Faith From Others

[agjohnson]

Here is an email sent to me from my former pastor and my response. A little background; my father in law passed away a year and a half ago after an excruciating battle with cancer in his nervous system. He was a devout Christian. I just wanted to get some other people's perspective on my pastor's email and my response.

 

Don't worry, the subject of Tom's death is not a sensitive issue for me. I miss him quite a bit and it certainly was a major blow during his illness and after his death, but I have been able to move on and move forward.

 

Tom was certainly a man of great faith and character, as is my father. Both are men that I highly respect. Tom was a devout Christian, my father is a devout atheist.

 

What a poor man I would be if I relied on others for my faith. I know great people of many faiths and one of the best men I know is Hindu. If I relied on others for my faith I would be like a ship without a rudder, drawn to whomever was the most devout person and had the greatest character. Faith through others is the way cults are born and even the greatest of men believe crazy things.

 

Kurt wrote:

Hi Aaron,

 

I appreciate the "seeking" that you've done and the research to find the answers you need. I want to ask you to look at faith from an angle that may be a little sensitive.

When I look at the story of Timothy in the Bible, I see a man who's faith was affected and developed through a close relationship in his life. Paul speaks to him about this in 2Timothy 1:5I have been reminded of your sincere faith, which first lived in your grandmother Lois and in your mother Eunice and, I am persuaded, now lives in you also."

 

Timothy seemed to have faith that he drew from his mother and grandmother. My question is about someone that I know was probably very dear to you, your Father-In-Law, Tom. I got to know him pretty well and saw a faith that was alive and strong. A faith that was also based on well thought out revelation that he had experienced.

 

If Timothy could observe and draw from faith from his mother and grandmother, my question is whether you saw that faith in Tom and could you find any of the answers in a man who lived it out, like him? I'm reading the book he wrote about our founding fathers. I find in there, some of the best evidence, that our country was built upon men of faith, who truly lived what they believe and experienced the grace of God to establish a nation under God. I would think, even in reading that, that a man could discover something that would be life-changing.

 

It's just a thought and I know that we all miss him so much, so I apologize if this is too sensitive. I just think Tom was a great man to look up to in his faith, even until the end.

[Shyone]

What a poor man I would be if I relied on others for my faith. I know great people of many faiths and one of the best men I know is Hindu. If I relied on others for my faith I would be like a ship without a rudder, drawn to whomever was the most devout person and had the greatest character. Faith through others is the way cults are born and even the greatest of men believe crazy things.

 

I thought this was brilliant, but it will pass right over the head of your pastor.

 

Your pastor, of course, has the cultural heritage of an American Christian, so "relying on another's faith" would only mean the other Christians around (since there aren't very many devout Muslims or Hindus).

 

I probably would have yanked on his chain and said that you knew a devout Muslim who thought the men that flew into the WTC were men of great faith.

 

Nah, maybe not.

[Brakeman]

Uzzah of 2cd Samuel6:6-8 Was a righteous man of faith that god smote and sent to hell because he dared save the arc of the covenant from crashing to the ground, reflexively.

So whether or not god really saves you would be just up to his whim at the moment right?

How does the pastor know that god didn't smite your father in law for touching something or just being in the wrong place?

[HRDWarrior]

I think your response is perfect, and so very, very true. What poor excuses we would be if our "faith" was only that of someone else...and like you pointed out, there are faithful of all religions (or the lack thereof) who are amazing people, all of whom we can learn from, irregardless of their religion.

[agjohnson]

Here is his "response"

 

Hi Aaron,

 

You're right. You do have to own your faith. Faith without works is dead though, and Tom's faith was shown by his works.

 

One of the things I've observed in people who turn from their faith, is that the lure of sin is a major reason. People love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. Is it possible, that the lifestyle of a Christian is just something you don't want to live, because sin is just too fun?

 

Just a thought.

 

Thanks,

 

I can't figure out if I want to respond snidely, sarcastically, honestly, or what. I mean really, THIS is his response?

[Loren]

What a poor man I would be if I relied on others for my faith. I know great people of many faiths and one of the best men I know is Hindu. If I relied on others for my faith I would be like a ship without a rudder, drawn to whomever was the most devout person and had the greatest character. Faith through others is the way cults are born and even the greatest of men believe crazy things.

 

I thought this was brilliant, but it will pass right over the head of your pastor.

It already did. He went right by it without actually seeing it. I think that might well be indicative of what agjohnson can expect in future interchanges.

 

You can't really communicate with someone who doesn't care enough about you to pay attention to what you say.

[Shyone]

Here is his "response"

 

Hi Aaron,

 

You're right. You do have to own your faith. Faith without works is dead though, and Tom's faith was shown by his works.

 

One of the things I've observed in people who turn from their faith, is that the lure of sin is a major reason. People love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. Is it possible, that the lifestyle of a Christian is just something you don't want to live, because sin is just too fun?

 

Just a thought.

 

Thanks,

 

I can't figure out if I want to respond snidely, sarcastically, honestly, or what. I mean really, THIS is his response?

My first response was to say to myself, "Oh, Lord!" "The lure of sin." What a phrase, and how absolutely wrong. I suppose the reason he doesn't believe in Zeus is because of the Lure of Sin.

 

Anti-Zeus people are into darkness and evil. Right.

[Loren]

Here is his "response"

 

Hi Aaron,

 

You're right. You do have to own your faith. Faith without works is dead though, and Tom's faith was shown by his works.

"Although it is said that faith can move mountains, experience shows that dynamite works better."

~Anon.

 

One of the things I've observed in people who turn from their faith, is that the lure of sin is a major reason. People love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil.

Where to start, where to start?

 

Response 1. "I think you need to get out more."

 

Response 2. "Are you seriously telling me that in your experience as a pastor, that you've seen in your own congregation, a substantial number of people who Jesus himself has failed to transform? In the body of believers for which you are responsible??? I can't tell whether your statement is an accusation or a confession!"

Is it possible, that the lifestyle of a Christian is just something you don't want to live, because sin is just too fun?

 

Just a thought.

 

Thanks,

"I suppose it's possible, in the same sense that it's possible that the real reason that that, 'substantial' number of souls were lost to eternal damnation was that you, as the spiritual leader responsible for their coming to Jesus and keeping them there, didn't do enough work to make your own faith live: The work that God commanded and ordained you to do to keep them there.

 

It's as possible as the possibility that on judgment day, you will be held accountable for the damnation of those souls by a God who is furious with you for the same kind of malfeasance and professional incompetence as a financial manager who doesn't pay the bills even though he has an infinite amount of money available.

 

It's as possible as the possibility that the real reason those people left is that you are not actually saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but only think you are, with the fact that those souls left Jesus on your watch being solid evidence of that.

 

Actually, on second thought, it's far, far less possible that I left in order to sin than it's possible that you'll be facing exactly what I described above, if the doctrines you teach are anywhere near true. So I guess it's not possible in the same sense.

 

Just a thought."

 

I can't figure out if I want to respond snidely, sarcastically, honestly, or what. I mean really, THIS is his response?

 

Sorry, AG. I opted for snide, since his response was so lacking in the basic respect for people required to pay minimal attention to what they do and why, and so self-serving, smug, condescending and self-congratulatory at your expense that it just rubbed me the wrong way. It could just be the mood I'm in this morning.

 

On the other hand, is it possible that he got that reaction from because he let his true colors show?

 

Just a thought.

 

(Where's the damn 'vomit' emoticon when I need it!?)

[HRDWarrior]

Wow....his response just goes to show his ignorance. My response would probably depend on how close I was to this person...if it was my last pastor contacting me at this point, I'd probably go something along this line:

 

"It's painfully apparent that you have no clue as to why I left. You have closed your ears to all I have said, and it is obvious that this conversation is accomplishing nothing. If you are ignorant enough to believe that is why people leave christianity, then you may want to seriously reconsider what you do for a living. The idea that people leave christianity for "a life of sin" is one of the most idiotic responses (albeit one of the most common) that christians cling to. Perhaps it is out of fear of having to admit that christianity is not as clear cut as you would like to believe, perhaps it is out of fear of losing their own faith, but whatever the reason, in my experience, few people leave this religion for that reason.

 

Do you not believe in Allah in order to live a life of sin? Do you not believe that Zeus is real because you just can't wait to get out there and fornicate against his rules? You must be a bit of a masochist then to not believe in Santa Claus since all he ever did was bring you gifts....or, as is probably the case, do you not believe in these entities because you find their doctrine, theology, and evidence to be completely and utterly lacking? I would guess that is most likely the reason why you choose not to believe in them. For me, christianity is exactly the same as trying to believe in Santa Claus.

 

If you choose to stick your head in the sand and pretend I left "for sin" I obviously cannot stop you. But no matter what, I would challenge you to seriously consider why people really leave christianity, especially after years of faithful service.

 

I bear you no ill will, but this is proving to be a waste of my time. If this conversation continues along this vein, then I will end it. If you have serious questions, and can treat me like the adult I am, then you are free to ask, and I will answer to the best of my ability. If you continue to attack me, that will be the end of this."

 

 

Just my $.02 worth!

[agjohnson]

Here is my response:

 

I would be the most questionable source to ask about judging my own morality or immorality, but I will answer and you can decide whether you want to take it at face value or not.

 

I began to question my faith nearly a year ago now. For many months I just simply refused to allow myself to think along those lines. When I realized my faith was in crisis, I dove into the church and into study of the Bible. For months I continued to agonize about my waning faith. I am very much a reluctant atheist and yet moral compass has hardly shifted all this time. The most major change in my morality is that I now swear on rare occasion and don't feel guilty (not that I swear more or less frequently).

 

Your first email talked about finding faith through others and I pointed out the catastrophic consequences that can bring. This email is even more simple and debasing (though I do have it give you credit, it is very honest and direct). I'm wondering if you are asking these questions because it helps you avoid a much more uncomfortable thought: That someone can reject Christianity based solely on its merits.

 

Perhaps in the past you have met with people with questions for whom platitudes were enough, or perhaps you have met with people who left the faith for the ridiculous reason that they found it inconvenient. I do not fall into either of those categories.

 

I wonder if this guy has ever run into someone who has taken their faith or lack thereof seriously before. It's as if he believes his previous emails are of such insight that he can't fathom someone not believing.

[★ Citsonga ★]

This pastor seems to have no clue whatsoever. To his credit, though, I must admit that I used to think along similar lines; it's what christians are taught.

 

If he reiterates his accusation of leaving for a life of sin, then I'd recommend replying along similar lines to HRDWarrior's last post, which had some really good points.

[Brakeman]

What kind of sin can cause you to change beliefs?

[Purple]

What kind of sin can cause you to change beliefs?

 

The sin of disbelief?

[ClaraOlive]

I'd assume that he's scared to really investigate why someone would want to leave Christianity. Perhaps if your father in law, who you say was a good person, was representative of Christians in his church, then he actually does believe that Christians are the most moral people with the best lifestyle and the most kindness and goodness. I expect that he'll stop corresponding with you pretty soon because he won't want to corrupt his beliefs.

 

In that light, if you want to continue emailing at all instead of just dropping the whole thing, I wouldn't be snarky, but would continue in the same line as when you explained that if your father in law was an inspiration toward an ethical and good life, then the similarly good lives of your atheist father and Hindu friend must also be considered. I'd go into a few details about similarities and reasons that you respect them, despite their differences in metaphysical belief. The burden will fall on the pastor to explain what makes the ethical Christian different than the ethical person of any belief.

[southjerseygirl36]

What a poor man I would be if I relied on others for my faith. I know great people of many faiths and one of the best men I know is Hindu. If I relied on others for my faith I would be like a ship without a rudder, drawn to whomever was the most devout person and had the greatest character. Faith through others is the way cults are born and even the greatest of men believe crazy things.

 

I thought this was brilliant, but it will pass right over the head of your pastor.

It already did. He went right by it without actually seeing it. I think that might well be indicative of what agjohnson can expect in future interchanges.

 

You can't really communicate with someone who doesn't care enough about you to pay attention to what you say.

 

Your pastor is spiritually dead. It is all about his religion over the realities of what good is. These people have confused me terribly in the past. I would like the type of faith where I am not confused. Jesus may be the only way, but Christianity is not. God loves the good in all people. Chritians have become so fundie like because the pastors know the people will react to brainwashing nad fear and the OCD like people will always be around to have a steady income and following. I am not finding anyone around that is too genuine. I went to 2 Methodist church services today and when they were praying for the sick, there was no passion. It was like "Lord these poeple are suffering. Help them." Now the pentocostals know how to pray for the sick but they are extreme and will control you. There is too much mindcontrol going on the in the churches. I hope God has mercy on us for our confusion because we refuse to go. I think that it is God telling us not to go. They are playing with our minds too often.

[southjerseygirl36]

What a poor man I would be if I relied on others for my faith. I know great people of many faiths and one of the best men I know is Hindu. If I relied on others for my faith I would be like a ship without a rudder, drawn to whomever was the most devout person and had the greatest character. Faith through others is the way cults are born and even the greatest of men believe crazy things.

 

I thought this was brilliant, but it will pass right over the head of your pastor.

It already did. He went right by it without actually seeing it. I think that might well be indicative of what agjohnson can expect in future interchanges.

 

You can't really communicate with someone who doesn't care enough about you to pay attention to what you say.

[southjerseygirl36]

Had trouble posting. ooops. Yes, I agree with the abover post.

[OnceConvinced]

Oh God, leaving Christianity just to be able to sin? Absurd. It would be better to remain a Christian, keep on sinning then ask for forgiveness on a regular basis. After all that's what Christians do and they are no more moral than anybody else. I for one would rather go to Heaven than go around sinning.

[mwc]

Here is his "response"

Is it possible, that the lifestyle of a Christian is just something you don't want to live, because sin is just too fun?

Oh noes Mr. Preacherman. You figured us out. We've stopped be the xians since we wanted to try out this thing called "sin." Everyone knows that the xians just can't do the "sinnin'" and damned if it just doesn't look way too fun to keeps aways from likes all thems others xians manages to do all 24/7's and all. If only there's was a ways to be a xians and tries out the "sins" too. Damn it all. Why must theys be mutually exclusive?!?!?! If only we wasn't so stupids and thinks only with our bad and nasty parts.

 

mwc

[agjohnson]

I'll post my response and his latest email in just a little bit.

[Petrel]

Here is his "response"

 

Hi Aaron,

 

You're right. You do have to own your faith. Faith without works is dead though, and Tom's faith was shown by his works.

 

One of the things I've observed in people who turn from their faith, is that the lure of sin is a major reason. People love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. Is it possible, that the lifestyle of a Christian is just something you don't want to live, because sin is just too fun?

 

Just a thought.

 

Thanks,

 

I can't figure out if I want to respond snidely, sarcastically, honestly, or what. I mean really, THIS is his response?

I'm sorry, but:

 

 

I promise I won't do it again!

 

Sounds like you hit a nerve! I can't advise you because I don't even know what I would do. Probably depends on how much you're interested in staying on speaking terms, and whether you're interested in getting riled up over it.

[Bongo]

you should just send him this thread

[FourDogBrewing]

That preacher seems like a simpleton.

 

Lets see .... sinning = fun, faith = boredom ....

 

He is not even aware enough and introspective enough to realize what kind of a journey people like us take.