Adam's Sin

[oddbird1963]

 

 

Look it was a bad call and judgement I made, ok? I said my apologies and asked to close the thread. End of story.

 

 

. . .

 

 

Im just reposting this again...because after I posted it, people either didnt see it or chose to ignore it and yet the thread has still gone on. I ask for no special treatment on this site. I already said I made a bad call and judgement in posting this. It wasn't a dishonest attempt at evangelising. For some stupid reason I was reading it and just thought I would like to get other's opinions of it. Ok, I was wrong, and I apologise. End of story. Close the thread if you want to moderators.

But Kathlene, you got what you asked for. Lots of opinions, clear and passionate. I don't understand why you are apologizing or why you are asking for the thread to be closed.

 

Actually you do this forum a service by showing readers who may not be familiar with Max Lucado and other authors like him.

 

Now, ex-Christians or "Non-X, Non-Exers" can understand how talented Christians can use emotional appeals to cover-up irrationality and inanity.

 

I know this is not the service you intended to deliver, but it is very useful nonetheless.

 

I just don't understand the martyr complex language of "I apologize . . . I didn't mean to offend . . . and please close the post." I wonder if maybe you did halfway expect ol' Max's lines to be persuasive to us.

 

But anyway, never be ashamed to share what you want, but never be surprised if people react to it in ways you don't expect.

[Bob Rectenwald]

So, Believer, you should realize by now that nobody in this group is going to find that stuff convincing. For one, they've already heard it and decided against it. But, more importantly, even within Christian circles, Max Lucado is considered milquetoast, mamby-pamby stuff. When I converted to Christianity, there was about a week where I found Lucado to be inspiring. Then I matured a bit, started reading the Bible, grew "spiritually" beyond the Jesus-junk and religious kitsch that could be purchased off the rack at my local Family Bookstore. I went to college, studied Greek and Hebrew and theology, and realized that so much of that stuff is a part of the disease that Christianity suffers from in its current incarnation as an expression of American Consumerism. Max Lucado is the Christian version of Deepak Chopra. Even if something he says is accurate from the perspective of the New Testament, the genre he belongs to is as enlightening and as substantive as what you'll find on the Disney channel. If I were a Christian, I would be embarrassed for you. Reading Max Lucado as a mature Christian would be like a college student carrying around a backpack full of "I Can Read" books.

 

Have you ever read Augustine? Athanasius? Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians? Karl Barth's "the Humanity of God"? Don't waste your time on this Max Lucado crap--it's not good for Christians to read, and it's certainly not going to be convincing to non-Christians. Max Lucado is to the world of thought what Thomas Kinkade is to the world of art. And that's being generous.

 

I'm trying to think of another analogy, but I can't, but really--don't waste your time reading him, and don't bother offering this childish nonsense up for adults to consider. It's beneath you, and certainly beneath us.

[Ouroboros]

Welcome Bob!

 

Awesome post.

[Legion]

Welcome Bob!

 

Awesome post.

Agreed. And welcome to ex-C Bob.

[Phanta]

Kathlene is a human being, and, overall, a decent one. Kathlene is a pretty average example of the human race in the thinking, feeling, and behaving departments. Most people here are pretty average and unspecial in the thinking and feeling and behaving departments.

 

Phanta

[bdp]

Phanta -

 

[Phanta]

I just don't understand the martyr complex language of "I apologize . . . I didn't mean to offend . . . and please close the post." I wonder if maybe you did halfway expect ol' Max's lines to be persuasive to us.

 

I do the same thing. I want to debate, learn, explore ideas and opinions, but if things get heated I pull back hastily and take responsibility for the escalation wholly on myself. In my case, historically, the aggressors in my childhood were incapable of taking any responsibility for their part in escalating an interaction, so I am well-trained in jumping to take all the blame as I retreat.

 

Knowing a bit about Kathlene's painful upbringing, I reckon similar interactions with key adults in her childhood turned her out this way.

 

Phanta

[Sconnor]

Here's a better re-telling of the Genesis story by Michael Shermer; keeping goof-ball creationist in mind -- tongue planted firmly in cheek.

 

Genesis Revisited: A Scientific Creation Story by Michael Shermer

 

In the beginning — specifically on October 23, 4004 B.C., at noon — out of quantum foam fluctuation God created the Big Bang. The bang was followed by cosmological inflation. God saw that the Big Bang was very big, too big for creatures that could worship him, so He created the earth. And darkness was upon the face of the deep, so He commanded hydrogen atoms (which He created out of Quarks and other subatomic goodies) to fuse and become helium atoms and in the process release energy in the form of light. And the light maker he called the sun, and the process He called fusion. And He saw the light was good because now He could see what he was doing. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

 

And God said, Let there be lots of fusion light makers in the sky. Some of these fusion makers appear to be more than 4,004 light years from Earth. In fact, some of the fusion makers He grouped into collections He called galaxies, and these appeared to be millions and even billions of light years from Earth, so He created “tired light” — light that slows down through space — so that the 4004 B.C. creation myth might be preserved. And created He many wondrous splendors, including Red Giants, White Dwarfs, Quasars, Pulsars, Nova and Supernova, Worm Holes, and even Black Holes out of which nothing can escape. But since God cannot be constrained by nothing (can God make a planet so big that he could not lift it?), He created Hawking radiation through which information can escape from Black Holes. This made God even more tired than tired light, and the evening and the morning were the second day.

 

And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the continents drift apart by plate tectonics. He decreed sea floor spreading would create zones of emergence, and He caused subduction zones to build mountains and cause earthquakes. In weak points in the crust God created volcanic islands, where the next day He would place organisms that were similar to but different from their relatives on the continents, so that still later created creatures called humans would mistake them for evolved descendants. And in the land God placed fossil fuels, natural gas, and other natural resources for humans to exploit, but not until after Day Six. And the evening and the morning were the third day.

 

And God saw that the land was lonely, so He created animals bearing their own kind, declaring Thou shalt not evolve into new species, and thy equilibrium shall not be punctuated. And God placed into the land’s strata, fossils that appeared older than 4004 B.C. And the sequence resembled descent with modification. And the evening and morning were the fourth day.

 

And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that hath life, the fishes. And God created great whales whose skeletal structure and physiology were homologous with the land mammals he would create later that day. Since this caused confusion in the valley of the shadow of doubt God brought forth abundantly all creatures, great and small, declaring that microevolution was permitted, but not macroevolution. And God said, “Natura non facit saltum” — Nature shall not make leaps. And the evening and morning were the fifth day.

 

And God created the pongidids and hominids with 98 percent genetic similarity, naming two of them Adam and Eve, who were anatomically fully modern humans. In the book in which God explained how He did all this, in chapter one He said he created Adam and Eve together out of the dust at the same time, but in chapter two He said He created Adam first, then later created Eve out of one of Adam’s ribs. This caused further confusion in the valley of the shadow of doubt, so God created Bible scholars and theologians to argue the point.

 

And in the ground placed He in abundance teeth, jaws, skulls, and pelvises of transitional fossils from pre-Adamite creatures. One he chose as his special creation He named Lucy. And God realized this was confusing, so he created paleoanthropologists to sort it out. And just as He was finishing up the loose ends of the creation God realized that Adam’s immediate descendants who lived as farmers and herders would not understand inflationary cosmology, global general relativity, quantum mechanics, astrophysics, biochemistry, paleontology, population genetics, and evolutionary theory, so He created creation myths. But there were so many creation stories throughout the land that God realized this too was confusing, so he created anthropologists, folklorists, and mythologists to settle the issue.

 

By now the valley of the shadow of doubt was overrunneth with skepticism, so God became angry, so angry that God lost His temper and cursed the first humans, telling them to go forth and multiply (but not in those words). They took God literally and 6,000 years later there are six billion humans. And the evening and morning were the sixth day.

 

By now God was tired, so God said, “Thank me its Friday,” and He made the weekend. It was a good idea.

http://www.michaelshermer.com/2001/12/genesis-revisited/

 

--S.

[agnosticator]

Wise words. How about: "Love your enemies...from a distance."

 

...with a 30 foot pole and some mace!

[agnosticator]

I think the gods are selfish. I think they're rude. I think they're irresponsible. I think they should get it together. Because sooner or later, they will have to kill us, or we will become much, much, more than they are, or ever could be.

 

I think many of us humans are much more than the gods can be. Like Hans The Snake Man-Ouroboros says, while chasing and biting his tail like one of my dogs used to do:

 

"We are god's eyes, ears, nose, butt, , and mind." We create and destroy, for we are the god's expressive detail men/women. The gods created us so that we could live as they could only wish to live.

[Tabula Rasa]

Kathlene, I won't add extra critique, but I have a suggestion.

 

If you do believe there has to be some sort of divine force, I think you can do much better than Christianity, with it's cranky abusive god Yahweh.

 

I suggest becoming a Wiccan. All the spirituality, with none of the guilt. And if you'd prefer to be a solitary practicioner, you might find this book helpful:http://www.amazon.com/Wicca-Solitary-Practitioner-Authors-Shadows/dp/0875421180

 

I care about you Kathlene, but think your belief system is very bad for your well being.

[Kathlene]

 

 

Look it was a bad call and judgement I made, ok? I said my apologies and asked to close the thread. End of story.

 

 

. . .

 

 

Im just reposting this again...because after I posted it, people either didnt see it or chose to ignore it and yet the thread has still gone on. I ask for no special treatment on this site. I already said I made a bad call and judgement in posting this. It wasn't a dishonest attempt at evangelising. For some stupid reason I was reading it and just thought I would like to get other's opinions of it. Ok, I was wrong, and I apologise. End of story. Close the thread if you want to moderators.

But Kathlene, you got what you asked for. Lots of opinions, clear and passionate. I don't understand why you are apologizing or why you are asking for the thread to be closed.

 

Actually you do this forum a service by showing readers who may not be familiar with Max Lucado and other authors like him.

 

Now, ex-Christians or "Non-X, Non-Exers" can understand how talented Christians can use emotional appeals to cover-up irrationality and inanity.

 

I know this is not the service you intended to deliver, but it is very useful nonetheless.

 

I just don't understand the martyr complex language of "I apologize . . . I didn't mean to offend . . . and please close the post." I wonder if maybe you did halfway expect ol' Max's lines to be persuasive to us.

 

But anyway, never be ashamed to share what you want, but never be surprised if people react to it in ways you don't expect.

 

Florduh kept accusing me of being a troll, so I felt embarrassed that this thread was inappropriate to you all...thats all. Thank you for your kinds words.

[Kathlene]

So, Believer, you should realize by now that nobody in this group is going to find that stuff convincing. For one, they've already heard it and decided against it. But, more importantly, even within Christian circles, Max Lucado is considered milquetoast, mamby-pamby stuff. When I converted to Christianity, there was about a week where I found Lucado to be inspiring. Then I matured a bit, started reading the Bible, grew "spiritually" beyond the Jesus-junk and religious kitsch that could be purchased off the rack at my local Family Bookstore. I went to college, studied Greek and Hebrew and theology, and realized that so much of that stuff is a part of the disease that Christianity suffers from in its current incarnation as an expression of American Consumerism. Max Lucado is the Christian version of Deepak Chopra. Even if something he says is accurate from the perspective of the New Testament, the genre he belongs to is as enlightening and as substantive as what you'll find on the Disney channel. If I were a Christian, I would be embarrassed for you. Reading Max Lucado as a mature Christian would be like a college student carrying around a backpack full of "I Can Read" books.

 

Have you ever read Augustine? Athanasius? Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians? Karl Barth's "the Humanity of God"? Don't waste your time on this Max Lucado crap--it's not good for Christians to read, and it's certainly not going to be convincing to non-Christians. Max Lucado is to the world of thought what Thomas Kinkade is to the world of art. And that's being generous.

 

I'm trying to think of another analogy, but I can't, but really--don't waste your time reading him, and don't bother offering this childish nonsense up for adults to consider. It's beneath you, and certainly beneath us.

Thankyou Bob, I had no idea Max Lucado was viewed like this. I haven't read a lot of christian books, (mainly fiction,lol), but hey thanks for the information, I will keep it mind.

[Brakeman]

.. Reading Max Lucado as a mature Christian would be like a college student carrying around a backpack full of "I Can Read" books.

 

Have you ever read Augustine? Athanasius? Martin Luther's commentary on Galatians? Karl Barth's "the Humanity of God"? Don't waste your time on this Max Lucado crap--it's not good for Christians to read, and it's certainly not going to be convincing to non-Christians. Max Lucado is to the world of thought what Thomas Kinkade is to the world of art. And that's being generous.

 

I'm trying to think of another analogy, but I can't, but really--don't waste your time reading him, and don't bother offering this childish nonsense up for adults to consider. It's beneath you, and certainly beneath us.

Thankyou Bob, I had no idea Max Lucado was viewed like this. I haven't read a lot of christian books, (mainly fiction,lol), but hey thanks for the information, I will keep it mind.

 

Bob and Kathlene,

 

First off, More "christians" today OWN Max Lucado books than have even heard of Augustine and Martin Luther. You are greatly over estimating the knowledge and intellect of christians, American Christians at the least.

As a PK I have been to literally hundreds of churches and their classrooms, and from my experience less than two percent know anything of their religions history or textual criticisms. So While he may be a emotional string pulling huckster, he is well revered and well known.

 

Because he is so rarely a choice for textual criticism, I heartily applaud it's dragging to the arena. I want Kathlene to drag more excerpts of his books for us to giggle at and analyze.

I would but I don't own any. (trashed them all and I ain't gonna buy any)

[Dagan]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but honestly, Max Lucado isn't that bad. The covers of his books make me want to retch, with lots of burgandy and pink and flowery fonts (I think we know which market this is aimed for) but his theology is deeper than it may appear.

 

Yes, there are elements of saccharine and gag-me-with-a-wooden-spoon in his prose, but when I was still a Christian I found his work to be thought-provoking and a meaningful way of explaining how Christianity could fit into real life.

 

It's kind of like how beneath the gross emotional manipulation of "The Shack" the author tackles some real tough questions that few preachers dare to approach.

 

I still think the beliefs at the core of Lucado's writings is bunk, but I don't want to fall into the trap of intellectual elitism and sneering at anyone who doesn't read the bible with a greek lexicon beside them. Christianity started as a popular religion, Lucado is popular writing, and I think he reflects the religion's core beliefs accurately.

[StevoMuso]

Ok, I was wrong, and I apologise. End of story. Close the thread if you want to moderators.

 

Kathlene. Just to let you know that I, even as a hardened-reprobate-evangelical-atheist have enjoyed this post. I can also understand that your motives were simply to see what would happen if some us read what appears at first glance to be a beautiful story.

 

This thread has given me a deeper understanding of what it is that keeps many Christians believing in spite of overwhelming "evidence against". I have learned that the "feel good" part of Christianity plays a vital role in maintaining faith, and that these feelings are often mistaken as faith. So thanks for the post - you sound like a humble and loving person, and the kind of girl who's friendship is closely treasured by those around you. Sadly (for me) being such a good and gentle person makes you a prime target for the "feel-good" practitioners to prey on.

 

Anyway - loved this thread - thanks again.

[squint]

Max Lucado is controlled by a blinding DEVIL who does not know the texts he proclaims and uses to condemn his fellow mankind, starting with Adam and will never end until everyone believes the condemnation he expresses from that DEVIL upon all others of mankind, which fortunately WILL NOT HAPPEN.

 

enjoy!

 

squint

 

Hey all, I am just putting a story in here by Max Lucado about the sin of Adam. I've read it and thought it was pretty powerful. Wanted to see any opinions on it. !

 

The Choice

 

by Max Lucado

 

He placed one scoop of clay upon another until a form lay lifeless on the ground.

All of the Garden’s inhabitants paused to witness the event. Hawks hovered. Giraffes stretched. Trees bowed. Butterflies paused on petals and watched.

“You will love me, nature,” God said. “I made you that way. You will obey me, universe. For you were designed to do so. You will reflect my glory, skies, for that is how you were created. But this one will be like me. This one will be able to choose.”

All were silent as the Creator reached into himself and removed something yet unseen. A seed. “It’s called ‘choice.’ The seed of choice.”

Creation stood in silence and gazed upon the lifeless form.

An angel spoke, “But what if he … ”

“What if he chooses not to love?” the Creator finished. “Come, I will show you.”

Unbound by today, God and the angel walked into the realm of tomorrow.

“There, see the fruit of the seed of choice, both the sweet and the bitter.”

The angel gasped at what he saw. Spontaneous love. Voluntary devotion. Chosen tenderness. Never had he seen anything like these. He felt the love of the Adams. He heard the joy of Eve and her daughters. He saw the food and the burdens shared. He absorbed the kindness and marveled at the warmth.

“Heaven has never seen such beauty, my Lord. Truly, this is your greatest creation.”

“Ah, but you’ve only seen the sweet. Now witness the bitter.”

A stench enveloped the pair. The angel turned in horror and proclaimed, “What is it?”

The Creator spoke only one word: “Selfishness.”

The angel stood speechless as they passed through centuries of repugnance. Never had he seen such filth. Rotten hearts. Ruptured promises. Forgotten loyalties. Children of the creation wandering blindly in lonely labyrinths.

“This is the result of choice?” the angel asked.

“Yes.”

“They will forget you?”

“Yes.”

“They will reject you?”

“Yes.”

“They will never come back?”

“Some will. Most won’t.”

“What will it take to make them listen?”

The Creator walked on in time, further and further into the future, until he stood by a tree. A tree that would be fashioned into a cradle. Even then he could smell the hay that would surround him.

With another step into the future, he paused before another tree. It stood alone, a stubborn ruler of a bald hill. The trunk was thick, and the wood was strong. Soon it would be cut. Soon it would be trimmed. Soon it would be mounted on the stony brow of another hill. And soon he would be hung on it.

He felt the wood rub against a back he did not yet wear.

“Will you go down there?” the angel asked.

“I will.”

“Is there no other way?”

“There is not.”

“Wouldn’t it be easier to not plant the seed? Wouldn’t it be easier to not give the choice?”

“It would,” the Creator spoke slowly. “But to remove the choice is to remove the love.”

He looked around the hill and foresaw a scene. Three figures hung on three crosses. Arms spread. Heads fallen forward. They moaned with the wind.

Men clad in soldiers’ garb sat on the ground near the trio. They played games in the dirt and laughed.

Men clad in religion stood off to one side. They smiled. Arrogant, cocky. They had protected God, they thought, by killing this false one.

Women clad in sorrow huddled at the foot of the hill. Speechless. Faces tear streaked. Eyes downward. One put her arm around another and tried to lead her away. She wouldn’t leave. “I will stay,” she said softly. “I will stay.”

All heaven stood to fight. All nature rose to rescue. All eternity poised to protect. But the Creator gave no command.

“It must be done … ,” he said, and withdrew.

But as he stepped back in time, he heard the cry that he would someday scream: “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) He wrenched at tomorrow’s agony.

The angel spoke again. “It would be less painful … ”

The Creator interrupted softly. “But it wouldn’t be love.”

They stepped into the Garden again. The Maker looked earnestly at the clay creation. A monsoon of love swelled up within him. He had died for the creation before he had made him. God’s form bent over the sculptured face and breathed. Dust stirred on the lips of the new one. The chest rose, cracking the red mud. The cheeks fleshened. A finger moved. And an eye opened.

But more incredible than the moving of the flesh was the stirring of the spirit. Those who could see the unseen gasped.

Perhaps it was the wind who said it first. Perhaps what the star saw that moment is what has made it blink ever since. Maybe it was left to an angel to whisper it:

“It looks like … it appears so much like … it is him!”

The angel wasn’t speaking of the face, the features, or the body. He was looking inside—at the soul.

“It’s eternal!” gasped another.

Within the man, God had placed a divine seed. A seed of his self. The God of might had created earth’s mightiest. The Creator had created, not a creature, but another creator. And the One who had chosen to love had created one who could love in return.

Now it’s our choice.

From In the Eye of the Storm

Copyright (Thomas Nelson, 1997) Max Lucado

[StevoMuso]

Max Lucado is controlled by a blinding DEVIL who does not know the texts he proclaims and uses to condemn his fellow mankind, starting with Adam and will never end until everyone believes the condemnation he expresses from that DEVIL upon all others of mankind, which fortunately WILL NOT HAPPEN.

enjoy!

squint

Hi Squint. Welcome to the forum. Most of us here are Ex-Christians and, in the same way we reject the concept of God, most of us also reject the concept of the Devil (he is, after all, one of Christianity's deities).

[squint]

Max Lucado is controlled by a blinding DEVIL who does not know the texts he proclaims and uses to condemn his fellow mankind, starting with Adam and will never end until everyone believes the condemnation he expresses from that DEVIL upon all others of mankind, which fortunately WILL NOT HAPPEN.

enjoy!

squint

Hi Squint. Welcome to the forum. Most of us here are Ex-Christians and, in the same way we reject the concept of God, most of us also reject the concept of the Devil (he is, after all, one of Christianity's deities).

 

I have found it profitable within (for myself) to blame some(thing) else RATHER than ANY of my neighbors if that's OK with you? No harm, no foul THEN to ANY 'cause it's NOT THEM.

 

Notwithstanding the reality of which cannot be empirically proven, to which I readily acknowledge, the value factor remains within for me regardless and imho, no harm no foul.

 

And thanks for the welcome! You may come to appreciate the approach.

 

s

[StevoMuso]

I have found it profitable within (for myself) to blame some(thing) else RATHER than ANY of my neighbors if that's OK with you? No harm, no foul THEN to ANY 'cause it's NOT THEM.

 

Notwithstanding the reality of which cannot be empirically proven, to which I readily acknowledge, the value factor remains within for me regardless and imho, no harm no foul.

 

And thanks for the welcome! You may come to appreciate the approach.

Forgive me but I find your English quite difficult to interpret: Are you saying that, instead of being nasty to Max we should just blame some impossible/invisible/made-up-on-the-spot demon? That's pretty weird, even by Christian standards.

[squint]

I have found it profitable within (for myself) to blame some(thing) else RATHER than ANY of my neighbors if that's OK with you? No harm, no foul THEN to ANY 'cause it's NOT THEM.

 

Notwithstanding the reality of which cannot be empirically proven, to which I readily acknowledge, the value factor remains within for me regardless and imho, no harm no foul.

 

And thanks for the welcome! You may come to appreciate the approach.

Forgive me but I find your English quite difficult to interpret: Are you saying that, instead of being nasty to Max we should just blame some impossible/invisible/made-up-on-the-spot demon? That's pretty weird, even by Christian standards.

 

Deprogramming typically starts within the arena of 'how they got there.' Using other measures of rationale may help later.

[par4dcourse]

Warning! Danger Will Robinson! Nutjob alert!

 

 

 

[squint]

Warning! Danger Will Robinson! Nutjob alert!

 

 

 

If you are trying to imply that I believe ANY christian nutjob out there, which nearly ALL of them are, you would be very very tin headed.

[par4dcourse]

Warning! Danger Will Robinson! Nutjob alert!

 

 

 

If you are trying to imply that I believe ANY christian nutjob out there, which nearly ALL of them are, you would be very very tin headed.

 

I've read several of your posts so far and I have to ask: what is it exactly you do believe?

[squint]

Warning! Danger Will Robinson! Nutjob alert!

 

 

 

If you are trying to imply that I believe ANY christian nutjob out there, which nearly ALL of them are, you would be very very tin headed.

 

I've read several of your posts so far and I have to ask: what is it exactly you do believe?

 

Pertaining to what?

 

IF anyone picks up 'the word of God' what comes out but their OWN reflections? Certainly doesn't mean THAT is God now does it, thank GOD.

 

I believe in 'the God' of 'personal reflections' (see lower left in my posts) cause that is THE GOD that I can actually see and dialog with.

 

enjoy!

 

squint