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Goodbye Jesus

Jezebel Vs Elijah


Tyson

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So I posed question on another site and received a few answers. I pointed out that in the book of First Kings we are told that Jezebel killed the prophets of god (there is no record of such in the book with the exception of Naboath who was not a prophet) but we are also told that Elijah killed 500 prophets of Baal all on one day. I asked why is it that Jezebel has been eternally demonized, but Elijah, who also killed, is hailed as a great hero?

 

I was basically told that capital punishment was the rule for those who tried to convert Israelites to other religions and I admit, that according to Old Testament barbaric laws, this was true, however, I then asked what if a Christian today (as they do) go to a Muslim country where proselytizing is punishable by death and tries to convert Muslims, wold it be fair to apply the same thinking? So far *crickets*

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So I posed question on another site and received a few answers. I pointed out that in the book of First Kings we are told that Jezebel killed the prophets of god (there is no record of such in the book with the exception of Naboath who was not a prophet) but we are also told that Elijah killed 500 prophets of Baal all on one day. I asked why is it that Jezebel has been eternally demonized, but Elijah, who also killed, is hailed as a great hero?

 

I was basically told that capital punishment was the rule for those who tried to convert Israelites to other religions and I admit, that according to Old Testament barbaric laws, this was true, however, I then asked what if a Christian today (as they do) go to a Muslim country where proselytizing is punishable by death and tries to convert Muslims, wold it be fair to apply the same thinking? So far *crickets*

Most Christians don't really know much about Islam, and they don't care much about it.

 

They might answer the question if it were framed from a Christian perspective: "Instead of knocking on doors to preach the gospel, why not just shoot the unbelievers like in the good old days?"

 

That would bring out some apologies. Christians, however, feel no need to defend Islam.

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So I posed question on another site and received a few answers. I pointed out that in the book of First Kings we are told that Jezebel killed the prophets of god (there is no record of such in the book with the exception of Naboath who was not a prophet) but we are also told that Elijah killed 500 prophets of Baal all on one day. I asked why is it that Jezebel has been eternally demonized, but Elijah, who also killed, is hailed as a great hero?

 

I was basically told that capital punishment was the rule for those who tried to convert Israelites to other religions and I admit, that according to Old Testament barbaric laws, this was true, however, I then asked what if a Christian today (as they do) go to a Muslim country where proselytizing is punishable by death and tries to convert Muslims, would it be fair to apply the same thinking? So far *crickets*

Most Christians don't really know much about Islam, and they don't care much about it.

 

They might answer the question if it were framed from a Christian perspective: "Instead of knocking on doors to preach the gospel, why not just shoot the unbelievers like in the good old days?"

 

That would bring out some apologies. Christians, however, feel no need to defend Islam.

 

When I posed the question I was not even thinking about Islam, to be honest, however, someone (a Christian) answered and said that if a Christian is killed or proselytizing in a Muslim/Communist country they got what the law of that country meted out. I then asked why then, is there so much growing talk about "Christian persecution" in such countries if Christians are receiving what the law dictates just like the priests of Baal received in I Kings 18? Is it fair for Christians to cry persecution, but on the other hand find no issues with others being killed for their faith in ancient Israel?

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So I posed question on another site and received a few answers. I pointed out that in the book of First Kings we are told that Jezebel killed the prophets of god (there is no record of such in the book with the exception of Naboath who was not a prophet) but we are also told that Elijah killed 500 prophets of Baal all on one day. I asked why is it that Jezebel has been eternally demonized, but Elijah, who also killed, is hailed as a great hero?

 

I was basically told that capital punishment was the rule for those who tried to convert Israelites to other religions and I admit, that according to Old Testament barbaric laws, this was true, however, I then asked what if a Christian today (as they do) go to a Muslim country where proselytizing is punishable by death and tries to convert Muslims, would it be fair to apply the same thinking? So far *crickets*

Most Christians don't really know much about Islam, and they don't care much about it.

 

They might answer the question if it were framed from a Christian perspective: "Instead of knocking on doors to preach the gospel, why not just shoot the unbelievers like in the good old days?"

 

That would bring out some apologies. Christians, however, feel no need to defend Islam.

 

When I posed the question I was not even thinking about Islam, to be honest, however, someone (a Christian) answered and said that if a Christian is killed or proselytizing in a Muslim/Communist country they got what the law of that country meted out. I then asked why then, is there so much growing talk about "Christian persecution" in such countries if Christians are receiving what the law dictates just like the priests of Baal received in I Kings 18? Is it fair for Christians to cry persecution, but on the other hand find no issues with others being killed for their faith in ancient Israel?

Oh, very good!

 

I'm glad someone responded. I wonder if they consider the slaying of the prophets of Baal as discrimination or persecution. I suppose they would if they had an ounce of empathy.

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I just went over this topic in bible study (yes I still go but I have to) and the whole story appalled me. I would just look around at the others in the group and they didn't even seem troubled by all the death. When we started going over the OT in bible study, it hit me that Israel then is no better than modern day Iran.

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I just went over this topic in bible study (yes I still go but I have to) and the whole story appalled me. I would just look around at the others in the group and they didn't even seem troubled by all the death. When we started going over the OT in bible study, it hit me that Israel then is no better than modern day Iran.

 

 

This is often the problem. Religious folks either do not connect the dots or refuse to see where they connect because of fear and pride.

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I asked why is it that Jezebel has been eternally demonized, but Elijah, who also killed, is hailed as a great hero?

Because the prophets of Baal were evil, while the prophets of God were good, ergo killing them was entirely appropriate.

 

I'm surprised you didn't get this answer, actually.

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I asked why is it that Jezebel has been eternally demonized, but Elijah, who also killed, is hailed as a great hero?

Because the prophets of Baal were evil, while the prophets of God were good, ergo killing them was entirely appropriate.

 

I'm surprised you didn't get this answer, actually.

 

Actually I did, but again they could not connect the dots. For the sake of making it easy, I admitted that in Israelite law, the book of Deuteronomy does say that a person was to kill anyone in their family who tried to steer them from the national god so this was THEIR law so Elijah killing these "wicked" prophets was okay. However, when I flipped the script and asked if TODAY, base on this thinking, it is okay for Christians to be thrown in jail, tortured or killed in other countries if they break the law by trying to proselytize, then we get silence. What happens to the Christian is called "persecution" and Christian circles are drumming this up nowadays to no end, but the prophets of Baal were not persecuted. They deserved it. Notice the thinking?

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Actually I did, but again they could not connect the dots. For the sake of making it easy, I admitted that in Israelite law, the book of Deuteronomy does say that a person was to kill anyone in their family who tried to steer them from the national god so this was THEIR law so Elijah killing these "wicked" prophets was okay.

It's not really a matter of local law. It's a matter of us vs. them, devout vs. the heathens.

 

However, when I flipped the script and asked if TODAY, base on this thinking, it is okay for Christians to be thrown in jail, tortured or killed in other countries if they break the law by trying to proselytize, then we get silence. What happens to the Christian is called "persecution" and Christian circles are drumming this up nowadays to no end, but the prophets of Baal were not persecuted. They deserved it. Notice the thinking?

Yes, that's because the Christians are the good ones, "us", the in-group. Those persecuting them are the evil ones, "them", the out-group. So regardless of what is legal elsewhere, it will always and evermore be wrong for an out-group member to kill their fellow.

 

Stop trying to be impartial or you'll never get it! ;)

 

More to the point, you should ask them why it is now wrong to kill heathens (they probably consider it wrong, and not merely illegal), and whether it would be right to kill heathens if it were currently legal. Our society's idea of what is proper treatment of out-group members has changed since 2000 years ago, and probably they'd be squeamish about this, which is an inconsistent attitude to take. Fundamentalist Christians think atheists/gays/evolutionists/abortionists/etc. are dragging the country to hell, so in principle we're just as much a threat today as those priests of Baal were. But the majority of fundamentalists would be disturbed by someone killing one of us heathens for religious reasons, and not just in a pragmatic "oh, you shouldn't kill them because it's against the law right now" way.

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Actually I did, but again they could not connect the dots. For the sake of making it easy, I admitted that in Israelite law, the book of Deuteronomy does say that a person was to kill anyone in their family who tried to steer them from the national god so this was THEIR law so Elijah killing these "wicked" prophets was okay.

It's not really a matter of local law. It's a matter of us vs. them, devout vs. the heathens.

 

However, when I flipped the script and asked if TODAY, base on this thinking, it is okay for Christians to be thrown in jail, tortured or killed in other countries if they break the law by trying to proselytize, then we get silence. What happens to the Christian is called "persecution" and Christian circles are drumming this up nowadays to no end, but the prophets of Baal were not persecuted. They deserved it. Notice the thinking?

Yes, that's because the Christians are the good ones, "us", the in-group. Those persecuting them are the evil ones, "them", the out-group. So regardless of what is legal elsewhere, it will always and evermore be wrong for an out-group member to kill their fellow.

 

Stop trying to be impartial or you'll never get it! ;)

 

More to the point, you should ask them why it is now wrong to kill heathens (they probably consider it wrong, and not merely illegal), and whether it would be right to kill heathens if it were currently legal. Our society's idea of what is proper treatment of out-group members has changed since 2000 years ago, and probably they'd be squeamish about this, which is an inconsistent attitude to take. Fundamentalist Christians think atheists/gays/evolutionists/abortionists/etc. are dragging the country to hell, so in principle we're just as much a threat today as those priests of Baal were. But the majority of fundamentalists would be disturbed by someone killing one of us heathens for religious reasons, and not just in a pragmatic "oh, you shouldn't kill them because it's against the law right now" way.

 

Oh Petrel I know how to ask the questions, but you see, this is a Christian forum and the Christians there love running to the mods, reporting posts by non-Christians that forces them to think so you have to pussy-foot with them. When they realize your questions are cornering them, they stop responding and the thread dies so you have to feign ignorance to give them the impression you are convertible material and they will be MORE then happy to give you the usual run of the mill answers..

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Oh Petrel I know how to ask the questions, but you see, this is a Christian forum and the Christians there love running to the mods, reporting posts by non-Christians that forces them to think so you have to pussy-foot with them. When they realize your questions are cornering them, they stop responding and the thread dies so you have to feign ignorance to give them the impression you are convertible material and they will be MORE then happy to give you the usual run of the mill answers..

It hardly seems worth trying to debate under those circumstances. It's like a rigged jury trial with a judge receiving a bribe.

 

And if all you get are "run of the mill" answers, then you can object, but never get into a debate that has a resolution. But then, when does a debate with a Christian have a resolution?

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Oh Petrel I know how to ask the questions, but you see, this is a Christian forum and the Christians there love running to the mods, reporting posts by non-Christians that forces them to think so you have to pussy-foot with them. When they realize your questions are cornering them, they stop responding and the thread dies so you have to feign ignorance to give them the impression you are convertible material and they will be MORE then happy to give you the usual run of the mill answers..

It hardly seems worth trying to debate under those circumstances. It's like a rigged jury trial with a judge receiving a bribe.

 

And if all you get are "run of the mill" answers, then you can object, but never get into a debate that has a resolution. But then, when does a debate with a Christian have a resolution?

 

I know Shyone. I know, however,the mods have cut me some slack after I had a serious talk with them. They realize that some of the wild, out of this world nonsense some of these people are running with needs to be checked. The only stipulation is that I can't grill the Christians unmercifully meaning I have to dumb down my approach to make them feel safe and not make them look bad.

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Oh Petrel I know how to ask the questions, but you see, this is a Christian forum and the Christians there love running to the mods, reporting posts by non-Christians that forces them to think so you have to pussy-foot with them. When they realize your questions are cornering them, they stop responding and the thread dies so you have to feign ignorance to give them the impression you are convertible material and they will be MORE then happy to give you the usual run of the mill answers..

It hardly seems worth trying to debate under those circumstances. It's like a rigged jury trial with a judge receiving a bribe.

 

And if all you get are "run of the mill" answers, then you can object, but never get into a debate that has a resolution. But then, when does a debate with a Christian have a resolution?

 

I know Shyone. I know, however,the mods have cut me some slack after I had a serious talk with them. They realize that some of the wild, out of this world nonsense some of these people are running with needs to be checked. The only stipulation is that I can't grill the Christians unmercifully meaning I have to dumb down my approach to make them feel safe and not make them look bad.

Interesting. It sounds like they wouldn't object to your calling someone out for bigotry and hatred supposedly based on the bible. Maybe.

 

I wonder how many Christians have realized that there is something wrong with the whole scheme when they see people twist the religion like a pretzel. Once you (or even a Christian) get to the heart of the bigotry and hatred, you see that it comes from the same place as all dogma and doctrine.

 

I would almost be interested in why the Christians don't like the Westboro Baptist Church. I've read the comments on this forum, but they are preaching to the choir here. I'm not sure how it plays on a Christian site.

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Jezebel, Delilah, and Salome are my favorite Bible characters. The Jews typically hate strong women.

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Fundamentalist Christians think atheists/gays/evolutionists/abortionists/etc. are dragging the country to hell, so in principle we're just as much a threat today as those priests of Baal were. But the majority of fundamentalists would be disturbed by someone killing one of us heathens for religious reasons, and not just in a pragmatic "oh, you shouldn't kill them because it's against the law right now" way.

They're still doing it now. They're just killing gays in Africa instead of the U.S. Africa is the new hunting ground for fundamentalists.
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I think Jezebel is actually a pretty interesting character, and no worse than any other ancient monarch, once you read between the lines.

 

She is the power behind the throne, and as the daughter of the king of Tyre represents a powerful and positive alliance between the Phoenicians and Israel, giving Israel access to the sea and to new trade opportunities. It's a great opportunity for the entire country to step up in the Middle Eastern world.

 

But because she allows – and promotes – the worship of other gods besides Yahweh, the writers of Kings vilify her, probably even changing her name from something which meant "Virgin of Baal" to "Whore of Baal."

 

I know it's hard to draw the line between myth, propaganda and reality here, but if she was a real person and if the bible account represents a very coloured portrayal of real events, I doubt very much she had the priests of Yahweh killed for no reason. Judging by their response to the priests of Baal, they were dangerous, violent fanatics.

 

And the way she meets her end is admirable. She puts on her makeup and does her hair, and waits at her window, meeting Jehu on his own terms. And when he shows up she taunts him by implying he's a traitor.

 

Jehu, the guy who took over the throne in the name of Yahweh, was a real prize-winner. To the glee of the writer of Kings, he beheaded the rest of the royal family in Jezreel and stacked up their skulls, killed a bunch more people and then went on to kiss Assyrian ass -- way worse than making friends with the Phoenicians, from a Yahwist point of view, although they don't vilify him for that.

 

By the way, it's interesting that a couple centuries later, Hosea has this to say:

 

Hosea 1:4 Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel."

 

Hmmm... so it was OK to commit mass murder at the time, but later it's a bad thing.

 

I suspect all this after-the-fact prophecy was written to explain why the Jews got smacked down. Again. Because being a puny little kingdom sandwiched between three big kingdoms, and beaking off constantly, can't have had anything to do with it.

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Actually I did, but again they could not connect the dots. For the sake of making it easy, I admitted that in Israelite law, the book of Deuteronomy does say that a person was to kill anyone in their family who tried to steer them from the national god so this was THEIR law so Elijah killing these "wicked" prophets was okay. However, when I flipped the script and asked if TODAY, base on this thinking, it is okay for Christians to be thrown in jail, tortured or killed in other countries if they break the law by trying to proselytize, then we get silence. What happens to the Christian is called "persecution" and Christian circles are drumming this up nowadays to no end, but the prophets of Baal were not persecuted. They deserved it. Notice the thinking?

 

Because their law was made by the one true God and master of all the universe, thus it is valid. The Muslims law was written by Mohammad, a false prophet, who himself deserved to die under the righteous law of YWHW, the one true God and master of all the universe, thus it is invalid. That's probably how I would have framed it when I was a Christian, You've got to remember they actually believe that their God is the one true God, source of all that is Good, and all other God's are false.

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I think Jezebel is actually a pretty interesting character, and no worse than any other ancient monarch, once you read between the lines.

 

She is the power behind the throne, and as the daughter of the king of Tyre represents a powerful and positive alliance between the Phoenicians and Israel, giving Israel access to the sea and to new trade opportunities. It's a great opportunity for the entire country to step up in the Middle Eastern world.

 

But because she allows – and promotes – the worship of other gods besides Yahweh, the writers of Kings vilify her, probably even changing her name from something which meant "Virgin of Baal" to "Whore of Baal."

 

I know it's hard to draw the line between myth, propaganda and reality here, but if she was a real person and if the bible account represents a very coloured portrayal of real events, I doubt very much she had the priests of Yahweh killed for no reason. Judging by their response to the priests of Baal, they were dangerous, violent fanatics.

 

And the way she meets her end is admirable. She puts on her makeup and does her hair, and waits at her window, meeting Jehu on his own terms. And when he shows up she taunts him by implying he's a traitor.

 

Jehu, the guy who took over the throne in the name of Yahweh, was a real prize-winner. To the glee of the writer of Kings, he beheaded the rest of the royal family in Jezreel and stacked up their skulls, killed a bunch more people and then went on to kiss Assyrian ass -- way worse than making friends with the Phoenicians, from a Yahwist point of view, although they don't vilify him for that.

 

By the way, it's interesting that a couple centuries later, Hosea has this to say:

 

Hosea 1:4 Then the LORD said to Hosea, "Call him Jezreel, because I will soon punish the house of Jehu for the massacre at Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel."

 

Hmmm... so it was OK to commit mass murder at the time, but later it's a bad thing.

 

I suspect all this after-the-fact prophecy was written to explain why the Jews got smacked down. Again. Because being a puny little kingdom sandwiched between three big kingdoms, and beaking off constantly, can't have had anything to do with it.

 

Wonderful behind the scenes insights.

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Because their law was made by the one true God and master of all the universe, thus it is valid. The Muslims law was written by Mohammad, a false prophet, who himself deserved to die under the righteous law of YWHW, the one true God and master of all the universe, thus it is invalid.

I thought this was the master of the universe?
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Because their law was made by the one true God and master of all the universe, thus it is valid. The Muslims law was written by Mohammad, a false prophet, who himself deserved to die under the righteous law of YWHW, the one true God and master of all the universe, thus it is invalid.

I thought this was the master of the universe?

 

False prophet!!! :lmao:

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I was basically told that capital punishment was the rule for those who tried to convert Israelites to other religions and I admit, that according to Old Testament barbaric laws, this was true.

 

You should ask, "If a Mormon comes to my door to try to convert me, can I kill him?" :HaHa:

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I was waiting for a comment like Jabb's, because it seems to me, that all Jezebel did was build a temple to someone BESIDES Abraham's little brat. And she went out with style and class. She walked to her death with her head high, and perfect hair.

I took another look at this (very short) story in the bible that many make sooo much of, just to cut down women, because I read the novel Skinny Legs and All by Tom Robbins. If anyone wants an interesting (and rather quirky and stoned) look at modern religion and the Middle East, pick it up. It's about more than a decade old, but it's fantastic, and tells the story of Jezebel far more fairly than any preacher would.

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