And God Was With Custer

[Shyone]

Judges 1

18. The men of Judah also took Gaza, Ashkelon and Ekron--each city with its territory.

19. The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots.

 

The men of Custer’s army took the Cheyenne, Sioux and Lakota, each tribe with its territory. The Lord was with the men of Custer’s army. They took possession of the plains, but they were unable to drive the people out of the Little Big Horn because they had guns of iron.

 

The similarities between the conquest of the Promised Land and the Manifest Destiny of the United States have long been recognized, sometimes favorably, sometimes not. John O’Sullivan, an influential columnist, believed that Manifest Destiny was a moral ideal (a "higher law") that superseded other considerations. Congressional Representative Robert Winthrop was the first in a long line of critics who suggested that advocates of Manifest Destiny were citing "Divine Providence" for justification of actions that were motivated by chauvinism and self-interest. (cf. McDougall, Walter A. Promised Land, Crusader State: The American Encounter with the World Since 1776. New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1997.)

 

“Manifest Destiny had serious consequences for Native Americans, since continental expansion implicitly meant the occupation and annexation of Native American land.” The heathen Indians were considered (and treated) as less than human, and the United States was loathe to recognize their rights to the lands they called theirs. They were, after all, obstacles to the realization of Manifest Destiny. Treaties reduced the Indians to the effective status of prisoners and many were essentially executed.

 

The Trail of Tears was scarcely more merciful than the wholesale execution of the captive Midianite women and children.

 

Numbers 31

17. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,

18. but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

 

Many Native Americans suffered from exposure, disease, and starvation while en route to their destinations, and many died, including 4,000 of the 15,000 relocated Cherokee.

 

In the recorded history of the United States, we have witnessed the process of taking land from its aboriginal occupants in order to make room for the occupation of a conquering people. It is easy, in retrospect, to see this as a land grab “motivated by chauvinism and self-interest.” The slaughter, if not the intended genocide, of Indians is a blight on our history. There are too many examples to list, but here is one:

 

1818, April 22, Chehaw Affair: U.S. troops attacked a non-hostile Muscogee village during the First Seminole War, killing an estimated 10 to 50 men, women and children.

 

Why is it so difficult to recognize the same motivations (if not methods) in the massacres of the indigenous population of Canaan?

 

The attribution of such acts of atrocity to “Divine Providence” does not excuse the taking of innocent lives. It never has, and it never will.

[florduh]

Oh my name it is nothin'

My age it means less

The country I come from

Is called the Midwest

I's taught and brought up there

The laws to abide

And the land that I live in

Has God on its side.

 

Oh the history books tell it

They tell it so well

The cavalries charged

The Indians fell

The cavalries charged

The Indians died

Oh the country was young

With God on its side.

 

The Spanish-American

War had its day

And the Civil War too

Was soon laid away

And the names of the heroes

I's made to memorize

With guns on their hands

And God on their side.

 

The First World War, boys

It came and it went

The reason for fighting

I never did get

But I learned to accept it

Accept it with pride

For you don't count the dead

When God's on your side.

 

When the Second World War

Came to an end

We forgave the Germans

And then we were friends

Though they murdered six million

In the ovens they fried

The Germans now too

Have God on their side.

 

I've learned to hate Russians

All through my whole life

If another war comes

It's them we must fight

To hate them and fear them

To run and to hide

And accept it all bravely

With God on my side.

 

But now we got weapons

Of the chemical dust

If fire them we're forced to

Then fire them we must

One push of the button

And a shot the world wide

And you never ask questions

When God's on your side.

 

In a many dark hour

I've been thinkin' about this

That Jesus Christ

Was betrayed by a kiss

But I can't think for you

You'll have to decide

Whether Judas Iscariot

Had God on his side.

 

So now as I'm leavin'

I'm weary as Hell

The confusion I'm feelin'

Ain't no tongue can tell

The words fill my head

And fall to the floor

If God's on our side

He'll stop the next war.

[dagnarus]

The attribution of such acts of atrocity to “Divine Providence” does not excuse the taking of innocent lives. It never has, and it never will.

 

Unfortunately in a practical sense, it always has, just ask Godlimations. I think this is what truly highlights why rationalists truly have to keep speaking up about religion, even if we don't get people to deconvert we can at least sow enough doubt that they go with their gut instead of their dogma when it comes this sort of inhumanity (I was about to delete this part because I thought nowadays this sort of nastiness wouldn't come up anyway, but then I realized that apparently within recent memory Pat Robertson actually advised the killing of gays on television)..

[Shyone]

The attribution of such acts of atrocity to “Divine Providence” does not excuse the taking of innocent lives. It never has, and it never will.

 

Unfortunately in a practical sense, it always has, just ask Godlimations. I think this is what truly highlights why rationalists truly have to keep speaking up about religion, even if we don't get people to deconvert we can at least sow enough doubt that they go with their gut instead of their dogma when it comes this sort of inhumanity (I was about to delete this part because I thought nowadays this sort of nastiness wouldn't come up anyway, but then I realized that apparently within recent memory Pat Robertson actually advised the killing of gays on television)..

Strictly speaking, you are absolutely right. I meant that it was not a good excuse to slaughter. Maybe I should add "IMO". Although I should not have to (IMO...).

 

And it wasn't just Pat Robertson; it is an entire movement of Christianity (and Islam) in this country and many other countries around the world.

 

In fact, the entire motivation behind the violent form of jihad is essentially "Divine Providence" of Allah. The Muslims are convinced that the entire world can be subjugated to the will of Allah by the use of force combined with persuasion. "Come to Allah, or we will kill you."

[dB-Paradox]

Why is it so difficult to recognize the same motivations (if not methods) in the massacres of the indigenous population of Canaan?

I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but in recent decades, we've learned through archeology that these stories of Canaanites being defeated in war is not supported. So, either the biblical stories were exaggerated, or made up entirely. Like I said, I'm not any word of authority on the subject, so maybe some of the stories were true. But it's becoming increasingly clear that the Israelites were Canaanites. No war. No destruction. Just a nice peaceful emergence between two groups of Canaanites who would eventually become the Israelites.

[Shyone]

Why is it so difficult to recognize the same motivations (if not methods) in the massacres of the indigenous population of Canaan?

I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but in recent decades, we've learned through archeology that these stories of Canaanites being defeated in war is not supported. So, either the biblical stories were exaggerated, or made up entirely. Like I said, I'm not any word of authority on the subject, so maybe some of the stories were true. But it's becoming increasingly clear that the Israelites were Canaanites. No war. No destruction. Just a nice peaceful emergence between two groups of Canaanites who would eventually become the Israelites.

Well, yes, that's absolutely true, but since the Christians who come here think of the Bible as historical I decided to make the comparison to recent history.

 

It's like saying "God ordered the massacre" when there is no God.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but in recent decades, we've learned through archeology that these stories of Canaanites being defeated in war is not supported. So, either the biblical stories were exaggerated, or made up entirely. Like I said, I'm not any word of authority on the subject, so maybe some of the stories were true. But it's becoming increasingly clear that the Israelites were Canaanites. No war. No destruction. Just a nice peaceful emergence between two groups of Canaanites who would eventually become the Israelites.

Well, yes, that's absolutely true, but since the Christians who come here think of the Bible as historical I decided to make the comparison to recent history.

 

It's like saying "God ordered the massacre" when there is no God.

 

Most of the biblical stories probably were made up or at least exaggerated, but those conquest stories serve as a source of justification for heinous acts by adherents to the Abrahamic religions.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Congressional Representative Robert Winthrop was the first in a long line of critics who suggested that advocates of Manifest Destiny were citing "Divine Providence" for justification of actions that were motivated by chauvinism and self-interest.

 

I agree completely.

 

When I was a kid in history class, the issue of Manifest Destiny was basically just a matter of words in a textbook pertaining to things that seemed extremely ancient to me. It didn't really connect.

 

As a thoughtful adult, I am appalled at the way this country treated others. We can say that we helped stop the Nazi Holocaust, but we had a holocaust of our own. It was bad enough that we enslaved Africans and considered them only 3/5 human, but we treated the Natives even worse and sugarcoated it with Manifest Destiny lingo.

 

Augh!

[Rev. Dr. Sparki Hooker]

And don't forget the Japanese concentration camps and shipping anyone who looked Latino into Central Mexico when the depression started.

[dagnarus]

Why is it so difficult to recognize the same motivations (if not methods) in the massacres of the indigenous population of Canaan?

I'm certainly no expert on the subject, but in recent decades, we've learned through archeology that these stories of Canaanites being defeated in war is not supported. So, either the biblical stories were exaggerated, or made up entirely. Like I said, I'm not any word of authority on the subject, so maybe some of the stories were true. But it's becoming increasingly clear that the Israelites were Canaanites. No war. No destruction. Just a nice peaceful emergence between two groups of Canaanites who would eventually become the Israelites.

 

I doubt it was peaceful.