The Up Side Of "you Were Never A Truechristian"

[godlessgrrl]

I just had this thought.

 

It's a very common thing for Christians to wander in here and claim that we were never True Christians™, that maybe we thought we were but we really weren't, and such-and-so Bible verse proves it, yadda yadda yadda.

 

Normally being told I was never a True Christian™ rather cheeses me off, for quite a few reasons. For one thing, it isn't true; all of us here were believers at one point or another, some of us for decades - and I don't care what the fucking Bible says about us, the Bible is disconnected from reality. For another, it's tremendously arrogant and dismissive of us and our former belief, and all the experiences we had as Christians. And of course, it's an annoying No True Scotsman fallacy that anyone with half a brain and a quick lesson in logic should be ashamed to pull out of his ass in any case.

 

However, in my time here I've paid attention to how TrueChristians™ actually behave on this site and elsewhere. I've been watching the trolls, the holier-than-thou types who know the mind of god, the post-and-run preachers, the William Lane Craig apologetibots... people who come in here proselytizing to us, who are so sure that they're the Real Deal™ when it comes to followers of Christ. Indwelt with the Holy Spirit, privy to mysterious spiritual knowledge, puffed up with how superior their religious credentials are compared to us cold, hollow, pitiable false Christians...

 

...and it occurred to me: if that's what being a TrueChristian™ means, if that's what you become, then why would I be offended at being told that I was never one of them?

 

I mean, really, that's like being told by an utter asshole that you weren't ever really a TrueAsshole™! Maybe instead of getting cheesed off, I should be thanking TrueChristians™ instead - thanking them for telling me I wasn't ever really as much of a prick as they are. And maybe I should express a certain happiness and relief:

 

Me: "Well, I used to be a Christian, but I'm not anymore."

TrueChristian™: "There's no such thing as a former Christian. You just think you were a believer, but you never really were a TrueChristian™, like I am."

Me: "I wasn't? Oh wow, that's a relief! Thanks!"

TC™: "Here, let me show you what real Christianity looks like..."

Me: "No thanks! I think I've seen enough already to know I don't want any. Have a nice day!"

 

Just a thought, really.

[Shyone]

I just had this thought.

 

...and it occurred to me: if that's what being a TrueChristian™ means, if that's what you become, then why would I be offended at being told that I was never one of them?

 

I mean, really, that's like being told by an utter asshole that you weren't ever really a TrueAsshole™! Maybe instead of getting cheesed off, I should be thanking TrueChristians™ instead - thanking them for telling me I wasn't ever really as much of a prick as they are. And maybe I should express a certain happiness and relief:

 

Just a thought, really.

Oh, that's brilliant, and True^TM!

[★ Citsonga ★]

I agree to an extent, but not all christians are like those asshole christians. And, to be fair, some nonchristians are assholes to christians. It goes both ways.

 

When christians say that ex-christians were never "true christians," they typically mean at least one of two things: (1) we never really believed, and/or (2) we were never transformed by the holy spirit.

 

Regarding belief, they're simply wrong. Couldn't be further from the truth. In my case, I most certainly DID have a FIRM belief in Jesus' atonement and all that essential christian stuff. There was no question in my mind that it was true. My belief was as strong as possible.

 

Regarding the holy spirit, they're right, we weren't transformed by the holy spirit. But, then again, THEY were never transformed by the holy spirit either, because it's ALL IN THEIR HEADS. The "born again" condition simply doesn't exist, it's just something conjured up in the minds of superstitious believers.

 

That's my 2¢, for what it's worth.

[Phanta]

I agree to an extent, but not all christians are like those asshole christians. And, to be fair, some nonchristians are assholes to christians. It goes both ways.

 

When christians say that ex-christians were never "true christians," they typically mean at least one of two things: (1) we never really believed, and/or (2) we were never transformed by the holy spirit.

 

Both those things are totally true of me, even though I went to church every week for ten years, and youth group a couple nights a week for three years, chapel service once a week for four years, and women's house church once a month for two years. In other words, I was a life-long non-Christian who spent a huge amount of time around religious people.

 

Weird.

 

But true.

 

Phanta

[dB-Paradox]

I was a TrueChristian^TM once. I was considered amung the asshole group. I didn't think I was right, I knew it! Even liberal Christians were wrong. Oh, how I was so lucky to be saved! "If only you could be forgiven as I am" was my mindset.

 

So I, for one, am offended when people tell me I wasn't really a true asshole Christian. YES I WAS!

[oddbird1963]

apologetibots...

 

 

That is the COOLEST coined word I have seen in a long long time!! WOW! It really describes the Habermas-Craig-McDowell drones we have on this site from time to time!!

[oddbird1963]

I agree to an extent, but not all christians are like those asshole christians. And, to be fair, some nonchristians are assholes to christians. It goes both ways.

 

When christians say that ex-christians were never "true christians," they typically mean at least one of two things: (1) we never really believed, and/or (2) we were never transformed by the holy spirit.

 

Regarding belief, they're simply wrong. Couldn't be further from the truth. In my case, I most certainly DID have a FIRM belief in Jesus' atonement and all that essential christian stuff. There was no question in my mind that it was true. My belief was as strong as possible.

 

Regarding the holy spirit, they're right, we weren't transformed by the holy spirit. But, then again, THEY were never transformed by the holy spirit either, because it's ALL IN THEIR HEADS. The "born again" condition simply doesn't exist, it's just something conjured up in the minds of superstitious believers.

 

That's my 2¢, for what it's worth.

 

The Christian religion is just what George Carlin said it was, "God! I just want to be a good guy!"

 

Everything else is symbolic.

[Dagan]

I was transformed by the holy spirit. I'll spare you the details, but it was about as real as it gets. If I wasn't a true Christian, no one is.

 

And no one is, because it's -- as Citsonga said -- all in their heads.

[par4dcourse]

Great post, Gwen. Yet another thing to give thanks for, if I had anyone to give thanks to.

[Dagan]

Great post, Gwen. Yet another thing to give thanks for, if I had anyone to give thanks to.

 

Gwen's better than god because you can thank her directly

[godlessgrrl]

Thank you kindly, all.

 

I'm better than god because I'll won't send you to hell for not believing in me, too.

[Franko47]

mean, really, that's like being told by an utter asshole that you weren't ever really a TrueAsshole™

 

 

That's a great post, Gwen. And you know, you're right. When I think about it, i don't think that I waa ever really a "True Christian" either, since I was always having questions, doubts, and wary of what fundies believed.

 

The fact that at no given time I was ever really a total zombie kool-aid drinker is something that I should actually be proud of.

[Andy]

Sometimes I wonder how much I actually did believe. It's so hard to know. I definitely told myself and everyone else that I did, but I always had problems with it. If you convince yourself that you believe something, even though you don't, is that the same as believing it? Man christianity really fucks with the mind.

[Kathlene]

I've never understood this concept of you were never a true christian. I can definately see how someone can walk away from God even when they were once a full on believer. I did it. You just have to read the testimonies to know the anguish and journeys of most people in here. There are so many reasons why someone walks away from God. I could understand if people asked if you were born again or spirit filled, but even still it is still possible to walk away from that. Meh.

[Erica]

My reaction to this kind of retroactive accusation is more pity than anything else, because it's such a blatant manifestation of the fear that underlies absolutist belief. I remember thinking that it was literally impossible to genuinely understand Christianity and not to believe it, so therefore I thought any lack of belief was born entirely out of a lack of understanding. Corollary: Somebody who goes from believing to not believing had a flawed belief. To which the ex-believer, naturally, responded, 'no, I didn't.' To which I responded 'shutupofcourseyoudidlalalalala' or something along those lines.

 

Basically, I think we're a massive threat to their closed system, and this little loophole allows them to continue in their absolute belief.

[OnceConvinced]

I've never understood this concept of you were never a true christian. I can definately see how someone can walk away from God even when they were once a full on believer. I did it. You just have to read the testimonies to know the anguish and journeys of most people in here. There are so many reasons why someone walks away from God. I could understand if people asked if you were born again or spirit filled, but even still it is still possible to walk away from that. Meh.

The whole concept of "walking away from God" really doesn't make any sense. That would be a little like saying when I was 10 years old I walked away from Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. When it comes to loss of belief, it's not a matter of walking away. That suggests rebellion, which for most ex-Christians is not the case. For myself it was realising one day that I just no longer believed. In fact if we want to get down to brass tacks, a lot of my lack of belief was not seeing evidence of God in my life, in the church or in this world. It was more like a case of God walking away from me. But of course as there is no Christian God, there was no God to walk away from or to walk away from me.

[OnceConvinced]

I can understand being pissed with Christians telling you, you weren't a true Christian. When you genuinely dedicate so much of your life to it, it's hard not to take it as an insult. I was in it for 30 + years and was very sincere in my faith. If I can go that long and not be really a true Christian, then thta shows something seriously wrong with the holy spirit and the whole concept of salvation. If you can go for that long without anyone coming to you and warning you that you are on the wrong path, that shows a real weakness when it comes to God. It shows that there is no holy spirit giving anyone any discernment, otherwise at least one Christian would have said something. But no, in my case, most Christians (and even non-Christians) respected me. At church I was given a lot of responsibility.

 

It just goes to show that the entire thing is just a big sham. There is no God and there is no Holy spirit working in anyone's lives.

[oddbird1963]

The whole concept of "walking away from God" really doesn't make any sense. That would be a little like saying when I was 10 years old I walked away from Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. When it comes to loss of belief, it's not a matter of walking away. That suggests rebellion, which for most ex-Christians is not the case. For myself it was realising one day that I just no longer believed. In fact if we want to get down to brass tacks, a lot of my lack of belief was not seeing evidence of God in my life, in the church or in this world. It was more like a case of God walking away from me. But of course as there is no Christian God, there was no God to walk away from or to walk away from me.

 

I totally agree with you on this. Rather than "walking away," deconversion is like shaking off a dream state. I used to have these dreams that were a blend of my surrounding environment and some mundane, very realistic dream scenario. The people and objects seemed very real, but eventually something would happen in my environment or I would feel an urgent need to wake up and suddenly there I would be, sitting up in bed realizing that I had just had one of the most realistic dreams ever. Everything seemed real enough, until I awoke.

 

That's what leaving Christianity is like. It's an awakening, not a rebellion. It's shaking off a dream state.

[Spike Spiegel]

The whole concept of "walking away from God" really doesn't make any sense. That would be a little like saying when I was 10 years old I walked away from Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. When it comes to loss of belief, it's not a matter of walking away. That suggests rebellion, which for most ex-Christians is not the case. For myself it was realising one day that I just no longer believed. In fact if we want to get down to brass tacks, a lot of my lack of belief was not seeing evidence of God in my life, in the church or in this world. It was more like a case of God walking away from me. But of course as there is no Christian God, there was no God to walk away from or to walk away from me.

 

I totally agree with you on this. Rather than "walking away," deconversion is like shaking off a dream state. I used to have these dreams that were a blend of my surrounding environment and some mundane, very realistic dream scenario. The people and objects seemed very real, but eventually something would happen in my environment or I would feel an urgent need to wake up and suddenly there I would be, sitting up in bed realizing that I had just had one of the most realistic dreams ever. Everything seemed real enough, until I awoke.

 

That's what leaving Christianity is like. It's an awakening, not a rebellion. It's shaking off a dream state.

 

 

In my case, when I realized that the only thing stopping me from pursuing my dream to be a better artist was myself, it was a powerful and sobering experience. If there IS a God, I don't believe it could ever be the one Christianity portrays.

 

Now I've been drawing more, unafraid to do nudes, etc...and I've actually figured out perspective on my own, more or less. Instead of living in a forlorn little Christian fantasy world, I can now literally construct my own universes on paper...it's been so liberating. I always thought my art style and the things I like to draw were "sinful," but now I relish them.

[OnceConvinced]

In my case, when I realized that the only thing stopping me from pursuing my dream to be a better artist was myself, it was a powerful and sobering experience. If there IS a God, I don't believe it could ever be the one Christianity portrays.

 

It just goes to show how much more freedom you have without the shackles of religion. You are free to follow your own dreams and desires, without having to worry whether you're pleasing a non-existant deity. I used to have the mindset that if something wasn't working for me it was God's will. He had some greater plan. So I would shelve certain dreams, thinking that it wasn't what God wanted. But now I realise that if I want something to happen, I have to keep working at it. I can see the possibilty of those dreams becoming reality now, because we create our own destinies, our own purposes. The world is are oyster and the possibilities are endless. There is no God preventing you from becoming what you want to be.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I used to have these dreams that were a blend of my surrounding environment and some mundane, very realistic dream scenario. The people and objects seemed very real, but eventually something would happen in my environment or I would feel an urgent need to wake up and suddenly there I would be, sitting up in bed realizing that I had just had one of the most realistic dreams ever. Everything seemed real enough, until I awoke.

 

That's what leaving Christianity is like. It's an awakening, not a rebellion. It's shaking off a dream state.

 

That is an excellent analogy!

 

Current believers just haven't woken up from their dream.

[oddbird1963]

I used to have these dreams that were a blend of my surrounding environment and some mundane, very realistic dream scenario. The people and objects seemed very real, but eventually something would happen in my environment or I would feel an urgent need to wake up and suddenly there I would be, sitting up in bed realizing that I had just had one of the most realistic dreams ever. Everything seemed real enough, until I awoke.

 

That's what leaving Christianity is like. It's an awakening, not a rebellion. It's shaking off a dream state.

 

That is an excellent analogy!

 

Current believers just haven't woken up from their dream.

 

True. The Christian ethos necessary to keep christian dreamers "plugged in" to the "matrix" does a great job of affirming the beliefs on the one hand and providing social pressure and threats to stay in on the other.

 

I have often used the analogy of the red pill vs the blue pill. It's a good analogy as far as it goes - except that it gives the impression of a conscious choice.

 

And the realization that all the problems I had with Christianity dissolved when I admitted "there is no god guiding this thing!" was practically involuntary. Once my mind hit on that notion and did not shy away from it, I was in the realm of the awakened!

 

I think that over the years, a process of estrangement and isolation had gotten me to a point where none of the external control forces of the "Soul Matrix" were a strong influence on me. I was able to allow my thoughts to form with little distraction and to open my eyes to a more realistic and liberating view of the world.

[ebonileigh]

Hi Gwenmead

 

That is such a brilliant post, and so funny, I laughed and laughed....it is just so true

 

Brilliant, thanks

 

you guys and gals here at ex-c have a great sense of humour