Why Do You Allow Christians On The Site To Post?

[Vigile]

AM, no offense, but I gotta tell you, when reading your posts on these types of subjects it's like you are speaking another language. I have to admit when I try to read them my eyes glaze over. I think perhaps you are writing from another part of the brain than I'm reading from, probably a part not well developed in my own head.

 

Kind of like a Rembrandt enthusiast trying to figure out Dali.

[par4dcourse]

I guess in your hypothetical situation, I would try and get the extra books. But I would still check with pastors, etc to see if it was in line with Gods truth.

Does that satisfy?

 

Kathleen, I don't know you, but that's just sad.

[Ouroboros]

Books and the pastor's opinions represent God's truth. How subjective!

[florduh]

Plutarch - "The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."

 

To discard the human ability to think and reason is tragic. To keep oneself insulated from reality in order to maintain a fantasy is such a waste of potential. It is this mindset that is the basis for cult behavior. Victims of cult thinking live life as a drone and can therefore contribute nothing to humanity. It makes me sad when I see it.

That's the other side of the coin.

 

Just to play the devil's advocate here, let me argue from the tails side of that coin. "To discard the human embrace of hope and dreams which have no empirical data, are not arrived at via a conclusion of reason and research, to reject an acknowledgment of centering ones sense of purpose and being in the unseen without evidence, in an act of Faith, is itself tragic and insulating oneself from the reality of living as a human. It is a fantasy to imagine we have no more control over our lives and destinies than a clock has to strike the next hour because it is ruled and governed by its mechanical parts. It is a denial of reality to reduce the human spirit to a mere machine. It is a delusion of mind to imagine we are robots."

 

Now how much of that would you agree fits your philosophy? Some, but not all? None of it? Then can you imagine that someone who sees the world more dominantly from the left side of the coin, would consider the above charge of how they live as a 'fantasy'? Reality in your eyes, reality in their eyes, is only an interpretation, an understanding, an experience of the whole.

 

I think its a false analogy to say that anyone who embraces a system of religious symbolism in their living out life, is any more discarding thinking and reasoning, than those who dominate their world with the symbols of the material world as 'empirical facts', is themselves discarding faith. The rhetoric polarizes the opposites into the denial of the other in themselves. That to me, is in fact, denying reality.

 

I am not referring to religious symbolism. I refer to the deliberate avoidance of any information that may be contrary to a preconceived notion. One can only imagine a spiritual realm to be real since by definition it isn't detectable by any of the natural means at our disposal such as observation or measurement.

 

Some life events are unpleasant or even tragic. Things the beleaguered mind does to cope with such circumstances include drug and alcohol use, psychotherapy, support groups, medical intervention, and believing in magic. The great themes of life are symbolized in literature and folklore. Christianity in particular largely ignores the power and importance of myth in addition to ignoring science, history and all other evidence in order to maintain the fantasy that Biblical stories are factually true. They are demonstrably not factually true, hence the schism between faith and reason.

 

Running all reading material past your preacher in no way enhances the religious experience. It is an abdication of one's honesty, responsibility, dignity and humanity. Avoiding any study of the religion and the history of its texts, churches and very founding doesn't make one faithful or religious. It makes one a cult member who fears the light of reason that they know exists might enter through the cracks of a blind faith that is founded solely on emotional need.

 

For a religion to have real value it must be able to withstand scrutiny, otherwise we can take Scientology and Raelianism to be as founded in fact as Christianity.

[Deva]

She chooses to believe because it makes her feel good. We can't believe because we need something to be true in order to believe it. For her, something that makes her feel good makes that something true. I'll never understand the position of her and those like her and perhaps she'll never understand why people like us need facts and evidence regardless of how they make us feel.

 

I agree that it seems that Kathlene chooses Christianity because it makes her feel good. I have known many people like this. A few very intelligent ones. I can't argue that Christianity doesn't help some people. I know it is a fact from personal observation. Our psychological make-up is so varied along these lines. If Kathlene thinks it helps her and makes her a happier person, better able to get along with others, to actually carry out "love your neighbor as yourself," then I really have nothing much to say. I still must object to the impulse among Christians to put the blinders on and not think for themselves but simply rely upon authority. That is a form of mental impoverishment. This is all too common.

 

Yes, I doubt many people among the general public can understand the drive for truth that people have on this site. Reminds me of the old Theosophical Society motto "There is no religion higher than truth." I like that motto. Needless to say, Christianity did NOT have a beneficial effect on me.

[Vigile]

That is a form of mental impoverishment. This is all too common.

 

I agree. Might as well just pick up a tambourine, shave your head, give up your life savings and sell flowers in the airport.

[Brakeman]

I still must object to the impulse among Christians to put the blinders on and not think for themselves but simply rely upon authority. That is a form of mental impoverishment. This is all too common.

 

I wonder if there is really a difference. We base our atheism on our observation of the real world. She bases her christianity on her observation of pastors and a British king's bible.

They are both observations, but she chooses not to trust creating her own opinion of the real world but instead she chooses to create a hardened opinion about her bible world.

 

It is telling if she resists investigation into her bible world, because if she does, it shows that she really doesn't believe in it's truth, and she fears it might be just a lie.

[Deva]

It is telling if she resists investigation into her bible world, because if she does, it shows that she really doesn't believe in it's truth, and she fears it might be just a lie.

 

Yes, that was what I was trying to get at. The deliberate turning away from information that might disturb a comfortable world view. It is based on fear of finding out something that is too contradictory.

[Wizened Sage]

I'm glad some Christians visit this site because I frequently write essays on the site that I want Christians to read. I like to think that I cause them to think more deeply about their beliefs. I honestly believe that religion does more harm than good, so this is one place I can sort of anti-proselytize without getting banned (which has happened to me on Christian sites). I find most Christian sites are much less tolerant of dissenting opinions than this one . I am pleased when a Christian posts a comment on this site because then we get to hear the other side's thoughts - which helps us to refine our arguments.

 

Frequently, I also write letters to the editor of a couple local weekly newspapers, usually touching on religion. Obviously, this gets me a much larger audience of believers than this site, but because of the privileged position of religion in our society, one has to tread very, very lightly in order to get published. Here, I can tell it like it is.

 

Oh, and thanks for asking!

[Antlerman]

I am not referring to religious symbolism. I refer to the deliberate avoidance of any information that may be contrary to a preconceived notion. One can only imagine a spiritual realm to be real since by definition it isn't detectable by any of the natural means at our disposal such as observation or measurement.

 

Some life events are unpleasant or even tragic. Things the beleaguered mind does to cope with such circumstances include drug and alcohol use, psychotherapy, support groups, medical intervention, and believing in magic. The great themes of life are symbolized in literature and folklore. Christianity in particular largely ignores the power and importance of myth in addition to ignoring science, history and all other evidence in order to maintain the fantasy that Biblical stories are factually true. They are demonstrably not factually true, hence the schism between faith and reason.

 

Running all reading material past your preacher in no way enhances the religious experience. It is an abdication of one's honesty, responsibility, dignity and humanity. Avoiding any study of the religion and the history of its texts, churches and very founding doesn't make one faithful or religious. It makes one a cult member who fears the light of reason that they know exists might enter through the cracks of a blind faith that is founded solely on emotional need.

 

For a religion to have real value it must be able to withstand scrutiny, otherwise we can take Scientology and Raelianism to be as founded in fact as Christianity.

I agree with 99% of what you say here. The 1% is simply a matter of how one defines "spiritual realm". If meant as a habitat of disembodied ghosts and whatnot, then that I wouldn't accept. But you are right, and its the same thing I say, to shut your brain off is not being a whole person, and hence precludes you from being able to have any sense of spirituality, or wholeness as a person.

[Kathlene]

Okay okay guys,....settle down for pete's sake. I haven't lost my brains or anything. I said I would refer to a pastor to help me. I think there is an inherent danger to running off with something without checking first if it is ok. David Koresh ring a bell anyone? Fine if you want me to take some words and start my own religion and get it screwed up in the process I could do that. However, if there were books out there, I would want to know that what I am reading is backed up by 'the church'. sheesh...

 

I was raised Catholic and had no idea you could have a personal relationship with God. I had only read a tiny bit of the Bible in primary school. It wasn't until I became born again that I started going to a charismatic church. I guess I fell into whatever Bible they read, New International Version and started my journey with God that way.

 

I have been to Bible college and studied the Bible there. I couldnt say 12yrs down the track I remember a lot of it though, lol. This is my faith. I dont think I need to answer to anyone about why I believe or not. You guys put logic, and reasoning almost on a pedastool, and disregard anything else around you. I hope that makes you happy, I truly do. For me however, it was cold and harsh. It shut down any idea of another realm of spirituality out there. It had no hope. I find the deep spirituality as a christian fulfilling to me. It gives my life another level of depth, emotion, love, perception.

 

I cannot describe to you the peace and stability and cleaness I feel being close to Jesus. When I came back to God, and asked for forgiveness, the only thing that cleaned the inside of my soul was Him. Nothing else in this world gave that to me, and nothing else can.

[Shyone]

Okay okay guys,....settle down for pete's sake. I haven't lost my brains or anything. I said I would refer to a pastor to help me. I think there is an inherent danger to running off with something without checking first if it is ok. David Koresh ring a bell anyone?

 

David Koresh was a Pastor. Bad choice of analogy.

 

You're saying that you would ask David Koresh before engaging your own thoughts.

 

Check it with multiple sources, do your own research, think for yourself.

[Kathlene]

Okay okay guys,....settle down for pete's sake. I haven't lost my brains or anything. I said I would refer to a pastor to help me. I think there is an inherent danger to running off with something without checking first if it is ok. David Koresh ring a bell anyone?

 

David Koresh was a Pastor. Bad choice of analogy.

 

You're saying that you would ask David Koresh before engaging your own thoughts.

 

Check it with multiple sources, do your own research, think for yourself.

 

Right, he was a pastor. Did he come under any covering of any church? or did he just say, pick up the Bible and decide to run with whatever the heck he wanted in it without checking or speaking with any other christians?

That was my point. I would check with other christians to see if what I was thinking or reading or interpreting was ok, or there could be a danger that I could end up like David Koresh, starting my own cult on what I believed without help.

[Antlerman]

Fine if you want me to take some words and start my own religion and get it screwed up in the process I could do that. However, if there were books out there, I would want to know that what I am reading is backed up by 'the church'. sheesh...

 

I was raised Catholic and had no idea you could have a personal relationship with God. I had only read a tiny bit of the Bible in primary school. It wasn't until I became born again that I started going to a charismatic church. I guess I fell into whatever Bible they read, New International Version and started my journey with God that way.

To play Devil's advocate here again, if you had gone to the Catholic priest with any questions about God, do you think you would have wound up getting exposed to your 'born again' experience? Then at the same token, if you go and check with the pastor if something is 'backed up by the church' or not, doesn't it stand to reason that you might be denying yourself the opportunity for another, even more positive experience outside his world of 'approved teaching'? I'm sure your Christian experience if you remained a Catholic would be different than what it is now, just as I'm fairly certain that having a Pastor set the guidelines for your study will limit you too.

 

And you know I'm not a harsh skeptic....

[Neon Genesis]

 

 

I have been to Bible college and studied the Bible there. I couldnt say 12yrs down the track I remember a lot of it though, lol. This is my faith. I dont think I need to answer to anyone about why I believe or not. You guys put logic, and reasoning almost on a pedastool, and disregard anything else around you. I hope that makes you happy, I truly do. For me however, it was cold and harsh. It shut down any idea of another realm of spirituality out there. It had no hope. I find the deep spirituality as a christian fulfilling to me. It gives my life another level of depth, emotion, love, perception.

 

 

Why must there be a dichotomy between reason and spirituality? I know my thread has sort of gone off-topic the last couple of pages, but I'd still like to know your opinion on the original question: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/25632-question-for-christians-about-biblical-inerrancy/ If you believe the bible is the inerrant and literal word of God, why must the bible be the literal word of God for it to have value?

[Mriana]

Katherine, now why do you need to check with the Church to see if books such as Robert Price's are OK? To me, that is an attempt to get an authority figure to approve your reading material and if they don't, it would be your loss not to read it. Oh and what about Dawkins, Dennett, and Hitchens? Do you really need an authority figure to approve you reading such books? I think not, because to do so is to allow them to control your reading material. That is on the level of a child asking a parent if they can read, oh I don't know, Harry Potter or the Golden Compass.

[Kathlene]

 

 

I have been to Bible college and studied the Bible there. I couldnt say 12yrs down the track I remember a lot of it though, lol. This is my faith. I dont think I need to answer to anyone about why I believe or not. You guys put logic, and reasoning almost on a pedastool, and disregard anything else around you. I hope that makes you happy, I truly do. For me however, it was cold and harsh. It shut down any idea of another realm of spirituality out there. It had no hope. I find the deep spirituality as a christian fulfilling to me. It gives my life another level of depth, emotion, love, perception.

 

 

Why must there be a dichotomy between reason and spirituality? I know my thread has sort of gone off-topic the last couple of pages, but I'd still like to know your opinion on the original question: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/25632-question-for-christians-about-biblical-inerrancy/ If you believe the bible is the inerrant and literal word of God, why must the bible be the literal word of God for it to have value?

 

 

 

Neon, I believe the Bible is God's word and breathed by him. I do however recognise that the tool it went through was man, therefore, I do accept there are mistakes in the Bible. I believe there is a verse that mentions that no prophets words originated in man's will but Gods. However, seeing as we are humans, with weaknesses and faults I believe there will be errors. I believe the spiritual message of the Bible is what I am to look at. The overall message is the condition of man's heart. I believe that is the underlying message throughout the bible. Look at your heart, repent, find forgiveness. Simple really. It is always a good thing in life to have balance, not extreme.

I have found though that the way christians try to live according to the Bible and the spirit of God in them, is in total opposite to the worlds value system. Which is why I believe we get bashed down so often.

 

Is this really a question of spiritual light verses dark? just asking and putting it out there...

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John1v1-3.

 

For the law was given through Moses;

grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.John1v17.

 

 

Thats how I tie the Old and new testament together, looking at the spiritual condition of my heart.

[Shyone]

Okay okay guys,....settle down for pete's sake. I haven't lost my brains or anything. I said I would refer to a pastor to help me. I think there is an inherent danger to running off with something without checking first if it is ok. David Koresh ring a bell anyone?

 

David Koresh was a Pastor. Bad choice of analogy.

 

You're saying that you would ask David Koresh before engaging your own thoughts.

 

Check it with multiple sources, do your own research, think for yourself.

 

Right, he was a pastor. Did he come under any covering of any church? or did he just say, pick up the Bible and decide to run with whatever the heck he wanted in it without checking or speaking with any other christians?

That was my point. I would check with other christians to see if what I was thinking or reading or interpreting was ok, or there could be a danger that I could end up like David Koresh, starting my own cult on what I believed without help.

David Koresh was 7th day Adventist from a branch that split from the Davidian 7th day adventists in 1955.

 

The Davidians were focused on biblical prophecy: "From its inception in 1930, the reform movement inherited Adventism's apocalypticism, in that they believed themselves to be living in a time when Bible prophecies of a final divine judgment were coming to pass as a prelude to Christ's second coming."

 

He was a good Christian. A Pastor, just like yours. You would have trusted him with your life.

[par4dcourse]

. I do however recognise that the tool it went through was man, therefore, I do accept there are mistakes in the Bible.

 

Catch 22. Men made mistakes and now you're listening to men explain mistakes. It also begs the question: which are the mistaken verses and which men know for sure? After all, you're betting your eternity on it. (I mean men or women, of course.)

[Vigile]

Okay okay guys,....settle down for pete's sake. I haven't lost my brains or anything. I said I would refer to a pastor to help me. I think there is an inherent danger to running off with something without checking first if it is ok. David Koresh ring a bell anyone?

 

What I hear you saying is that you are letting your pastor determine for you if something is right or wrong. It's a filter outside yourself and as such you are giving him control over what you will or won't accept. That's no different from Koresh and his followers.

 

I was raised Catholic and had no idea you could have a personal relationship with God

 

I've heard the born again meme works rather well on Catholics since they have all the other beliefs already in place. I could tell you that you are having an imaginative relationship with yourself but you probably would just shrug and assume I don't know your experiences. You'd be wrong, but what'ya gonna do?

[Vigile]

Right, he was a pastor. Did he come under any covering of any church? or did he just say, pick up the Bible and decide to run with whatever the heck he wanted in it without checking or speaking with any other christians?

 

Ever heard the word spin? Your pastor isn't some kind of expert just because he comes from a mainstream branch of the church. He's just an expert at his brand's spin. What's wrong with objectivity? Only you can choose to view things objectively. Your pastor is guaranteed to spin things how he sees them. If you assume god somehow magically helps him reveal truth then you are treading dangerous ground.

[Vixentrox]

 

 

I have been to Bible college and studied the Bible there. I couldnt say 12yrs down the track I remember a lot of it though, lol. This is my faith. I dont think I need to answer to anyone about why I believe or not. You guys put logic, and reasoning almost on a pedastool, and disregard anything else around you. I hope that makes you happy, I truly do. For me however, it was cold and harsh. It shut down any idea of another realm of spirituality out there. It had no hope. I find the deep spirituality as a christian fulfilling to me. It gives my life another level of depth, emotion, love, perception.

 

 

Why must there be a dichotomy between reason and spirituality? I know my thread has sort of gone off-topic the last couple of pages, but I'd still like to know your opinion on the original question: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/25632-question-for-christians-about-biblical-inerrancy/ If you believe the bible is the inerrant and literal word of God, why must the bible be the literal word of God for it to have value?

 

 

 

Neon, I believe the Bible is God's word and breathed by him. I do however recognise that the tool it went through was man, therefore, I do accept there are mistakes in the Bible. I believe there is a verse that mentions that no prophets words originated in man's will but Gods. However, seeing as we are humans, with weaknesses and faults I believe there will be errors. I believe the spiritual message of the Bible is what I am to look at. The overall message is the condition of man's heart. I believe that is the underlying message throughout the bible. Look at your heart, repent, find forgiveness. Simple really. It is always a good thing in life to have balance, not extreme.

I have found though that the way christians try to live according to the Bible and the spirit of God in them, is in total opposite to the worlds value system. Which is why I believe we get bashed down so often.

 

Is this really a question of spiritual light verses dark? just asking and putting it out there...

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.

Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. John1v1-3.

 

For the law was given through Moses;

grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.John1v17.

 

 

Thats how I tie the Old and new testament together, looking at the spiritual condition of my heart.

What if one of the mistakes was that Jesus never was raised from the dead? What if one of the mistakes was that you are really supposed to kill your first born in sacrifice to your blood thirsty god? What if the mistakes was...hell just about anything that contradicts your core belief? Total opposites of the world's value system? You joking? Most of the western world is still suffering from the effects of your mad and ignorant church.

[Vixentrox]

Oh, and raised Catholic Kathlene? Do you feel they are mistaken in their beliefs? I mean they were really the dominant church for a long long. Guess they had it wrong for all those centuries but little Kathlene knows better than all those church leaders, "pastors" and the like?

[Deva]

I believe the spiritual message of the Bible is what I am to look at. The overall message is the condition of man's heart. I believe that is the underlying message throughout the bible. Look at your heart, repent, find forgiveness. Simple really. It is always a good thing in life to have balance, not extreme.

I have found though that the way christians try to live according to the Bible and the spirit of God in them, is in total opposite to the worlds value system. Which is why I believe we get bashed down so often.

 

I have known many Christians in my life. For the most part, they live just like everyone else except they tend to judge others more. All the vices, everything the "world" does, they do too. They might feel guilty about it later, but they do it, with few exceptions.

 

One of the major reasons I reject the Bible is its "overall message of the condition of man's heart", which I believe to be false. I will agree it is good to have balance, but the the Bible is not where you find a balanced view of humanity.

[Mriana]

What if one of the mistakes was that Jesus never was raised from the dead? What if one of the mistakes was that you are really supposed to kill your first born in sacrifice to your blood thirsty god? What if the mistakes was...hell just about anything that contradicts your core belief? Total opposites of the world's value system? You joking? Most of the western world is still suffering from the effects of your mad and ignorant church.

 

Jesus never did rise from the dead. At least not literally. The story is rewritten animism. That is, it was originally animistic and was anthropomorphicized. It is actually solar mythology that is now anthropomorphic. The animal and human sacrifices were originally done to appease the gods, esp the solar deity, so that crops would do well. Easter is actually a story of good v evil, the sun v moon with the moon as symbolism for the underworld, with good (the sun) winning out in the end. The Resurrection story is actually about the sun, a rewrite of Oser (Osiris) and other like stories, leaving at the basis of Easter, sun worship as seen in Sunrise worship services. Even the date of Easter is set by the first full moon after the vernal equinox. I showed this in a recent blog article I had Dave post. One cannot take the story of the Resurrection literally or even as historical and it makes more sense as solar theology. The story never actually happened. To say it did, is to warp reality and the myths the story is based.

 

This is all the more reason to allow Xians to read and post, because if they read enough, even do their own research, they might see the light and the truth/reality of their religion. There was no historical Jesus as portrayed in the Bible.