quickrace89 Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 If God gave us the ability, drive and desire to question, discover, and learn - gave us this hunger for knowledge - why would he then put us in an afterlife where there's nothing to learn, no mysteries, and no challenges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valkyrie0010 Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 We are supposed to be satisfied with heaven Welcome to E-xc by the way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickrace89 Posted March 14, 2010 Author Share Posted March 14, 2010 We are supposed to be satisfied with heaven Welcome to E-xc by the way But if that's the case, why give us a hunger that heaven won't satisfy by way of its nature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Because according to the bible the desire for knowledge is an evil sin which you have to overcome, you should just be happy with God. Not certain how liberal Christians interpret it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickrace89 Posted March 14, 2010 Author Share Posted March 14, 2010 Because according to the bible the desire for knowledge is an evil sin which you have to overcome, you should just be happy with God. Not certain how liberal Christians interpret it. Meh, some of them are scientists, so I'm assuming they're fine with expansion of knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagnarus Posted March 14, 2010 Share Posted March 14, 2010 Because according to the bible the desire for knowledge is an evil sin which you have to overcome, you should just be happy with God. Not certain how liberal Christians interpret it. Meh, some of them are scientists, so I'm assuming they're fine with expansion of knowledge. Even the ones at the Creation Institute? But seriously, there are Christians who think God is OK with gays and women having sex outside of marriage (I don't think the bible is actually that clear on male promiscuity), that doesn't change the fact that the first mention of Knowledge in the bible is synonymous with man getting kicked out of the Garden of Eden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skepticalme Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 If God gave us the ability, drive and desire to question, discover, and learn - gave us this hunger for knowledge - why would he then put us in an afterlife where there's nothing to learn, no mysteries, and no challenges? I agree. Heaven doesn't sound that appealing to me. It sounds like heaven would strip away everything that makes us human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrel Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 It sounds like heaven would strip away everything that makes us human. I think that's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 If God gave us the ability, drive and desire to question, discover, and learn - gave us this hunger for knowledge - why would he then put us in an afterlife where there's nothing to learn, no mysteries, and no challenges? Yup. And don't forget free will. Supposedly evil is accepted by God because he had to give us free will. So in some sense, free will is something really, really good, it compensates for all evil. But then, poof, God takes it away in heaven, no free will. Oh, but the answer is: "I Heaven we won't do evil because we don't want to." So why didn't God do the same thing here from start to avoid evil? Is Heaven a better design than this "perfect" design we're (supposedly) currently in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvless Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 When I was little, lets say about eight or nine years old, I remembered telling my Dad that I didn't want to go to Heaven. I explained to him that everything being perfect forever would be boring. I didn't realize how much truth there was to that statement until recently when I remembered it. There would be no thrills, no excitement, no victory over challenges etc. I will take this life any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 If God gave us the ability, drive and desire to question, discover, and learn - gave us this hunger for knowledge - why would he then put us in an afterlife where there's nothing to learn, no mysteries, and no challenges? Is that the established theology of heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvless Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 From my understanding, heaven was a place where we would worship god forever and bask in his presence. That was supposed to be enough I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 I think the hope for heaven symbolizes the human desire to be done with a sense of estrangement in the world and to be united completely with the Ultimate. Heaven symbolizes what we all want when we want to find rest from the daily and existential crises that press down upon and beleaguer us. I don't think heaven was meant to be conceptualized in detail. I don't know when the details started becoming a problem for believers. I know I wrestled with the issues raised here off and on from time to time. I think in religion, heaven is more like a carrot stick dangled by the shaming mechanism of the church. The threat of not having heaven and thus not having the coveted fulfillment of the heart's desire is a powerful tactic for coercing conformity to church declarations and proclamations. When pondering issues of religion, I find it best not to ponder the mythology in detail, but to follow the money and parse the power structure. All relevant questions about heaven can be answered by considering how the doctrine supports and perpetuates the power structure of a religion. Does that make me a jaded cynic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 If God gave us the ability, drive and desire to question, discover, and learn - gave us this hunger for knowledge - why would he then put us in an afterlife where there's nothing to learn, no mysteries, and no challenges? Yup. And don't forget free will. Supposedly evil is accepted by God because he had to give us free will. So in some sense, free will is something really, really good, it compensates for all evil. But then, poof, God takes it away in heaven, no free will. Oh, but the answer is: "I Heaven we won't do evil because we don't want to." So why didn't God do the same thing here from start to avoid evil? Is Heaven a better design than this "perfect" design we're (supposedly) currently in? I think the various writers of the New Testament were very concerned about maintaining power and control over believers. They attempted to deflect the issues of freewill and the natural drives, questioning, and abilities of humans for a purpose. They wanted to draw the believers' minds away from thinking about this and towards obedience to God's Will, where happiness and completeness are (supposedly). So the story goes, that God requires mindless, dependent obedience in exchange for eternal life. It's hard to control people with wills of their own, and easy to blame them for independent choice leading to sin/evil/destruction. Freewill is the excuse to condemn, since our choices are independent of God and therefore evil. Only robots are allowed in heaven. It's a mind-numbing story, with a Stepford Wives ending. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 I think the hope for heaven symbolizes the human desire to be done with a sense of estrangement in the world and to be united completely with the Ultimate. Heaven symbolizes what we all want when we want to find rest from the daily and existential crises that press down upon and beleaguer us. I don't think heaven was meant to be conceptualized in detail. I don't know when the details started becoming a problem for believers. I know I wrestled with the issues raised here off and on from time to time. I think in religion, heaven is more like a carrot stick dangled by the shaming mechanism of the church. The threat of not having heaven and thus not having the coveted fulfillment of the heart's desire is a powerful tactic for coercing conformity to church declarations and proclamations. When pondering issues of religion, I find it best not to ponder the mythology in detail, but to follow the money and parse the power structure. All relevant questions about heaven can be answered by considering how the doctrine supports and perpetuates the power structure of a religion. Does that make me a jaded cynic? Smokin' post, Oddbird. My religious aunt told me before she died that it would be "nice to go to a place without conflict, without greed, without any of the things that take away from one human so another can have more". However, as nice as that sounds, I still want my own starship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerplunk Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 If God gave us the ability, drive and desire to question, discover, and learn - gave us this hunger for knowledge - why would he then put us in an afterlife where there's nothing to learn, no mysteries, and no challenges? That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all. All these desires have a final end in the satisfaction of those desires. The desires are only good insofar as they direct us to an end. Heaven wouldn't be that heavenly, if those desires remained unsatisfied. -Kerplunk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 If God gave us the ability, drive and desire to question, discover, and learn - gave us this hunger for knowledge - why would he then put us in an afterlife where there's nothing to learn, no mysteries, and no challenges? That doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all. All these desires have a final end in the satisfaction of those desires. The desires are only good insofar as they direct us to an end. Heaven wouldn't be that heavenly, if those desires remained unsatisfied. -Kerplunk Sure. But then why did God create us? Was it to create a being with wishes, free will, desire, hope, love, and all that, yet when it comes to the final end, all those things are unwanted side-effects? Put it this way, if God wanted a certain kind of humans--a companion for heaven--which would have certain abilities and faculties, but when it's time to be a companion to God, all those abilities and faculties are not wanted by God. Doesn't it strike you as odd? God wanting one thing, but then he wants another thing instead? Did he create us wrong the first time around, or is Heaven something completely different than what we think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerplunk Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 If God gave us the ability, drive and desire to question, discover, and learn - gave us this hunger for knowledge - why would he then put us in an afterlife where there's nothing to learn, no mysteries, and no challenges? Yup. And don't forget free will. Supposedly evil is accepted by God because he had to give us free will. So in some sense, free will is something really, really good, it compensates for all evil. But then, poof, God takes it away in heaven, no free will. Oh, but the answer is: "I Heaven we won't do evil because we don't want to." So why didn't God do the same thing here from start to avoid evil? Is Heaven a better design than this "perfect" design we're (supposedly) currently in? Since when is there no free will in Heaven? I think there is a confusion about free will and license. At least within the Thomistic-Franciscan dialogue there has been a question whether happiness once attained could be lost. Francis, having such a deep respect for human free will, maintained that it was possible for a person to enjoy the splendors of Heaven and subsequently reject it. Thomas, however, stated that the joy experienced in Heaven would be so great that it would not be possible for a person to imagine rejecting said happiness. Nevertheless, they both maintained that free will exists in Heaven. -Kerplunk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Doesn't it strike you as odd? God wanting one thing, but then he wants another thing instead? Did he create us wrong the first time around, or is Heaven something completely different than what we think? I would suspect the latter. If we are to go with the God concept it is more likely that the misunderstanding would be on the human end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Since when is there no free will in Heaven? I think there is a confusion about free will and license. At least within the Thomistic-Franciscan dialogue there has been a question whether happiness once attained could be lost. Francis, having such a deep respect for human free will, maintained that it was possible for a person to enjoy the splendors of Heaven and subsequently reject it. Thomas, however, stated that the joy experienced in Heaven would be so great that it would not be possible for a person to imagine rejecting said happiness. Nevertheless, they both maintained that free will exists in Heaven. Okay. I guess I have been misinformed then. So you're saying that theoretically humans could reject Heaven when they're there, but they won't because they're so incredible happy and satisfied? Why can't God give that to humans right now? And what about evil? Why is free will so important now, especially in contrast with evil? Do the "winners" of the Heavenly ticket really deserve to go there? And why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Since when is there no free will in Heaven? I think there is a confusion about free will and license. At least within the Thomistic-Franciscan dialogue there has been a question whether happiness once attained could be lost. Francis, having such a deep respect for human free will, maintained that it was possible for a person to enjoy the splendors of Heaven and subsequently reject it. Thomas, however, stated that the joy experienced in Heaven would be so great that it would not be possible for a person to imagine rejecting said happiness. Nevertheless, they both maintained that free will exists in Heaven. Okay. I guess I have been misinformed then. So you're saying that theoretically humans could reject Heaven when they're there, but they won't because they're so incredible happy and satisfied? Why can't God give that to humans right now? And what about evil? Why is free will so important now, especially in contrast with evil? Do the "winners" of the Heavenly ticket really deserve to go there? And why? I wonder if Kerplunk envisions a heaven where someone could sin. Perhaps fondle some angel's wings, or get bored and wander off to see what the heck God meant when he said to stay away from some fruit tree... Or rebel, as Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels did... Would a person in heaven be liable to be sent to hell? If so, then wouldn't fear be the only motive for "behaving" in heaven? Just like Christians want to instill fear of Hell while people are alive? May as well get it over with now. Kerplunk said, "Thomas, however, stated that the joy experienced in Heaven would be so great that it would not be possible for a person to imagine rejecting said happiness." How does Thomas know, I wonder? Did he, perhaps, read that in a book somewhere? Or did he just pull that out of his ass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The-Captain Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Would a person in heaven be liable to be sent to hell? If so, then wouldn't fear be the only motive for "behaving" in heaven? Just like Christians want to instill fear of Hell while people are alive? Is fear the only reason that people behave on Earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Would a person in heaven be liable to be sent to hell? If so, then wouldn't fear be the only motive for "behaving" in heaven? Just like Christians want to instill fear of Hell while people are alive? Is fear the only reason that people behave on Earth? To read what the Christians write, the answer might well be yes - so they claim. Morality, for me, exists independently of any post-mortem concerns. I do have fear - fear of imprisonment, ostracism, loss of my job, wife and friends, so I can't say that fear isn't a motivator for good behavior, although I also value the respect of my friends, the standard of living I have, and the prospect of a future that will be enjoyable. If, however, one claims to have an afterlife free of such fears, but one is in danger of losing their privileges by behaving badly (assuming they have free will), then fear would be a significant part of life in Heaven. The consequences would be potentially much worse than whatever punishments I fear in life. This means an eternity of fear of infinite torture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Would a person in heaven be liable to be sent to hell? If so, then wouldn't fear be the only motive for "behaving" in heaven? Just like Christians want to instill fear of Hell while people are alive? That's a good question. Imagine that everyone is so extremely happy to go to Heaven. But what happens after 1 trillion years? Will everyone be as satisfied still? Or perhaps monotony finally kicks in and ennui is at an extreme high? Perhaps someone decides to pull a prank on God and curse him and the Holy Spirit. What would happen? Did he, perhaps, read that in a book somewhere? Or did he just pull that out of his ass? Usually, that's the place where they find the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerplunk Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Since when is there no free will in Heaven? I think there is a confusion about free will and license. At least within the Thomistic-Franciscan dialogue there has been a question whether happiness once attained could be lost. Francis, having such a deep respect for human free will, maintained that it was possible for a person to enjoy the splendors of Heaven and subsequently reject it. Thomas, however, stated that the joy experienced in Heaven would be so great that it would not be possible for a person to imagine rejecting said happiness. Nevertheless, they both maintained that free will exists in Heaven. Okay. I guess I have been misinformed then. So you're saying that theoretically humans could reject Heaven when they're there, but they won't because they're so incredible happy and satisfied? Why can't God give that to humans right now? And what about evil? Why is free will so important now, especially in contrast with evil? Do the "winners" of the Heavenly ticket really deserve to go there? And why? No, the "winners" of the Heavenly ticket don't deserve Heaven, that would fall into a sort of Pelagian heresy. Man cannot earn his way to Heaven on his own merit. I am still unsure of the question at hand. -Kerplunk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts