To All Of God's Critics

[Thumbelina]

Re: Posts #86 -89 cont'd

 

Conversation:

Thumbelina, on 10 March 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

 

OnceConvinced:" If I made a mistake with one, I'd just make an adjustment of some kind and get rid of the flaw, after all that's what a good creator would do."

Thumbelina: You'd take away the freedom to choose from your creatures? They'd be mere robots?

God cannot and would not predetermine the free, spiritual acts of man. If those acts are predetermined, they are not free. If they are not free then they are predetermined.

Forced faith is false faith!!!! God's character see here: Exodus 34:6

 

OnceConvinced:"Where did I say I would take away freewill? I would simply make a necessary adjustment. If that's considered a violation of free will, then so be it. Throwing someone into Hell is also a violation of freewill, but God's going to do that too. We could even argue that healing is a violation of freewill. What about God softening someone's heart? A violation of freewill too? Let's also not overlook the fact that all throughout the bible God violates freewill. He hardens people's hearts, (eg Pharaoah), he also violated the freewill of the Midianites by forciing them all to turn on each other. Sometimes a small violation is necessary. One little thing is better than allowing my creations to run rampant like Satan has. It's not a matter of turning them into robots, it's a matter of fixing up a design flaw.

 

Scriptures where God happily violates freewill:

 

Daniel 1: 9 , Isaiah 29:10 , Jeremiah 19:9 , Act 16:6, Act 16:7 "

 

 

Thumbelina, on 10 March 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

 

2.What degree of free will will you allow to those beings?

OnceConvinced I'd give them freewill, but I would put mechanisms in place to prevent them from doing evil.

Thumbelina: As aforementioned, that is NOT free will

 

OnceConvinced:Then pain, fear and all those other mechanisms are also a violation of freewill, so according to your rules should not exist at all. Please explain how it's a violation of freewill when it comes to spiritual danger, but it's not for physical danger? If I wish to climb up a sheer cliff face but feel fear, then my freewill is being violated by God. If I want to touch a hot element but don't for fear of being burnt, then that is a violation of freewill.

 

 

 

Thumbelina, on 10 March 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

 

OK, this is one of the tummy rot parts in your "solution" heh heh

 

OnceConvinced: Please explain how this is tommy rot and why it would not work. All you have done is put my suggestion down then gone on to preach about what the bible says about God supposedly dealing with sin. None of it refutes my idea that pain and fear could be used to prevent sin.

 

 

Thumbelina, on 10 March 2010 - 03:02 PM, said:

 

God did make an adjustment, when the cancer of sin or the mystery of iniquity 2 Thessalonians 2:7 came about, He tackled it head on!!!!!!!!

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death death and NOT dying and dying and dying for infinity.

OnceConvinced: This is the tummy rot. God has clearly not dealt with the problem of sin as evidenced by the fact that people still sin.

 

 

My solution would prevent almost all deliberate sin. It would prevent it before it even happened just as the fear of pain prevents us from touching a hot element. [/b]

 

 

........................................................................

 

 

Response:

 

OnceConvinced:" If I made a mistake with one, I'd just make an adjustment of some kind and get rid of the flaw, after all that's what a good creator would do."

Thumbelina: God made everything good. It was creaturely self-corruption or their misuse of their free will that caused all the mess.

As I said previously, God will never force His creatures to worship Him, their worship must be freely given otherwise they CANNOT live with Him. He does not want cants.

God let His creatures experiment with living partially autonomous lives but He really really loves us. It's by beholding His goodness that leads us to repentance (see Rom2:4).

He allows us to make smaller mistakes in this life in order to prevent us from making colossal

ones that would work our eternal ruin.

Another thing, just because God knows the future does not mean that He ultimately wants it to be how it's going to be. He has to factor in the free will of ALL His creatures and believe it or not, the devil and his minions as well as all the humans that will ultimately be destroyed would be a small minority compared to the rest of God's loyal followers. It's just that God loves each individual and even just one missing soul would cause Him pain but He had to allow it as a deterrent to those who will inhabit eternity with Him and at the end of it all every one will ADMIT that an all wise God does love and care for His creations and those who are lost chose to be lost.

 

OnceConvinced:"He hardens people's hearts, (eg Pharaoah), ..."

 

Thumbelina: Ahem, Pharaoah hardened his own dang heart!

See here:

"But what does it mean that God 'hardened' the Pharaoh's heart? The answer may be found in the Egyptian concept of the heart as the ib, the inner spiritual center or essence of the individual. The condition of one's heart determined one's eternal destiny. After death, the soul of the deceased was weighed in the balances of truth,which represented judgment. On the other side of the scale was a feather, symbolizing the good. If the heart weighed no more than the feather, its owner would receive eternal life.But if the evil in one's heart caused it to outweigh the feather, the person would be devoured by the goddess Amenit.

 

The Hebrew word that has been translated as "hardened" can also mean "to make heavy." Thus, the phrase in question may actually mean "God caused Pharaoh's heart to become heavy"--- another way of saying that he was dooming himself to eternal destruction, this because of the falsity of his religion.

According to the Bible, by hardening the Pharaoh's heart, Yahweh was demonstrating that He alone was the true God of the universe: "I will harden Pharaoh's heart ...So that I will gain glory for myself over Pharaoh and all his army; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord" (Exodus14:4).

 

 

Hmmmmm, those biblical writers were quite adept at word play and the use of literary devices too; they were quite good at incorporating different cultural and religious concepts in their writings in order to get their message across. Not bad for some "primitive" men eh? Moses grew up in Egypt and he wrote the book of Exodus, He could have been a pharaoh you know; but he knew this decaying world is such a paltry thing compared to what was in store for him.

 

OnceConvinced:Scriptures where God happily violates freewill:

Daniel 1: 9 , Isaiah 29:10 , Jeremiah 19:9 , Act 16:6, Act 16:7 "

 

Thumbelina: Dude, God did not force anyone to worship Him in any of these texts . God owns everything and everyone, He owns you and He owns me. We can still hear that still small voice of His speaking to us. It' just that some folk get quite defiant sometimes and God has to step in, in order for His purposes to be accomplished. But He NEVER forces people to worship Him.

 

OnceConvinced:"Then pain, fear and all those other mechanisms are also a violation of freewill, so according to your rules should not exist at all. Please explain how it's a violation of freewill when it comes to spiritual danger, but it's not for physical danger? If I wish to climb up a sheer cliff face but feel fear, then my freewill is being violated by God. If I want to touch a hot element but don't for fear of being burnt, then that is a violation of freewill.

 

Thumbelina: God did not put in those mechanisms before sin happened; there was no need to. Prior to sin there were no negative feelings whether physical or mental. That devil started it and I'm pretty sure he must have felt some sort of trepidation when he started to shift away from God; that should have been a warning sign right then and there but no, that fiend had to continue on his downward spiral. Eve too, she had no idea about fear or pain until she sinned; betcha she regretted it the first time she felt an eyelash poking her in the eye. God let sin rip! but His "I told you so" has some eternal consequences.

Alfred Lord Tennyson once wrote, '"Tis better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." In God's case that is sooooooo true; He and Lucifer had some good times together before ol' Luci's stinkin' thinkin' occurred. Luci' did not want to be with God anymore and he would have jeopardized God's entire universe. So, when he and his minions reached the point of no return it was determined that they will die!

 

 

P.S. I still have to tell you about the angels who are supposedly doing God's dirty work, but not now, it'll have to be at another time.

[agnosticator]

P.S. I still have to tell you about the angels who are supposedly doing God's dirty work, but not now, it'll have to be at another time though.

 

How many angels can fit on the head of a pin? How many angels does it take to do God's dirty work? How many brain cells are we killing reading Thumbelina's posts?

[bdp]

P.S. I still have to tell you about the angels who are supposedly doing God's dirty work, but not now, it'll have to be at another time though.

 

...and my brother's church taught that angels were there to go and gather wealth for god's favorites.

[Mriana]

Is it just me or did Thumbelina just dump a boat load of nonsensical crap? I don't know why I even tried to read her posts. I feel like Spock and Sarek right now, "Illogical! Illogical! Illogical!". None of it made a bit of sense. It is like she is living in Never-Never Land.

 

I think Thumbelina has her thumb up her ass!

 

Yeah, because she sure doesn't make any sense.

 

 

P.S. I still have to tell you about the angels who are supposedly doing God's dirty work, but not now, it'll have to be at another time though.

 

How many angels can fit on the head of a pin? How many angels does it take to do God's dirty work? How many brain cells are we killing reading Thumbelina's posts?

 

Don't you know, the reason why angels fit on the head of a pin is because they are actually faeries? Yes, they started out as faeries and in the course developing Xian mythology, they "evolved" into angels. Guess that is why Tinkerbell, er... um... Thumbelina is here, trying to convince us faeries exist among other crazy things in Never Never Land.

[Dagan]

Somewhere, a village is missing an idiot.

[ContraBardus]

I have to pee, so I've only been scanning. [i knew I could hold it long enough to make it to the end! ]

 

I really must say, that despite her horrible logic, over analysis and misrepresentation of scripture, and complete lack of context or research into her statements.

 

I do love her formatting. It's neat, well organized and easy to read.

 

Of course it's still total crap, but it's very easy to read and understand crap.

 

Horrible arguments, but great formatting. You get + 10 for grammar.

 

Unfortunately, the content is still an 'F'.

 

[StevoMuso]

This is some sick and twisted reasoning. The Christians who were victimized forgave the murderer, and the murderer, if accepting forgiveness from God and his victims, can go to heaven scot-free. This can and does happen. Jeffrey Dahmer converted in prison, so let's forgive his ass too! This is not justice. This is spitting on the graves of their children.

 

There is no forgiveness for cold-blooded murder, if you are a sane person. All the victim can do (without being a lunatic) is to move on and try to salvage their own lives.

I agree. If some sick bastard killed my kids I would personally rip him to pieces with my bare hands, no matter WHO he asked to forgive him. And sorry, but the wrong would have been done against ME, not God, so I would be the only one with the right to grant forgiveness, not God. And do you know what? I wouldn't forgive him. I would want restitution, and since that would not be possible to grant, I would demand that the perpetrator be removed from society permanently.

 

To my mind the doctrine of forgiveness is one of the sickest, most morally corrupting teachings in Christianity.

 

Oh, and Mraina, this

that is why Tinkerbell, er... um... Thumbelina is here, trying to convince us faeries exist

was brilliant. Thanks for the LOL

[Mriana]

Oh, and Mraina, this

that is why Tinkerbell, er... um... Thumbelina is here, trying to convince us faeries exist

was brilliant. Thanks for the LOL

 

You're welcome.

[centauri]

The thief on the cross who accepted Jesus and the dead children of believers who did not reach the age of accountability and that includes babies.

Where does the New Testament define the “age of accountability”.

At what age do children become tainted with sin from Adam?

 

It's describing a battle between Christ and Satan, they're showing the universe who is right, The Creator or the creatures and it shows a spiritual battle between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. The entire bible expounds and enlarges on that theme.

The entire Bible does not expound on that theme.

Cite one verse from the Old Testament where Satan disobeys an order from God.

 

God had a contingency plan, He had to add some TEMPORARY laws in order to protect Jesus, The Messiah.

Where did Moses say that God’s laws were temporary and were given to protect Jesus?

Chapter and verse please.

 

Oh, oh, you also know, because of a prophecy, that the entire world will be saved because a child born from your lineage would be the Messiah.

Only males can pass kingships and titles.

Jesus had no biological father, never sat on the throne of David, and didn’t perform the tasks of a king messiah.

God's truth is absolute but to finite beings it is progressive However, God is willing to share mysteries with us.

What is the truth about eating pork?

Is it offensive to God? A yes or no will suffice here.

If one reads Mark 4:11-12 one would see why close minded individuals definitely would not understand the bible .

People who have willing hearts will hear and understand the parables and to those who are not willing to understand it can really seem to be convoluted.

Jesus deliberately obfuscated those particular messages, only revealing the secrets to his inner circle.

It has nothing to do with having a closed mind.

The message was presented in a form that was designed to confuse people.

His own disciples couldn’t understand it until he explained it to them in private.

[centauri]

Now, you do not seem to understand the biblical concept of free will. Free will has to do with WORSHIP. If you look at the bible from Genesis to Revelation you would NEVER see God forcing someone to worship Him. Forced Faith is a diabolical concept that the devil invented.

Congratulations, you’ve just defined Paul as the Devil.

Predestination voids free will.

Eph 1:4-5,11 shows that at least some people are predestined to their belief and worship.

God also manipulates human behavior if it suits his purposes.

You’ve also misused the word “free”.

The choice to worship God isn’t free, it’s an ultimatum.

 

God cannot and would not predetermine the free, spiritual acts of man. If those acts are predetermined, they are not free.

The Bible says otherwise:

Eph 1:4-5,11

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

What does the word predestine mean?

Whose purpose drives the events?

According to whose will are these things done?

 

God made everything good. It was creaturely self-corruption or their misuse of their free will that caused all the mess.

Your “free will” dogma is a fairy tale if the Bible is to be taken seriously.

If God created everything perfect and good, then a created being cannot sin.

As soon as it sins, it shows that it wasn’t made perfect.

 

Pharaoah hardened his own dang heart!

That’s not what the text says.

Exo 4:21

And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

[godsfavoritecolor]

"Thumbelina, Thumbelina tiny little thing

Thumbelina dance, Thumbelina sing"

[Shyone]

The thief on the cross who accepted Jesus and the dead children of believers who did not reach the age of accountability and that includes babies.

Where does the New Testament define the “age of accountability”.

At what age do children become tainted with sin from Adam?

 

It's describing a battle between Christ and Satan, they're showing the universe who is right, The Creator or the creatures and it shows a spiritual battle between the followers of Christ and the followers of Satan. The entire bible expounds and enlarges on that theme.

The entire Bible does not expound on that theme.

Cite one verse from the Old Testament where Satan disobeys an order from God.

Brilliant post. I can't believe you could actually read that. It made me slightly nauseous.

 

This attitude reflects what Thumbelina wants to believe - that children go to heaven even without "earning" it. This logic, however, is twisted and justifies infanticide and the deliberate killing of children to save their souls, a theme too common in cases where Christians have killed their children.

 

If a child has a 10% chance of becoming an atheist and a (conservative) 20% chance of otherwise screwing up, then a parent that loves their children and is willing to sacrifice their immortal soul for the sake of their children's immortal souls would kill their children immediately - before the "age of consent."

 

And then ask for forgiveness.

 

Why risk allowing your child to become an atheist? Or committing some unforgivable sin?

 

Incidentally, the question asking for the age of consent seems particularly poignant given that it is a legal term established arbitrarily by humans and variable across the world - and even the states in the United States. Or, if the "age of accountability" is not the same as the legal term, it is still arbitrary. A child does not really become adult instantaneously.

 

One day the "child" goes to heaven, the next day HELL!

 

I wonder if God would give a 10 day grace period...

[Michael]

She totally ignores what people say. She does not answer to other posts, instead she continues to throw shit at people. She either thinks that "the truth will set them free", so throw at them with the truth as often as possible or she masturbates and/or laughs while posting this stuff. (Imagine a weird laughter....

)

[StevoMuso]

This attitude reflects what Thumbelina wants to believe - that children go to heaven even without "earning" it. This logic, however, is twisted and justifies infanticide and the deliberate killing of children to save their souls, a theme too common in cases where Christians have killed their children.

The witch-burners of the Inquisition used the same logic when killing people accused of witchcraft in the most hideously cruel ways. They thought that by destroying the body they would be "saving the soul". Another tragic part of our human history written by the hand of religion and inspired by the Bible.

[OnceConvinced]

Hi Thumbilina. I commend you on spending all that time replying to my posts. I haven't got time to read and respond right now, but tomorrow at work (during the quiet periods) I shall read and write my response (I've copied and pasted it all to my email). I'll try to trim down what I reply to if I can, so as to not make this an even bigger task than it already is!

[mwc]

This verse summarizes why God creates Rev. 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

God is loving and giving and He wants to share Himself with His creations.

So this "god" made an eternal torture pit for his pleasure.

 

But the next part is why I'm bothering to reply at all:

God made man in His image. God's character NEVER changes and He also designed us to be creatures of habit, GOOD habits that is. He also made His intelligent creatures with the ability to choose to do right or wrong. Before sin, man automatically did what was right but after sin man had to make conscious efforts to do what was right and his concept of right and wrong was terribly skewed. God did not totally abandon man and He provided a way of escape from death for man.

"Before sin, man automatically did what was right but after sin..."

 

If man only did what was "right" then there was no "after sin." It becomes impossible.

 

I stopped reading your posts here since you've demonstrated that your god created the place known as hell for his own pleasure and that man simply could not commit sin to begin with. You've defeated yourself.

 

mwc

[OnceConvinced]

Ok, I couldn't wait until tomorrow. I had to respond tonight.

 

OnceConvinced: "Those who believe in the supernatural are gullible.

Thumbelina: It is written: {something written by some ignorant guy from thousands of years ago}

 

Why do you quote a scripture here? Do you think that I'm going to take seriously, something written and inspired by ignorant, superstitious tribesmen? I take your bible as seriously as you would take such books as the Koran or the Baghavad Gita.

 

OnceConvinced: "There is a scientific explanation for everything."

 

Thumbelina: Maybe science can explain the reason why humans TORTURE and kill THEIR OWN KIND sooooo much while the rest the animal kingdom barely does that.They at least kill other kinds. Hmmmm (raised eyebrow), I see some kind of racist connotation to that evolutionary THEORY of origins.You have to admit that evolutionists tend to be quite vitriolic with their attacks on creationists. *Sigh* All we want are for all scientists to just state the evidences and for both sides to state that their suppositions are based on FAITH.

 

Straw man. For one thing, just because Science does not have the answer for something does not mean there is not a scientific explanation for it. Remember that in biblical times, the ignorant people who wrote it attributed almost everything to God, eg weather patterns, natural disasters, disease etc etc. We now know that these things all have natural scientific explanations. As time goes by less and less is a mystery and more and more is explained as natural. The God of the gaps is shrinking. I see no reason to believe this trend won't continue. I do not chose to say "Goddidit" just because I don't understand something. That is showing ignorance, like primitive man did.

 

As for your question, humans torture and kill their own kind for the same reason many animals do (and there are many that do, so I don't know why you're saying there isn't! Hell, male lions will eat lion cubs just so they can have sex with the mother! Are you saying that's evil? Is Satan manipulating those lions?). It is a natural instinct. Humans are just another animal, except that most of us have the ability to reason and to think about the harm our actions cause. Most of us have evolved into compassionate beings. Some will continue to remain in a primitive mindset just like the animal kingdom. It all makes so much more sense when you look at it from the POV of evolution.

 

 

OnceConvinced: And I say you are going to regret not believing in Voldemort. Because when you least expect it he is going to return and make you suffer for not following him.

 

Thumbelina: Voldemort (the devil) is going to die!

 

And it's going to be Harry Potter that kills him, I know.

 

Thumbelina: {Ridiculous justifications for God horrible acts of cruelty and genocide}

 

You can justify all the horrible stuff God does in the bible all you like. It doesn't change the fact that he is a sadistic, cruel, unforgiving, merciless tyrant. I have proven my point that God has treated mankind like scum if the book of myths, the bible is to be believed. If God had taken more care when he designed humans all this mess wouldn't have happened and God would not have needed to employ such horrible genicidal acts. If God was real and had taken some of the steps I suggested in my very first post on this thread, we would not have the mess we have now. So far you have done nothing to show how the suggestions I have made would not work. Perhaps now is the time to go back to that original post I made and try to refute my points rather than attempt to preach and quote bible verses which are meaningless to the majority of us here?

 

Thumblina:

The reason for the judgment against those disrespectful young people is explained here:"Had Elisha allowed the mockery to pass unnoticed, he would have continued to be ridiculed and reviled by the rabble, and his mission to instruct and save in a time of grave national peril might have been defeated. This one instance of terrible severity was sufficient to command respect throughout his life. For fifty years he went in and out of the gate of Bethel, and to and fro in the land, from city to city, passing through crowds of idle, rude, dissolute youth; but none mocked him or made light of his qualifications as the prophet of the Most High."

 

Oh my God, this is one of the worst and most appalling justifications I have ever heard for God's sadistic act against those children. This is just sick. This is worse than tummy rot. My God, what deluded rubbish. I just can't get over how stupid this justification is. If this was in any way shape or form the reason for this act, then that is even more proof that the God of the bible is a sick twisted fuck who in no way deserves worship. Did I say that this is a sick and twisted justification? Oh yeah, I did!

 

On the topic of rapist marrying their victims.

Thumbelia: . I betcha, those men thought twice about raping any women when they realized that they'll have to marry 'em if they did.

 

This is even more perverse than the last. And to hear this coming from a woman! What if someone brutally raped you, would you think God was fair in making you marry the scumbag? Oh my God! Ok, now I'm beginning to think the others here are right. You are a troll. No one in their right mind would ever say something like this. Have you ever heard of Poe's Law? But I guess I'm gonna reply to this stuff anyway, because I just can't resist and who knows there may be some deluded Christians reading this who agree with a lot of things you say, so I'll keep on going.

 

Hey, you know, this is great! I can go out, find the woman of my dreams, rape her and then she's all mine. Oh yeah! I wonder how many people did that back in bible times.

 

Bloody hell!

 

OnceConvinced:"... having Lot send his daughters out to be mob raped to save a couple of angels,..."

Thumbelina: This was Lot's tummy rot That stupid decision of his reflected the culture of hs time. God did not tell him to do that! That story was recorded to show what utterly stupid ideas finite humans come up with when they lean on their own understanding.

 

But of course God continued to let Lot do this horrible act. And the Angels stood by and did nothing too. What a loving God. These angels were lowlife scum bags to just let Lot do this. As they were working for God, then that makes their God a lowlife scumbag too.

 

No, this is not a story about Lot's evil. After all, why would God rescue such a horrible man who would hand over his daughters to be gang raped? That makes him worse than the people who God didn't rescue! No, he was doing exactly what God wanted him to do, that much is obvious. Once again you are simply trying to absolve God from his malevolence.

 

What we have here is a story of how women were considered objects for men to do whatever they want with. They were considered nothing but property, nothing but sex objects. I can't believe that you, a woman, would even want anything to do with a religion like this, really. Can you not see that from the bible perpective you are nothing but the property of man? Worthless? That is what your so-called God thinks of you.

 

OnceConvinced: "...stripping Job of everything he had and then having some crazy idea that giving him a new family would make up for the loss of the old one, etc etc etc. ..."

Thumbelina: Um, it was Satan that did that, God did permit it cuz the devil was accusing Job of being a timeserver. Ha! Job proved him wrong didn't he? and God told Job off!!!

 

Read the book again. Satan only did what God instructed him to do. He was God's puppet in all of this.

 

OnceConvinced: "If someone did stuff like that to you or your loved ones, would you feel you were being treated like scum?"

Thumbelina: Yeah, it's human nature; we don't have the vantage point that divinity has.That's why I need to shore up my faith now and claim those promises than God gives cuz He loves me.

 

This is a cop out and shows just how stupid many humans are to continue to worship such a horrible being. There is no justifications for the sort of acts God has done in the bible. I don't buy your argument that human's can't understand God. If God cannot impart understanding to humans, then that is a limitation on his part no ours. And I dare say you like to think you understand God. But you're not up there at that vantage point either, are you?

 

 

Thumbelina: God can resurrect people!!!

 

Have you ever seen God resurrect someone? Of course not, because it never happens. Stories from an ancient book do not amount to proof, just as stories of Voldemort and Harry Potter do not amount to truth. Stories told second hand about things like this happening in far away places are just that - stories, with no evidence to back them up. If a resurrection happened we would see it on the 6 o'clock news. There is one thing that all TV companies want. That is ratings, because ratings equal money. If resurrections were happening, you can bet they'd be broadcasting it, because ratings would go through the roof. So please don't try to use the old excuse that the media is anti-Jesus, because that's a clearly a crock.

 

Thumbelina:

Now, you do not seem to understand the biblical concept of free will. Free will has to do with WORSHIP. If you look at the bible from Genesis to Revelation you would NEVER see God forcing someone to worship Him. Forced Faith is a diabolical concept that the devil invented.

God can and do sometimes force people to physically submit to His power but He never lets them worship Him against their will. Even when that turncoat Balaam went against the Israelites, God forced Him to speak the truth but He did not force Him to remain His servant; God let HIm go (see Num.22-24). Ya know what? I think Hollywood stole this concept for the movie Liar liar; about a man not being able to lie i.e.

Anyway that's why church and state need to be separated cuz mankind should be able to follow the dictates of their conscience with regards to worship, as long as it does not infringe upon the rights of their fellow man; namely, as long as the principles of the last 6 commandments are kept.

 

Not once have I suggested that God force anyone to do anything. My very first post talked of putting mechanisms in place to protect humans from sinning. This involves similar things to pain and fear, mechanisms that God has supposedly instilled in us to protect us from physical harm. I am suggesting putting in fear and pain to protect us from spiritual harm, ie, sinning. I have also given you a practical example of how this works for me. I could never ever commit an evil act on someone because my own conscience would never allow me to. So why did God make me like that? Was he violating my freewill by doing that? Of course not, so why not make everyone with a conscience like that? Why not put in pain and fear to prevent people from sinning. Pain and fear are not violations of freewill are they?

 

My argument keeps coming back to this. There is no violation of freewill when it comes to my suggestions. Please explain how my suggestions would not possibly work. Please explain how they are tummy rot. So far you have not been able to do this. All you have done is go off on a tangent, preaching a lot of crap which is pure conjecture and your own or other's interpretation of the bible.

 

OnceConvinced:"I would not need to even pick up a gun. I could just erase the crazy guy out of existance with a command."

 

Thumbelina: God won't have to pick up a gun either. All He has to do to erase evil once and for all is to be Himself; He will unveil His glory in the presence of all, and whomever remained evil will be consumed.

 

Too little too late. A smart designer would have prevented the problem of evil before it eventuated. That is what my solutions to the whole design problem would have done. If my design plan had been instigated there would be no evil that needed consuming. But so far you have not explained how my design plan cannot work. All you have done is call it tummy rot and then followed up with your own tummy rot.

 

 

OnceConvinced:"He hardens people's hearts, (eg Pharaoah), ..."

 

Thumbelina: Ahem, Pharaoah hardened his own dang heart! {Drastic reinterpretation of scripture thanks to God not getting good translators for his supposed word, which is supposed to be the most important book ever}

 

Oh yeah, here we go, trying to change the meaning of scripture so that it no longer means what it says. As for the bible writers being adept. I don't see that. All I see is ignorance. Whether they were good writers is in no way proof of God inspiring them. And the twisting of their words is being done by you, not any great writers.

 

 

OnceConvinced:"Then pain, fear and all those other mechanisms are also a violation of freewill, so according to your rules should not exist at all. Please explain how it's a violation of freewill when it comes to spiritual danger, but it's not for physical danger? If I wish to climb up a sheer cliff face but feel fear, then my freewill is being violated by God. If I want to touch a hot element but don't for fear of being burnt, then that is a violation of freewill.

 

Thumbelina: God did not put in those mechanisms before sin happened; there was no need to.

 

Bad design. Lack of forethought. Lack of contingency.

 

Of course there was a need for it! He knew full well the mess which was about to eventuate. And you call this a God?

 

Thumbelina: Prior to sin there were no negative feelings whether physical or mental. That devil started it

 

God designed created the devil knowing full well what he was unleashing on his creation. Therefore he designed sin. HE started it. So don't go blaming the devil for this mess. It was your God's shoddy design and lack of care that created all this mess.

 

In my very first post I gave you a perfect design system that God could have used to prevent all the mess. The world would not be in the state it is today. The fact that God did not put any systems in place when he knew the ramifications of not doing it means your God was either malevolent, ignorant, apathetic, incompetent or maybe a mixture of all. We would never tolerate such lousy and horrible design in the world today.

[classicchinadoll]

well i have created beings, four of them, my children but if i had divine power to know that three of the four would end up being eternally tortured, or lets just say a lifetime of torture i simply wouldn't have kids.

[Mriana]

On the topic of rapist marrying their victims.

Thumbelia: . I betcha, those men thought twice about raping any women when they realized that they'll have to marry 'em if they did.

 

This is even more perverse than the last. And to hear this coming from a woman! What if someone brutally raped you, would you think God was fair in making you marry the scumbag? Oh my God! Ok, now I'm beginning to think the others here are right. You are a troll. No one in their right mind would ever say something like this. Have you ever heard of Poe's Law? But I guess I'm gonna reply to this stuff anyway, because I just can't resist and who knows there may be some deluded Christians reading this who agree with a lot of things you say, so I'll keep on going.

 

Hey, you know, this is great! I can go out, find the woman of my dreams, rape her and then she's all mine. Oh yeah! I wonder how many people did that back in bible times.

 

Bloody hell!

 

 

That is sick. So, I guess a father who rapes his daughter has to marry her? What daughter in her right mind would want to put herself through such a thing. It's just plain sick. Talk about Stockholm's Syndrome. Any woman who did that would be suffering seriously from the disorder.

[StevoMuso]

 

Thumbelina: Prior to sin there were no negative feelings whether physical or mental. That devil started it

 

God designed created the devil knowing full well what he was unleashing on his creation. Therefore he designed sin. HE started it. So don't go blaming the devil for this mess. It was your God's shoddy design and lack of care that created all this mess.

Many cultures teach about the "coming of age" of Humankind, when we gained the knowledge of good and evil. In most cases it is regarded as a STEP UP, not a FALL of Man. Knowledge is a good thing in most advanced cultures. It's only in some sick religions (like Christianity) that this knowledge was regarded as a step down, and these religions (especially Christianity) have spent much of their time over the centuries trying to stop the acquisition of knowledge. Think of all the libraries destroyed (by Christians during the 400s CE, the Library of Alexandria ... bastards), scientists imprisoned or executed, secular moral campaigns opposed (e.g. slavery in the USA) and so on throughout history.

 

"Fall" of Man Thumbelina? Order to chaos? More likely chaos to order as Mankind grows in knowledge.

 

I know ... we may have had this post earlier - just wanted to say it again in this context (sorry).

[Shyone]

This verse summarizes why God creates Rev. 4:11 "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

God is loving and giving and He wants to share Himself with His creations.

So this "god" made an eternal torture pit for his pleasure.

 

But the next part is why I'm bothering to reply at all:

God made man in His image. God's character NEVER changes and He also designed us to be creatures of habit, GOOD habits that is. He also made His intelligent creatures with the ability to choose to do right or wrong. Before sin, man automatically did what was right but after sin man had to make conscious efforts to do what was right and his concept of right and wrong was terribly skewed. God did not totally abandon man and He provided a way of escape from death for man.

"Before sin, man automatically did what was right but after sin..."

 

If man only did what was "right" then there was no "after sin." It becomes impossible.

 

I stopped reading your posts here since you've demonstrated that your god created the place known as hell for his own pleasure and that man simply could not commit sin to begin with. You've defeated yourself.

 

mwc

Wasn't disobeying God a sin that was committed by Adam and Eve (mythologically)?

 

And when they did that, they had no knowledge of good and evil. So how were they supposed to know?

 

Except god told them. But they had no knowledge of what was good or evil. So...

 

My head is spinning.

[centauri]

...This attitude reflects what Thumbelina wants to believe - that children go to heaven even without "earning" it.

It's a pattern that repeats itself over and over again.

If a believer wants something to be true for them, then it must be true for everyone else.

With wishful thinking all things are possible.

[Guest I Love Dog]

 

When God resurrects the wicked for their judgment; they will acknowledge that God was just in banishing them from having eternal life. However the devil will continue his habitual course of lying and deceiving and He will convince all the wicked --- some of whom will be Cain, Hitler, Pol Pot, those Popes from the dark ages, the terrorists who blew up the twin towers etc.-- to attack the New Jerusalem, the Holy City where God, the angels and the saints are and it is at this juncture that God will COMPLETELY unveil His Glory and the wicked as well as this whole polluted earth will be turned into a great ball of fire. Some beings will burn up quite quickly, others a little longer and others for a somewhat long time but eventually this world and the wicked would be turned into ashes, that will be the second death and then God will create a new Earth. See Rev.20-21 .

 

Thumbelina, I'd like you to visit this Web page:

 

http://www.deism.com/bibleorigins.htm

 

This research has been done by god believers to show others just where the holey babble originated and how it came to be and how it is just a heap of waffle made up by ignorant men.

 

Believe all the rubbish at your peril. Your mind is in jeopardy(if not already twisted and warped beyond recognition).

 

The babble is NOT the word of god. Believe it!

[StevoMuso]

Thumbelina, I'd like you to visit this Web page:

 

http://www.deism.com/bibleorigins.htm

 

This research has been done by god believers to show others just where the holey babble originated and how it came to be and how it is just a heap of waffle made up by ignorant men.

 

Believe all the rubbish at your peril. Your mind is in jeopardy(if not already twisted and warped beyond recognition).

 

The babble is NOT the word of god. Believe it!

Nice post.

 

Interesting to note that Deists claim to combine faith and reason. Their site says they believe in God but not in religion (there are many Fundies here in South Africa who claim to hate religion in favor of "just loving God" and "having a relationship with God"). Does this not qualify Deists as believers? Fundies in disguise? Any Deists out there who wish to confirm this?

 

Oooh - look what I found on their site - Deism vs Atheism.

 

This might make a cool new thread.

[Shyone]

Interesting to note that Deists claim to combine faith and reason. Their site says they believe in God but not in religion (there are many Fundies here in South Africa who claim to hate religion in favor of "just loving God" and "having a relationship with God"). Does this not qualify Deists as believers? Fundies in disguise? Any Deists out there who wish to confirm this?

 

Oooh - look what I found on their site - Deism vs Atheism.

 

This might make a cool new thread.

Oh, how I hate when a web site tries to pin me down like a butterfly and tell me what I believe. Especially when it mischaracterizes the arguments made.

 

The atheist demands that the Deist, or theist, provide evidence for the existence of God. They continually resort to logical fallacies of their own, for example, a common one is the Petitio principii (begging the question) fallacy; it goes something like this: there is no God because we find no evidence of God in nature. But is this true? No. We presently do not know enough about nature to make such a conclusion, eventually, the possibility that there is a God could be proven. The atheist has no evidence that the universe is eternal or accidental; they are assuming that scientific speculation somehow equals scientific fact. Obviously there is a great gap between speculation and fact to the rational mind.

 

Oh, lord.

 

First atheist argument: Burden of proof. Shifting the burden of proof does not prove a god.

Second: Natural explanations trump supernatural ones by Occam's Razor. In the absence of an explanation, a long history of finding natural explanations for presumed supernatural occurrences warrants the expectation and search for a natural explanation.

Third: A Theory is not just "scientific speculation." There is data behind the speculation, other known phenomena, and ongoing studies that are providing evidence.

 

Shit. Speculation. The ultimate cop out. It isn't just speculation when there is data to support it.

 

Is there evidence for a god? What? Design? Existence? Something else equally inane?

 

I'm going to stop here instead of writing a book, but this burns me up.

 

Atheism is a default position, and the burden of proof is on the believers in Zeus, Thor, Baal, El or Yahweh to provide some convincing reason for believing.

 

And the Iliad won't do.