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Goodbye Jesus

Preachers Who Are Not Believers.


Mriana

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It has been said, the way to disbelief is to actually study religion. Dennett has done a study on preachers who don't believe and it's been published:

 

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/Non-Believing-Clergy.pdf

 

Pharyngula (PZ Meyers) mentioned this study: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/03/priests_who_dont_believe.php

 

So the next time someone tries to say that most scholars believe there was a historical Jesus or some other silly little thing, this study might be something to show them. There are more non-believing ministers and ex-ministers than Xians would like to believe.

 

Even so, it would be interesting to hear from the "Peanut Gallery" of Xianity- that is Xians, on this matter. Many maybe in for a real shocker or they could continue to be in denial. Who knows. The responses will be interesting that is for sure.

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There are more non-believing ministers and ex-ministers than Xians would like to believe.

Mriana for me this was one of the most disturbing things to learn after leaving it behind.

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I didn't find it disturbing as much as I found that it begs the question as to why they are continuing to reinforce the myth on believers instead of coming out with the truth. That is what I found disturbing. It is like they are part of controlling the masses. Why else would they continue to perpetuate a myth if they didn't believe it?

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I didn't find it disturbing as much as I found that it begs the question as to why they are continuing to reinforce the myth on believers instead of coming out with the truth. That is what I found disturbing. It is like they are part of controlling the masses. Why else would they continue to perpetuate a myth if they didn't believe it?

 

For a start, it's a nice easy job with good working conditions, you don't need to be "bright", just have the power of the tongue. You become part of an "old boys" network that gives you all the support that you'll ever need, even when you commit misdemeanors(like sexually abusing children) most times you don't lose your job.

 

What else could they do for a living?

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I didn't find it disturbing as much as I found that it begs the question as to why they are continuing to reinforce the myth on believers instead of coming out with the truth. That is what I found disturbing. It is like they are part of controlling the masses. Why else would they continue to perpetuate a myth if they didn't believe it?

 

For a start, it's a nice easy job with good working conditions, you don't need to be "bright", just have the power of the tongue. You become part of an "old boys" network that gives you all the support that you'll ever need, even when you commit misdemeanors(like sexually abusing children) most times you don't lose your job.

 

What else could they do for a living?

I found a quote in that article posted that supports this. One "non-believing" preacher said, "I realize that if I come out a little more, I may be burning bridges in terms of my ability to earn a living this way."

 

Some seem to have a problem with letting go of the word "God" even thought its meaning is completely nonreligious.

 

Upton Sinclair: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

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I didn't find it disturbing as much as I found that it begs the question as to why they are continuing to reinforce the myth on believers instead of coming out with the truth. That is what I found disturbing. It is like they are part of controlling the masses. Why else would they continue to perpetuate a myth if they didn't believe it?

 

I think in at least some cases, it's because they desperately want to believe it, they just can't. So they feel guilty and blame themselves and hope that maybe this time God will say something to them.

 

And I think in a few cases, they are genuinely psychopathic. Like Glenn Beck.

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What else could they do for a living?

 

Well, we know of at least one who became a psychologist- Dr Stephen Uhl. I'm sure if they really wanted to, they could do something else for a living or study for a new vocation and move on to a different field when they are finished with their studies.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, we know of at least one who became a psychologist- Dr Stephen Uhl. I'm sure if they really wanted to, they could do something else for a living or study for a new vocation and move on to a different field when they are finished with their studies.

 

Guys - excellent thread; because conservative evangelical believers have been saying this very same thing for nearly 100 years. Many men have pastored churches and taught at seminaries - institutions that even required an annual signing of a doctrinal statement - that these men didn't believe. But because of their lack of integrity, and their desire to have that pastoral or academic lifestyle, they consciously signed the document.

 

Many conservative seminaries and churches have, for the past two decades - begun the process to dismiss these liars.

 

If they don't believe the Bible is God's inspired, inerrant, authoritative self-revelation - hey, that's their prerogative. But have the courage of your convictions, and admit who you are, what you believe, what you practice, etc. Man up!!

 

But Christians are not surprised at this phenomenon - it was prophesied.

 

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Mat 7:16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?

 

Act 20:27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God.

Act 20:28 Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

Act 20:29 I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

Act 20:30 and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.

 

2Tim 3:5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.

2Ti 3:6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,

2Ti 3:7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 3:8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith.

2Ti 3:9 But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

 

Titus 1:10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party.

Titus 1:11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.

 

1Tim 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

1Ti 1:4 nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith.

1Ti 1:5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

1Ti 1:6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,

1Ti 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.

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  • 1 month later...

It's about the job.

The Roman Catholic Church itself was established on this concept. It was a means to an extravagant living for the ruling families. If you think of it economically, they were making a living, and so was the church born.

 

Earlier christian models were less this way, I think, but it stands to reason that some people have always seen it as a way to go from not having a living to having one.

 

Recently I even had something like that on a list of 20 possible career moves to make, musician, christian or country. It's job security, which I don't have right now.

Too bad I just blew my cover. Oh well, I guess it's IT for me.

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It's about the job.

The Roman Catholic Church itself was established on this concept. It was a means to an extravagant living for the ruling families. If you think of it economically, they were making a living, and so was the church born.

 

Earlier christian models were less this way, I think, but it stands to reason that some people have always seen it as a way to go from not having a living to having one.

 

Recently I even had something like that on a list of 20 possible career moves to make, musician, christian or country. It's job security, which I don't have right now.

Too bad I just blew my cover. Oh well, I guess it's IT for me.

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

Upton Sinclair

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It's about the job.

The Roman Catholic Church itself was established on this concept. It was a means to an extravagant living for the ruling families. If you think of it economically, they were making a living, and so was the church born.

 

Earlier christian models were less this way, I think, but it stands to reason that some people have always seen it as a way to go from not having a living to having one.

 

Recently I even had something like that on a list of 20 possible career moves to make, musician, christian or country. It's job security, which I don't have right now.

Too bad I just blew my cover. Oh well, I guess it's IT for me.

 

And let me say that I agree with what you have said - esp re: the history of Christian ministry. Yes, the RCC corrupted the clergy, made them fund-raisers (selling indulgences), took the few that wanted to preach the Gospel and forced them into sequestered monasteries, made them vow to celibacy (which they couldn't maintain so they preyed upon young women and boys). In fact, history records that one district mandated that the priests keep concubines, so they would stop trying to seduce their wives, sisters, and daughters.

 

The RCC has so much to apologize for, so much evil they have hidden or conducted outright (the Spanish and Dutch Inquisitions), and yet they remain so self-righteous. I feel sorry for all the children who were abused by RCC priests - and I am glad that these families are finally receiving at least some kind of restitution (although it is only $$).

 

I believe that ALL CLERGY MUST BE HELD TO HIGHER STANDARDS OF CONDUCT. If they don;t like that - they should never have pursued ministry.

 

Christian ministry is a calling - not a job.

 

Well said, sir.

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I think I ran into one of those jokers about 5 years ago.

 

When my wife and i were dating i lived in another state and would visit her on the weekends. She started going to this non-denominational church and within a few months it got a new minister. Immediately this guy started hammering away at the parishoners pockets. Most of the emphasis was on funding his daughters "missionary experience" in Africa. I started to get suspicious when he said she needed 25k for a car. I don't know about the rest of you but I've been to africa and the mighty dollar goes a long way there. Regardless, isn't "frugality" the word of the day for missionaries? Once that goal was reached he started in on purchasing some land to build a new church cause the present one was "barely sound". That was 5 years ago and it still stands albiet inhabited by a different congregation. About the time he started soliciting for "commitment signatures" I challenged him and we met at his office. Turns out he was a professional financial advisor on the side AND his excesses in life had at one time landed him 4 million in debt which "the good lord had erased in a flurry of benevolence". In his office I challenged his faith, the chrisitian faith, and his integrity. He immediately whipped out those Lee Strobel books and challenged me to find fault with them. In fact, to every single challenge I made all he could do was regurgitate something from those books. I'm thinkin' anyone who takes the role of minister surely posseses enough knowledge about their faith to be able to defend it from their own experience and with some original thought. The man was a fraud and eventually the congregation dropped from 100+ memebers down to a handlful of elderly faithful. Last I heard they were meeting at an old theater.

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But Christians are not surprised at this phenomenon - it was prophesied.

 

(Babble blah blah)

 

Wow, the Holy Babble said people LIE? IT'S A FUCKING PROPHESY, OMG!! *falls over and gibbers*

 

Seriously? For real? Predicting a common human behavior in your own ranks is PROPHESY?

I prophesy that a politician will be caught in a sex scandal again.

I SPEAK FOR GAWD!

:loser:

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But Christians are not surprised at this phenomenon - it was prophesied.

 

(Babble blah blah)

 

Wow, the Holy Babble said people LIE? IT'S A FUCKING PROPHESY, OMG!! *falls over and gibbers*

 

Seriously? For real? Predicting a common human behavior in your own ranks is PROPHESY?

I prophesy that a politician will be caught in a sex scandal again.

I SPEAK FOR GAWD!

:loser:

 

Your point is well-taken. It is an "easy" prophesy (and probably 'prediction' is a better word) to make that men will fail morally.

 

However, since pastors are supposed to be those "called of God" to serve His church and people selflessly - as modeled by the LORD Jesus Christ and Peter and Paul, etc >> it should shock us to some degree when they fail so miserably.

 

But we should never be surprised - after all, King David commited adultery and conspiracy for murder. And yet he was "a man after God's own heart."

 

We all need to watch over our hearts.

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However, since pastors are supposed to be those "called of God" to serve His church and people selflessly - as modeled by the LORD Jesus Christ and Peter and Paul, etc >> it should shock us to some degree when they fail so miserably.

 

Not really. Power corrupts, and predicting that the powers of the church will fail and be hypocrites isn't a prophesy. It's common fucking sense.

 

But we should never be surprised - after all, King David commited adultery and conspiracy for murder. And yet he was "a man after God's own heart."

 

We all need to watch over our hearts.

 

So your god makes a habit out of using cheats, liars, and murderers as his chosen examples. Says a lot about your god.

 

I think I can look after my heart much better without interference from your "god."

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It has been said, the way to disbelief is to actually study religion. Dennett has done a study on preachers who don't believe and it's been published:

 

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/Non-Believing-Clergy.pdf

 

Pharyngula (PZ Meyers) mentioned this study: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/03/priests_who_dont_believe.php

 

So the next time someone tries to say that most scholars believe there was a historical Jesus or some other silly little thing, this study might be something to show them. There are more non-believing ministers and ex-ministers than Xians would like to believe.

 

Even so, it would be interesting to hear from the "Peanut Gallery" of Xianity- that is Xians, on this matter. Many maybe in for a real shocker or they could continue to be in denial. Who knows. The responses will be interesting that is for sure.

 

Reminds me of politics. How many had aspirations to straiten the system out before they joined it?

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But Christians are not surprised at this phenomenon - it was prophesied.

 

(Babble blah blah)

 

Wow, the Holy Babble said people LIE? IT'S A FUCKING PROPHESY, OMG!! *falls over and gibbers*

 

Seriously? For real? Predicting a common human behavior in your own ranks is PROPHESY?

I prophesy that a politician will be caught in a sex scandal again.

I SPEAK FOR GAWD!

:loser:

 

 

However, since pastors are supposed to be those "called of God" to serve His church and people selflessly - as modeled by the LORD Jesus Christ and Peter and Paul, etc >> it should shock us to some degree when they fail so miserably.

 

 

Mathew 7:23 He will say I never knew you.

 

He is right! I never shook his hand. Jesus is not the father or the holy spirit-- he is a man. If he didn't roll up and say hello then you never knew the man.

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'rayskidude' date='29 May 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1275154076' post='567803']

However, since pastors are supposed to be those "called of God" to serve His church and people selflessly - as modeled by the LORD Jesus Christ and Peter and Paul, etc >> it should shock us to some degree when they fail so miserably.

 

Not really. Power corrupts, and predicting that the powers of the church will fail and be hypocrites isn't a prophesy. It's common fucking sense.

 

No - that response would be sheer cynicism. There are a myriad of evangelical church leaders who have lived exemplary lives, and that is the norm.

 

But we should never be surprised - after all, King David commited adultery and conspiracy for murder. And yet he was "a man after God's own heart." We all need to watch over our hearts.

 

So your god makes a habit out of using cheats, liars, and murderers as his chosen examples. Says a lot about your god.

 

It certainly says that He is gracious and forgiving to all who seek repentance and faith.

 

I think I can look after my heart much better without interference from your "god.

 

As is evidenced by your frequent use of the F-bomb in human discourse.

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There are a myriad of evangelical church leaders who have lived exemplary lives, and that is the norm.

:lmao: WHO???? :lmao:

 

 

It certainly says that He is gracious and forgiving to all who seek repentance and faith.

But if you don't believe in his zombie son, YOU WILL BUUUUUUURRRRRNNN!!! Yeah, gracious. Forgiving. Sure. As long as you have no doubt in his insane story, you can rape and kill.

 

I think I can look after my heart much better without interference from your "god.

 

As is evidenced by your frequent use of the F-bomb in human discourse.

Yeah, the state of my heart and being is really tested by my language. You're fucking petty.

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'rayskidude' date='29 May 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1275154076' post='567803']

However, since pastors are supposed to be those "called of God" to serve His church and people selflessly - as modeled by the LORD Jesus Christ and Peter and Paul, etc >> it should shock us to some degree when they fail so miserably.

 

Not really. Power corrupts, and predicting that the powers of the church will fail and be hypocrites isn't a prophesy. It's common fucking sense.

 

No - that response would be sheer cynicism. There are a myriad of evangelical church leaders who have lived exemplary lives, and that is the norm.

 

But we should never be surprised - after all, King David commited adultery and conspiracy for murder. And yet he was "a man after God's own heart." We all need to watch over our hearts.

 

So your god makes a habit out of using cheats, liars, and murderers as his chosen examples. Says a lot about your god.

 

It certainly says that He is gracious and forgiving to all who seek repentance and faith.

 

I think I can look after my heart much better without interference from your "god.

 

As is evidenced by your frequent use of the F-bomb in human discourse.

 

Which is better Ray?

 

The honest use of the F-bomb or the deliberate avoidance of a question that blows your beliefs out of the water?

 

No. Don't answer that question. I was putting it rhetorically. Instead, answer the one I put to you, way back in January.

 

Thanks.

 

BAA.

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