Is There More To This World/universe Than What Meets The Eye?

[pinkcece]

I was born into a Christian family, a pastor's daughter to boot. In that realm I've experienced lots of unexplainable(?) things. Although it took me a long time to dare to admit that I didn't believe in this loving yet malicious God that was being preached, and that the only way to heaven is through Jesus, I'm still not comfortable with stating that there is "nothing more" and no "higher being" of some sort. Ex-C fits perfectly, but does atheist? Part of why I can't quite go there is:

 

How does one explain the following:

 

• My brother was healed from a severe citrus allergy (it was really bad) by being prayed for in the name of Jesus
  
• A co-worker's back was healed by a healer (warm hands, non religious)
  
• my friend was born with a hole in her heart, they prayed all night, before surgery they took new tests to have the latest possible pictures and voilá the hole was repaired
  
• I experience times that I "just know" what will happen next. I haven't predicted death, but lots of other things (I could give lots of examples if anyone wants them)
  
• my brother (a pastor) prayed for a 9 year old boy who had been deaf since birth, he was healed, confirmed by doctors
  

 

Anyone else experiencing some of the same or wondering the same thing? I

[oddbird1963]

I really have no way to explain any claims of spiritual healing or other miracles based on hearsay.

 

I can say that I have not personally experienced such things in my life, despite faithfully praying for such things.

 

I do want to say that you do not have to be in a rush to declare yourself an atheist. There are many ex-christians on this site who practise non-christian forms of religion or spirituality. Atheism or agnosticism is not a requirement.

 

I wish you the best in your journey to find answers to the questions you have about this life, this universe and our role in it.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

Some of us are atheists, and others have adopted other spiritual lines such as Buddhism, Paganism (several branches), Deism (general god or god-like force), New Age concepts of spirituality, and probably others I can't think of at the moment. I'd guess that I am somewhere in the New Age category, where I do encounter things that one of the other guys here calls "weird shit".

 

So I find that while I am atheist as far as the god of the bible is concerned, there is other stuff that makes me go "Hmm, I wonder what that is about?" or "I wonder why that woman can see dead relatives of people she is around?" "Why was I able to lay hands on my wife's head and her allergies clear completely?" So I can't rule out all manner of other realms, but I don't worry about it or let it rule my life. It is a curiosity and sometimes fun or useful.

 

Being part of Ex-C doesn't necessitate becoming atheist or becoming a tattooed hoodlum or anything else. Be what you feel is the best fit for you at the time, and become the best human you can be.

[par4dcourse]

I haven't experience anything in my 52 years that I couldn't explain via rational occurences if examined closely. The laws of physics are fairly immutable and I question anything or anyone claiming to operate outside those laws; i.e. supernatural.

[florduh]

Ditto Par. Make that 61 years for me.

[pinkcece]

Thank you for replying everyone

 

oddbird:

I like being free of religion and I have absolutely no desire to start worshiping something/someone else and get into all sorts of traditions and rituals. The reason I keep pondering these things, and try to find an answer/a label is that even though my father has passed I still have two brothers that are pastors. We have a great relationship and they don't bug me about faith, but I guess I want to know what I think if it comes up some day. My husband's family is also extremely religious, and we're going to visit them for 3 weeks in March/April. We do NOT have a great relationship at all, and I'm psyching myself up for rejecting their daily prayer gathering before bed... :S

 

fuego:

"Become the best human you an be". I love that! Even if I can't find an answer I think I can eventually be comfortable with something I don't completely understand, and just leave it at that. I certainly don't question my Ex-C'ness. It's interesting to see that I'm not the only one who has experienced unexplainable things.

par4decourse:

I can certainly understand your point. The healing of deafness through prayer does baffle me though. I can't explain that... my brother's healing from a citrus allergy can possibly being attributed to not eating citrus for years (this allergy occurred in his twenties, and stopped in his thirties. I feel like I can find explanations for most of what I've seen, but not all. As far as my personal "knowing things" it's probably what others like to call women's intuition

[florduh]

I can't explain that...

That's no reason to leap to the most improbable explanation. Lots of things haven't been explained. Yet.

[Shyone]

I'm a doctor. I see things that are unusual every day, but not usually associated with religion.

 

There was an atheist who was diagnosed with terminal kidney cancer. He decided to live with no regard for tomorrow, so he spent like crazy, smoked expensive cigars, drank the best liquor, and did other things I won't mention. His cancer went away.

 

Then there was the Christian who came in with a kidney mass, prayed like hell, and died in two years.

 

 

• my friend was born with a hole in her heart, they prayed all night, before surgery they took new tests to have the latest possible pictures and voilá the hole was repaired
   
  
• I experience times that I "just know" what will happen next. I haven't predicted death, but lots of other things (I could give lots of examples if anyone wants them)
  

 

Sometimes things get better, sometimes we make incorrect diagnoses. Some things that are supposed to close don't when they are supposed to, but might close later - and some close with medication.

 

My wife can tell what I'm going to do just about any time of day. She's not psychic - she just knows me very well.

 

I predict a Republican will express disappointment with Obama. I have the gift.

[pinkcece]

florduh:

"Lots of things haven't been explained. Yet."

Very true. People used to think that the earth was round.

 

shyone:

This made me smile:

There was an atheist who was diagnosed with terminal kidney cancer. He decided to live with no regard for tomorrow, so he spent like crazy, smoked expensive cigars, drank the best liquor, and did other things I won't mention. His cancer went away.

Christians think that they only ones that experience "miracles" like that. Somehow it amuses me to hear evidence that they don't have monopoly on amazing things happening.

 

As far as knowing things... well I know pretty much what my husband is going to do too, lol. I don't consider that as part of my "knowing" things though. An example is waking up one Sunday morning and I suddenly just knew that I would meet the man I was going to marry that day. I laughed, shook my head, and got ready for my day. I was joining my father for a visit to a church. They had asked him to come as a guest preacher for one Sunday. One Sunday only. I walked into that church and knew this would be my home church. And I did meet my husband for the first time that day. No sparks flew, we meet briefly, and didn't speak again until we moved to that church several months later. Why did I "know" that? It was my first experience of something like that happening. I can count on one hand the times it has happened to me that strongly. I find it weird. I think it's kind of a cute part of our story. Maybe that's all it is

[Ouroboros]

I'm a doctor. I see things that are unusual every day, but not usually associated with religion.

 

There was an atheist who was diagnosed with terminal kidney cancer. He decided to live with no regard for tomorrow, so he spent like crazy, smoked expensive cigars, drank the best liquor, and did other things I won't mention. His cancer went away.

 

Then there was the Christian who came in with a kidney mass, prayed like hell, and died in two years.

I think I read or heard about new research showing that the body actually can fight of certain cancers by itself. Do you know anything about this?

 

And about seeing the future: I knew when I was a kid that I would become a missionary for the truth, and here I am. God called me to preach atheism.

[pinkcece]

THE EARTH WAS FLAT Sheesh! lol! (Can't seem to find where to edit the post) This is what happens when you've got two kids nagging you while you're posting

 

On seeing the future: I definitely don't think it's a Christian God thing... but why would I just "know" something like that...well, I dunno. It's amusing, interesting, and puzzling to me

[par4dcourse]

THE EARTH WAS FLAT Sheesh! lol! (Can't seem to find where to edit the post) This is what happens when you've got two kids nagging you while you're posting

 

Whew! You had me worried for a second there. Gawd makes the edit button appear after 25 posts, and welcome to the site.

[lunaticheathen]

I have experienced and lived through some pretty nutty stuff. Ask me in a message sometime, if you want to know any of them. There are many of them, too many to clog up a thread with. But I will say that none of them were connected with any kind of christian belief or deity or church. I can honestly say I felt nothing, witnessed nothing amazing or unexplainable connected with the christian faith. My beliefs are not completely rational, but they aren't christian.

[oddbird1963]

I have experienced and lived through some pretty nutty stuff. Ask me in a message sometime, if you want to know any of them. There are many of them, too many to clog up a thread with. But I will say that none of them were connected with any kind of christian belief or deity or church. I can honestly say I felt nothing, witnessed nothing amazing or unexplainable connected with the christian faith. My beliefs are not completely rational, but they aren't christian.

I think all religious expression is symbolic in nature and points to a greater, inexpressible "Ultimate Concern" or "Ultimate Reality."

 

Miracle claims are part of a greater, underlying urge to connect with that Ultimate reality. Part of the religious milleau is a mutually supported delusion similar to the delusion we allow when we allow children to believe in Santa clause.

 

My point? Some of us participated in that delusion in varying degrees. Many of us didn't experience anything that we could describe as "miraculous," "supernatural" or "in the Spirit." I must say, I did feel feelings of connection with the transcendent, but nothing like the miracle claims of Christianity. I still feel that connection as an atheist.

 

People do what they need to do many times to be grasped by a sense of the Ultimate. It's a great drama that many believers silentlyy agree to participate in.

[Shyone]

I have experienced and lived through some pretty nutty stuff. Ask me in a message sometime, if you want to know any of them. There are many of them, too many to clog up a thread with. But I will say that none of them were connected with any kind of christian belief or deity or church. I can honestly say I felt nothing, witnessed nothing amazing or unexplainable connected with the christian faith. My beliefs are not completely rational, but they aren't christian.

I think all religious expression is symbolic in nature and points to a greater, inexpressible "Ultimate Concern" or "Ultimate Reality."

 

Miracle claims are part of a greater, underlying urge to connect with that Ultimate reality. Part of the religious milleau is a mutually supported delusion similar to the delusion we allow when we allow children to believe in Santa clause.

 

My point? Some of us participated in that delusion in varying degrees. Many of us didn't experience anything that we could describe as "miraculous," "supernatural" or "in the Spirit." I must say, I did feel feelings of connection with the transcendent, but nothing like the miracle claims of Christianity. I still feel that connection as an atheist.

 

People do what they need to do many times to be grasped by a sense of the Ultimate. It's a great drama that many believers silentlyy agree to participate in.

I get that ultimate thingy when I finally grasp something that is implied by the way things are.

 

Like how far away those stars are, and how long it took the light to get to earth. Or hydrogen atoms that make up our body have existed as long as the universe (um, maybe).

 

Or how all life is connected by common origins and ancestors.

 

Much more. I will not hesitate to question anything, but I will demand a better explanation than the current one if I am to change my mind.

[Dagan]

• My brother was healed from a severe citrus allergy (it was really bad) by being prayed for in the name of Jesus
  
• A co-worker's back was healed by a healer (warm hands, non religious)
  
• my friend was born with a hole in her heart, they prayed all night, before surgery they took new tests to have the latest possible pictures and voilá the hole was repaired
  
• I experience times that I "just know" what will happen next. I haven't predicted death, but lots of other things (I could give lots of examples if anyone wants them)
  
• my brother (a pastor) prayed for a 9 year old boy who had been deaf since birth, he was healed, confirmed by doctors
  

 

I don't mean to be rude, but there's lots of details missing from these stories which could suck the miraculous air out of the sails.

 

I've seen some strange things too, and had strange experiences, but I can write them all off as tricks of the mind, misdiagnoses, or something random.

 

I would love to see something truly miraculous, something that only could have happened because of God, but somehow I doubt that's ever going to happen.

[bird28]

The most unexplainable thing that happened to me was getting two text messages from nowhere that had the name of my favorite video game character followed by gibberish. Nobody that knew my phone number knew I liked that character...

 

But it becomes less interesting when you consider that I was just discharged from the hospital for having psychosis... and I didn't save the messages so I have no proof it ever happened and on top of that people will just argue that I was crazy.

 

I did get a possible faith healing before however. I was diagnosed as a teen with lupus after I had all the symptoms and a test came back positive. So they prayed over me like crazy, and later on doing more tests it came back negative and my symptoms went away.

 

Mind over matter though, the body can often heal itself if you believe it may happen... I think.

[MultifariousBirdLady]

I'm Pagan.

There are some who would simply chalk this up to magick, in the sense that these prayers tapped into whatever forces or natural processes are able to change things.

 

I can't say for sure that magick actually works, or that there are such forces or natural processes, but I can tell you there are examples of very similar happenings (or coincidences, if you prefer) across many cultures and religious beliefs. Take a look and see for yourself.

[Guest]

I remain open to the idea of there being more to this world than meets the eye. Keeps me humble and keeps me curious

[pinkcece]

Lunaticheathen:

This thread is certainly confirming to me that "miracles" or whatever one chooses to call them aren't just a Christian thing

 

oddbird1963:

I think this search for the "Ultimate", or God, the Universe or whatever is a wish for there to be something more to life. When lots of people believe in "Santa" together then it feels less crazy. There's a desperation in it. It's quite fascinating to me that just about every tribe, or nation, seem to have some god(s) that they worship. Even when they encounter "new" tribes in the middle of nowhere they find that they worship something - usually nature. I have my theories of why that is, but I think that's a whole 'nother thread topic

 

Shyone:

You sound like my husband talking about the amazing universe out there. He knows tremendous amounts about stars, planets, physics... it's mind boggling. I think the vastness and incredible complexity of it is what made us, when Christians, feel like it was proof of God's existence. How could it all have come to be without God? I don't think God created the earth anymore. I don't believe in a Creator, and no longer have a problem with evolution. Our minds are extremely fascinating too. The mind/body connection is also fascinating. I suppose I wonder if there actually IS something more - although maybe it's just energy/chemistry that we haven't proven yet/found yet. Who knows? (btw - you have a lot of great comments )

 

Jabbrwokk:

Not rude at all. I certainly understand that people are skeptic, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm sort of a "newborn Ex-C" and still rumbling through lots of questions. I can kind of rationalize my way through most of these, but the one I get stuck on is the 9-year old deaf boy. He went to a Christian kids camp where my brother was the youth pastor. There were a few hundred people there. This child had been deaf since birth. My brother prayed for him, and he got his hearing back while my brother prayed. They took him to the doctor the next day - his hearing was fine. This was experienced by my own brother - a man who has never experienced anything like that before or since, and who isn't a "crazy" Christian. Maybe there is a rational explanation, but even his own doctors said they couldn't explain it.

 

bird28:

I'm pretty fascinated by the mind/body connection. They say that people who suffer from depression are more likely to get ill, and have lower immune systems than people who are generally happy. Maybe you were healed, maybe you weren't. Who knows... what's great is that you don't have lupus anymore

 

Multifarious Bird Lady:

It's a relief to me to see that Christians don't have the monopoly on "miracles" or whatever one chooses to call it. For me the realization that this wasn't just a Christian phenomenon was a big reason why I started seriously questioning Christianity.

 

wilyfem:

I think that's where I am right now too. Maybe in time that will change. Guess I'm not ready to let go of the possibility of there being something more out there just yet.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

I've had many spiritual experiences, and when I scrutinized them for real, they were just not what they seemed. I am not going to try to prove you wrong. All I am going to say is that its not unusual to have things you can't explain.

 

Is there more than what meets the eye? Of course. Dark matter is real.

[Brother Jeff]

 

Very true. People used to think that the earth was round.

 

 

 

Yes, they did, until they read the bible and "discovered" that it was flat!

[Brother Jeff]

I've had many things happen to me over the years, so I have no doubt that there is more to existence than just the physical universe. But what that is, I don't believe anyone can say for sure -- and certainly not organized religions.

[zandurian]

THE EARTH WAS FLAT Sheesh! lol! (Can't seem to find where to edit the post) This is what happens when you've got two kids nagging you while you're posting

 

 

haha - I read it and didn't even catch the mis-speak until you pointed it out. I read it as what you meant to say. Is that a miracle???

 

I'm right with ya' though, as I've experienced way too many synchronicities and personal transformations to discount an existence of a spiritual reality which transcends the physical universe. However, human nature is generally VERY superstitious and the line between reality and delusion can become hard for many people to distinguish.

[Greatest I am]

Most today do not believe in the possibility or reality of apotheosis.

 

I had one but do not push it because of this fact and as in most cases, if not all cases of this type there is no proof that can be presented.

 

To believe in mine, you would have to believe in ---going in the spirit as the ancients used to call it. I call it in modern terms, telepathy.

 

I initiated this ability twice in my life. The first with my wife and the second with what I call a cosmic consciousness or Godhead.

 

If I had not had the first with my wife, then I would not give any veracity to the second. Because of her testimony to the reality of telepathy, I must give reality to the second.

 

Whenever I speak to anyone else who claims some king of otherworldly contact I have always discounted them because no one could articulate a message that was given. This tells me that they were full of it.

 

In my case there was a message but I took it as private without any particular meaning for anyone else but am happy to pass it on. Make what you will of it.

 

I was told to think more demographically.

 

Regards

DL