What The Hell Is It With Religious People

[Guest]

A co-worker of mine is very religious. We are still close friends despite this because she does not preach to me and I do not preach to her. Last year, she had to leave town on a family emergency and would not speak of it at all to anyone. She is brought to tears anytime she thinks of it. It involved her brother in another state.

 

Well, this morning curiosity got the better of me and I googled her brothers name. Guess what happened to him? He was sentenced to 10 years in prison for oral sex with a 15 year old boy and giving him alcohol. He was the music director of a Methodist church. I would provide links but for my friends privacy, lets just say this is enough to know.

 

What the hell is it with religious people and children, specifically little boys? Is there something about their innocence? Is it something about the oppression adults get from church? This guy wasn't a catholick priest, he could marry or have normal relationships if he wanted to...WTF???

 

I love my co-worker to death, and I am so sorry she is in pain, but I can not and will not ever offer up any sympathy to child molesters, nor anyone who will support them (i.e. still practicing catholicks). The church maims children enough as it is with all the shit they beat into your head, there is just NO EXCUSE for child molestation!

 

But really, what is going on here?

[Guest Marty]

So I found some more articles, and here is a quote from him during his sentencing...

 

"This has been extremely difficult, physically and emotionally," [name withheld] said. "I'm not trying to put myself above anyone else, but I am a man of culture. I am not streetwise. The use of the 'F'-word (by the other inmates) is eating into my soul."

 

The word fuck is hurting his soul? Gee, how about the fact that you fucked a child? You don't think that is going to eat into that boy's soul? His mother's? His father's?

 

Although he was sentenced to 2 consecutive 10 year terms, he'll be eligible for parole in 5.

 

Yet, if I grow pot in my closet, I get a minimum of 10 years with no parole in 5...this country is such shit...

[Moxie]

On a subconscious level, most, if not all Christians rationalize their wrongdoings by telling themselves that they can ask for their god's forgiveness later. Christians usually say, "We're not perfect, just forgiven."

This is a crying shame.

[Or'el]

Um... *SIGH*

 

Wow... Words cannot describe the injustice of it all. My heart breaks for that little boy and his loved ones, as well as for the loved ones of the perpetrator. No amount of time in prison can make up for the damage that has been done.

[The-Captain]

I don't get it either. To be fair though it isn't just the church, this happens a lot in schools too. Do the mentally fucked just gravitate towards these institutions or what?

[Loren]

The way I've come to look at it, predators are just predators. I think the predeliction for predators to be attracted to religious venues is just that: They are attracted to situations where the vulnerable are made easily available to them, and where social conditions make it less likely that they'll get caught, such as a social circle or institution that assumes trustworthiness to the point of not providing oversight.

 

I don't think that religion causes predators. I think it attracts them the same way a watering hole attracts hyenas.

 

Of course, I do still hold religion accountable for the horrible situation. Even though it doesn't create the predators, it does give them license and free reign. Otherwise, the attraction would not be there.

 

Also, I think that the religious predators can be generally divided into two groups: Those that are cynical about their own predatory nature and don't feel a bit bad about what do and those that do feel bad about it. Of the second group, I think religion attracts them in part due to the promises it makes about how they can find change and healing for themselves there. Of course, by the time they find out that that change doesn't happen, they're often surrounded by opportunities for their appetites.

 

I don't get it either. To be fair though it isn't just the church, this happens a lot in schools too. Do the mentally fucked just gravitate towards these institutions or what?

Precisely. I think it's as understandable as knowing that alcoholics tend to wind up employed as bar tenders.

[The-Captain]

Of course, I do still hold religion accountable for the horrible situation. Even though it doesn't create the predators, it does give them license and free reign. Otherwise, the attraction would not be there.

 

Exactly, in trying to preserve their image by handling these issues "in house" rather than going to civil authorities churches both Catholic and Protestant only promote this kind of behavior.

[Erica]

I don't think that religion causes predators. I think it attracts them the same way a watering hole attracts hyenas.

 

Of course, I do still hold religion accountable for the horrible situation. Even though it doesn't create the predators, it does give them license and free reign. Otherwise, the attraction would not be there.

 

^^ This, on both counts!

 

One thing that has always bothered me about the church, even while I was still in it, is the fucked-up way power is handed out. Because of the redemption narrative, xtians seem to confuse forgiveness with naivete at best, and willful blindness at worst. People like Chuck Colson, for instance, are rewarded for their misdeeds because now they have a 'ministry' for other like-minded arseholes. Another weird power permutation is linked with the systemic sexism -- nearly every born-again man I knew felt he had a 'calling to lead' of some kind, whether that was leading a Bible study (even if he had never studied it properly himself) or going on to become a pastor, again often without any kind of qualifications. Enthusiastic converts -- the men in particular -- are often quickly swept up into leadership positions, with little or no vetting or precautions. The sickest part is, when one of them does abuse someone in his power, all he has to do is cry and repent, and before you know it he'll be head of his own ministry and more popular than ever.

[R. S. Martin]

Sometimes I think religion makes people act badly because of all the emphasis on the depravity of human nature versus the perfection of god, and all this in the context of the hopelessness of human ability ever to change themselves.

 

Let's break that down.

 

1. Religion says human nature is evil. It has to say that. Otherwise, salvation would make no sense. That is depravity of human nature.
2. In contrast, god is perfect, all-powerful, all-knowing. God is everything that humans should be but aren't. This is depravity of human nature for you.
3. And that is that. Humans are depraved. They can't help it. It's just the way things are. Period. That's what salvation is all about, anyway, praise the Lord, amen.

I think part of it may be that predators are attracted to situations where their crimes are easily committed. But I think I see more preoccupation among the religious with correct behaviour than I do among the general population. This "correct behaviour" focuses on things such as clothing that may be worn, entertainment that is appropriate, and other life habits that are "fitting for Christians," as opposed to right and wrong behaviour in and of themselves.

 

The thing is that these (things that make us Christian/American/whatever) are identity issues--not moral or ethical issues.

 

Getting identity confused with morality or ethics must have some bearing on behaviour, but I'm not sure exactly what. It just seems to me that something is somewhat out of kilter somewhere or somehow.

 

Above I outlined their value system based on human depravity, divine perfection, and salvation. This overlooks adult responsibility and accountability, doesn't it? Could that be part of the problem?

 

I guess someone mentioned it earlier.

[SilentLoner]

Wierd, I was just reading Mary Byler's story before I saw this thread.

 

Amish Rape Scandals

http://atheism.about.com/b/2004/08/28/amish-rape-scandals.htm

[Franko47]

Some of this has to do with the way in which emotional development is sometimes hindered in the religious situation.

 

I'm not convinced that religion and the cloistered environment of it doesn't contribute a bit to this kind of thing; I'm not giving religion a pass on this one. I tend to treat anybody working with "youth" in church groups to be a bit suspect; this kind of thing should be properly supervised and often isn't. Predators just love the "trusting" environment, because, hey, we all luv Jesus.

[OpheliaGinger]

Pussy is taboo, but a tiny rectum is so sweet.

[Thurisaz]

That would be one reason I guess. The female is EEEEEEBIL, but boys...

Mostly agreed with Loren. Morontheism attracts predators, just like working in a school/kindergarten does. In addition, declaring sex as evil fucks up people to the point there they (well some of them, let's be fair...) will do anything to get sexual satisfaction eventually. And finally, if a predator can get into a position of authority, so much the better - easier to get hold of victims, and easier to get away with it. As long as morontheist cults will accept literally anyone as führer...

[Emme]

I don't think christians are worse or more perverse than others, but I think sometimes the church provides an environment where these predators can find themselves alone with kids and the parents think it's fine. You trust your pastor with your kids. Same as you trust soccer coaches and teachers. Maybe predators gravitate towards those professions.

[mwc]

I would think it's somewhat of a double-edged sword.

 

The religion tells them that "god" will help "fix" them. Suppress those evil urges. So they get deeply involved with the religion. It "works" to a degree.

 

But the more time they put in the more trust they have placed in them. The are elevated in the church. They then discover they can use their position of trust to actually get what they've wanted all along. They may not go into the church with this idea but once they get into power they realize they can and so they do. They then go through the cycle of asking for forgiveness, which they get (basically from themselves), and continue the cycle.

 

If discovered they make some public type of admission, pay some "penance," think of themselves as a Job or a prodigal son (ie. "god" wants them to know the "true way" and return to the fold), and start all over again.

 

mwc

[Kurari]

Christianity seems to think their god is some sort of divine atm machine and whatever you want, so long as you believe, it will happen. They never actually have to deal with their problems and just distract themselves with imaginary beings.

 

As mwc said, it attracts a lot of mentally fucked up people who try to get as deep as possible into religion in hopes of being fixed. Pedophilia is a naturally occurring orientation* though. You don't get fixed from it anymore than you can be fixed from being straight or whatever.

 

*And no, I'm not saying that pedophilia because it's a naturally occurring orientation that must mean it's ok. A lot of naturally occurring shit is completely fucked up and doesn't actually function well in reality.

 

No matter what orientation you have, you have one rule to follow: Only pursue sex with adult and fully consenting partners.

 

In the case of pedophiles: Tough fucking luck. Learn to live without touching kids or go to jail.

[Vomit Comet]

Someone who schtups 15 year olds isn't a pedophile. There are "hebephiles" who go after adolescent meat, though most don't act on it. (Which is also true of most pedophiles, actually.) Then there are normal people who find themselves in an opportunity to fuck an adolescent; the less scrupulous or more impulsive/stupid just might do it.

 

"Your honor, I didn't know she was underage! / She sure didn't act underage, your honor...." - Mojo Nixon.

 

"Oh, I tell ya doc. She was 15 goin' on 30!" - Randall MacMurphy (Jack Nicholson) in 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.'

 

"The great thing about high school girls is, we keep getting older but they stay the same." Jay from 'Jay and Silent Bob.'

[StevoMuso]

I think Christianity creates what I call "Pandora's Box Syndrome" i.e. if you make something taboo it becomes more attractive. Religion has contributed in a HUGE way to making sex into this "mortal sin" and "dirty thing" and "only if you're married" etc. etc. This simply makes sex into an unattainable obsession in some people, and this could lead to something like the terrible abuse so prevalent in Christian circles. It's everywhere - not just Catholic priests and this terrible Methodist story in the OC. The Kalk Bay Bible Institute in South Africa that I attended back in the 70s was nick-named the "Stork Bay Bridal Institute" because of all the promiscuity going on.

 

Summary: My view is that the taboo on sex in Christianity triggers Pandora's Box Syndrome, and as a direct result, obsessive sexual perversions will emerge in some cases.

[The-Captain]

Summary: My view is that the taboo on sex in Christianity triggers Pandora's Box Syndrome, and as a direct result, obsessive sexual perversions will emerge in some cases.

 

May be something to that. For kicks sometime look into the sexual dysfunctions of the Victorian Age.

[StevoMuso]

Summary: My view is that the taboo on sex in Christianity triggers Pandora's Box Syndrome, and as a direct result, obsessive sexual perversions will emerge in some cases.

 

May be something to that. For kicks sometime look into the sexual dysfunctions of the Victorian Age.

This subject is a huge Pandora's box on its own. My view is that due to things like this, not only has authoritarian religion (like Islam, Judaism and Christianity) failed to produce a generally moral society, the nature of their "ethics" and "morality" have actually caused a lot of the corruption we see. Not only that ... also plenty of confusion (about ethics) and frustration and emotional instability/pain in young people trying to make sense of life and live according to a socially acceptable moral code.

[mwc]

Summary: My view is that the taboo on sex in Christianity triggers Pandora's Box Syndrome, and as a direct result, obsessive sexual perversions will emerge in some cases.

Perhaps, but society as a whole generally demonizes this particular behavior which seems that it should lead to an ever increasing number of people becoming child predators (as opposed to just better/increased reporting of the problem).

 

I can agree with the point that xianity, by oppressing sex in general, could cause people to obsess over it but I'm not sure I can agree that it will cause a behavior that isn't already present to appear (ie. turn a straight person gay and vice-versa or turn either of those into someone who desires children if they don't already).

 

mwc

[FourDogBrewing]

My wife has a theory, that the more vocal and opposed someone is to something, the more likely they are to be partaking in it. lol This only works in the confines of the church though.

 

I live in Colorado Springs and we had that Ted Haggard guy who was always very vocal against gays etc.... turns out he secretly strongly desired it too. lol

 

Anyway in all seriousness, this is a sad story for the kid, pervs are pervs are pervs, this one just happens to cling to a veil of religion as his salvation. Regardless of what espouses in this case his god did not aide him and he is a perv that pursued his pleasure.

[StevoMuso]

I can agree with the point that xianity, by oppressing sex in general, could cause people to obsess over it but I'm not sure I can agree that it will cause a behavior that isn't already present to appear (ie. turn a straight person gay and vice-versa or turn either of those into someone who desires children if they don't already).

mwc

Good point, and I agree. Perhaps the repressive nature of religion brings out perversions that may have remained dormant had the person not been religious. I still think, though, that sexual perversion is "learned" - I cannot agree that a person is born with a kind of "child-molesting-meme". I guess this takes us back to the nature/nurture argument, but my view (based on about 10 years of extensive research on these things) is that Christian taboo-teaching-methods can also play a significant role in actually producing the perversions.

 

For example: "Lusting after children is wrong my son!" "What is 'lusting after children' Dad?" "Well, picture this scenario ...." It's like saying to someone, "Don't think of the Empire State Building" - the first image that pops into their minds is the very thing you are warning against.