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Goodbye Jesus

The Christian Dilemma


ledgehaven

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Christianity is impossible to prove by means of factual evidence.

 

Christianity doesn’t make sense to the common unchurched man.

 

If a god existed, then it would seem to follow that the god would be impossible to

understand.

 

The argument has been made that since a god would not have to “make sense” than a religion

created to worship the said god would not have to “make sense” or to be provable.

 

Therefore, there is not a plausible way to prove the truth of Christianity.

 

Feelings and emotions are also not able to be used as proof of a religion’s truth (or the

truth of anything, for that matter).

 

This begs the question: Why would a god create a means to serve and know him and make it hard to understand, reason with, or believe? Yes, he would be impossible to understand, but if he wanted to ensure man's salvation and escape from Hell wouldn't he make it clear?

 

 

It is not "clear". There are millions of Christians from scholars to layman who each believe slightly (and sometimes largely) different things about the same Bible and religion. The NT was written down many years after the fact. Impossible for someone to know exactly what someone said 30 years prior, even if he was thought to be God (example: the game telephone) and after being rewritten and certain things kept and other thrown out by the winners of religious debates it is the sole provider of original words of God.

 

Therefore the only way to know what God truly means is to go to/be brought up in the right church that teaches the right things. It is starkly evidence that the common man cannot “get it right” with Christianity on their own. Those who grew up completely separate from the church and explore it later often find it confusing and reminiscent of fairy tales (Demons, angels, strange dreams, men interacting with god(s), a magical place (Heaven), an evil place (Hell) and leave thinking they aren’t missing out

on anything.

 

Of course, it doesn’t have to be clear. It doesn’t have to make sense. It doesn’t have to convince anyone of its truth. Christianity has long felt that its god will make the truth of Christianity clear to those who

follow. Those who cannot just simply believe in a truth and need some kind of proof seem to be destined for the Hell of the Bible. It seems that much of the non-Western world never had a chance.

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Good post. I liked it. It laid it all out bare and out there in a nutshell, succinct.

 

I have this teeny weeny theory that I have explored in here before, that maybe there will never be evidence either for or against God on purpose, so that those who come to him come in faith. Just my own theory, so nevermind me. :HaHa:

 

Faith....that all consuming, irritating word that people in here hate, lol.

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Other things figure into it.

 

http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html#apocalypseofpeter

In this link you can see that the bible canon grew, shrunk, grew, shrunk, and grew, as different church writings became "Books" of varying believability. If the bible were inspired, how could it have changed so much during successive generations from 200 AD to 700 AD?

 

Then you have the issue of baptism, most christians see it as simply a ceremony, but Acts 19 clearly states that you wont get contact with the holy spirit without a "Proper" baptism.

 

And then there's the tons of problems with the old testament canon. Why isn't the Jewish bible the same as our OT? And why are Jewish scholars so dismissive of christianity? Why do they say that jesus did not fulfill hardly any of the prophesies?

 

etc..etc..etc..

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Good post. I liked it. It laid it all out bare and out there in a nutshell, succinct.

 

I have this teeny weeny theory that I have explored in here before, that maybe there will never be evidence either for or against God on purpose, so that those who come to him come in faith. Just my own theory, so nevermind me. :HaHa:

 

Faith....that all consuming, irritating word that people in here hate, lol.

 

 

.... I think explore current findings in neuroscience .... you will find the reason it works for some and not others!

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Christianity doesn’t make sense to the common unchurched man.

 

Therefore the only way to know what God truly means is to go to/be brought up in the right church that teaches the right things. It is starkly evidence that the common man cannot “get it right” with Christianity on their own. Those who grew up completely separate from the church and explore it later often find it confusing and reminiscent of fairy tales (Demons, angels, strange dreams, men interacting with god(s), a magical place (Heaven), an evil place (Hell) and leave thinking they aren’t missing out

on anything.

 

Many of us grew up in the church and left as adults. It didn't make sense to "churched" people either.

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oh, and Kathlene,

 

I know you put a lot of "faith" in faith, but how can faith make a choice?

 

I mean you can have faith in christ, but if there are two different stories about what he wants you to do, then how do you have "faith" that you've chosen the right one, popularity?

 

Which OLD Testament do you have "Faith" in, the 3000 year old Jewish version, or the 400 year old King James 1st of England's version? DO you simply say that because there more millions of christians than there are millions of jews, that you will have faith that the king's version is right?

 

Do you have Faith that god will love you and save you if you follow his word to the very best of your ability and heart and soul? Well it didn't save Uzzah in 2cd Samuel 6:6-8.

 

Do you have faith that god is communicating with you because you have prayed your "john 3:16" prayer? Well several people found out that they didn't have a connection with god yet because they weren't baptized properly in Acts 19.

 

It seems to me that you have faith in your religious friends being right, that's where your faith really is.

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Other things figure into it.

 

http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html#apocalypseofpeter

In this link you can see that the bible canon grew, shrunk, grew, shrunk, and grew, as different church writings became "Books" of varying believability. If the bible were inspired, how could it have changed so much during successive generations from 200 AD to 700 AD?

 

Then you have the issue of baptism, most christians see it as simply a ceremony, but Acts 19 clearly states that you wont get contact with the holy spirit without a "Proper" baptism.

 

And then there's the tons of problems with the old testament canon. Why isn't the Jewish bible the same as our OT? And why are Jewish scholars so dismissive of christianity? Why do they say that jesus did not fulfill hardly any of the prophesies?

 

etc..etc..etc..

 

A Christian would simply say to you "Oh, but God guided the process of the making of the Bible". Or point out that aside from the KJB, there are several versions of the Bible which are in wide use that the translators went back to the original texts, not Latin or King Jimmy, to get their translation "right".

 

I think the Jewish faith "missing" or plain out dismissing the Christian faith is pretty telling. But that is sidestepped a lot too.

 

And to Kathlene, thanks for the post :D I appreciated the respect. I don't always get that from Christians. Yeah, there is never going to be a good way to prove the existence of Christianity or the complete impossibility of it. Just because I don't adhere to the ancient beliefs of the Romans (read: Jupiter, Juno...) doesn't mean I can prove they didn't have truth to them. I could have faith that the Romans were brilliant at some things and therefore since they had such a deep religious belief system that was documented, then they were right on. Just because I think it is just a nice story doesn't mean it isn't true. I totally "get" that a relationship with Jesus feels nice when you are down..but the rest of the time I was just plain unhappy and confused. Apparently that has not been your experience, which if that is true...then awesome! I figure that whatever works for everyone on their journey is good. When doubt and confusion come in, welcome it. It is a part of the human experience.

 

Keep the posts coming! :) I love it!

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Other things figure into it.

 

http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html#apocalypseofpeter

In this link you can see that the bible canon grew, shrunk, grew, shrunk, and grew, as different church writings became "Books" of varying believability. If the bible were inspired, how could it have changed so much during successive generations from 200 AD to 700 AD?

 

A Christian would simply say to you "Oh, but God guided the process of the making of the Bible". Or point out that aside from the KJB, there are several versions of the Bible which are in wide use that the translators went back to the original texts, not Latin or King Jimmy, to get their translation "right".

 

Um, you've completely missed the point. Brakeman isn't talking about simply the things that relate to translational differences. Check out the link provided. Also check out the book "Lost Christianities" by Bart Ehrman.

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If a god existed, then it would seem to follow that the god would be impossible to

understand.

 

The argument has been made that since a god would not have to “make sense” than a religion

created to worship the said god would not have to “make sense” or to be provable.

 

Therefore, there is not a plausible way to prove the truth of Christianity.

 

Feelings and emotions are also not able to be used as proof of a religion’s truth (or the

truth of anything, for that matter).

 

This begs the question: Why would a god create a means to serve and know him and make it hard to understand, reason with, or believe? Yes, he would be impossible to understand, but if he wanted to ensure man's salvation and escape from Hell wouldn't he make it clear?

I'm not trying to "know" the mind of a "god." I'm simply wanting to know if there is any god(s) at all. This would be simple. Reveal yourself to everyone.

 

Taking the "god" of the bible as the model it would be as simple as doing what the god did with Adam in the garden. It appeared on a regular basis to Adam and yet Adam's "free will" was not effected in the slightest.

 

Assuming any other situation all any "god" would need to do is anything similar to that and/or implant the simple knowledge of said god into all humans prior to birth so that they were born with all knowledge of said god(s) in them. No writings. No passing of information by humans to humans at all but when humans discuss said god(s) the information would be identical. The god(s) would simply be "known." They'd be as much a part of us as breathing. The current crop of gods are so far from this it's not even funny.

 

mwc

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A lot of people who have decided to explore and practice Christianity have gone through many of the questions and wonder, and reasonings and so on. I think sometimes what happens is that they will accept the general philosophical aspects of it, and then are usually guided by feelings mostly from there on in.

 

To actually break it down and get into a technical analysis of it doesn't appeal to many people; and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Others will become apologists and even end up believing in certain absurdities (like Young Earth Creationism, e.g.) not realizing that they are trying to make reality line up with these religious views, or that there are two different sources of knowledge, one of them being "the Bible".

 

To truly believe something requires more than just some kind of "faith". There must be some kind of "feedback" at some point; there has to be some kind of connectionism between that person's life and these religious ideals. Whether imaginary or not. Just shrugging and saying "I have faith" is kind of bullshit as an isolated method. There's always more to it.

 

So, there comes a point with all of us, where we stand back, take a long deep breath, peruse all of our experiences, reality, and what religion or Christianity claims, and then ask almost at the baseline of being, "Do I really believe all this?".

 

It's not that important that a religion cannot be disproved. Leprechauns can't be disproved. What is critical though, is that if there can be no certain proof for a thing, then what criteria does one employ ? And is it so wrong to "want" to believe a thing, rather than demand a substantial evidence for everything we consider in life?

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Good post. I liked it. It laid it all out bare and out there in a nutshell, succinct.

 

I have this teeny weeny theory that I have explored in here before, that maybe there will never be evidence either for or against God on purpose, so that those who come to him come in faith. Just my own theory, so nevermind me. :HaHa:

 

Faith....that all consuming, irritating word that people in here hate, lol.

Kathlene,

 

Perhaps you have gone into more detail elsewhere, but there is something puzzling about your "teeny weeny theory." You appear to base it on the premise that "maybe there will never be evidence either for or against God on purpose."

 

If this is true, then wouldn't any religion with any truth claim necessarily have to be accepted "on faith?" Wouldn't you have to have faith in everything for which there is no evidence either for or against?

 

Since there is no evidence for or against the spirits of ancient ancestors, doesn't that place ancestor worship on equal footing with worship of a given version of the Christian god? So, shouldn't I have faith in the spirits of my ancestors AND one of the versions of the Christian god? By the logic of this teeny weeny theory, I should both be in church this morning AND I should leave out bowls of rice for my dead great grandfather. Of course with my family, a plate of pork-chops would be more appropriate.

 

Do you see any problems with my application of your teeny weeny theory? Since there is no evidence either way for god, then faith in anything that makes a claim on your life is in order because while you have no basis for refuting their truth claims, you have no way of supporting your own belief. And thus all religious faith becomes equally valid and maybe equally necessary based on the claims that they make on your life.

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Just my own theory, so nevermind me. GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

 

The ultimate cop-out. I think most xians are slow witted and delusional. Just my own theory, so nevermind me. GONZ9729CustomImage1539775.gif

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Therefore, there is not a plausible way to prove the truth of Christianity.

Ledgehaven,

 

I think what you are pondering here is the apparent arbitrariness of the Christian faith. Since God is so high and holy and beyond our understanding, then there is no explanation or argument that will bring us to a place where we can understand that god enough to say that its existence is proven.

 

I think what Christians have come up with is the equally unsupported, faith-based notion that their god comes to each individual personally either through the created order or as an individual revelation and gives them the chance to accept Christ and the gospel as true. In their minds, some suppress that truth out of sin but other accept that truth and are "saved." The entire thought process is circular and itself arbitrary, but some christians have an answer to the circular nature of their evidence.

 

Their answer is to say, "WOW! But isn't that a terrific circle? That's the best circle I have ever seen! Hop on the ride and experience the circle and you'll never want to get off." I think that brand of apologists is called Presuppositional. I'm not certain.

 

In other words, take a ride on the Good Ship Absurd and see if you like it. Of course I think such people still condemn believers in other religions to hell and what not, but if you can look past that unfairness and get over the cognitive dissonance of engaging in circular reasoning, it may just work. But then again it sounds like b.s. to me.

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Faith can only be in something not known. That's why I think that the cure for faith is knowledge.

 

And BTW: there is plenty of evidence that Christianity is not true. Clear, irrefutable evidence. Christians only say there is no evidence because they refuse to look/listen. The most clear evidence is in the NT itself - if only Christians had the intellectual honesty to see it.

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