Need Help With The "jesus" Fish

[mwc]

Normally I can track the origins of things down but I'm having some problems with this one and thought I'd see if anyone here could help me out.

 

I've got it in my head to track down the origin of that "jesus" fish (the ichthus/ichthys). No problem, right? It's one of xianity's super-duper special symbols so there must be tons and tons of stuff on this thing. Well, not really.

 

I found the story where it's a "secret handshake" where xians would draw part of the fish and the other would draw the rest and then they knew they were in the same club. Nice. But I can't find a source for this. It's like a xian urban legend. I looked until I got fed up going in circles. I don't care if it's in the first Google return, and I look stupid for not seeing it, but if I can get a solid source for this it would be appreciated.

 

The other thing is that it's part of the super special "jesus" acrostic. But that seems to be late. And it seems to be almost made up to cover up the fact they're using the little eight-spoke wheel from Buddhism (well, and most every other religion actually). It's not a fish...it's a wheel. The word is "ichthys" and means "fish" but when you're drawing a wheel with the letters I'm just not sure that counts as a "jesus" fish.

 

I'm more inclined to accept the idea that it's a screwed up alpha. That makes more sense. Especially when I see pics of the fish they look like fish and not little alphas (not always). And the earliest ones are on everything including Jewish, Roman (pagan) and (believed) xian things. People were fish (dolphin) happy. I'm not sold on this fish idea being a "secret handshake" for early xians but maybe if I read the source I'll change my mind.

 

It would also mean ignoring the thing in Deuteronomy 4(?) about not making little fish/bird symbols. The earliest xians were still all caught up in these laws and I can't see blowing off the whole "images" thing out of the gate.

 

Anyhow, I'm looking for the earliest primary source(s) for all this but especially the "handshake" tradition thing. Thanks.

 

mwc

[florduh]

You made me curious about this piece of folklore so I started investigating.

 

The first thing I found:

Above, we pointed out the Age of Pisces coincides with the time of Jesus' birth. But this is no coincidence. Like the cross, the fish is evidence of God's prefiguring, to prepare humanity for the great sacrifice of Jesus.

So, God "prefigured" the fish. All cleared up now?

[Neon Genesis]

There's a historical fact MWC doesn't know? Blasphemy!

[StevoMuso]

It's a pagan symbol so search under "pagan symbols" for more accurate info.

 

The best one I found was here.

 

FISH SYMBOL - Also known as the Ichthys Symbol (Greek for fish). Another adaptation of a pagan symbol into Christianity. The fish was used worldwide as a religious symbol associated with the pagan "Great Mother Goddess." It was meant to represent the outline of her vulva. It is linked to the Age of Pisces and also has associations with the Hindu deity Vishnu but more so with Dagon the fish-god of the Philistines. The name Dagon is derived from dag which means fish. There have also been discoveries of the fish-god in sculptures found in Nineveh Assyria. Dagon is also found in the Scriptures (Judges 16:23-24; 1 Samuel 5:2-5).

[mwc]

So, God "prefigured" the fish. All cleared up now?

Yes. It's got that fish stank all over it.

 

mwc

[mwc]

There's a historical fact MWC doesn't know? Blasphemy!

I already feel ashamed. But if it means getting to the bottom of this "xian handshake" mystery then it might just be worth it (maybe ).

 

mwc

[mwc]

It was meant to represent the outline of her vulva.

I think I'm starting to understand why the handshake was kept secret.

 

mwc

[Shyone]

Here's another (probable) urban xian legend:

 

The early churches gathered secretly and used the fish symbol to indicate the house to meet at.

 

During the early days of Christianity, Christians were often put to death for practicing their faith, so they worshiped in secret places. A fish painted on the outside door of a house let other Christians know that they would be safe and welcome inside.

[mwc]

Here's another (probable) urban xian legend:

 

The early churches gathered secretly and used the fish symbol to indicate the house to meet at.

 

During the early days of Christianity, Christians were often put to death for practicing their faith, so they worshiped in secret places. A fish painted on the outside door of a house let other Christians know that they would be safe and welcome inside.

Right. I found a lot of this type of stuff but it was all unsourced.

 

mwc

[oddbird1963]

I just thought IXTHUS (iota, chi, theta, upsion, sigma) was a convenient acrostic.

 

Jesus = Ihsus (starts with Iota

Christ = Christos starts with the Greek letter Chi.

God's = theos, starts with the Greek letter theta.

Son = Uios = Greek word for son. Starts with the Greek letter upsilon.

Saviour = Soterios or something like that. Starts with the letter sigma.

 

Put all the first letters together and you have the Greek word for fish.

 

Pardon me, all you Greek experts, if I butchered the transliterations and stuff.

[Ouroboros]

MWC,

 

There is another possible explanation. If Greek philosophy had influenced the early Christians, it's possible that the Pythagoreans' dyad was part of making the fish symbol.

 

The dyad is two circles drawn according to some basic mathematical relationship.

 

 

If you look at a part of it, it makes the fish symbol. And why would anyone pick just that part? Because that also has a mathematical foundation. Look into Vesica Piscis (link).

 

(Chalice Well)

 

(Codex Brushal, Christ in Majesty)

 

I read somewhere that the monad (a circle with a dot inside) was the symbol for God according to the Pythagoreans, and the dyad was the symbol for matter or second order of creation.

 

It's possible that some philosophically educated Christian started the use of the circles (or part of it, which makes the fish symbol) to represent "God as a man."

 

It's a stretch, I know, but I read this somewhere a while back but can't find the link anymore.

 

Another note, the number 153 is important to the Vesica Piscis, and that number appears in John 21:11, as the number of fish they caught.

 

Anyone doubt there are connections between mysticism, paganism, and Christianity now?

[Kyle]

It's a pagan symbol so search under "pagan symbols" for more accurate info.

 

The best one I found was here.

 

FISH SYMBOL - Also known as the Ichthys Symbol (Greek for fish). Another adaptation of a pagan symbol into Christianity. The fish was used worldwide as a religious symbol associated with the pagan "Great Mother Goddess." It was meant to represent the outline of her vulva. It is linked to the Age of Pisces and also has associations with the Hindu deity Vishnu but more so with Dagon the fish-god of the Philistines. The name Dagon is derived from dag which means fish. There have also been discoveries of the fish-god in sculptures found in Nineveh Assyria. Dagon is also found in the Scriptures (Judges 16:23-24; 1 Samuel 5:2-5).

 

Kinda like this...

 

[Ouroboros]

And here's a very interesting tidbit of information:

Neopythagoreanism

Main article: Neopythagoreanism

 

Neopythagoreanism was a revival in the 2nd century BC—2nd century AD period, of various ideas traditionally associated with the followers of Pythagoras, the Pythagoreans. Notable Neopythagoreans include first century Apollonius of Tyana and Moderatus of Gades. Middle and Neo-Platonists such as Numenius and Plotinus also showed some Neopythagorean influence.

 

They emphasized the distinction between the soul and the body. God must be worshipped spiritually by prayer and the will to be good. The soul must be freed from its material surroundings by an ascetic habit of life. Bodily pleasures and all sensuous impulses must be abandoned as detrimental to the spiritual purity of the soul. God is the principle of good; Matter the groundwork of Evil. The non-material universe was regarded as the sphere of mind or spirit.[12]

 

In 1915, a subterranean basilica where 1st century Neo-Pythagoreans held their meetings was discovered near Porta Maggiore on Via Praenestina, Rome. The groundplan shows a basilica with three naves and an apse similarly to early Christian basilicas that did not appear until much later, in the 4th century. The vaults are decorated with white stuccoes symbolizing Neopythagorean beliefs but its exact meaning remains a subject of debate.[13]

Wikipedia. "Pythagoreanism." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoreanism#Neopythagoreanism

 

The time fits.

The ideas fit.

One key person, Apollonius, fits too.

 

Another note: I read somewhere that philosophers were banned by Nero, which could lead to suspect the idea of "secret handshake" came about for the Neo-pythagoreans/Christians.

[Phanta]

I briefly attended a Christian women's house meeting, and there learned this story. It is interesting, after taking for granted the story all of these years, not to be able to pinpoint a source.

 

This reminds me...

 

Recently a beloved Christian friend told me the 12 Day of Christmas song was originally a code song for Christians during some period of persecution to give each other hope. She heard this from an elder at a local Catholic parish.

 

Me being me, I asked, "Did you check that story out?" Her response was flustered. It hadn't occurred to her to find out if it was true. The moment was surreal, like I had permeated some warm, protective membrane. She clearly didn't want to check it out, so I let it drop. I even offloaded some 12 Days of Christmas Christmas decorations onto her a couple weeks later after doing some cleaning. I thought they would make her happy.

 

But...me being me, I poked around the internet. Snopes notes that references to this being a Christian code song during one of their "persecutions" emerged only in the late 1990s and there is no further evidence that the 12 days of Christmas was a Christian code song. In other words, it's unsourced. Shared fantasy-turned-tradition-turning-history.

 

How quickly the fanciful stories of a people pass as truth! This one took just a couple decades. Give it a few more, and it will be rock-solid history.

 

Phanta

[StevoMuso]

 

How quickly the fanciful stories of a people pass as truth! This one took just a couple decades. Give it a few more, and it will be rock-solid history.

 

Phanta

Pretty much how the OT was put together would be my guess (un-sourced).

[par4dcourse]

I always assumed it came from the old loaves and fishes yarn. Never investigated beyond that. I know I detest the sight of it.

 

 

[Neon Genesis]

 

I already feel ashamed. But if it means getting to the bottom of this "xian handshake" mystery then it might just be worth it (maybe ).

 

mwc

I recall Bart D Ehrman debunked the secret handshake and discussed the Jesus fish in one his books, but I can't remember which one it is. If I find it again, I'll post what it said if it'll help any.

[Dagan]

I've heard the fish/vulva/yoni connection before, and although there's not a lot of actual evidence for any of the theories, I like that one because of its connections to paganism, a secret and repressed feminine side to spirituality in a male-dominated religion and also shows that Jesus was a big pussy.

[StevoMuso]

... also shows that Jesus was a big pussy.

Brilliant. I will NEVER look at that fish in the same way again ...

[mwc]

Thanks everyone.

 

I was aware of many of these but it's nice to see them here as confirmation. I hadn't seen the Pythagorean stuff (or if I did it's not ringing a bell).

 

I'm still interested in the origin of the "secret handshake" idea where the xians supposedly drew the fish on the ground. I was fed this as fact for years and only now decided to check into it. It seems that it's more fantasy than anything. The same for the acrostic. It seems that is probably something that came along later to explain the fish.

 

I appreciate the help.

 

mwc

[Dagan]

Another note, the number 153 is important to the Vesica Piscis, and that number appears in John 21:11, as the number of fish they caught.

 

THAT caught my attention.

 

That verse has always bothered me.

 

Named disciple: "Holy fuck, it's Jesus, he's ALIVE! Let's go see him!"

 

Unnamed moron fish-counting disciple: "Derrrr, hang on, I gotta count these fish first..."

 

Also, compare this with Jesus' comment in Matthew that he was only going to give the sign of Jonah... and vesica piscis literally means "bladder of a fish."

 

Hmmm....

[mwc]

Alright, from what I can tell the acrostic seems to originate with Augustine of Hippo so it is late as I thought. He places it earlier though (King Hoshea - ~730 BCE; Erythræa is roughly the Red Sea area):

 

The City of God (Book 18)

 

Chapter 22.

[...] And in that part of the Hebrew nation called Israel, Hoshea had begun to reign.

 

Chapter 23.— Of the Erythræan Sibyl, Who is Known to Have Sung Many Things About Christ More Plainly Than the Other Sibyls.

 

Some say the Erythræan sibyl prophesied at this time. Now Varro declares there were many sibyls, and not merely one. This sibyl of Erythræ; certainly wrote some things concerning Christ which are quite manifest, and we first read them in the Latin tongue in verses of bad Latin, and unrhythmical, through the unskillfulness, as we afterwards learned, of some interpreter unknown to me. For Flaccianus, a very famous man, who was also a proconsul, a man of most ready eloquence and much learning, when we were speaking about Christ, produced a Greek manuscript, saying that it was the prophecies of the Erythræan sibyl, in which he pointed out a certain passage which had the initial letters of the lines so arranged that these words could be read in them: ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστος Θεοῦ υιὸς σωτηρ, which means, "Jesus Christ the Son of God, the Saviour." And these verses, of which the initial letters yield that meaning, contain what follows as translated by some one into Latin in good rhythm:

 

Ι Judgment shall moisten the earth with the sweat of its standard,

Η Ever enduring, behold the King shall come through the ages,

Σ Sent to be here in the flesh, and Judge at the last of the world.

Ο O God, the believing and faithless alike shall behold You

Υ Uplifted with saints, when at last the ages are ended.

Σ Seated before Him are souls in the flesh for His judgment.

 

Χ Hid in thick vapors, the while desolate lies the earth.

Ρ Rejected by men are the idols and long hidden treasures;

Ε Earth is consumed by the fire, and it searches the ocean and heaven;

Ι Issuing forth, it destroys the terrible portals of hell.

Σ Saints in their body and soul freedom and light shall inherit;

Τ Those who are guilty shall burn in fire and brimstone for ever.

Ο Occult actions revealing, each one shall publish his secrets;

Σ Secrets of every man's heart God shall reveal in the light.

 

Θ Then shall be weeping and wailing, yea, and gnashing of teeth;

Ε Eclipsed is the sun, and silenced the stars in their chorus.

Ο Over and gone is the splendor of moonlight, melted the heaven,

Υ Uplifted by Him are the valleys, and cast down the mountains.

 

Υ Utterly gone among men are distinctions of lofty and lowly.

Ι Into the plains rush the hills, the skies and oceans are mingled.

Ο Oh, what an end of all things! earth broken in pieces shall perish;

Σ . . . . Swelling together at once shall the waters and flames flow in rivers.

 

Σ Sounding the archangel's trumpet shall peal down from heaven,

Ω Over the wicked who groan in their guilt and their manifold sorrows.

Τ Trembling, the earth shall be opened, revealing chaos and hell.

Η Every king before God shall stand in that day to be judged.

Ρ Rivers of fire and brimstone shall fall from the heavens.

 

In these Latin verses the meaning of the Greek is correctly given, although not in the exact order of the lines as connected with the initial letters; for in three of them, the fifth, eighteenth, and nineteenth, where the Greek letter Υ occurs, Latin words could not be found beginning with the corresponding letter, and yielding a suitable meaning. So that, if we note down together the initial letters of all the lines in our Latin translation except those three in which we retain the letter Υ in the proper place, they will express in five Greek words this meaning, "Jesus Christ the Son of God, the Saviour." And the verses are twenty-seven, which is the cube of three. For three times three are nine; and nine itself, if tripled, so as to rise from the superficial square to the cube, comes to twenty-seven. But if you join the initial letters of these five Greek words, ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστος Θεοῦ υἰὸς σωτήρ, which mean, "Jesus Christ the Son of God, the Saviour," they will make the word ἰχδὺς, that is, "fish," in which word Christ is mystically understood, because He was able to live, that is, to exist, without sin in the abyss of this mortality as in the depth of waters.

 

But this sibyl, whether she is the Erythræan, or, as some rather believe, the Cumæan, in her whole poem, of which this is a very small portion, not only has nothing that can relate to the worship of the false or feigned gods, but rather speaks against them and their worshippers in such a way that we might even think she ought to be reckoned among those who belong to the city of God. Lactantius also inserted in his work the prophecies about Christ of a certain sibyl, he does not say which. But I have thought fit to combine in a single extract, which may seem long, what he has set down in many short quotations. She says, "Afterward He shall come into the injurious hands of the unbelieving, and they will give God buffets with profane hands, and with impure mouth will spit out envenomed spittle; but He will with simplicity yield His holy back to stripes. And He will hold His peace when struck with the fist, that no one may find out what word, or whence, He comes to speak to hell; and He shall be crowned with a crown of thorns. And they gave Him gall for meat, and vinegar for His thirst: they will spread this table of inhospitality. For you yourself, being foolish, have not understood your God, deluding the minds of mortals, but have both crowned Him with thorns and mingled for Him bitter gall. But the veil of the temple shall be rent; and at midday it shall be darker than night for three hours. And He shall die the death, taking sleep for three days; and then returning from hell, He first shall come to the light, the beginning of the resurrection being shown to the recalled." Lactantius made use of these sibylline testimonies, introducing them bit by bit in the course of his discussion as the things he intended to prove seemed to require, and we have set them down in one connected series, uninterrupted by comment, only taking care to mark them by capitals, if only the transcribers do not neglect to preserve them hereafter. Some writers, indeed, say that the Erythræan sibyl was not in the time of Romulus, but of the Trojan war.

So Augustine is saying in the 5th century CE that ~730 BCE a sybil around the Red Sea area created this oracle and hid within it this acrostic that declared "Jesus Christ, Son of God" in Greek.

 

This is taken by xians as a possible source for the "jesus" fish in the early church. They must have had knowledge of this oracle/acrostic and made use of it. This strikes me as...unlikely at best. I'm thinking this is just another forged oracle and some made up nonsense to explain their fish fetish but obviously I can't demonstrate it.

 

mwc

[mwc]

I just found this page. It has the following little tidbits:

 

The most common story about the origin of the ichthus symbol is that Christians drew half of it in the dirt and another believer came along and drew the other half, effectively communicating their beliefs in secret to avoid arrest. This usage is very possible, but it is unlikely that the ichthus truly originated for this purpose due to two reasons. First, there are no ancient writings or other archaeological evidence to suggest this purpose. Second, most of the ancient drawings of fish found relating to Christianity have scales and are more elaborate than the one found on the back of SUVs today. It seems that the ichthus with two lines that we know today came along later. Others have suggested that the ichthus (fish drawing, not the symbol) might have been drawn in dirt or scratched on walls to indicate the direction of an underground church meeting. It is believed that the Romans used a similar symbol to indicate a funeral and so Christians could have used that as an excuse if they were caught.

This all agrees with what I have been able to find as well. So what is the source of this "tradition?" Grrrr.

 

It goes on to say:

The modern day, simplistic version of the ichthus supposedly originated in Australia as a chalk drawing at Sydney University. The Evangelical Union at Sydney University tried to spur curiosity about the symbol which they drew all over campus and ultimately hoped that curiosity lead to evangelism.[...]Many think that the fish should always be oriented with its head to the left. This follows the same shape as the Greek letter alpha (α) and symbolizes Revelation 1:8 where the Lord refers to Himself as the Alpha and Omega.

Interesting. Not so helpful for my purposes but interesting nonetheless (except blowing my theory that the "original" was an alpha in itself...unless there was, by chance, a group that did write alphas that were confused for fish or something but I'm not worried about that now). The evangelicals strike again. What's old is new again is really what's pretend old is new again because lying for "jesus" is cool.

 

mwc

[StevoMuso]

The evangelicals strike again. What's old is new again is really what's pretend old is new again because lying for "jesus" is cool.

mwc

Bam! Brilliant!

 

Nice thread this mwc - absolutely fascinating and informative. Learned a lot - thanks :-)

[mwc]

Over at icr.org I found this:

During this time of intolerance, the Ichthus represented a secret sign for believers, for example, as shown in a scene from the 1951 film Quo Vadis.

Could this be it? I've never seen this film but I'm seriously thinking that this may the source for this "tradition," since no one anywhere ever cites anyone/anthing for it, but I'll keep looking.

 

mwc