Need Help With The "jesus" Fish

[mwc]

Alright, I found the story the movie was based on. Quo Vadis: A Narrative of the Time of Nero by Henryk Sienkiewicz in 1895.

 

"But what did she write on the sand? Was it not the name of Amor, or a heart pierced with his dart, or something of such sort, that one might know from it that the satyrs had whispered to the ear of that nymph various secrets of life? How couldst thou help looking on those marks?"

 

"It is longer since I have put on the toga than seems to thee," said Vinicius, "and before little Aulus ran up, I looked carefully at those marks, for I know that frequently maidens in Greece and in Rome draw on the sand a confession which their lips will not utter. But guess what she drew!"

 

"If it is other than I supposed, I shall not guess."

 

"A fish."

 

"What dost thou say?"

 

"I say, a fish. What did that mean, -- that cold blood is flowing in her veins? So far I do not know; but thou, who hast called me a spring bud on the tree of life, wilt be able to understand the sign certainly."

 

"Carissime! ask such a thing of Pliny. He knows fish. If old Apicius were alive, he could tell thee something, for in the course of his life he ate more fish than could find place at one time in the bay of Naples."

He raised his head then, and said: "I know more than thou thinkest. I have not come empty-handed. I know that Aulus did not intercept the maiden, for I have spoken with his slaves. I know that she is not on the Palatine, for all are occupied with the infant Augusta; and perhaps I may even divine why ye prefer to search for the maiden with my help rather than that of the city guards and Caesar's soldiers. I know that her escape was effected by a servant, -- a slave coming from the same country as she. He could not find assistance among slaves, for slaves all stand together, and would not act against thy slaves. Only a co-religionist would help him."

 

"Dost hear, Vinicius?" broke in Petronius. "Have I not said the same, word for word, to thee?"

 

"That is an honor for me," said Chio. "The maiden, lord," continued he, turning again to Vinicius, "worships beyond a doubt the same divinity as that most virtuous of Roman ladies, that genuine matron, Pomponia. I have heard this, too, that Pomponia was tried in her own house for worshipping some kind of foreign god, but I could not learn from her slaves what god that is, or what his worshippers are called. If I could learn that, I should go to them, become the most devoted among them, and gain their confidence. But thou, lord, who hast passed, as I know too, a number of days in the house of the noble Aulus, canst thou not give me some information thereon?"

 

"I cannot," said Vinicius.

 

"Ye have asked me long about various things, noble lords, and I have answered the questions; permit me now to give one. Hast thou not seen, honored tribune, some statuette, some offering, some token, some amulet on Pomponia or thy divine Lygia? Hast thou not seen them making signs to each other, intelligible to them alone?"

 

"Signs? Wait! Yes; I saw once that Lygia made a fish on the sand."

 

"A fish? A-a! O-o-o! Did she do that once, or a number of times?"

 

"Only once."

 

"And art thou certain, lord, that she outlined a fish? O-o?"

 

"Yes," answered Vinicius, with roused curiosity. "Dost thou divine what that means?"

 

"Do I divine!" exclaimed Chio. And bowing in sign of farewell, he added:

 

"May Fortune scatter on you both equally all gifts, worthy lords!"

 

"Give command to bring thee a mantle," said Petronius to him at parting. "Ulysses gives thee thanks for Thersites," said the Greek; and bowing a second time, he walked out.

 

"What wilt thou say of that noble sage?" inquired Petronius.

 

"This, that he will find Lygia," answered Vinicius, with delight; "but I will say, too, that were there a kingdom of rogues he might be the king of it."

 

"Most certainly. I shall make a nearer acquaintance with this stoic; meanwhile I must give command to perfume the atrium."

 

But Chilo Chionides, wrapping his new mantle about him, threw up on his palm, under its folds, the purse received from Vinicius, and admired both its weight and its jingle. Walking on slowly, and looking around to see if they were not looking at him from the house, he passed the portico of Livia, and, reaching the corner of the Clivus Virbius, turned toward the Subura.

 

"I must go to Sporus," said he to himself, "and pour out a little wine to Fortuna. I have found at last what I have been seeking this long time. He is young, irascible, bounteous as mines in Cyprus, and ready to give half his fortune for that Lygian linnet. Just such a man have I been seeking this long time. It is needful, however, to be on one's guard with him, for the wrinkling of his brow forebodes no good. Ah! the woif-whelps lord it over the world to-day! I should fear that Petronius less. O gods! but the trade of procurer pays better at present than virtue. Ah! she drew a fish on the sand! If I know what that means, may I choke myself with a piece of goat's cheese! But I shall know. Fish live under water, and searching under water is more difficult than on land, ergo he will pay me separately for this fish. Another such purse and I might cast aside the beggar's wallet and buy myself a slave. But what wouldst thou say, Chilo, were I to advise thee to buy not a male but a female slave? I know thee; I know that thou wouldst consent. If she were beautiful, like Eunice, for instance, thou thyself wouldst grow young near her, and at the same time wouldst have from her a good and certain income. I sold to that poor Eunice two threads from my old mantle. She is dull; but if Petronius were to give her to me, I would take her. Yes, yes, Chilo Chilonides, thou hast lost father and mother, thou art an orphan; therefore buy to console thee even a female slave. She must indeed live somewhere, therefore Vinicius will hire her a dwelling, in which thou too mayest find shelter; she must dress, hence Vinicius will pay for the dress; and must eat, hence he will support her. Och! what a hard life! Where are the times in which for an obolus a man could buy as much pork and beans as he could hold in both hands, or a piece of goat's entrails as long as the arm of a boy twelve years old, and filled with blood? But here is that villain Sporus! In the wine-shop it will be easier to learn something."

 

Thus conversing, he entered the wine-shop and ordered a pitcher of "dark" for himself. Seeing the sceptical look of the shopkeeper, he took a gold coin from his purse, and, putting it on the table, said, -- "Sporus, I toiled to-day with Seneca from dawn till midday, and this is what my friend gave me at parting."

 

The plump eyes of Sporus became plumper still at this sight, and the wine was soon before Chilo. Moistening his fingers in it, he drew a fish on the table, and said, -- "Knowest what that means?" "A fish? Well, a fish, -- yes, that's a fish." "Thou art dull; though thou dost add so much water to the wine that thou mightst find a fish in it. This is a symbol which, in the language of philosophers, means 'the smile of fortune.' If thou hadst divined it, thou too mightst have made a fortune. Honor philosophy, I tell thee, or I shall change my wineshop, -- an act to which Petronius, my personal friend, has been urging me this long time."

"A greeting, O lawgiver of virtue and wisdom," answered Petronius. But Vinicius inquired with affected calmness, "What dost thou bring?" "The first time 1 came I brought thee hope, O lord; at present, I bring certainty that the maiden will be found."

 

"That means that thou hast not found her yet?"

 

"Yes, lord; but I have found what that sign means which she made. I know who the people are who rescued her, and I know the God among whose worshippers to seek her."

 

Vinicius wished to spring from the chair in which he was sitting; but Petronius placed his hand on his shoulder, and turning to Chio said, -- "Speak on!"

 

"Art thou perfectly certain, lord, that she drew a fish on the sand?" "Yes," burst out Vinicius.

 

"Then she is a Christian and Christians carried her away." A moment of silence followed.

 

"Listen, Chilo," said Petronius. "My relative has predestined to thee a considerable sum of money for finding the girl, but a no less considerable number of rods if thou deceive him. In the first case thou wilt purchase not one, but three scribes; in the second, the philosophy of all the seven sages, with the addition of thy own, will not suffice to get thee ointment."

 

"The maiden is a Christian, lord," cried the Greek.

 

"Stop, Chilo. Thou art not a dull man. We know that Junia and Calvia Crispinilla accused Pomponia Graecina of confessing the Christian superstition; but we know too, that a domestic court acquitted her. Wouldst thou raise this again? Wouldst thou persuade us that Pomponia, and with her Lygia, could belong to the enemies of the human race, to the poisoners of ~ ells and fountains, to the worshippers of an ass's head, to people who murder infants and give themselves up to the foulest license? Think, Chilo, if that thesis which thou art announcing to us will not rebound as an antithesis on thy own back."

 

Chilo spread out his arms in sign that that was not his fault, and then said,-- "Lord, utter in Greek the following sentence: Jesus Christ, Son of God,

 

Saviour." 1

 

"Well, I have uttered it. What comes of that?"

 

"Now take the first letters of each of those words and put them into one word."

 

"Fish!" said Petronius with astonishment.2

 

"There, that is why fish has become the watchword of the Christians," answered Chio, proudly.

 

A moment of silence followed. But there was something so striking in the conclusions of the Greek that the two friends could not guard them.. selves from amazement.

 

"Vinicius, art thou not mistaken?" asked Petronius. "Did Lygia really draw a fish for thee?"

 

"By all the infernal gods, one might go mad!" cried the young man, with excitement. "If she had drawn a bird for me, I should have said a bird."

 

"Therefore she is a Christian," repeated Chio.

 

"This signifies," said Petronius, "that Pomponia and Lygia poison wells, murder children caught on the street, and give themselves up to dissoluteness! Folly! Thou, Vinicius, wert at their house for a time, I was there a little while; but I know Pomponia and Aulus enough, I know even Lygia enough, to say monstrous and foolish! If a fish is the symbol of the Christians, which it is difficult really to deny, and if those women are Christians, then, by Proserpina! evidently Christians are not what we hold them to be."

 

"Thou speakest like Socrates, lord," answered Chilo. "Who has ever examined a Christian? Who has learned their religion? When I was travelling three years ago from Naples hither to Rome (oh, why did I not stay in Naples!), a man joined me, whose name was Glaucus, of whom people said that he was a Christian; but in spite of that I convinced myself that he was a good and virtuous man."

 

"Was it not from that virtuous man that thou hast learned now what the fish means?"

 

"Unfortunately, lord, on the way, at an inn, some one thrust a knife into that honorable old man; and his wife and child were carried away by slave-dealers. I lost in their defence these two fingers; since, as people say, there is no lack among Christians of miracles, I hope that the fingers will grow out on my hand again."

 

"How is that? Hast thou become a Christian?"

 

"Since yesterday, lord, since yesterday! The fish made me a Christian. But see what a power there is in it. For some days I shall be the most zealous of the zealous, SO that they may admit me to all their secrets; and when they admit me to their secrets, I shall know where the maiden is hiding. Perhaps then my Christianity will pay me better than my philosophy. I have made a vow also to Mercury, that if he helps me to find the maiden, I will sacrifice to him two heifers of the same size and color and will gild their horns."

 

"Then thy Christianity of yesterday and thy philosophy of long standing permit thee to believe in Mercury?"

 

"1 believe always in that in which I need to believe; that is my philosophy, which ought to please Mercury. Unfortunately (ye know, worthy lords, what a suspicious god he is), he does not trust the promises even of blameless philosophers, and prefers the heifers in advance; meanwhile this outlay is immense. Not every one is a Seneca, and I cannot afford the sacrifice; should the noble Vinicius, however, wish to give something, on account of that sum which he promised --"

 

"Not an obolus, Chilo!" said Petronius, "not an obolus. The bounty of Vinicius will surpass thy expectations, but only when Lygia is found, -- that is, when thou shalt indicate to us her hiding-place. Mercury must trust thee for the two heifers, though I am not astonished at him for not wishing to do so; in this I recognize his acuteness."

 

"Listen to me, worthy lords. The discovery which I have made is great; for though I have not found the maiden yet, I have found the way in which I must seek her. Ye have sent freedmen and slaves throughout the city and into the country; has any one given you a clew? No! I alone have given one. I tell you more. Among your slaves there may be Christians, of whom ye have no knowledge, for this superstition has spread everywhere; and they, instead of aiding, will betray you. It is unfortunate that they see me here; do thou therefore, noble Petronius, enjoin silence on Eunice; and thou too, noble Vinicius, spread a report that I sell thee an ointment which insures victory in the Circus to horses rubbed with it. I alone will search for her, and single-handed I will find the fugitives; and do ye trust in me, and know that whatever I receive in advance will be for me simply an encouragement, for I shall hope always for more, and shall feel the greater certainty that the promised reward will not fail me. Ah, it is true! As a philosopher I despise money, though neither Seneca, nor even Musonius, nor Cornutus despises it, though they have not lost fingers in any one's defence, and are able themselves to write and leave their names to posterity. But, aside from the slave, whom I intend to buy, and besides Mercury, to whom I have promised the heifers, -- and ye know how dear cattle have become in these times, -- the searching itself involves much outlay. Only listen to me patiently. Well, for the last few days my feet are wounded from continual walking. I have gone to wine-shops to talk with people, to bakeries, to butcher-shops, to dealers in olive oil, and to fishermen. I have run through every street and alley; I have been in the hiding-places of fugitive slaves; I have lost money, nearly a hundred ases, in playing mora; I have been in laundries, in drying-sheds, in cheap kitchens; I have seen mule-drivers and carvers; I have seen people who cure bladder complaints and pull teeth; I have talked with dealers in dried figs; I have been at cemeteries; and do ye know why? This is why; so as to outline a fish everywhere, look people in the eyes, and hear what they would say of that sign. For a long time I was unable to learn anything, till at last I saw an old slave at a fountain. He was drawing water with a bucket, and weeping. Approaching him, I asked the cause of his tears. When we had sat down on the steps of the fountain, he answered that all his life he had been collecting sestertium after sestertium, to redeem his beloved son; but his master, a certain Pansa, when the money was delivered to him, took it, but kept the son in slavery. 'And so I am weeping,' said the old man, 'for though I repeat, Let the will of God be done, I, poor sinner, am not able to keep down my tears.' Then, as if penetrated by a forewarning, I moistened my finger in the water and drew a fish for him. To this he answered, 'My hope, too, is in Christ.' I asked him then, 'Hast thou confessed to me by that sign?' 'I have,' said he; 'and peace be with thee.' I began then to draw him out, and the honest old man told me everything. His master, that Pansa, is himself a freedman of the great Pansa; and he brings stones by the Tiber to Rome, where slaves and hired persons unload them from the boats, and carry them to buildings in the night time, so as not to obstruct movement in the streets during daylight. Among these people many Christians work, and also his son; as the work is beyond his son's strength, he wished to redeem him. But Pansa preferred to keep both the money and the slave. While telling me this, he began again to weep; and I mingled my tears with his, -- tears came to me easily because of my kind heart, and the pain in my feet, which I got from walking excessively. I began also to lament that as I had come from Naples only a few days since, I knew no one of the brotherhood, and did not know where they assembled for prayer. He wondered that Christians in Naples had not given me letters to their brethren in Rome; but I explained to him that the letters were stolen from me on the road. Then he told me to come to the river at night, and he would acquaint me with brethren who would conduct me to houses of prayer and to elders who govern the Christian cornmunity. When I heard this, I was so delighted that I gave him the sum needed to redeem his son, in the hope that the lordly Vinicius would return it to me twofold."

 

"Chilo," interrupted Petronius, "in thy narrative falsehood appears on the surface of truth, as oil does on water. Thou hart brought important information; I do not deny that. I assert, even, that a great step is made toward finding Lygia; but do not cover thy news with falsehood. What is the name of that old man from whom thou hart learned that the Christians recognize each other through the sign of a fish?"

 

"Euricius. A poor, unfortunate old man! He reminded me of Glaucus, whom I defended from murderers, and he touched me mainly by this."

 

"I believe that thou didst discover him, and wilt be able to make use of the acquaintance; but thou hast given him no money. Thou hast not given him an as; dost understand me? Thou hast not given anything."

 

"But I helped him to lift the bucket, and I spoke of his son with the greatest sympathy. Yes, lord, what can hide before the penetration of Petronius? Well, I did not give him money, or rather, I gave it to him, but only in spirit, in intention, which, had he been a real philosopher, should have sufficed him. I gave it to him because I saw that such an act was indispensable and useful; for think, lord, how this act has won all the Christians at once to me, what access to them it has opened, and what confidence it has roused in them."

 

"True," said Petronius, "and it was thy duty to do it."

 

"For this very reason I have come to get the means to do it." Petronius turned to Vinicius, -- "Give command to count out to him five thousand sestertia, but in spirit, in intention."

 

"I will give thee a young man," said Vinicius, "who will take the sum necessary; thou wilt say to Euricius that the youth is thy slave, and thou wilt count out to the old man, in the youth's presence, this money. Since thou hast brought important tidings, thou wilt rece.ive the same amount for thyself. Come for the youth and the money this evening."

 

"Thou art a real Caesar!" said Chilo. "Permit i-ne, lord, to dedicate my work to thee; but permit also that this evening I come only for the money, since Euricius told me that all the boats had been unloaded, and that new ones would come from Ostia only after some days. Peace be with you! Thus do Christians take farewell of one another. I will buy myself a slave woman, -- that is, I wanted to say a slave man. Fish are caught with a bait, and Christians with fish. Fax vobiscum! pax! pax! pax!"

 

1 (Greek Phrase) Iesous Christos, Theou Uios, Soter. 2 (Greek) Ichthus, the Greek word for "fish."

"Dost thou know that thou art happier than I? Thou art in poverty, arid in this one chamber, among simple people, thou hast thy religion and thy Christ; but I have only thee, and when I lacked thee I was like a beggar without a roof above him and without bread. Thou art dearer to me than the whole world. I sought thee, for I could not live without thee. I wished neither feasts nor sleep. Had it not been for the hope of finding thee, I should have cast myself on a sword. But I fear death, for if dead I could not see thee. I speak the pure truth in saying that I shall not be able to live without thee. I have lived so far only in the hope of finding and beholding thee. Dost thou remember our conversations at the house of Aulus? Once thou didst draw a fish for me on the sand, and I knew not what its meaning was. Dost thou remember how we played ball? I loved thee then above life, and thou had5t begun already to divine that I loved thee. Aulus came, frightened us with Libitina, and interrupted our talk. Pomponia, at parting, told Petronius that God is one, all-mighty and all-merciful, but it did not even occur to us that Christ was thy God and hers. Let Him give thee to me and I will love Him, though He seems to me a god of slaves, foreigners, and beggars. Thou sittest near me, and thinkest of Him only. Think of me too, or I shall hate Him. For me thou alone art a divinity. Blessed be thy father and mother; blessed the land which produced thee! I should wish to embrace thy feet and pray to thee, give thee honor, homage, offerings, thou thrice divine! Thou knowest not, or canst not know, how I love thee."

Vinicius dismissed them with a wave of his hand. Though they desired to thank him and to fall at his feet, they went away hurriedly, filling the house with happiness from cellar to roof.

 

"To-morrow," said Vinicius, "I will command them to meet again in the garden, and to make such signs on the ground as they choose. Lygia will free those who draw a fish."

 

Petronius, who never wondered long at anything, had grqwn indifferent, and asked, -- "A fish, is it? Ah, ha! According to Chio, that is the sign of a Christian, I remember." Then he extended his hand to Vinicius, and said: "Happiness is always where a man sees it. May Flora strew flowers under thy feet for long years. I wish thee everything which thou wishest thyself."

 

"I thank thee, for I thought that thou wouldst dissuade me, and that, as thou seest, would be time lost."

That's more than enough.

 

I'll keep looking but this does seem to be the source for this "tradition." It has all the elements. A case of fiction becoming fact.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

Nice.

 

And you're right, lying for Jesus is okay. So is killing for Jesus, or any other sin. Since God can't do wrong, when God commands someone to break the law and sin, it's not sin anymore. It's only sin when the non-Christians do it. That's why that religion is morally corrupt.

[Dagan]

Good work, mwc. I think you've discovered the true source of the fish symbol. The way it's built into the story, it's an obvious plot point on which much of the action turns. And to me, it reads like the author invented it for his story, not like he was referring to anything which was known to exist. It reads like a clever symbolic device, like something out of a Dan Brown novel.

 

Like you say, another case of fiction becoming fact.

[StevoMuso]

Like you say, another case of fiction becoming fact.

Like pretty much everything in Christianity.

[mwc]

I wasn't happy with my answer so I've kept looking.

 

I've sound the following from "Blackwood's magazine, Volume 62 (1847)":

The meaning of the sign of a fish will not readily occur: but the frequency of its appearance establishes its character as a secret mark of recognition. It was used to signify both • Christ and his church.

This is the earliest reference I can locate that makes reference to this as some sort of secret mark related to persecution. Before this it becomes very unclear and most all references simply note that xians were persecuted and also had symbols but don't tie them together this way (if there is something that does this I missed or overlooked it). Most simply make reference to the acrostic and the cloudy origins of the symbol touching on the later mentions of it by the church fathers and such.

 

However "Lectures delivered before the Young Men's Christian Association Vol.5" (1850):

Then, upon several tombs occurs a fish. What does this mean ? You do not see that it symbolises anything; but searching to find its signification you soon perceive its correspondence with another mystic sign. On some tombs stands the Greek word l%ivt, " a fish." Here, then, this word on some tombs, and this form on others, agree; but what do they mean ? The word l%tvs consists of letters which form the initials of the Greek words signifying "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour." The Christians were persecuted. They needed some token of their Christianity which would be known to themselves but unintelligible to their enemies. This one word offered an abbreviation of the name and the descriptive titles of their Lord. They adopted it. But it was not in any proper sense a symbol, only a covert abbreviation. To us it simply declares that their faith was proscribed, and the name of their Lord cast out as evil.

This makes the connection quite readily. Without any citations.

 

From "The churchyard manual: intended chiefly for rural districts" By William Hastings Kelke (1851):

The early Christians appear generally to have used symbols and emblems on their sepulchral monuments. This practice, commencing in an age of persecution, probably originated in the desire to commemorate the faith of the deceased, yet fearing to do this openly, lest his tomb should be violated by the persecuting heathen. By adopting conventional symbols the desired information could be conveyed to their fellow Christians, while the uninitiated Pagan would regard them as merely ornamental devices, or at least remain ignorant of their real meaning. The symbol most extensively used by them was the figure of a fish, or the Greek word i%6uf. This would be perfectly unintelligible to the Pagan, while the Christian would discern in it the initial letters of the words \-naws X^utos- ®eov tiior, Swrwp—" Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Saviour."

 

Then from "Ancient Christianity exemplified in the life of the primitive Christians" By Lyman Coleman (1852):

The primitive Christians regarded with irreconcilable aversion all pictures or images, none of which were allowed in their churches. The Roman emperors required divine honours to be paid to their statues, and the refusal to do this on the part of Christians was frequently the occasion of their vindictive persecution, as is seen in Pliny's letter to Trajan, cited above, pp. 34—6. This circumstance, together with their abhorrence of paganism, effectually excluded images from the churches of the early Christians.

 

The origin of the custom of introducing images into churches is described by Neander as follows:—" It was not in the church, but in the family, that religious images first came into use among the Christians. In their daily intercourse with men, the Christians saw themselves everywhere surrounded by the objects of pagan mythology, or, at least, by objects offensive to their moral and Christian sentiments. Representations of this sort covered the walls in shops, were the ornaments of drinking-vessels and seal-rings, on which the pagans frequently had engraven the images of their gods, so that they might worship them when they pleased. It was natural that, in place of these objects, so offensive to their religious and moral sentiments, the Christians should substitute others more agreeable to them. Thus they preferred to have on their goblets the figure of a shepherd carrying a lamb on his shoulder, which was the symbol of our Saviour rescuing the repentant sinner, according to the gospel parable.1 And Clement of Alexandria says, in reference to the seal-rings of the Christians,2 ' Let our signets be a dove, (the symbol of the Holy Spirit,) or a fish,* or a ship sailing toward heaven, (the symbol of the Christian church, and of the individual Christian soul,) or a lyre, (the symbol of Christian joy,) or an anchor, (the symbol of Christian hope;) and he who is a fisherman will not be forgetful of the apostle Peter, and of the children taken from the water ;* for no images of gods should be engraved on the rings of those who are forbidden all intercourse with idols; no sword or bow on the rings of those who strive after peace; no goblets on the rings of those who are the friends of sobriety.' Yet religious emblems passed from domestic use into the churches, perhaps as early as the end of the third century. The walls of them were painted in this manner. The Council of Elvira, in the year 803, opposed this innovation as an abuse, and forbade ' the objects of worship and adoration to be painted on the walls.' "

So he's tying the persecution of xians with the absence of xian symbols from churches. But possibly starting at the end of the 3rd century this all started to change. His evidence? Nothing.

 

Maybe the first appearance of this story is in "The Youth's instructer [sic] and guardian" (1854):

The spectator in the Catacombs and the Lapidarian Gallery is struck with the frequent occurrence of the fish as an emblem; and when the emblem is not used, often the Greek word for it is inscribed. " The idea," says Bishop Kip, "was originally derived from the Greek word for fish, <X<?yc, which contains the initials of Irjaovq Xpioroe Oiov Tioc Swrijp, Jesus Christ, The Son Op God, The Saviour. Among the religious emblems which St. Clement (a. D. 194) recommends to the Christians of Alexandria, to have engraven on their rings, he mentions the fish." It was generally used among the Christians during the persecutions, because while it expressed the fundamental idea of their faith, it was almost beyond any possible detection by their enemies. A lamp was found in the Catacombs which represents both the emblem of the fish and the monogram of Christ's name.

I'm not sure what kind of publication this was. Maybe a young men's (a youth group) type of book? The lamp mentioned is a real item. The acrostic I've already mentioned. The reference to Clement is true (though not complete).

Now in "The Literary churchman: a critical record of religious publications" (1856):

He has given some curious illustrations (which seem to support this view) from paintings in the Catacombs. One small but curious one represents a man catching a fish with a line, and may possibly have been intended to refer to the apostles being " fishers of men." Apart from the verbal signification of the symbol, the constant mention of the fish in the New Testament—e. g. the miracles already mentioned, the miraculous draught, &c.—would seem to give it a sacred character, and so suitable to their ecclesiastical decorations ; but this must not be confounded with the earlier use, viz., that of the mysterious badge by which the persecuted Christians were recognised amongst themselves.

The connection is once again made and it's also made again with citation. The church publications are pushing this idea for no reason at all. If they were all American publications I would wonder if it's the

 

This is the first real scholarly work "The Roman catacombs: or, Some account of the burial-places of the early Christians in Rome" By James Spencer Northcote (1859):

We know from different passages in the New Testament, that the Christians from the very earliest times, were in the habit of meeting together in some stated place, for the public worship of God. Lucian, who lived in the time of Trajan, and was therefore contemporary with some of the Apostles, describes them as assembling in " an upper chamber, richly ornamented with gold," which must of course have been in the house of some wealthy Christian, for the Church could not at that time have built any public edifices of this kind. In the time of the emperor Alexander Severus, however, we read that they took possession of a certain open, unoccupied plot of ground, which had been hitherto used by the popinarii, or cooks, and where the soldiers were in the habit of meeting, to eat, drink, and riot, and that they built a church there ; that the popinarii made a formal complaint to the emperor, who rejected it, and confirmed the Christians in their possession, saying that he would rather God should be worshipped there under any form than the place should be occupied by such worthless characters.* After the time of Severus, churches must have multiplied ; for, in the nineteenth year of Diocletian, one of the imperial edicts of persecution was " to destroy the churches,'' which, indeed, according to some writers, amounted at that time to as many as forty. Still, however, persecution being always threatened, it was necessary for the Christians to have some more secret and secure places of meeting, to which they could have recourse when need required; and such they found in the Catacombs.

He goes on to mention that the catacombs weren't unknown to the pagans as a xian meeting spot. I'll get back to this guy.

 

 

In "Mazzaroth: or, The constellations" By Frances Rolleston" (1862):

In the days of persecution the early Christians frequently made themselves known to each other by the fish engraven on their rings, signifying that they were baptized believers. It was also sometimes sculptured on their tombs, as is to be seen in the catacombs.

The sign is on the xian rings. This is almost what Clement said but it's confused with the other ideas. This book seems "strange" but I have no idea what people were actually reading back then. I'm just looking to see how this idea seemed to get out and about.

 

"Roma sotterranea or an account of the Roman catacombs, Part 2" By James Spencer Northcote (1879):

Sarcophagi, for instance, were attributed to the second and third centuries by Settele and others, which we now know with certainty to have been long posterior to Constantine, whilst, contrariwise, Father Marchi, though his general tendency was to err in the opposite direction, yet believed that certain ornamentations in stucco, which are to be seen in some of the subterranean chapels, were executed when the age of persecution was ended, whereas they belong rather to an age when interference with the burial-places of the Christian dead had not yet been apprehended.

This is the same guy from 1859 who spoke on the catacombs earlier only now he has a partner and they've decided to go with the idea that the xians went underground, using secret symbols to communicate during times of persecution, and then when that stopped they surfaced again. So the fish symbol disappears once xianity becomes legit and is replaced by the cross. They explain away the cross symbol (mainly the crucifix) lacking prior to this as a result of it being distasteful to the pagan world that persecuted them. So they took the "real" symbol and discarded the pagan loan symbols. The evidence is simply the higher volume of images of a certain type during a given period, it's disappearance, and the rise of a replacement symbol.

 

It seems that a number of historians and scholars latch onto the idea during this time period (the mid-late 1800's...maybe the last quarter is more accurate?). I noticed that there are about four main guys that are involved (this Northcote, de Rossi, Withrow and Tuker?). It seems to go into the "mainstream" around that point.

 

I'm wondering if some of these changes of mind didn't happen as a result of the Catholic Persecutions in England and the Civil War in the US? Secret groups with secret "handshakes" not being able to know who to trust at any given time giving rise to the idea of persecution and going underground?

 

Anyhow, I'm still looking to see if I can find anything solid before the 1800's.

 

mwc

[J. Quinton]

It's probably just irony that the first person given the name "Jesus" is the son of a man named "Fish".

[SilentLoner]

I always assumed it came from the old loaves and fishes yarn. Never investigated beyond that. I know I detest the sight of it.

 

That's what I thought too.

 

But at least it gave us the Darwin fish to put on our cars and piss off passing xtian motorists.

[mwc]

The Encyclopaedia Britannica

By Thomas Spencer Baynes

1833

 

But although, as we have said, in ordinary times there was no necessity for secrecy, yet when the peace of the church was broken by the fierce and often protracted persecutions of the heathen emperors, it became essential to adopt precautions to conceal the entrance to the cemeteries, which became the temporary hiding-places of the Christian fugitives, and to baffle the search of their pursuers. To these stormy periods we may safely assign the alterations which may be traced in the staircases, which are sometimes abruptly cut off, leaving a gap requiring a ladder, and the formation of secret passages communicating with the arenariae, and through them with the open country.

 

When the storms of persecution ceased and Christianity had become the imperial faith, the evil fruits of prosperity were not slow to appear. Cemetery interment became a regular trade in the hands of the fossorea, or grave-diggers, who appear to have established a kind of property in the Catacombs, and whose greed of gain led to that destruction of the religious paintings with which the walls were decorated, for the quarrying of fresh loculi, to which we have already alluded. Monumental epitaphs record the purchase of a grave from the fossorea, in many cases during the life time of the individual, not unfrequently stating the price. A very curious fresco, found in the cemetery of Calllstua, preserved by the engravings of the earlier investigators (Bottari, torn. ii. p. 126, tav. 99), represents a "fossor" with his lamp in his hand and his pick over his shoulder, and his tools lying about him. Above is the inscription, "Diogenes Fossor in Pace depositus."

 

Our space forbids us to enter on any detailed description of the frescos which cover the walls and ceilings of the burial-chapels in the richest abundance.

It must suffice to say that the earliest examples are only to be distinguished from the mural decorations employed by their pagan contemporaries (as seen at Pompeii and elsewhere) by the absence of all that was immoral or idolatrous, and that it was only very slowly and timidly that any distinctly religious representations were introduced. These were at first purely symbolical, meaningless to any but a Christian eye, such as the Vine, the Good Shepherd,

the Sheep, the Fisherman, the Fish, &c. Even the personages of ancient mythology were pressed into the service of early Christian art, and Orpheus,

taming the wild beasts with his lyre, symbolised the peaceful way of Christ; and Ulysses, deaf to the Siren's song, represented the Reliever triumphing

over the allurements of sensual pleasure. The person of Christ appeared but rarely, and then commonly simply as the chief personage in an historical

picture. The events depicted from our Lord's life are but few, and always conform rigidly to the same traditional type.

There's a lot here but the gist of it is that the fish as some sort of secret xian symbol really hasn't entered the mainstream yet (or anywhere for that matter). This is just sort of a "baseline" as to what the general thinking was. The thinking that the xians were persecuted existed. That they hid in the catacombs was in place. That they had "art" was there too but it was understood that their art was really not so different that the pagan art. Certainly not some secret password system.

 

The primitive doctrine of justification investigated

By George Stanley Faber

1839

 

(3.) As for the fully instructed and fully initiated, so far was there from being any reserve in bringing forward to them the Atonement explicitly and

prominently on all occasions : that that doctrine, under the aspect of Salvation, united with the name of Jesus Christ the Son of God, was actually

the tessera or watch-word, by which, as the special badge of their profession, Christians, in seasons of danger, made themselves known to each other.

 

The sign was IX0YE : the counter-sign was IX0YEION.

 

Now, when a Christian contrived to say, to another person who might probably be a Christian but of whose Christianity he was not certain, the single word Fish in the greek language; no suspicion could, by any possibility, arise, either among the by-standers, or in the mind of the person addressed if he happened to be not a Christian ; and as little suspicion could spring up among the by-standers, if the apparently careless reply were, in the same language, A Little Fish.

 

Yet, by this interchange of seemingly indifferent words, Christians, at once, made themselves mutually known, and professed the great doctrine of the atonement through Christ the Saviour. For the simply sounding word IX0YE instantaneously communicated, to the Christian Mysta, the vital dogma of JESUS

CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, THE SAVIOUR : and that in. less simply sounding answer IX0YEION conveyed, in return, a devout acknowledgment of that dogma with a profession of humble and diminutive discipleship.

Faber appears during the Oxford Movement (the Tractarians). Most importantly, for us, is the idea of the sign/counter-sign that he presents here.

 

The popular encyclopedia

1841

 

ICHTHYS (IX0YE, Greek for fish); word found on many seals, rings, lamps, urns, and tombstones, belonging to the earliest Christian times. Each character

forms an initial letter of the following words: [...] that is, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Saviour. The picture of a fish is also sometimes engraved

in similar works, having a mystical meaning. [...] but it is much more probable that the ancient Christians gave to the image of the fish, (so much

revered as a religions symbol among most ancient nations) a mystical meaning.

 

 

The Bible cyclopædia

edited by William Goodhugh, William Cooke Taylor

1843

 

The Greek word IX0YES, ichthys, [...], was a symbolical term, in conventional use chiefly during the periods of persecution. Hence, and with allusion to the water of baptism, the early Christians sometimes called themselves Pisciculi, Ot fishes.

 

 

Blackwood's magazine, Volume 62

1847

 

The dove occurs more frequently than any other bird. Two doves bearing olive branches, are seen on Christian grave-stones in the Cologne museum, and on the

porta nigra at Treves. The meaning of the sign of a fish will not readily occur: but the frequency of its appearance establishes its character as a

secret mark of recognition. It was used to signify both Christ and his church.

[The popular encyclopedia]References the acrostic and notes that it was likely anachronistally applied to the word ICHTHYS ("fish"). The idea of the acrostic as a sign/counter-sign is not in the mainstream as of yet.

 

[The Bible cyclopædia]The concept of the early xians using the acrostic early is more firmly established. Along with the idea that they referred to themselves as "fish" at this time.

 

[blackwood's magazine]The reference is made about a later grave-stone but the article does not clarify this for the reader. The connection is further solidified that the "fish" is used as a symbol of recognition.

 

Lectures delivered before the Young Men's Christian Association ..., Volume 5 By Young Men's Christian Associations (London, England)

1850

 

Then, upon several tombs occurs a fish. What does this mean ? You do not see that it symbolises anything; but searching to find its signification you soon

perceive its correspondence with another mystic sign. [...] The Christians were persecuted. They needed some token of their Christianity which would be

known to themselves but unintelligible to their enemies. This one word offered an abbreviation of the name and the descriptive titles of their Lord. They

adopted it. But it was not in any proper sense a symbol, only a covert abbreviation. To us it simply declares that their faith was proscribed, and

the name of their Lord cast out as evil.

Again the acrostic (I omitted that section as I have in others) is mentioned as well as the fish symbol itself being the secret mark of identification.

 

Freemason's monthly magazine, Volume 14

1855

 

The Latin Tessera, is derived from the Greek word TEOOAQES, four, and was originally designative of a square piece of stone or wood used in making tesselated pavements ; afterwards it was applied as a tablet on which any thing was written and finally in the plural as a cube or die, marked on six sides for playing at dice. Its most general use was as a watchword, or pass word, of the Roman army; for according to Livy it was a piece of square metal or wood, with the signal inscribed on its face, and, from its four corners, was called Tessera. When the camp-watches were set, this watchword was handed down by the General, through the Tribune, Prefect and Centurion to the soldier on guard. In the time of Brutus the watchword of his army was " Libertas," inscribed on the Tessera.

 

There was also a Tessera frumentaria. or ticket for grain in use among the Roman merchants; which was probably a token of so much due. Then there was the Tessera hospitalis, which was a piece of wood cut into two parts as a tie and token of friendship'; each party kept one, and they swore mutual fidelity by Jupiter. To break their tessera was considered as a dissolution of friendship. In the plays of Plautus reference is made to this fact, and I allude to it as an interesting feature in ancient customs.

 

...

 

Among the early Christians the tessera was very generally used ; as with the Romans it was the military watchword, so in the DISCIPLINE OF THE SECRET, it became a kind of tutelary god of fidelity, the watchword of friendship. It was the visible MARK—there are those who know what [ mean—of the inward and secret confidence between two Brothers, who had witnessed sublime mysteries. Tertullian, somewhere in his writings describes the Tessera, as of gold or silver material: sometimes it was made of bone or ivory. It was called a jewel. The one used by the Christian Brethren, according to Tertullian was usually a bone, shaped like a fish; for the early Disciples were called Pisciculi, fishermen, but literally little fish. On its face was lettered the word IX0YE, which being interpreted by the Greek initials means Jesus Christ, Of God, The Son, The Saviour. It is thought that the passage in Malachi, chap. iii. 17, alludes to the custom of a tessera which had long prevailed among the Jews, " They shall be mine, saith the Lord of Hosts in that day when I make up my Jewels." The change of form from a square to a fish, is another instance how the same word becomes tropical and almost loses its derivation and original meaning as the fashions and customs of society alter. The etymology of some words however, is an intellectual treat; such as scrupulous, scrupulus, scrupulosus, a scrupus, a chessman; and when we think of such a derivation, the idea of this mental act of caution, is at once associated with that of a chess-player meditating upon a move.

It's at this point that the Freemason's Monthly really formalizes the idea that Faber introduced. The symbol as a "tessera" or secret sign-countersign (in and of itself).

 

The Atlantic monthly, Volume 2

1858

 

It has, for instance, been recently satisfactorily proved by the Cavaliere de Rossi that the use of the emblem of the fish in the catacombs extended only to the fourth century, so that the monuments upon which it is found may, with scarcely an exception, be referred to the preceding period. As this emblem went out of use, owing perhaps to the fact that the Christians were no longer forced to seek concealment for their name and profession, the famous monogram of Christ, (chi-rho) the hieroglyphic, not only of his name, but of his cross, succeeded' to it, and came, indeed, into far more general use than that which the fish had ever attained. The monogram is hardly to be found before the time of Constantine, and, as it is very frequently met with in the inscriptions from the catacombs, it affords an easy means, in the absence of a more specific date, for determining a period earlier than which any special inscription bearing it cannot have originated.

The fish falls out of favor and the cross replaces it. The fish was never a simple two-arc line drawing as it is now. Still the idea that fish is a "tessera" isn't stated outright.

 

The American quarterly review of freemasonry and its kindred sciences, Volume 2

By Albert Gallatin Mackey

1859

 

Minucius Felix, an eminent lawyer of Home, who lived in 212, and wrote a defence of Christianity, says: " Many of them [the Christians] know each other by tokens and signs (notis et insignibus), and they form a friendship for each other, almost before they become acquainted."

 

The Latin word, tessera, originally meant a square piece of wood or stone, used in making tesselated pavements, afterwards a tablet on which anything was written, and then a cube or die. Its most general use was to designate a piece of metal or wood, square in shape, on which the watch-word of an army was inscribed; whence tessera came to mean the watch-word itself. There was also a tessera hospitalis, which was a piece of wood cut into two parts, as a pledge of friendship. Each party kept one of the parts; and they swore mutual fidelity by Jupiter. To break the tessera was considered a dissolution of the friendship. The early Christians used it as a mark, the watch-word of friendship. With them it was generally in the shape of a fish, and made of bone. On its face was inscribed the word IX0YE, a fish, the initials of which represented the Greek words, If*o0u£ Xpufros Qsov T/6& -Tow^p; Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Saviour.

 

St. Augustine, (de Fideet Symbolis) says: "This is the faith which in a few words is given to the Novices to be kept by a symbol; these few words are known to all the Faithful: that by believing they may be submissive to God; by being thus submissive, they may live rightly; by living rightly, they may purify their hearts; and with a pure heart may understand what they believe."

 

Maximus Taurinus says: "The tessera is a symbol and sign, by which to distinguish the Faithful and the Profane."

Another article by the Freemasons show they seem to have adopted this view of the fish being a "tessera" and have no problem asserting it as fact.

 

The Freemasons' quarterly (magazine and) review [afterw.] The Freemasons ...

By Freemasons' magazine

1870

 

FISH.

 

We find in the St. Louis Freemason for June an article of the deepest research and highest interest on the subject of Chapter "Work, by Comp. Little, Grand High Priest of Virginia. In treating of the subject of masks, he discourses at length on the use employed by the early Christians of the fish as a symbol, both secret and universal. He says:— " One of their most common symbols was the word Ichtheos, a fish. It was used thus:—An unknown stranger applies to one believed to be a Christian, and states that he is one of themselves, fleeing from persecution. He is examined, and found to be well versed in his belief, and speaks as though knowing well the chief Christians in the place from which he came. Still, he may be an impostor or a spy. He is asked if he has any further proof, and he produces the figure of a fish, carved in wood, metal, or bone, or makes a drawing of a fish, and presents it. He is asked its meaning, and replies (no matter what his native language) by giving the Greek word Iclheos. Tet this is not enough ; he may know that such a symbol is used among the Christians—that their sacred books are written in the Greek language, and therefore that the symbol must be known by the Greek name. What does it signify? This: That the first three letters (J and Cli) stand for Jesus Christ, and that the latter part is the Greek word Theos, God. The word therefore signifies Jesus Christ, God. Thus it was at once a sign and a confirmation of faith, and the new comer would be at once received into the community of the faithful. It was a universal password and sign all over the Christian world, and its use and meaning were so well kept as never to be discovered by their enemies. This symbol is still used on church steeples, &c, as a sign of the Christian creeds."

 

All of which, except the etymology, is true. The Baying of Christ, " I will make you fishers of men," doubtless gave rise to the use of the symbol, as well as the fact that, on several occasions, he employed fish as humble tools in his miracles. The sermon of St. Anthony to the fishes, which is admirably translated by Addison, in his "Travels in Italy in 1704,''and other legends, have all, doubtless, a similar origin. But the distinguished writer is at fault in his Greek. The word for in that language is Ichthus, not Ichtheos. The acrostic, then, should be read thus : I (iota), Ch (chi), Th (theta), TJ (upsilon), S (sigma), Jesus Christos, Theos, ' Uios, Soter—" Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Saviour." This is the legend, as recognised by the Church of England, and as explained by such church architects as Pergusson and Parker, when alluding to the peculiar oval windows of the early Christian churches.

A decade later and the Freemasons have further refined their theory. It now appears to reflect what Faber originally offered, the watchword, along with the symbol itself. A two-part system. This is more like the system presented in "Quo Vadis?" or the "modern" conception of the early xian usage.

 

The Canadian monthly and national review, Volume 1

1872

 

One of the most ancient and important symbols of this primitive cycle was the Fish. It was exceedingly common in the second and third centuries, but in the fourth gradually fell into disuse, and had almost, if not altogether, disappeared by the beginning of the fifth. The abandonment of this remarkable symbol may be explained by its mystical and anagrammatic character. When the age of persecution passed away there was no longer need to use a tessera whose meaning was known only to the initiate, to express those religious truths which were openly proclaimed on every hand.

The symbol as a tessara, and the Freemasonic usage, is now entering mainstream publications.

 

Notes on the scientific and religious mysteries of antiquity

By John Yarker Jr.

1872

 

The learned brother, Doctor Oliver, asserts that the early Christians who met in fear and trembling, had a cross constructed -of the square, level, and plumb rule, in such a manner that if touched it fell to pieces, and the detected Christian brethren were supposed to be studying architecture. But it is asserted that they had also an "examination" similar to the other esoteric schools. An unknown stranger, seemingly acquainted with -Christianity was asked for further proof, and produced a carved figure of a fish, which was a universal password and sign over all the Christian world. He is asked its meaning and replies, let hits, which he is then required further to explain: Iota, (Jesus), Chi,(Christos),Theta, (Theos),Upsilon, ('Uios), Sigma, (Soter), Jesus, Christ, Son of God, the Saviour. They also divided Christianity into the mysteries of purification, initiation, and consummation;—Catharsis, Myestis, Teleosis—the latter being the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper. It is said that the expression " the initiated know what we say," is used fifty times by St Chrysostom.

I mention this article since it references a Dr. Oliver. This appears to be Rev. Dr. George Oliver who, from what I can tell, is probably responsible for coming up with the idea. He appears to be the one who wanted to write a history of the various Freemasonic symbols, one being the fish, and introduced the idea of the fish as a tessera. How it crossed into the mainstream I can't say but I might guess that some mainstream authors/academics read his work and/or were Freemason's themselves and it "leaked out" over time. Or did these people have less resistance within the Freemason's, who adopted their theories readily, and then the mainstream took longer to vet these same ideas? It's impossible to really know and I'm just tossing out some speculations.

 

Anyhow, the keys to this whole issue, as best as I could find, were Faber and then Oliver and the Freemasons. I would then say that "Quo Vadis?" (probably the movie) then popularized the idea as we know it today (the simple two-arc line drawing). I could not locate such a simple image, positively connected to xianity, from anytime in the first two or three centuries CE (that doesn't mean one doesn't exist and I missed it). Most fish from antiquity are complex drawings of things like dolphins (I know, not a fish...but this is their rules not mine).

 

Unless anyone has most info on this I'm probably just going to let it go and be satisfied with this. I just thought I'd post a final update.

 

mwc

[Phanta]

When I was involved with this faith group, I was taught that persecuted Christians identified each other by drawing half a fish in the dust with their toe. If the other was Christian, they would do the same, completing the fish. It is striking to me that these entries don't reference this aspect at all. A true fish story!

 

Reminds me of the "fact" told to me recently by a Christian about the 12 Days of Christmas song being a secret code song for persecuted Christians at some point hundreds of years past.

 

There seems to be much romanticism and tall tales built up around persecution against Christians. A lot of storytelling, with the details getting more elaborate by the year! The speed with which the details grew in those encyclopedia entries--just a matter of a few years--is astounding.

 

Great reading, mwc. I really enjoyed this.

 

- Phanta

[Shyone]

There seems to be much romanticism and tall tales built up around persecution against Christians. A lot of storytelling, with the details getting more elaborate by the year! The speed with which the details grew in those encyclopedia entries--just a matter of a few years--is astounding.

 

Great reading, mwc. I really enjoyed this.

 

- Phanta

Kind of like how the bible got more and more legendary as it was written, or how the legend of Jesus grew so "fast."

[Phanta]

I'm reviving this, thinking a bit more about it. I poked around in Google Books a bit and wishing I still had easy access to a library and primary sources. I love primary sources. Some ancient texts are translated on-line, though, and so my path carried me thus (nowhere nearer than you got to the secret handshake aspect, though...just more symbolism):

 

But we, being little fishes, as Jesus Christ is our great Fish, begin our

life in the water, and only while we abide in the water are we safe and sound.

 

This is 2nd century stuff. It doesn't necessarily speak to widespread symbolism, though it may be suggestive of it? Or perhaps is merely metaphor.

 

See Tertullian in de Baptismo.

 

Next is a reference to fish symbolism by Saint Clement of Alexandria in Paedagogus Book III, in the late second century:

 

And let our seals be either a dove, or a fish, or a ship scudding before the wind, or a musical lyre, which Polycrates used, or a ship's anchor, which Seleucus got engraved as a device; and if there be one fishing, he will remember the apostle, and the children drawn out of the water. For we are not to delineate the faces of idols, we who are prohibited to cleave to them; nor a sword, nor a bow, following as we do, peace; nor drinking-cups, being temperate.

 

Here is a list of quotes with poor referencing in what seems to be an appendix to some scholarly work.

 

I looked up the Origen quote and found it in his Commentary on Matthew, Book XIII, section 10.

 

I just found these and many other early reverences in this early 20th century Princeton theological review. See C.R. Morey's "The Origin of the Fish Symbol". I reckon this is where a lot of the modern essays and books are getting their info...I wonder if a thorough review of ancient texts has been done more recently.

 

A piece on symbolism on coins references protective fish symbols over doorways, and cites a Dolger Das fischsymbol in fruhchristlichen zeit which sounds interesting, if you know German. I don't, and can't find an English translation on-line.

 

I scanned what you wrote to prevent duplication, and believe I succeeded. Apologies if I failed.

 

Phanta

[mwc]

I'm reviving this, thinking a bit more about it. I poked around in Google Books a bit and wishing I still had easy access to a library and primary sources. I love primary sources. Some ancient texts are translated on-line, though, and so my path carried me thus (nowhere nearer than you got to the secret handshake aspect, though...just more symbolism):

I have to say I was a little surprised to see this thread at the top again. Usually my threads die and stay dead.

 

I just found these and many other early reverences in this early 20th century Princeton theological review. See C.R. Morey's "The Origin of the Fish Symbol". I reckon this is where a lot of the modern essays and books are getting their info...I wonder if a thorough review of ancient texts has been done more recently.

 

A piece on symbolism on coins references protective fish symbols over doorways, and cites a Dolger Das fischsymbol in fruhchristlichen zeit which sounds interesting, if you know German. I don't, and can't find an English translation on-line.

I'll take a look at these. Thanks. I don't read German but not knowing a language hasn't stopped me yet.

 

mwc

[Phanta]

I'm reviving this, thinking a bit more about it. I poked around in Google Books a bit and wishing I still had easy access to a library and primary sources. I love primary sources. Some ancient texts are translated on-line, though, and so my path carried me thus (nowhere nearer than you got to the secret handshake aspect, though...just more symbolism):

I have to say I was a little surprised to see this thread at the top again. Usually my threads die and stay dead.

 

I like this stuff!

 

I just found these and many other early reverences in this early 20th century Princeton theological review. See C.R. Morey's "The Origin of the Fish Symbol". I reckon this is where a lot of the modern essays and books are getting their info...I wonder if a thorough review of ancient texts has been done more recently.

 

A piece on symbolism on coins references protective fish symbols over doorways, and cites a Dolger Das fischsymbol in fruhchristlichen zeit which sounds interesting, if you know German. I don't, and can't find an English translation on-line.

I'll take a look at these. Thanks. I don't read German but not knowing a language hasn't stopped me yet.

 

mwc

 

I'd love to hear what you determine and any interesting discoveries.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

Have you seen Morgan Peter Kavanagh's Origin of Language and Myths from 1871?

 

I also found this piece connecting fish symbolism with Disciplina Arcani...first printed in 1880.

 

What is the earliest date you found a reference to secrecy around the fish symbol?

 

Something I don't understand... Some of these authors have said that they hid from persecution, known only by their fish symbols, which was easy to use to hide because it was used symbolically by the Pagans. In which case, my question is, how the heck did anyone use the fish, then, to tell them apart???

 

P

[ShakenNotStirred]

Secret handshakes, code symbols for meeting places, holiday songs with encrypted meaning... so much for not 'hiding it under a bushel'!

[mwc]

Have you seen Morgan Peter Kavanagh's Origin of Language and Myths from 1871?

 

I also found this piece connecting fish symbolism with Disciplina Arcani...first printed in 1880.

 

What is the earliest date you found a reference to secrecy around the fish symbol?

 

Something I don't understand... Some of these authors have said that they hid from persecution, known only by their fish symbols, which was easy to use to hide because it was used symbolically by the Pagans. In which case, my question is, how the heck did anyone use the fish, then, to tell them apart???

The oldest thing I remember finding was some reference in Latin from the Middle Ages. I remember it wasn't like the later references that you're reading and that made me question the whole mess a lot.

 

I remember a lot about what you're reading now. Go read about the Rosicrucians. Things will make a lot more sense to you after that. They were persecuted prior to the texts you're reading. They used symbols that were similar to those around them but not identical and that's how they knew at a glance who was with/against them. Some of these same people also got caught up with Freemasonry and over the years the whole thing got conflated (along with some Roman practices) and anachronistically projected back onto the early xians. Which means that the very methods that these later people used during their persecutions seemed like good ideas for the early xians to be using as well.

 

This is why in the catacombs they still can't decide which parts are xian, pagan or Jewish. They all use the same symbols. So unless there are more clues they just sort of "guess." In the oldest parts they declare them pagan and maybe Jewish. Then they have all three. Then they phase out the pagan and Jewish as we move forward in time. It's kind of a mess. So they have places where they decide that the xians were being persecuted and point to the fish symbols on the catacombs as evidence but these could just as easily be pagan or Jewish. They just date them to a time when xians should have been persecuted so they're xian. When xianity becomes legal the fish symbol goes pretty much extinct and the cross becomes dominant pretty quickly. So either the xians that used it change their mind, are offed by another sect, or it wasn't xian after all and whoever used it went away. It's strange that it just fades so quickly from the scene being the dominant symbol for so long.

 

Anyhow, I'm just kind of wandering around from memory now... What I wanted to say is you have to read up on the persecution and the catacombs, especially what some of the writers from the 1800's have to say about it since that's where a lot of these theories sort of "appear" on the scene with little to no justification.

 

mwc

[Guest I Love Dog]

An interesting article:

 

Oxyrhynchus, named for the 'sharp-nosed fish' (the sturgeon) which the city held sacred. According to legend, this fish ate the phallus of Osiris when the god’s body was cut into pieces by his brother Seth. Isis, as 'Abtu, Great Fish of the Abyss,' was identified with the penis-swallower. The fish cult spread to many parts of Egypt.

 

During Roman times, Oxyrhynchus became a large and sophisticated town (the third city of Egypt), controlling access to the western oases.

 

The city had about twenty pagan temples but by the 4th century Oxyrhynchus had become a hotbed of Christianity. Rufinus reported 12 churches as of the early 5th century (and added that the local bishop told him of 'the presence of 10,000 monks and 20,000 nuns'!) A papyrus dated to 535 gives a figure of some 40 churches for the city.

 

Thanks to http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/hypatia.html#oxyrhynchus

 

So, it's possibly Egyptian in origin, as were many later Christian rituals, doctrines and dogma; Stations of the Cross, The Trinity, Holy Water, Relic Worship, Monasticism, The Cross, and more.

[Phanta]

An interesting article:

 

Oxyrhynchus, named for the 'sharp-nosed fish' (the sturgeon) which the city held sacred. According to legend, this fish ate the phallus of Osiris when the god’s body was cut into pieces by his brother Seth. Isis, as 'Abtu, Great Fish of the Abyss,' was identified with the penis-swallower. The fish cult spread to many parts of Egypt.

 

During Roman times, Oxyrhynchus became a large and sophisticated town (the third city of Egypt), controlling access to the western oases.

 

The city had about twenty pagan temples but by the 4th century Oxyrhynchus had become a hotbed of Christianity. Rufinus reported 12 churches as of the early 5th century (and added that the local bishop told him of 'the presence of 10,000 monks and 20,000 nuns'!) A papyrus dated to 535 gives a figure of some 40 churches for the city.

 

Thanks to http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/hypatia.html#oxyrhynchus

 

So, it's possibly Egyptian in origin, as were many later Christian rituals, doctrines and dogma; Stations of the Cross, The Trinity, Holy Water, Relic Worship, Monasticism, The Cross, and more.

 

Huh. Interesting. The guy is crap at citing sources, though. I'd love to look into this further, but I'm not up for reading every book in the long list of sources he has at the top of the page... Usually an article has specific references in it. Bummer. I'll do a google scholar/books search on some of the terms later.

 

P

[mwc]

An interesting article:

 

Oxyrhynchus, named for the 'sharp-nosed fish' (the sturgeon) which the city held sacred. According to legend, this fish ate the phallus of Osiris when the god’s body was cut into pieces by his brother Seth. Isis, as 'Abtu, Great Fish of the Abyss,' was identified with the penis-swallower. The fish cult spread to many parts of Egypt.

 

During Roman times, Oxyrhynchus became a large and sophisticated town (the third city of Egypt), controlling access to the western oases.

 

The city had about twenty pagan temples but by the 4th century Oxyrhynchus had become a hotbed of Christianity. Rufinus reported 12 churches as of the early 5th century (and added that the local bishop told him of 'the presence of 10,000 monks and 20,000 nuns'!) A papyrus dated to 535 gives a figure of some 40 churches for the city.

 

Thanks to http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/hypatia.html#oxyrhynchus

 

So, it's possibly Egyptian in origin, as were many later Christian rituals, doctrines and dogma; Stations of the Cross, The Trinity, Holy Water, Relic Worship, Monasticism, The Cross, and more.

I wandered off to that web page and it mentioned all sorts of things I couldn't confirm. I tried tracking down papyrus 4440 but it looks like translations are for sale only. I managed to track down a free copy in Greek and spent a little time trying to make sense of it myself. Either I got a hold of the wrong document or my translation skills are much worse than I thought (this is certainly a possibility...I've discovered many mistakes in what little bit I've done).

 

I saw a lot of mentions of various cults in the area and it seems there is some sort of call to action (a registration? maybe a census of some sort?). It looks like the various groups are calling themselves "brothers" (adelphos) and it seems they should hurry on over for whatever is going on. I'm not noticing any fishing references though. Lots of racing references (dromo) which seems to me to indicate the urgency of what's going on (like when you're having a sale you need to tell people to "race on over"). This seems similar. It mentions Osiris (as Onnophris) and Serapis (as something else) and a number of others. It might be eleven. I didn't count since I haven't sorted out the various forms.

 

Anyhow, I just don't see a thing about about fishermen, or fish for that matter, in this document. It seems to be a red herring.

 

mwc

[ShakenNotStirred]

According to legend, this fish ate the phallus of Osiris when the god’s body was cut into pieces by his brother Seth

 

I'm sorry, can you explain that in layman's terms please?

[mwc]

According to legend, this fish ate the phallus of Osiris when the god’s body was cut into pieces by his brother Seth

 

I'm sorry, can you explain that in layman's terms please?

You can read more about it here. You'll find it specifically in the 2nd variation.

 

mwc