To All Of God's Critics

[quickrace89]

Here's a challenge to all of God's critics. If you were God and you had to create beings:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

I can hardly be a critic of a god if I don't believe one exists... playing anyway.

 

1. Equal to me.

2. The highest degree of free will, no restrictions whatsoever.

3. I won't. If they're equal to me, they can figure it out for themselves. Some people are bad, some are good: they will impose whatever order they will.

4. Nothing, because I wouldn't impose a set of laws on people who have no obligation to obey me.

 

Now a question for you: what does YOUR god do to you when you break the rules?

[OnceConvinced]

Right on Heathen Monkey. Natural consequences... causality...

 

Isn't it annoying when Christians suggest that being condemned to Hell is a natural consequence of not accepting salvation -as if their god's hands are tied? I actually had to remind a Christian that her god created Hell in the first place because she tried to equate the threat of eternal torture with a father warning his child against playing in traffic.

 

Oh yeah that is so typical and absolutely absurd and I've heard similar analogies so many times by clueless Christians. God created the traffic and made sure the craziest drivers were right on the kid's street and also made it so that the kid would have to cross the road to get to school. It's like digging a pit in the middle of a child's playground, filling it with venomous snakes, putting chocolate, sweets and all sorts of other goodies down there and then telling the kid not to go into the pit. That's the more accurate analogy.

 

The things Christians will come up with just to try to make their God look like he's loving and just.

 

If anyone tries to tell you that Hell is a choice that you make and that God is not forcing you into it, offer them this scripture which clearly shows that freewill will be violated, victims are going to go kicking and screaming and that Hell is not a choice:

 

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

 

And that's clearly not just eternal seperation from God either. Further more, Jesus doesn't even do his own dirty work. He gets the angels to do it for him.

[Heathen Monkey]

Yup. And what they also don't get is that their God demands the shedding of innocent blood before He is willing to forgive us. It's like one of us asking our kids to kill the family pet and pour its blood out onto a little altar before we forgive them for bunking school last week Wednesday. "You failed Math this term? Right, your kitten goes, oh ... and throw in your hamster for being rude to your mother. Go now ... I want innocent blood Bwuhahahah."

 

They just don't get it

 

Yeah, the willful ignorance is frustrating, and you’d think Christian conservatives, especially, would appreciate this injustice. Anyone who resents Uncle Sam offering tax dollars to support welfare should also resent Jehovah offering an innocent’s death as a WIC coupon to paradise.

[Heathen Monkey]

If anyone tries to tell you that Hell is a choice that you make and that God is not forcing you into it, offer them this scripture which clearly shows that freewill will be violated, victims are going to go kicking and screaming and that Hell is not a choice:

 

Matthew 13:40-42: "Just as the weeds are separated out and burned, so it will be at the end of the world. I, the Son of Man, will send my angels, and they will remove from my Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil, and they will throw them into the furnace and burn them. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

 

And that's clearly not just eternal seperation from God either. Further more, Jesus doesn't even do his own dirty work. He gets the angels to do it for him.

 

Thanks for posting that passage; it might come in handy the next time I discuss religion. Then again, the person I’m thinking of will probably just accuse me of taking it out of context and advise me to come to her Bible study class, where her pastor can explain it to me. She does this whenever I make references to the Bible.

 

For my part, I always decline her invitations because church still reminds me of John Carptenter’s “The White Mountains”. It’s a children’s book I recommend as the perfect allegory about a world enslaved by religion. It starts with a free-thinking boy who leaves his family and risks his life to find a refuge populated by other like-minded individuals. On the way, he and his friends rediscover forgotten technological marvels of ancient men, but at every turn, they’re in danger of being caught and subjected to “capping”, a rite of maturity all boys and girls must undergo when they reach fourteen. Once done, subjects become docile and incurious about anything that doesn’t concern pleasing “the Masters”.

[Heathen Monkey]

For my part, I always decline her invitations because church still reminds me of John Carptenter’s “The White Mountains”. It’s a children’s book I recommend as the perfect allegory about a world enslaved by religion.

 

Oops! This should read John Christopher's "The White Mountains". John Carpenter was the director of "Big Trouble in Little China", a fun movie from the 80s.

[Vixentrox]

Isn't it annoying when Christians suggest that being condemned to Hell is a natural consequence of not accepting salvation -as if their god's hands are tied? I actually had to remind a Christian that her god created Hell in the first place because she tried to equate the threat of eternal torture with a father warning his child against playing in traffic.

 

Yup. And what they also don't get is that their God demands the shedding of innocent blood before He is willing to forgive us. It's like one of us asking our kids to kill the family pet and pour its blood out onto a little altar before we forgive them for bunking school last week Wednesday. "You failed Math this term? Right, your kitten goes, oh ... and throw in your hamster for being rude to your mother. Go now ... I want innocent blood Bwuhahahah."

 

They just don't get it

Christians are just idiots really. They don't see anything wrong with blood sacrifices...or indeed human sacrifice. Hell they engage in ritualized cannibalism and don't even blink an eye. The evil of the faith is really astounding.

[Michael]

For my part, I always decline her invitations because church still reminds me of John Carptenter’s “The White Mountains”. It’s a children’s book I recommend as the perfect allegory about a world enslaved by religion.

 

Oops! This should read John Christopher's "The White Mountains". John Carpenter was the director of "Big Trouble in Little China", a fun movie from the 80s.

 

And do not forget "Halloween I", "The thing" and "Escape from New York" and many other great movies.

[StevoMuso]

Christians are just idiots really. They don't see anything wrong with blood sacrifices...or indeed human sacrifice. Hell they engage in ritualized cannibalism and don't even blink an eye. The evil of the faith is really astounding.

 

Evil is the right word to describe Christianity, along with blood-thirsty, murderous etc etc. I don't think that all Christians are simply idiots though - just very carefully deceived from childhood. The Christian story is made familiar through repetition and universal acceptance. After a while people simply do not see the terrible things or obviously insane doctrines left to us a macabre inheritance from our credulous past, because it's been heard so many times.

 

(You may have noticed I LOOOVE the word "credulous" - it's fun to say - like "tummy rot" - it has a certain ring to it, don't you think?).

[StevoMuso]

And do not forget "Halloween I", "The thing" and "Escape from New York" and many other great movies.

 

 

Brilliant. Thanks - needed a good LOL Movies that show a good allegory about a world enslaved by religion: "Chain-saw massacre" etc. Absolutely brilliant.

[Hungrydingo]

Here's a challenge to all of God's critics. If you were God and you had to create beings:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

 

1. Less powerful, so they will be totally helpess when the planet I put them on has a fit and kills thousands to millions of them with a disaster they won't understand for a few thousand more years.

 

2.Lot's of free will, then I'll give them a bunch of hormones and urges but I'm going to insist they not obey them until they're much older despite feeling them when they're rather young. If they obey their impulses before they go through some ceremony I won't tell them about for few thousand years then I'm going to torture them for eternity.

 

3. Well they can't harm me (god) because they aren't powerful enough, they're quite pathetic and weak and totally undeserving of all this shit I just made for them (including the major natural disasters they're powerless to stop). But I won't prevent them from harming each other at all, nay they'll be quite good at harming each other, and throughout history they'll do that better than anything. I'll make these conditions worse by using the natural disaster I mentioned above to create desperate situations, like drought, plagues, famine, and infertile land. That way when they run out of things they'll panic and start killing each other for whatever it is they need. Of course killing is wrong too.

 

4. Well I mentioned killing is wrong, but I'm going to kill millions of them directly for breaking the rules and indirectly through the rules I put in place for their environment and through the free will I have other human beings who choose to kill. Despite all of this if someone's act wasn't up to snuff I'll torture them for all eternity in a place I created specifically for all the rule breakers.

 

 

Naturally I'm kidding, I don't believe in any gods but the Christian depiction of god is quite terrible and I find any person or deity who behaves the way the Christians depict their deity as reprehensible.

[squint]

Here's a challenge to all of God's critics. If you were God and you had to create beings:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

 

1.) Does that qualify as a logical question?

2.) Zero by comparison meaning then less than free, which by logic does not mean FREE whatsoever

3.) Not possible to hurt the creator so again does that qualify as a logical question? As to others, obviously the creator does not prevent that from happening

4.) Who can BE PERFECT but PERFECT? Unattainable goal except by Perfect and Perfect does not need attainment

[Astreja]

Technical point: If a god (or anyone else) has to give free will to someone, is it accurate to call it free will?

[Thumbelina]

Hey guys this pertains to some questions Mr. OnceConvinced asked OK? (Posts 86-89 on this thread)

So sorry about the textual overload.

What is Hell; part 2?

 

This verse summarizes why God creates Rev. 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

God is loving and giving and He wants to share Himself with His creations.

 

God made man in His image. God's character NEVER changes and He also designed us to be creatures of habit, GOOD habits that is. He also made His intelligent creatures with the ability to choose to do right or wrong. Before sin, man automatically did what was right but after sin man had to make conscious efforts to do what was right and his concept of right and wrong was terribly skewed. God did not totally abandon man and He provided a way of escape from death for man.

 

God designed the human brain in such a way that it contains neural pathways: "The brain is basically a computer that automatically plays the programs (society's beliefs) that are put into it. The neural pathways, thought processes, and mental associations of the brain become ingrained and habitual, thus perpetuating the same behaviors and thought processes over and over again."

 

These habits free our minds to be able to do constructive and positive things (e.g. understanding how the universe works etc.). God wanted us to continually grow and advance but when man moved away from the habit of keeping God's 10 commandments, man lost his spiritual equilibrium and doing right no longer was automatic to him.

 

The right side of the brain controls the sub conscious and the left side of the brain is the conscious portion; here is where humans use reason and logic. The left brain makes all of the decisions but it does not have the power to execute those decisions. The right brain carries out the decisions made by the left brain. If an order given by the left brain has been given a # of times, it then becomes established as a pattern in the right brain which carries out those actions. The right brain then takes over and the person just automatically does what he or she is accustomed doing without even thinking about it.

 

Anyway, I said all of that to say this, we can change habitual bad practices by a correct understanding of the truth as well as by being sensitive to the movement of God's Holy Spirit which admonishes us to follow the right path.

 

In order for us to adopt good and noble thoughts we must behold good and noble things. If we behold bad things then it will be GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out) and we won't be able to fulfill the plan that God has for us; which is to live forever with Him.

 

We see this GIGO all over this planet! People are continually doing evil things till the evil seems so normal to them. Satan and his imps followed this pattern of GIGO until they eventually committed the unpardonable sin; they automatically do evil and they have seared consciences and their reasoning capabilities went to pot.

We see this concept with humans all the time. Their reasoning should tell them if they do certain things they will end up in trouble and their consciences should alert them that they will hurt others if they carry out such and such an action and yet they continue on a downward spiral.

 

I was racking my brain trying to come up with a modern day example of this when I finally got it. On March 11th my mother told me about this guy we knew; he was/is a thief and that fellow got beat up soooooo many times and yet he still continues to steal. One time he got beat up so badly that he ended up losing a hand, still he continued to steal. I mean this guy only thinks about evil. He is suspected of raping a woman; she was coming from work during the wee hours of the morning and she was attacked, when she begged her assailant to not do it for she has a watch and money that she could give instead he promptly told her "No, I just want sex!" Well the lady was raped by a funny smelling dude.

 

Well, eventually that fellow ended up losing a leg and you know what? yup he's still up to his diabolical ways. A few weeks ago a relative of mine looked over a wall and saw this same dude with a little child and he had his private parts in the child's hand. When he was confronted he begged my relative not to tell the child's mother; my relative did tell the child's mother and the mother of that child promptly took a bat and beat up that fellow. He can't rape women anymore so now he's after the young 'uns. He was looking at a teenage relative of mine and someone heard him saying "I could take a woman tonight!" That fellow won't stop until someone takes his life. GIGO! The bible describes people like that fellow as " ... brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish." 2 Peter 2:12 Their reason, conscience and worship all went out the window.

 

 

People who will ultimately end up in hell will be like that; a whole city of NUTTERS just varying degrees of them. They'll be people who did NOT love the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10) and who had totally squelched their consciences.

When God resurrects the wicked for their judgment; they will acknowledge that God was just in banishing them from having eternal life. However the devil will continue his habitual course of lying and deceiving and He will convince all the wicked --- some of whom will be Cain, Hitler, Pol Pot, those Popes from the dark ages, the terrorists who blew up the twin towers etc.-- to attack the New Jerusalem, the Holy City where God, the angels and the saints are and it is at this juncture that God will COMPLETELY unveil His Glory and the wicked as well as this whole polluted earth will be turned into a great ball of fire. Some beings will burn up quite quickly, others a little longer and others for a somewhat long time but eventually this world and the wicked would be turned into ashes, that will be the second death and then God will create a new Earth. See Rev.20-21 .

[bdp]

...blah blah blah blah....

[Michael]

They'll be people who did NOT love the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10) and who had totally squelched their consciences.

 

Xians do not love the truth. This is the reason, why they making shit up every day. Every time when reality bumps into their bible knowledge, they create huuuuge theological ideas why stuff is the way it is. You believe in a lie and in order to keep this lie alive you have to create more lies and so on. I know you believe what you say and there is NO way to accept the fact that you do not love the truth.

[Thumbelina]

Hey guys you liked the tummy rot huh? I got that from a spunky Australian and I liked it.

 

Re: Post #86 -89

Conversation:

 

OnceConvinced: "I don't criticise God, just as I do not critisize Darth Vader, Voldemort or Harry Potter."

 

Thumbelina: Darth Vader, Voldemort or Harry Potter are somewhat real; they're really ploys made by the devil in order to detract people from following God. The more imaginary characters he comes up with, the more folks will doubt the supernatural. Daaang!! it worked on some of y'all!

God's word is like a diamond hidden in a pile of glass. Some people may get cut while looking for the diamond but God is the Great Physician and He'll take care of all who come to Him.

 

OnceConvinced:The Devil and God are also imaginary characters, created by men. Why would you try to rise them above the others, I certainly don't. It seems you completely miss my point. Your God, Voldemort, Darth Vader and Harry Potter are all on par in my eyes.I criticize none of them. Those who believe in the supernatural are gullible. There is a scientific explanation for everything. You just need to get an education rather than believing fairy tales from an ancient book.

 

....................................................

 

 

Response:

OnceConvinced: "It seems you completely miss my point."

Thumbelina: No I didn't, I knew exactly what you meant.

 

OnceConvinced: "Your God, Voldemort, Darth Vader and Harry Potter are all on par in my eyes. I criticize none of them."

Thumbelina: A man decides that he wants to fly, he climbs up on a cliff and starts flapping his "wings" (arms) and he jumps; does gravity care? That was just an illustration about human opinion but God does care.

 

 

 

OnceConvinced: "Those who believe in the supernatural are gullible.

Thumbelina: It is written:

 

OnceConvinced: "There is a scientific explanation for everything."

 

 

Thumbelina: There is a scientific explanation or everything?] As Albert Einstein once said: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Scientists need God for God is the ultimate scientist.

 

Maybe science can explain the reason why humans TORTURE and kill THEIR OWN KIND sooooo much while the rest the animal kingdom barely does that.They at least kill other kinds. Hmmmm (raised eyebrow), I see some kind of racist connotation to that evolutionary THEORY of origins.You have to admit that evolutionists tend to be quite vitriolic with their attacks on creationists. *Sigh* All we want are for all scientists to just state the evidences and for both sides to state that their suppositions are based on FAITH.

 

 

...............................................................

Conversation:

OnceConvinced: "... I can surely make believe that God is real and be critical of him so that I can answer your questions."

Thumbelina: Well, if you make believe only and you keep on that track then you're going to regret it, and it's not because God is mean but because you cling to sin (anything apart from God). Thanks for answering my questions though

 

OnceConvinced: And I say you are going to regret not believing in Voldemort. Because when you least expect it he is going to return and make you suffer for not following him.

 

Frankly if you God is such a vindictive bastard who wishes to make someone suffer simply because they are unable to believe in him,he's hardly worthy of worship. Sorry, Thumbelina but your threats are no different to a Muslim threatening methat I should believe in Allah. You are no different.

 

........................

 

Response:

 

OnceConvinced: And I say you are going to regret not believing in Voldemort. Because when you least expect it he is going to return and make you suffer for not following him.

Thumbelina: Voldemort (the devil) is going to die!

 

OnceConvinced:"Frankly if you God is such a vindictive bastard who wishes to make someone suffer simply because they are unable to believe in him,he's hardly worthy of worship. "

Thumbelina: See my post on"Is God being a pain in the neck when He commands us to worship Him?" and "What is hell?"

 

OnceConvinced:Sorry, Thumbelina but your threats are no different to a Muslim threatening me that I should believe in Allah. You are no different.

 

Scenario 1: Mr. OnceConvinced has a small discolored patch of skin on his arm. Thumbelina notices, she realizes that it's the same as the one she had and she knows that that patch would eventually grow into a terrible flesh eating bacteria that will be detrimental if it is not treated. Thumbelina tries to warn Mr. Onceconvinced to get treated before it is too late; she knows a specialist who is able to control and eventually eliminate that nasty bacteria. When Thumbelina tells this to Mr. Onceconvinced he responds by saying " Waaaaaaaa, boo hoo, Thumbelina threatened me!!"

 

 

Another scenario, if you will?

Mr. OnceConvinced has a small discolored patch of skin on his arm. Thumbelina notices, she realizes that it's the same as the one she had and she knows that that patch would eventually grow into a terrible flesh eating bacteria that will be detrimental if it is not treated. Thumbelina looks at the patch of skin and then she looks at Mr. Onceconvinced, she smiles at him and then says" I love your shoes and your shirt." and she leaves without WARNING him. Is Thumbelina doing Mr, Onceconvinced a favor?

 

James 4:17 says:" Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

It's called a sin of omission. We ARE our brother's keeper; we're supposed to care.

 

...........................................................

 

Conversation:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

OnceConvinced:"Less powerful."

 

 

Thumbelina:Bravo!! :-bd ;as I said in a previous post, if a being can be created then it cannot be a God.

You are asking us to put ourselves in the role of God. That's what I'm doing.

 

 

................................

 

Response:

OnceConvinced:"You are asking us to put ourselves in the role of God. That's what I'm doing"

 

Thumbelina: Huh? I was agreeing with you; You said you would be the beings less powerful, of course they will have to be less powerful; iIf they could be created then they cannot be a deity. Maybe they would end up being demigods or something.

 

 

.......................................................................

 

Conversation:

OnceConvinced:"But I wouldn't treat them like scum like the God of the bible does."

Thumbelina: Who did God treat like scum?

 

OnceConvinced:Everybody. In his eyes all men are evil and sinful. Anyone who does not do as he commands is brutally slain. Read your Old Testament and look at the horrible things your God did. Examples: World wide flood, destroying cities, asking for blood sacrfices, Having kids torn apart by a bear because they called Elisha "Baldy", demanding that rape victims marry their rapists, having Lot send his daughters out to be mob raped to save a couple of angels, demanding a man be stoned for picking up sticks on the sabbath, stripping Job of everything he had and then having some crazy idea that giving him a new family would make up for the loss of the old one, etc etc etc. If someone did stuff like that to you or your loved ones, would you feel you were being treated like scum?

 

 

 

....................................................................................................

 

 

Response:

 

 

 

OnceConvinced:"Everybody. In his eyes all men are evil and sinful.

Thumbelina: Sigh, yes we are, we have this horrible selfish nature that God cannot put up with for eternity; He loves us but He hates the sin and it's His job to separate the sin from the sinner; i.e. from those who would let Him.

 

OnceConvinced:"Anyone who does not do as he commands is brutally slain. Read your Old Testament and look at the horrible things your God did. Examples: World wide flood,..."

Thumbelina: If God did not do that none of us would be here now; you would not be here to be on your computer fencing with me. Evil had proliferated to such a large extent and if God had not intervened, if He had let sin go totally unchecked, it would have contaminated every single human to such an extent that Jesus would not have been able to be born in order to save mankind FROM their sins.The human race would have been kaput! Millions of individuals are going to get eternal life because of that flood.Besides, God gave those antediluvians warning after warning from Noah, they even saw the animals going into the ark as probation was coming to a close and still they hardened their hearts and they ended up being lost. God provided a way of escape and they stubbornly refused to take it.

 

OnceConvinced: "destroying cities,.."

Thumbelina: Same reason as for the flood. Excessive sin would have contaminated the holy line (i.e. people who held on to God by faith and were looking forward to the coming of the Messiah).

 

OnceConvinced:"...asking for blood sacrfices,"

Thumbelina: That was in order to indelibly impress on the minds of the people what sin causes, namely death and unhappiness.

 

Now, about God killing innocent children. God does NOT say whether those children would be in heaven. I know that in my church I've seen women who had miscarriages and they said that they look forward to getting their babies in heaven and they said that as long as they are sincerely abiding in Christ then that should cover the salvation of their dead babies.It is believed that the reason Jesus got baptized was to cover the baptisms of all believers who cannot do it themselves. Eg. The thief on the cross who accepted Jesus and the dead children of believers who did not reach the age of accountability and that includes babies.Um, there's a text in the bible that says that in Heaven when children get to 100 years old they would still be children or some sort of such; I don't remember where that text is though.

 

Imo, I think the reason why an ALL WISE God would be silent on such an issue is because He knows that sinful humans LOVE to rationalize and if He were to say that all babies would go to heaven then those people who believe that it's OK to kill children, e.g. radical Muslims, will do it more and more and God doesn't want them to keep sinning; He wants them to turn to Him so that they can be saved. Heaven rejoices over one repentant sinner. God is somewhat silent on that issue because He doesn't want people murdering children in order to "save" them.

 

 

OnceConvinced:" Having kids torn apart by a bear because they called Elisha "Baldy"

Thumbelina:This other prophecy gives the reason for all the tra la la (drama) that's contained in the bible: Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

It's describing a battle between Christ and Satan, they're showing the universe who is right, The Creator or the creatures and it shows a spiritual battle between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. The entire bible expounds and enlarges on that theme. Throughout scripture you see God's enemies having full frontal attacks on His believers, like the Moabites or Amalekites or the Canaanites. Then we have His church who was ALWAYS compromising and their apostasies have tended to be more covert. Those have always been Satan's strategies, persecution and compromise, compromise and persecution.

 

 

2 Kings 2:24 (KJV)

 

" 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children (young men)of them."

 

The reason for the judgment against those disrespectful young people is explained here:"Had Elisha allowed the mockery to pass unnoticed, he would have continued to be ridiculed and reviled by the rabble, and his mission to instruct and save in a time of grave national peril might have been defeated. This one instance of terrible severity was sufficient to command respect throughout his life. For fifty years he went in and out of the gate of Bethel, and to and fro in the land, from city to city, passing through crowds of idle, rude, dissolute youth; but none mocked him or made light of his qualifications as the prophet of the Most High."

 

Oooooo, our salvation is serious business.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

More responses:

 

OnceConvinced:", demanding that rape victims marry their rapists, ..."

 

 

Thumbelina: Hey dude, those Israelites had just come out of Egypt which represents a SERIOUSLY sinful place, namely this whole dang earth. They had adopted A LOT of the customs and practices of the Egyptians and unfortunately these Israelites were in fact breaking the 10 commandments; God had a contingency plan, He had to add some TEMPORARY laws in order to protect Jesus, The Messiah. Those laws were added because of transgressions (see Gal. 3:19 ). I betcha, those men thought twice about raping any women when they realized that they'll have to marry 'em if they did. There's another one of Moses' laws that said that if someone bears false witness against their neighbor and that person is found guilty then the accuser would have to stone the person they accused. I bet that lessened the occurrences of them lying against their neighbor huh?

 

OnceConvinced:"... having Lot send his daughters out to be mob raped to save a couple of angels,..."

Thumbelina: This was Lot's tummy rot That stupid decision of his reflected the culture of hs time. God did not tell him to do that! That story was recorded to show what utterly stupid ideas finite humans come up with when they lean on their own understanding.

 

OnceConvinced:"... demanding a man be stoned for picking up sticks on the sabbath,..."

Thumbelina: Those Israelites had seen God's awesome power; they had WITNESSED it and for one of them to defiantly go against God like that was so,so brazen! and if God had allowed them to get away with it then more and more people would have followed suit and transgressed the laws. Again, it would have compromised Jesus' coming into the world to save man. God was protecting the Holy line.

 

 

OnceConvinced: "...stripping Job of everything he had and then having some crazy idea that giving him a new family would make up for the loss of the old one, etc etc etc. ..."

Thumbelina: Um, it was Satan that did that, God did permit it cuz the devil was accusing Job of being a timeserver. Ha! Job proved him wrong didn't he? and God told Job off!!!

What if Job will have 20 children to spend eternity with instead of just 10 huh?

 

 

OnceConvinced: "If someone did stuff like that to you or your loved ones, would you feel you were being treated like scum?"

Thumbelina: Yeah, it's human nature; we don't have the vantage point that divinity has.That's why I need to shore up my faith now and claim those promises than God gives cuz He loves me.

 

I did see a member of my church being interviewed on TV and she had 5 children; one of them was seriously ill and she and her husband spent a lot of time caring for that child. There was this troubled young boy around their neighborhood and they reached out to this troubled kid. You know how the boy repaid their kindness? One day when they went out, to socialize a little because of all the stress of taking care of a sick child, that little runt waited till they left and he murdered their 4 children and the reason he gave for doing it was because they were too happy and he wasn't so he decided to take away some of their happiness. By breaking commandment #10 he ended up slipping further and further into sin until he committed murder.Well, that experience brought that couple closer to God and yes it did take a while and eventually God gave them grace so that they could offer forgiveness to that young man. The lady also said that God assured her that as long as she continues in His word she will see her children again.

 

Rom 8:18 says: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

[Michael]

You are not interested in reality. You do not see people as people, you look at them through the eyes of a self righteous religion. You think that you love people, but you really give a shit about them. And posting tons of shit is not a sign of care, it is a sign of pride and ignorance. Obedience toward your god is not equal real love for real people. You are treating people without any respect.

[NotBlinded]

You are not interested in reality. You do not see people as people, you look at them through the eyes of a self righteous religion. You think that you love people, but you really give a shit about them. And posting tons of shit is not a sign of care, it is a sign of pride and ignorance. Obedience toward your god is not equal real love for real people. You are treating people without any respect.

I agree with you. Her posts reek of arrogance and it's pretty disgusting.

[bdp]

Jesus Christ, Thumbelina, could you dump an even bigger palletload of crap on us next time? Or become a supporting member if you're going to waste so much bandwidth.

[Andy]

Here's a challenge to all of God's critics. If you were God and you had to create beings:

 

1.Will the beings you create be equal to you or less powerful?

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

3.How will you prevent those beings from hurting you, each other and their creation?

4.What will you do with those beings who break your rules?

Not really sure why I as a god would create any beings except out of loneliness. So if I'm creating companions:

1. Equal to me. Less powerful beings probably wouldn't be any interesting. As equals we could relate better.

2. As much free will as I have myself. Again, they would be more interesting this way.

3. Once they are created I have no responsibility for or control over their actions. I would defend myself if attacked, but other than that, they do what they want.

4. Same as #3. There are no rules.

[Dagan]

I quit reading when I got to this part:

 

Um, there's a text in the bible that says that in Heaven when children get to 100 years old they would still be children or some sort of such; I don't remember where that text is though.

 

If you can't be bothered to back up your statements, you obviously don't care much about them, and I care even less.

[Thumbelina]

..............................................................................

Post #86 -89 cont'd

Conversation

 

OnceConvinced:" I'd value my creations and not just wipe out entire nations because they do stuff I don't like."

 

Thumbelina:You're referring to those people in the OT that filled up their cup of iniquity huh?

OnceConvinced:Oh yeah, all those babies and toddlers, they were just evil little bastards and deserved death. All those animals were evil too, they deserved to be wiped out.

 

No,I would not treat my creations with such contempt. I guess I'm a more loving more merciful guy than your god.

 

 

Thumbelina, on 10 March 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

 

Let me ask you a question, let's say you have about 10 kids, you set rules for them to follow to protect them and some of them used their FREE WILL and decided to break your rules. You come to realize that some of them started hanging out with the wrong crowd, they're listening to rock music and rap music that tells them it's a noble thing to have sex with the dead and to have orgies in groups and that violence against their fellow man is something that should be sought after. All of this is having a really negative effect on their hypothalamus (part of the frontal lobe).

One child in particular is really out of control and one day when you 're cleaning a bedroom you come to find a note that outlines a plan that that child has and the note says that your child is part of some cult and in order to gain total acceptance into that cult he has to sacrifice ALL of his siblings.You realize that that plan was to be carried out that very same day and you also realize that you're alone in the house at that moment because all of your children supposedly went to a party that the really crazy kid invited them to.The note had actually mentioned where all of this was to take place. Oh! I should mention that you're in an area where there isn't really an active police department.

So, you get in your car and you race to the location and you realize that 2 of your children were already dead and more are going to be killed. You call out to your child to stop and the crazy kid is in some sort of a trance and is totally ignoring you. You then see a gun to the side there and you grab it; it's loaded what will you do? Oh, oh, you also know, because of a prophecy, that the entire world will be saved because a child born from your lineage would be the Messiah.( Gen18:18; Gen22:18; Gen 26:4.)

One evil child or billions of redeemed ones, hmmmm oh what should one do?

Oh! just in case you try to squirm outta that one, you had a vasectomy after the 10th kid, OK? lol.

 

OnceConvinced:You're kidding, right? How is this in any way shape or form similar to anything in the bible? For one thing you are talking about one crazy person here, not a whole city of crazy people. It's one thing to shoot one nutter (which I would do), another thing again to destroy an entire city. If this was your God in this situation he would take a machine gun and mow everyone down in the process not just the crazy guy. I howeever would never do that. I'd take out the crazy guy only. There could be children and babies in the house, but to hell with that, your God would shoot them too.

 

If you are trying to create a scenario here where I am playing the part of God, then you also need to take into consideration that I am omniscient. I knew when I created this crazy guy what he was going to do. I knew what my son was going to do. I would take measure well in advance to ensure that I would never have to be in the situation where I have to shoot anyone or see my children die.

 

You also need to take into consideration that I am all powerful. I would not need to even pick up a gun. I could just erase the crazy guy out of existance with a command.

 

So sorry, you analogy here just doesn't work.

 

.......................................................................................

 

 

 

Response:

 

OnceConvinced:Oh yeah, all those babies and toddlers, they were just evil little bastards and deserved death. All those animals were evil too, they deserved to be wiped out." "

 

Thumbelina: God says he will create a new earth (see Rev. 21:1) and He also says there'd be lots of surprises (see 1Corin. 2:9) I shall give an example of why God is NOT like us.He does things in the most unconventional ways but first ...

 

Gen18:14 says: "Is any thing too hard for the LORD? ..."

God has everything covered.

If the bible is RIGHTLY studied one would see God's love and grace throughout.

 

 

This is an aside OK? I chose to write this because a lot of people misconstrue the teachings of the bible and this is why:

 

Though the bible was written by men it has divine qualities; the following method of studying the bible should be employed by all those who sincerely want to understand it.:

 

Isa 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:

 

 

 

 

God's truth is absolute but to finite beings it is progressive However, God is willing to share mysteries with us.

From a biblical pov, a mystery is an idea that is hidden in the mind of God from eternity but revealed to human beings at the right time. (See Rom. 16:25-27)

 

If one reads Mark 4:11-12 , one would see why close minded individuals definitely would not understand the bible .

 

There are two Greek words in verse 12 and their meanings are:

1. hina = in order that; so that; with the result that; because; that is to say.

 

2 . mēpote = perhaps; lest; otherwise.

 

Here's Mark 4:11-12 in plain English :

And He began to say to them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is in riddles, because (ἵνα; hina), although they look, they look and do not see, and although they listen, they listen and do not understand, otherwise (μήποτε ; mēpote ) they would turn and it would be forgiven them."

 

A parable puts a choice before someone:- Would you listen; would you understand?

People who have willing hearts will hear and understand the parables and to those who are not willing to understand it can really seem to be convoluted.

 

 

This life is a test to see who wants to live eternally with God. I mean, how many parents hate it when they're chastening their disobedient child and that child asks "Did I ask to be born?" Ya know, a lot of people tend to do that to God.

It is a LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY for an unborn child to ask to be born, once they're ALLOWED to be born they should learn to live right.

 

Biblical principles show that God is giving each of us a chance to live with HIM for eternity; if one does not want to do that then He will grant them their wish but that person should live their current life to the best of their ability. However, that sure would be impossible to do if one totally disregards listening to God eg. Saul in the OT and the demoniac in the NT(though the demoniac ended up being redeemed); they were demon possessed and could not control themselves. The reason the bible gives as to why people (whether they're believers or not) can seem to basically be moral is because we are still responding to God's Holy Spirit which works through our conscience.

 

....................

 

Soooorrry bro', now back to answering your question.

God is in control. Death is NOT a problem for God.

 

In Mark 5:25-43 there are 2 acted parables. One was about a woman with an issue of blood and the other was about Jairus' daughter. Jesus was still popular with the masses during this time and He was on His way to heal a man's 12 year old daughter when he was detained by a sick woman who touched His clothes. As a result of Jesus' delay the man's daughter eventually died but that was NOT A PROBLEM for Jesus.

Jesus healed the chronic case before He healed the acute case and in both situations He made jokes in order to highlight the fact that He has the power to take care of us and we should not worry. Could you imagine if a regular doctor were to try that? They would be fired for malpractice or maybe even jailed.God can resurrect people!!!

 

OnceConvinced: "You're kidding, right? How is this in any way shape or form similar to anything in the bible? For one thing you are talking about one crazy person here, not a whole city of crazy people. It's one thing to shoot one nutter (which I would do), another thing again to destroy an entire city."

Thumbelina: Nope not kidding one bit; I am talking about billions of nutters and that is exactly why they will end up being incinerated. They WILL try to attack God and the redeemed ones and that's when God has to step in and stop them!

 

"If you are trying to create a scenario here where I am playing the part of God, ..."

Nah, you were you in that scenario, I just wanted you to identify with God and for you to see why He calls Himself a jealous God for He's protecting His children who do not want to continue in rebellion against Him as well as against their fellow creatures.

 

Now, you do not seem to understand the biblical concept of free will. Free will has to do with WORSHIP. If you look at the bible from Genesis to Revelation you would NEVER see God forcing someone to worship Him. Forced Faith is a diabolical concept that the devil invented.

God can and do sometimes force people to physically submit to His power but He never lets them worship Him against their will. Even when that turncoat Balaam went against the Israelites, God forced Him to speak the truth but He did not force Him to remain His servant; God let HIm go (see Num.22-24). Ya know what? I think Hollywood stole this concept for the movie Liar liar; about a man not being able to lie i.e.

Anyway that's why church and state need to be separated cuz mankind should be able to follow the dictates of their conscience with regards to worship, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of their fellow man; namely, as long as the principles of the last 6 commandments are kept.

 

 

OnceConvinced:"I would not need to even pick up a gun. I could just erase the crazy guy out of existance with a command."

 

Thumbelina: God won't have to pick up a gun either. All He has to do to erase evil once and for all is to be Himself; He will unveil His glory in the presence of all, and whomever remained evil will be consumed.

 

P.S. Sorry about writing so much all at once, it's just that I'm trying to get some folk to at least take an OBJECTIVE view as to what I'm saying. Also, I am answering some of the questions that was asked.

 

P.P.S.lol. That OnceConvinced can sure tire out a Christian; I'm still trying to figure out if it's good or bad though heh heh.

[Mriana]

Is it just me or did Thumbelina just dump a boat load of nonsensical crap? I don't know why I even tried to read her posts. I feel like Spock and Sarek right now, "Illogical! Illogical! Illogical!". None of it made a bit of sense. It is like she is living in Never-Never Land.

[agnosticator]

One day when they went out, to socialize a little because of all the stress of taking care of a sick child, that little runt waited till they left and he murdered their 4 children and the reason he gave for doing it was because they were too happy and he wasn't so he decided to take away some of their happiness. By breaking commandment #10 he ended up slipping further and further into sin until he committed murder.Well, that experience brought that couple closer to God and yes it did take a while and eventually God gave them grace so that they could offer forgiveness to that young man. The lady also said that God assured her that as long as she continues in His word she will see her children again.

 

Rom 8:18 says: For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

 

This is some sick and twisted reasoning. The Christians who were victimized forgave the murderer, and the murderer, if accepting forgiveness from God and his victims, can go to heaven scot-free. This can and does happen. Jeffrey Dahmer converted in prison, so let's forgive his ass too! This is not justice. This is spitting on the graves of their children.

 

There is no forgiveness for cold-blooded murder, if you are a sane person. All the victim can do (without being a lunatic) is to move on and try to salvage their own lives.

[agnosticator]

Is it just me or did Thumbelina just dump a boat load of nonsensical crap? I don't know why I even tried to read her posts. I feel like Spock and Sarek right now, "Illogical! Illogical! Illogical!". None of it made a bit of sense. It is like she is living in Never-Never Land.

 

I think Thumbelina has her thumb up her ass!