.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'm glad you finally understood. :phew:

 

I think the answer is that Christians do see a person as being a spirit. God is spirit, angels are spirits, and humans are spirits, so they are all persons, but animals are not spirits, therefore they're not persons.

 

But of course, I disagree with that definition, because I think the work "person" means more than consciousness or awareness.

 

So I think our problem of understanding God as a person lies right in these things.

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I think Clay got it right in his answer to you. My faith does something good that i could never do without it, and to me it does boil down to the salvation of my soul.

This is iffy water I am treading here too and I know that. No-one can see a soul, no-one can had evidence for it either. Why is it that all the evidence and posts that I read in here add up to one thing, and yet I get another?

The only answer I have is faith, as stupid and silly as it sounds.

 

Kathlene,

 

What you say here is what N.T. faith is about. Clay changes faith to include evidence, reason, philosophy, and logic. He's redefining it and basing it upon the world's prerequisites for ordinary belief and knowledge. According to Biblical Christianity, he is either a false prophet or a heretic, basing his belief upon worldly philosophies, rather than faith in Jesus and the salvation story.

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I think Clay got it right in his answer to you. My faith does something good that i could never do without it, and to me it does boil down to the salvation of my soul.

This is iffy water I am treading here too and I know that. No-one can see a soul, no-one can had evidence for it either. Why is it that all the evidence and posts that I read in here add up to one thing, and yet I get another?

The only answer I have is faith, as stupid and silly as it sounds.

 

Kathlene,

 

What you say here is what N.T. faith is about. Clay changes faith to include evidence, reason, philosophy, and logic. He's redefining it and basing it upon the world's prerequisites for ordinary belief and knowledge. According to Biblical Christianity, he is either a false prophet or a heretic, basing his belief upon worldly philosophies, rather than faith in Jesus and the salvation story.

These verses, among many others, show your words are wrong.

 

Joh 20:24-29

(24) But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

(25) The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

(26) And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

(27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

(28) Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

(29) Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

One of the reasons Christ performed miracles was to demonstrate to the rational minds of those around Him that He was in fact the Christ. Belief in Christ is both rational and of faith. It can be both. God understood that our minds, thoughts and talents are all different. He provides enough for all, no matter their education or abilities, to believe.

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I think Clay got it right in his answer to you. My faith does something good that i could never do without it, and to me it does boil down to the salvation of my soul.

This is iffy water I am treading here too and I know that. No-one can see a soul, no-one can had evidence for it either. Why is it that all the evidence and posts that I read in here add up to one thing, and yet I get another?

The only answer I have is faith, as stupid and silly as it sounds.

 

Kathlene,

 

What you say here is what N.T. faith is about. Clay changes faith to include evidence, reason, philosophy, and logic. He's redefining it and basing it upon the world's prerequisites for ordinary belief and knowledge. According to Biblical Christianity, he is either a false prophet or a heretic, basing his belief upon worldly philosophies, rather than faith in Jesus and the salvation story.

These verses, among many others, show your words are wrong.

 

Joh 20:24-29

(24) But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

(25) The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

(26) And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

(27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

(28) Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

(29) Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

One of the reasons Christ performed miracles was to demonstrate to the rational minds of those around Him that He was in fact the Christ. Belief in Christ is both rational and of faith. It can be both. God understood that our minds, thoughts and talents are all different. He provides enough for all, no matter their education or abilities, to believe.

 

That's quite a self-serving interpretation of this passage. Of course, scripture is a great Rorschach test - an ink blot whose interpretations reveal more about the reader than they do the actual content of the book itself. You demonstrate that fact in this instance. You are evidence for the totally subjective nature of the Bible as a basis for religious doctrine.

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One of the reasons Christ performed miracles was to demonstrate to the rational minds of those around Him that He was in fact the Christ. Belief in Christ is both rational and of faith. It can be both. God understood that our minds, thoughts and talents are all different. He provides enough for all, no matter their education or abilities, to believe.

 

*sigh*

 

Mea Culpa, but I have to break my word here, but I'll do it politely.

 

"He provides enough for all..."

 

No. If he did then he doesn't now. 'Christ' performed live miracles before the eyes of the apostles - no live miracles for me. Thomas got to touch the wounds - I don't. It has to be of faith - it has no chance to be rational in the sense you mean. Bowing out again - peace be with you OC.

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These verses, among many others, show your words are wrong.

 

Joh 20:24-29

(24) But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

(25) The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

(26) And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

(27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

(28) Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

(29) Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

One of the reasons Christ performed miracles was to demonstrate to the rational minds of those around Him that He was in fact the Christ. Belief in Christ is both rational and of faith. It can be both. God understood that our minds, thoughts and talents are all different. He provides enough for all, no matter their education or abilities, to believe.

 

Actually, those verses prove my point. You have much to answer for:

 

Romans 1:17

For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

 

Romans 10:17

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

 

1Cor. 2:4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

 

2 Corinthians 5:7

We live by faith, not by sight

 

Colossians 2:8

See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

(edit for typo)

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One of the reasons Christ performed miracles was to demonstrate to the rational minds of those around Him that He was in fact the Christ.

 

Well then, this rational mind wants christ/god to prove himself, too.

 

I'll tell you what OC, if god exists, then god knows, exactly, where to find me -- he can reveal and prove himself and he can tell me, exactly, and concisely, everything he needs me to know, himself -- this way, I can be absolutely certain, what god wants from me, and I don't have to rely on fallible, deluded christian assholes, who make outlandish, contradictory, interpretive claims, they can't substantiate.

 

Additionally, please provide objective evidence that christ performed miracles and/or has any reference in reality.

 

Waiting...............

 

You can add this to your list of outlandish claims you have yet to provide objective evidence for.

 

Also my post #584 and particularly post #579 still need to be addressed.

 

Patiently waiting...................

 

--S.

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You have much to answer for:

We all do.

You were not called to prove the N.T. is true, but to be obedient and tell the Story. Not all who say, Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom. Jesus will say to those, "You never knew me". See you in Hell, Clay. :fdevil:

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One of the reasons Christ performed miracles was to demonstrate to the rational minds of those around Him that He was in fact the Christ.

 

Well then, this rational mind wants christ/god to prove himself, too.

 

--S.

You know, that was the reason for the magic tricks back then. "Rational" people demand evidence. Skeptical people demand good evidence. Gullible people will accept testimony of suckers.

 

According to the New Testament, the miracles were not supposed to stop with Jesus. In fact, the miracles were not supposed to stop with the apostles either.

 

Here's one from someone that Jesus didn't know:

Mark 9

38. "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."

39. "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me,

40. for whoever is not against us is for us.

 

Jesus said all you have to do is believe:

Mark 16

16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

17. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

18. they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

 

This is from Paul who never directly met Jesus:

Acts 19

11. God did extraordinary miracles through Paul,

12. so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.

13. Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out."

 

The members of the church beyond the apostles were authorized to perform miracles:

1 Cor. 12

28. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

 

The fake miracles of the believers today don't fool anyone anymore. Driving out demons, speaking in tongues and faith healing are all "gifts" of chicanery and the property of frauds.

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One of the reasons Christ performed miracles was to demonstrate to the rational minds of those around Him that He was in fact the Christ. Belief in Christ is both rational and of faith.

Performing miracles doesn't validate anyone as being the expected king messiah.

(Exo 7:11-12, Deut 13:1-5)

That validation comes from actually sitting on the throne of David, being properly anointed as king by a prophet and/or high priest, leading people into great compliance with the law, and ushering in the messianic era of great peace and prosperity.

To believe Jesus was "the Christ" is to have no faith in the Old Testament proclamations about such a person.

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