Ouroboros Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 You are mixing in some kind of philosophical precept ("harm is evil") with evolutionary mechanics ("advantageous instincts"). This does not work. Harm is very often evolutionarily advantageous. Lions kill, but they don't murder. IOW, your gross generalization does not work. Murder is killing with intent and premeditation. Are lions unable to have intent in their kills? They don't premeditate to kill their prey? It's all about word games here. The definition of "murder" only apply to humans, not because of the underlying concepts, but because we define it something human. It's like saying: Lions do not have human eyes. And we both know that it's obvious. So lions do not murder under the definition of "a human killing another human with intent and premeditation." Btw, "harm is evil" isn't really a philosophical concept (I assume that's what you really meant. "Precept" doesn't really fit in your sentence.) Aristotle suggested the golden mean, which means that sometimes harm is necessary for the ultimate good, and so does Utilitarianism. Lions do kill, with intent, and they premeditate it by sneaking and planning the right time for attack. And they do it to survive. But, do they kill each other? Sometimes, but not always. Just like humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 I agree. I think it says more about human beings than it does about the concepts of good/evil though. What it shows is that virtually everyone who is not mentally damaged can appear to agree on at least a few basic moral positions. And isn't this predictable since we are all social creatures with similar basic needs? Though I would add that the vast majority of moral lapses are not attributable to physiological maladies. No, I didn't mean to imply this. I was basically referring to those who don't have a moral compass because they are sociopathic. Though of course you are right, you don't have to be a sociopath to kill or maim or other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 ... we are all social creatures... The word "creature" strikes me as a Christian/religious holdover. I use the word "organism". I'm on you a bit today Vigile. And I'll tell you why in a PM if you want to know. Lemme guess, the flag thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 1) If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist 2) Objective moral values do not exist 3) Therefore, God does not exist. Hans already addressed this in detail. I just wanted to add that your conclusion doesn't follow. Subjective morality doesn't necessarily mean that god doesn't exist. I was just turning the tables, not engaging in serious "theology." Or is "serious theology" an oxymoron? Like the song by Pink Floyd, the absence of "absolute morality" may not seal the deal that there is no god, but it is "Another Brick in the Wall." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Like the song by Pink Floyd, the absence of "absolute morality" may not seal the deal that there is no god, but it is "Another Brick in the Wall." Agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legion Posted March 17, 2010 Share Posted March 17, 2010 Lemme guess, the flag thing. Oh, not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest I Love Dog Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 Is circumcision evil? No. Even if the infant has no way to reject or accept it? Is that not exploitation? Based on your questions, I assume you agree there is an objective good and evil. 1) If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist 2) Objective moral values do exist 3) Therefore, God exists The vast majority of people on this planet do not believe in your god, only 30% do, and that's often doubtful. Does this mean that they don't have objective moral values? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted March 18, 2010 Author Share Posted March 18, 2010 When Christians claim there are absolute evil, they forget to add one disclaimer. They need a qualifier to that claim. What they're really saying is: it's evil under all circumstances, except when God commands it. Because when commands people to do evil, all absolute evils become absolutely good. That's the only way they can excuse God for commanding genocide and murder of babies in the Bible. If I remember right, he even commanded some prophets to lie. If those things are mortal sins, God, as a conspirator to crime, is culpable. I agree, Ouroboros. What kind of maniacal God would command genocide and the murder of babies? It’s the "god" created from the minds of men from a more primitive time. That angry God idea was hatched in Hebrew tribal times, continued through a thousand plus years of dark ages under Pope's of the Holy Roman Empire, and is perpetuated these days by the privileged elite, lest we become free thinkers and deprive the bastards of their power and wealth. While the possible choices of each individual result in clear alternative consequences, these are viewed less passionately by Eastern religions as the unjudged dualities, "yin and yang", neither good nor evil. Contrary to the foolish mutterings Pope's and money grubbing televangelists, the Mind of God is fully content with his entire creation including his most unpredictable creature, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 When Christians claim there are absolute evil, they forget to add one disclaimer. They need a qualifier to that claim. What they're really saying is: it's evil under all circumstances, except when God commands it. Because when commands people to do evil, all absolute evils become absolutely good. That's the only way they can excuse God for commanding genocide and murder of babies in the Bible. If I remember right, he even commanded some prophets to lie. If those things are mortal sins, God, as a conspirator to crime, is culpable. I agree, Ouroboros. What kind of maniacal God would command genocide and the murder of babies? It’s the "god" created from the minds of men from a more primitive time. That angry God idea was hatched in Hebrew tribal times, continued through a thousand plus years of dark ages under Pope's of the Holy Roman Empire, and is perpetuated these days by the privileged elite, lest we become free thinkers and deprive the bastards of their power and wealth. May I suggest that cruel and vindictive gods have been almost universal among human cultures and predated the Hebrews. Even the Mayans and Aztecs (whose gods post-dated the Hebrews, but developed independently of them), and of course the cultures from which the Hebrews borrowed (near eastern cultures like the Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians and Assyrians). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted March 18, 2010 Share Posted March 18, 2010 And one consequence is that I would not want to be Jesse James right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sconnor Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 What Pol Pot did was evil... Yes genocide is evil. Curious -- Pol Pot has this in common with your god, who is also a genocidal maniac. "When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2 "...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16 The worldwide flood The Passover in Egypt Genocide of the Canaanite people And the Amalekite massacre. 1Sam 15:3 The Lord says, Go and attack the Amalekites! Destroy them and all their possessions. Don't have any pity. Kill their men, women, children, and even their babies. Many deluded christians have to do mighty back-flips and mental gymnastics in order to condone and salvage their sky-father's vile, sadistic actions by offering bloated rationalizations like the Amalekite children were being sacrificed to false gods, they deserved it and children living with evil people would be better of dead, blah, blah, blah. God's only solution to the problem was to rescind his commandment of thou shall not kill, thereby ordering in a barbaric army of men, to destroy everyone, including, pregnant women and innocent children and babies, showing them no pity, using the primitive weapons of the day -- cutting throats, chopping off heads, plunging swords into bellies, bludgeoning and eviscerating, causing some to suffer for hours or days as they slowly died? Now these same psychotic christians will assert that god gave them life, so he can take it -- BUT why did he have to cause them to SUFFER in egregious unthinkable ways first? Why would an all-loving, god create and send these children into these horrific situations, in the first place? And why would a god -- who could simply wish the universe into existence -- not just simply wave his hand and make these children disappear into his awaiting arms, forgoing all the immense pain and mass suffering? --S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted March 19, 2010 Share Posted March 19, 2010 Judge Not... There is nothing wrong with mankind any more than there is anything wrong with nature. I believe man is no more good or evil than a dog or horse or tree. Man is a creature of this earth, blessed with astonishing intelligence that allows him to choose to behave well or badly. There is no good or evil, only choices and consequences. Yes, I agree (good thread Major Tom). It seems to me that an individual's moral choices are primarily based upon feelings (empathy, compassion, etc.), desires, and his/her own survival. Beyond this base is the group/family and society he/she is a part of teaches. An individual with a developed conscience can determine whether his choices and actions are life enhancing/harmful, /right/wrong, good/bad. Even though "evil" is a religious term, something needs to be used when we mean an action is either "good" or "bad". At bdp's suggestion, I offer this definition of evil: EVIL:4. Something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destructionsource GOOD is harder to pin down. I think something morally "good" would be life enhancing. What HereticZero said echoes what you said, and is important to keep in mind whenever we discuss morality, because we are social animals: "Human nature is what is natural for people to do, even things we find shameful is normal for people to do." So we should always emphasize what is naturally human, as humans are the unavoidable basis for human morality. I say human morality, because God has nothing to do with our morality. We have no way of knowing what God expects us to do. If God does play into it, then we become obedient slaves like Adam and Eve. We would not know good from bad. God would dictate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 20, 2010 Share Posted March 20, 2010 I say human morality, because God has nothing to do with our morality. We have no way of knowing what God expects us to do. You hit it out of the park, agnosticator. Even before I deconverted it really irked me to hear people talk like they know what their god wanted in other than the most general terms. It also irked me when people would talk as if they knew what their god was going to do in sermons, Sunday school lessons and even in interpersonal conversations. I'm not sure if it struck me as arrogance or status competition with people gaining status in the church by their ability to make people believe that they understood God just a little bit better than everyone else. I don't know if these comments really follows this thread. But your words resonated with me. That is the essence of the delusion in both the morality and the religion debate: It is delusional to think that you know what your god will do and what your god wants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 That is the essence of the delusion in both the morality and the religion debate: It is delusional to think that you know what your god will do and what your god wants. Yeah, oddbird. I fell for that, and made so many bad decisions by praying and looking for God's Will to guide my life. Now, it's very frustrating listening silently to a christian who believes he knows what God wants and thinks. It IS the "essence of the delusion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sconnor Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 BTW -- where did OC scurry off to? --S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoMuso Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 That is the essence of the delusion in both the morality and the religion debate: It is delusional to think that you know what your god will do and what your god wants. Yeah, oddbird. I fell for that, and made so many bad decisions by praying and looking for God's Will to guide my life. Now, it's very frustrating listening silently to a christian who believes he knows what God wants and thinks. It IS the "essence of the delusion". Yes, and how many Christians have acted on these delusional ideas of "God's will" and failed miserably? I've seen it often, and the funny thing is they never look back and say "I was wrong". It seems to me as if they live in this cloud of delusion, like their own personal insane world of God-voices, and no matter how many times the voices turn out to be false, they don't see it because of the cloud of delusion. It seems as if delusion begets delusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Yes, and how many Christians have acted on these delusional ideas of "God's will" and failed miserably? I've seen it often, and the funny thing is they never look back and say "I was wrong". It seems to me as if they live in this cloud of delusion, like their own personal insane world of God-voices, and no matter how many times the voices turn out to be false, they don't see it because of the cloud of delusion. It seems as if delusion begets delusion. I think a lot of us on this site finally looked back and said, "Boy was I wrong." In fact, quite a few months post-conversion were spent banging my head on the wall thinking to myself, "How could I BE so STOOPID!" Waking up from a delusion is not a cut and dry, easy process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Yes, and how many Christians have acted on these delusional ideas of "God's will" and failed miserably? I've seen it often, and the funny thing is they never look back and say "I was wrong". It seems to me as if they live in this cloud of delusion, like their own personal insane world of God-voices, and no matter how many times the voices turn out to be false, they don't see it because of the cloud of delusion. It seems as if delusion begets delusion. Delusional? Me? Nah, God said I can fly with my angel wings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sconnor Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 Yes, and how many Christians have acted on these delusional ideas of "God's will" and failed miserably? I've seen it often, and the funny thing is they never look back and say "I was wrong". It seems to me as if they live in this cloud of delusion, like their own personal insane world of God-voices, and no matter how many times the voices turn out to be false, they don't see it because of the cloud of delusion. It seems as if delusion begets delusion. I think a lot of us on this site finally looked back and said, "Boy was I wrong." In fact, quite a few months post-conversion were spent banging my head on the wall thinking to myself, "How could I BE so STOOPID!" Waking up from a delusion is not a cut and dry, easy process! Yeah, I remember my breakthrough; it was after months of research and honest inquiry and late one night before I went to sleep, I just kept saying over and over in my head, "this is all bullshit, this is ALL bullshit." --S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathlene Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I will freely admit there have been times where I have got it completely wrong with God, but I also admit that was way back when I was still a new christian. I feel that I have certainly grown more mature since then, and I know now what is my own delusional thoughts and Gods still small voice in me. What about all the times the christian gets it right? I think its a journey of growing in your relationship with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrdinaryClay Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I think its a journey of growing in your relationship with God. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agnosticator Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I think its a journey of growing in your relationship with God. I used to say the same thing. Maybe it's because you are maturing and growing in your relationships with other people, and your character is changing for the better. If I had listened to "the still small voice" in me, I would never have been born again, and as a result, not made certain other choices. It told me to "run and don't look back". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 I will freely admit there have been times where I have got it completely wrong with God, but I also admit that was way back when I was still a new christian. I feel that I have certainly grown more mature since then, and I know now what is my own delusional thoughts and Gods still small voice in me. What about all the times the christian gets it right? I think its a journey of growing in your relationship with God. Ok, but this is not a state particular to Christians, but to all humans, we make both good and bad choices. You feel you make better choices now than you did 10 years ago, well so do I. I just don't attach any significance to this to supernatural beings. I do no see any evidence to suggest that Christians figure it out any faster, or better themselves as human beings any more effectively than anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted March 21, 2010 Share Posted March 21, 2010 What about all the times the christian gets it right? "Right" with regards to what? How can you grow in relationship to something that is a mutual delusion? Maybe you've grown more convinced of a delusion and that is what growing in relationship to a god really means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted March 22, 2010 Share Posted March 22, 2010 I think its a journey of growing in your relationship with God. I think I outgrew God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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