Literally Almost Everyone I Know And Love Is A Christian.

[StevoMuso]

Another thing that has come up a lot in the past few days with my family is the issue of meaning. They seem convinced that life without God would be meaningless. I used to think that too, which was one of the reasons I was so desperate to cling to my faith. But I was surprised to find that when I stopped believing, my life still had meaning. They can't seem to understand that, and perhaps it's something that you can never really understand unless you experience it.

 

Christians put a lot of their "meaning" in the rewards they will receive in Heaven - it seems to them to make all of this "suffering" on earth worthwhile. We know that there is no afterlife, that this life is all we get. This knowledge gives immediate and profound meaning to our existence. We know that if we want to make a meaningful contribution to Mankind, we have to do it NOW. We also know that any pleasure/loving/learning/being-with-family etc has to be done NOW while we have the chance. This means that "meaning" for non-Believers is relevant to THIS LIFETIME and much more "meaningful".

 

My sister is still clinging to her faith, but I think she may end up leaving it someday as well.

Seems as if your Dad achieved his goal of raising his kids to think for themselves - so your sister will soon follow in your footsteps. Reason, if given the chance, will always triumph over faith. Be encouraged Little Sister

[Non-Redneck]

 

I think they will respect my decision, but they will never understand. They also still want me to go to church, and I agreed. I still have friends at church that I don't want to give up.

 

I think they are hoping you can be brought back. Maybe you will see the light and god will speak to you in church. That is why they want you to attend church.

[Carmen]

It's sad to think that you would lose those friends without going to the church. I'm not sure how your church is, but I'm suprised you'd be able to go back. I couldn't go back to my church, at least not on a regular basis.

 

Well, it isn't that I would lose them, it's just that I probably wouldn't get to see them anymore and it might cause us to drift apart. Honestly I really don't mind going back to church. The people at my church are friendly and fairly non-judgmental. However, I don't plan on telling them about my de-conversion, at least not until I leave church when I go to college.

 

Christians put a lot of their "meaning" in the rewards they will receive in Heaven - it seems to them to make all of this "suffering" on earth worthwhile. We know that there is no afterlife, that this life is all we get. This knowledge gives immediate and profound meaning to our existence. We know that if we want to make a meaningful contribution to Mankind, we have to do it NOW. We also know that any pleasure/loving/learning/being-with-family etc has to be done NOW while we have the chance. This means that "meaning" for non-Believers is relevant to THIS LIFETIME and much more "meaningful".

 

That is so true! I've tried to explain this to them, but they seem to think that non-Christians are "missing" something in their lives. (This was actually the reason my dad had for becoming a Christian.) But I don't see why belief an afterlife is necessary to have a meaningful life here on earth. I think we create meaning for ourselves. I think part of the reason religion came into existence is because humans needed to find a reason behind our sense that life has meaning. In other words religion doesn't give life meaning, it tries to explain why life itself has meaning.

 

I think they are hoping you can be brought back. Maybe you will see the light and god will speak to you in church. That is why they want you to attend church.

 

That's exactly why. One of my friends who is a hardcore Calvinist, is 100% sure that I will return to the faith one day, because "once saved always saved". I told him that is just impossible. My parents aren't as hardcore Calvinist, but of course they are hoping that I'll return one day as well.

 

When I was a Christian, I would restrict myself from reading things or researching things that would cause me to doubt my faith. It was irrational, I know, but I was trying SO HARD not to doubt. But now that I'm free to research these things, I've become very interested in learning about other religions, the psychology that plays a part in religion, and how all these religions got started. My parents (reluctantly) said I could visit some churches of other denominations and even other religions if I wanted to.

[StevoMuso]

I think we create meaning for ourselves. I think part of the reason religion came into existence is because humans needed to find a reason behind our sense that life has meaning. In other words religion doesn't give life meaning, it tries to explain why life itself has meaning.

This hits the nail on the head - brilliantly put Carmen. You have a remarkable amount of insight, and seem from your posts to be a thoughtful and genuine person. Although your Christian friends will always be dear to you, I think that in time, once you go to college, you will also form long and lasting relationships with like-minded people. Be encouraged Little Sister

[Carmen]

Thanks.

 

For some reason it almost comes as a surprise that people would be so nice on this forum. Maybe I'm still trying to de-program from the christian idea that atheists are cold-hearted and cruel.

[★ Citsonga ★]

For some reason it almost comes as a surprise that people would be so nice on this forum. Maybe I'm still trying to de-program from the christian idea that atheists are cold-hearted and cruel.

 

I know what you mean. I had some prejudices regarding atheists back when I was a christian that were, of course, based on the indoctrination I received from the church and christian family. Having met several atheists since my deconversion, I have found them to be quite different from the way they are portrayed by christians. They are not god-deniers bent on living a "sinful" lifestyle, they are genuinely nice people who care about the betterment of society, and they care about truth.

 

That being said, I have come across a few atheists online who were rather coldhearted, but you can find that with about anything online. The ones I've met personally aren't like that at all, and even most that I've interacted with online seem nice.

[StevoMuso]

For some reason it almost comes as a surprise that people would be so nice on this forum. Maybe I'm still trying to de-program from the christian idea that atheists are cold-hearted and cruel.

 

I know what you mean. I had some prejudices regarding atheists back when I was a christian that were, of course, based on the indoctrination I received from the church and christian family. Having met several atheists since my deconversion, I have found them to be quite different from the way they are portrayed by christians. They are not god-deniers bent on living a "sinful" lifestyle, they are genuinely nice people who care about the betterment of society, and they care about truth.

 

That being said, I have come across a few atheists online who were rather coldhearted, but you can find that with about anything online. The ones I've met personally aren't like that at all, and even most that I've interacted with online seem nice.

Naa - it's all a facade I tell you! We are all evil reprobate cold-hearted mean bastards ... bwuhahahahahaaaaah

[florduh]

For some reason it almost comes as a surprise that people would be so nice on this forum.

Perhaps we're just fattening you up for the kill. We ran out of fresh babies last week.

[StevoMuso]

For some reason it almost comes as a surprise that people would be so nice on this forum.

Perhaps we're just fattening you up for the kill. We ran out of fresh babies last week.

LOL

[ColorMixer]

Lol reprobate, love the word, didn't know if many other people knew what it meant.

[StevoMuso]

Lol reprobate, love the word, didn't know if many other people knew what it meant.

I think "reprobate" means "one who is beyond salvation" as far as I remember (my daughter borrowed my dictionary). But you are correct, the word has a certain ring to it and is one of my favorites too. I also enjoy the term "the credulous" which I use often to describe Believers, and its brother "credulity" also has a nice feel.

 

Ah the joy of words - don't you just love-em?

[Carmen]

Perhaps we're just fattening you up for the kill. We ran out of fresh babies last week.

 

LOL! Help! The atheists are dragging me away! Get out the tar and feathers!

[Carmen]

Here's a quick update on my family. We were having a discussion last night, and things got emotional. My dad suddenly got really angry totally out of the blue. He just started yelling at me that he didn't know and he didn't have the answers to my questions, and that he wished I'd stop pushing him. He was upset that I was asking questions that he couldn't answer. I asked him why he was so afraid to question his own faith and what he believed, and he got even more angry and said "I just don't think about these things!"

 

Then my mom tried to tell me that "we feel like we've failed as parents". I tried to tell her that they HADN'T failed as parents, because they were the ones who taught me the importance of learning and thinking for yourself!

[StevoMuso]

Here's a quick update on my family. We were having a discussion last night, and things got emotional. My dad suddenly got really angry totally out of the blue. He just started yelling at me that he didn't know and he didn't have the answers to my questions, and that he wished I'd stop pushing him. He was upset that I was asking questions that he couldn't answer. I asked him why he was so afraid to question his own faith and what he believed, and he got even more angry and said "I just don't think about these things!"

 

Then my mom tried to tell me that "we feel like we've failed as parents". I tried to tell her that they HADN'T failed as parents, because they were the ones who taught me the importance of learning and thinking for yourself!

Aah Carmen. This kind of conflict really hurts, and I feel the pain with you. Be encouraged, it's all still very new for them, but they will come to see in time that they have raised a fine, respectable, moral, hard-working, intelligent, honest and sincere daughter. Hang in there precious sister, and feel free to vent here on the forum whenever you need to let off some steam.

[ClaraOlive]

Here's a quick update on my family. We were having a discussion last night, and things got emotional. My dad suddenly got really angry totally out of the blue. He just started yelling at me that he didn't know and he didn't have the answers to my questions, and that he wished I'd stop pushing him. He was upset that I was asking questions that he couldn't answer. I asked him why he was so afraid to question his own faith and what he believed, and he got even more angry and said "I just don't think about these things!"

 

Then my mom tried to tell me that "we feel like we've failed as parents". I tried to tell her that they HADN'T failed as parents, because they were the ones who taught me the importance of learning and thinking for yourself!

 

I'm glad that you decided to tell your parents.

 

When I was your age, I decided to keep quiet until I was out of the house, but I found myself having to do more and more in order to not be found out. Of COURSE, a good Christian like me would want to go to Christian college... and date Christian boys and have Christian friends... and go to Bible study every week... and I thought that I could do just a little bit more and then a little bit more to be what I was expected to be.

 

And then I found myself as a young adult at a college where I didn't fit in, with no experience having relationships with "normal" people, involved in activities I despised, completely sheltered. Dropping out of college seemed like the worst option (and probably was), but I had a breakdown trying to extricate myself from the situation after having lied to my parents for years and having no non-Christian friends. I believe it would have been much better to have told the truth years ago as a teenager before things got bottlenecked the way they did.

 

I'm sorry that your father yelled at you. Try to see your parents with compassion, because if they're "real" Christians (that is, if they truly believe the tenets of their religion), then they believe that their own child is going to burn in Hell forever. It's not your job to shelter them or to change for them, but they aren't really angry and upset with YOU, but at the cognitive dissonance that they're experiencing.

 

The average evangelical Christian is going to try to avoid viewing the unsaved as real people. That's also probably a major reason that so many of them don't form close relationships outside the church. There's themselves, their family, their church friends... possibly there are some evil anti-Christian atheists in their imaginations... but it's my impression that most people are just a nameless, faceless mass of non-persons for them. A name or face can be conjured up in a missionary setting to remind them that they're supposed to care about the eternal destiny of the non-saved... but mostly they don't see non-Christians as real. After all, if one truly believed in Hell AND truly loved other people, wouldn't they be compelled to evangelize at every possible opportunity? While I may be annoyed with the noisy evangelist and prefer to deal with the moderate, timid Christian in everyday life, I have a sort of respect for the evangelist and nothing but contempt for the silent Christian.

 

But back to your family... what can tear their compartmentalization apart is having to realize that you're a real person who they love, and you're also the face of the non-believer. Right now, they have to decide whether they can put up more walls to make you abstract, or if they can view you as a good person who they love and respect but who is hell-bound, or unlikely to realize the ridiculousness of their religion altogether. So I think that the best thing you can do is to be respectful and non-confrontational without going back on your beliefs. If they can make you angry or nasty, then they can justify to themselves that you have a "sin problem", but if you refuse to get caught up in arguments or drama and let them know that you love them, I think that no matter what happens, you won't regret how you handled the situation.

[Seeking]

When I was a Christian, I would restrict myself from reading things or researching things that would cause me to doubt my faith. It was irrational, I know, but I was trying SO HARD not to doubt.

 

This was exactly me, which might explain why it took 20 long years from the first doubts to the deconversion.

[Seeking]

The average evangelical Christian is going to try to avoid viewing the unsaved as real people. That's also probably a major reason that so many of them don't form close relationships outside the church. There's themselves, their family, their church friends... possibly there are some evil anti-Christian atheists in their imaginations... but it's my impression that most people are just a nameless, faceless mass of non-persons for them. A name or face can be conjured up in a missionary setting to remind them that they're supposed to care about the eternal destiny of the non-saved... but mostly they don't see non-Christians as real. After all, if one truly believed in Hell AND truly loved other people, wouldn't they be compelled to evangelize at every possible opportunity? While I may be annoyed with the noisy evangelist and prefer to deal with the moderate, timid Christian in everyday life, I have a sort of respect for the evangelist and nothing but contempt for the silent Christian.

 

I've been thinking a lot about this recently, in relation to my parents. My mom lives a completely sheltered life - every single one of her friends is a friend from church, and the only activities she's involved in outside the home are church-based Bible studies. My dad owns a small business and has to interact with clients and employees who aren't Christians, but outside of work, every interaction comes from the church. It has been this way my entire life.

 

My parents are Calvinists and completely believe in election and predestination. With their church friends, they are giving and helpful. However, they are the most uncompassionate people I know when it comes to the suffering of non-Christians. For example, they hold to the conviction that anyone who is on welfare is a lazy good-for-nothing. They completely believe that every single mother who receives state aid is a slut who seeks out men to impregnate her so she can have more illegitimate children and thereby take more money from good, hardworking people like my dad. They give 10% of their money to their church to support their pastor (who has 9 children) and missionaries, but I don't think they have EVER donated to a cause outside the church.

 

Sadly, because I was raised in that environment and trained to see the world the way they do - to view every suffering and hardship as the result of sin - it is taking a lot of effort for me to de-program myself and become a more compassionate person. But I'm trying, and I think (hope) I'm making progress.

[Carmen]

ClaraOlive, your observations are spot on. There is definitely cognitive dissonance going on. My dad apologized later and admitted that he wasn't angry at me, he was more angry at himself. You're right, most of their friends are Christian. My mom said that she feels uncomfortable around non-Christians. She said that she was afraid that she wouldn't be able to relate to me anymore, but I reassured her that I am still the same person inside and I still love them both very much. Pretty much all of my close friends are Christian as well, and every activity I go to is Christian based. I'm a little afraid that my experience in college will be somewhat like yours. Even though I've "come out of the closet" so to speak, I know that I'm still very sheltered and naive. I'm not an incredibly outgoing person either, so I'm going to need to learn how to get out of my shell and meet different kinds of people.

 

We actually talked about the evangelism last night. I can definitely relate to what you said. Obsessive evangelizers are annoying, but at least they are sincere and they really want to help the people they believe will burn forever in hell. If you really believe in that, how much do you have to hate somebody to not tell them about heaven and hell? The truth is, when I was a Christian, I barely witnessed at all. I think this was because deep down I didn't really believe it. My parents are more of the timid, silent Christians. I asked them if they really believed in this place called hell, why wouldn't they be spending everyone moment trying to save the lost? It leads me to believe that deep down they don't believe their own religion. Both of them seem very hesitant to discuss hell. In the course of all our discussions, they've never once told me "Carmen, you are headed for eternal damnation." I think they just don't want to think about the subject.

 

I'm hoping that they'll come to understand. I know that they've definitely been a lot more nonjudgmental that many other Christians I know are going to be when I tell them. I just feel so bad knowing how much this is hurting them.

 

For example, they hold to the conviction that anyone who is on welfare is a lazy good-for-nothing. They completely believe that every single mother who receives state aid is a slut who seeks out men to impregnate her so she can have more illegitimate children and thereby take more money from good, hardworking people like my dad.

 

That sounds all too familiar.

 

I can see what you mean about becoming a more compassionate person. I still find myself involuntarily starting to pray for someone if I hear that they are going through trouble. Then I think realize that what I'm doing is completely useless, and I could actually be DOING something to help the person instead of leaving it to my Imaginary Sky Father.

[★ Citsonga ★]

My parents... hold to the conviction that anyone who is on welfare is a lazy good-for-nothing. They completely believe that every single mother who receives state aid is a slut who seeks out men to impregnate her so she can have more illegitimate children and thereby take more money from good, hardworking people like my dad.

 

Oh, so my good christian wife was a "slut" for accepting WIC when we were struggling financially while I worked hard at a full-time job. Bet she'd love to hear that one! (Ironically, if it hadn't been for religion, I would have pursued a better career and wouldn't have wasted 10+% of my income on church donations, in which case we wouldn't have needed the WIC assistance! AUGH!)

 

To your parents' credit, there are lazy people who work the system, and it burns me too. But to suggest that everyone who gets assistance is like that is just plain stupid.

[Seeking]

To your parents' credit, there are lazy people who work the system, and it burns me too. But to suggest that everyone who gets assistance is like that is just plain stupid.

I completely agree with you, which is why it is so frustrating to spend time with my dad. His one and only favorite topic of discussion is politics, and he just parrots whatever Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck say.

[Carmen]

Today I had a conversation with two of my friends about the issues I had with the Bible and Christianity. One was enthusiastically talking about how she loved to study history because "you could just see God's hand working throughout all of history!" That was just too much for me, so I had to speak my mind. These are two of my closest friends who have know about my doubts for some time, but I haven't yet told them that I consider myself an atheist. They are both very intelligent, rational people, but it's amazing how they are completely stubborn and unmovable when it comes to Christianity. Even when I presented them with the most disgusting verses in the Bible, they were completely ok with them and justified them by saying either that 1. God is serious about sin and must judge it harshly 2. That was just the culture back then and 3. You're taking it out of context.

 

They just were completely blind to the monstrous things God says in the Bible. The genocide in the Bible didn't bother them at all. They used the typical argument that God used Israel as a tool to judge evil nations, and they couldn't see past that argument. I also pointed out that a lot of the "Christian values" of today aren't even consistent throughout the Bible. I pointed out the polygamy in the Bible, and one of my friends said that god always wanted marriage to a covenant between one man and one woman, but that polygamy was just the culture back then and God had to work with a sinful people. They were also convinced that it is natural and right for a women to submit to her husband, backing it up by Christian (of course) psychology about marriage.

 

It's driving me nuts!!! No matter what I said, the Bible was right and I was wrong! They seem to think that I'm just "looking for contradictions", and that it should be obvious to me that the Bible is the truth.

[Carmen]

Another thing is that they kept on making very iffy statements for supposed proofs of Christianity and they are 100% sure that these reasons will convince me.

 

"Well of course there had to be a creator god, the universe is just too complex and fine tuned to come out of nothing. It takes just as much faith to believe in evolution as it does to believe in God."

 

"Christianity is obviously different and set apart from the other religions."

 

"The Bible is the most historically accurate document of the ancient world. There is so much proof for the validity of the Bible that it should be obvious to anyone who studies it that the Bible is true."

 

"There is no way the apostles could have made up the resurrection and died for something they knew was a myth. This proves the truth of their accounts."

 

 

Grrrrrr...

[★ Citsonga ★]

one of my friends said that god always wanted marriage to a covenant between one man and one woman, but that polygamy was just the culture back then and God had to work with a sinful people.

 

Oh, so gawd HAD to allow polygamy to be able to work with the people? He was LIMITED in what he could do?

 

Yet he couldn't allow homosexuality in order to work with those people? And he couldn't allow kids to make disrespectful comments to work with them?

 

He had to have people stoned to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, but generation after generation could indulge in the sin of polygamy with no divine intervention?

 

Damn, christians can be sooooo stupid!

[Carmen]

That's EXACTLY what I told them!!! It's such an obvious contradiction! They said that the Israelites had to have all of these harsh laws to show them that "they could never measure up to God's standard" and that "God was serious about sin". So god was serious about eating shellfish, wearing two different types of clothing together, and cursing your parents, but he wasn't serious about polygamy, slavery, rape, and genocide??!!

 

And yet after I said all of that to them, they still seemed to think that I was the moron who couldn't see the obvious truth.

[Carmen]

They also said that God had always made it clear from the Genesis that it was to be one man and one women, and that it was obvious that if you had sex with more than one person, you were committing adultery. But God just had to "work with the culture." The horrible logic just astounds me...

 

And the crazy thing is is that they are actually quite intelligent otherwise. I don't know why I can see this so clearly and they can't.