Seeking Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 I apologize in advance for the unruly length of this post! Just today I received a very long e-mail from my mom in which she went on at great length about how I am judging God, how unanswered prayers aren't a sign that God doesn't exist, and how the OT atrocities were justified. Here are excerpts: There are people who have a great emotional experiences. Emotion isn't faith. I'm not saying that people can't get emotional about God, but even if they get something more tangible as 'proof,' that's not faith. Faith is the 'evidence of things NOT seen.' So thinking that you are just talking to the inside of your head doesn't mean God doesn't exist. I believe we have three options [to describe the origins of the universe]: A pre-existent universe with no creator, in which case nothing is required of us and we go merrily on our way until we return to dust We have a god of our own making - in other words, custom made by us to suit us A pre-existent God who was the first cause of everything else, and who created the earth - the God of the Bible. You have this notion that you had a right to pass judgment on the God of the Universe, and when you decided He didn't measure up, you were done with Him. I can't address the discrepancies you perceived in the Old Testament. Whatever they are, they do not destroy the basic theme of man's fall from grace and his redemption by a sinless and loving Savior. I think it's also important to realize that all the violence that Israel executed on surrounding nations at God's command was God using Israel itself to bring justice to a sinful nation. God never brings judgment on sinless people. And Israel learned from this that a) God is gracious and long-suffering to those who love Him, b )God is holy and just and we have no business trifling with Him, c) God will bring judgment on those who turn from Him. I really believe that you have mis-perceptions about a few very important things. That you had expectations of what Faith was supposed to look like, and because you didn't have that, you perceived God as not willing to give you faith. That you had your own ideas of what God was supposed to be like, and didn't like what you saw in the God of the Bible That you had this notion that you had a right to pass judgment on the God of the Universe, and when you decided He didn't measure up, you were done with Him. Faith is simply putting your trust in Jesus to save you. It is not bells and whistles, wonderful feelings, or miracles. It is daily, actively placing your trust in Jesus, the only way that God has provided for us to have peace with Him. God does not owe us a feeling or a sign. I don't know whether or not I'll bother replying, but since it bothers me that she has such a skewed perception of my beliefs, I'm considering addressing her as follows: Thank you for your e-mail. I'm sorry to see that I didn't explain myself well enough during our discussion when you were here. I feared that might be the case. What you said ("How do we actively put our faith in Jesus daily? Just by doing it,") is exactly what I did for 20 years, all the while becoming increasingly filled with doubt and unanswerable questions. I know feelings aren't faith. That's why, after 20 years of unanswered prayers for peace, I gave up on feelings and went back to the Bible to take it at its word without the current feel-good emphasis that is being taught in so many churches these days. That's why I prayed for God to help me understand the Bible the way he intended, for the holy spirit to open my eyes to his truth. I went back to the Bible to learn what it actually said, to read it as though it were for the first time, without preconceived notions. The problems I ultimately had with the Bible aren't with the Old Testament atrocities. Those were just one small push along the road to where I am now. Sadly, the 35 years I spent in Christianity taught me well to view other people's suffering as nothing more than what they deserve. I was able to justify and dismiss those horrific acts for years by shutting down my compassion and purposely not viewing them as real people. The inexcusable problems I found in the Bible were the inconsistencies, errors, and blatant contradictions. I know Dad said, "There are no contradictions in the Bible," but there are! And they aren't just my "opinion," as he condescendingly insisted during our discussion, or my "perception". When I read the Bible again, the cognitive dissonance simply became too great, and I could no longer force myself to "just believe" something that was clearly not inspired, not inerrant, and not true. It is so obvious to me now that the Bible is a work of ancient, chauvinistic, uneducated, power-hungry men. And nothing more. Where I am now, however, is far beyond this. Because of the Bible’s internal problems, and the realization that it is not true, I've spent the last year really studying the Bible, reading what it actually says (not what apologists want me to think it says), studying the history of that time and region, learning about who the Israelites and their neighbors were, learning about who actually wrote the Bible, learning what the archaeological records actually show.... I've seen the man behind the curtain, and I have not the slightest doubt that Christianity is a sham. As is Judaism. As is Islam. As is every other religion man ever invented. At the beginning of your e-mail, you said that we have three options. Your third option is “A pre-existent God who was the first cause of everything else, and who created the earth – the God of the Bible.” Why does it have to be the god of the Bible? When I asked this question during our discussion, Dad's answer was, "Because the Bible is unique. Adam lived for 900 years and was an eyewitness to everything that happened in the first part of Genesis, and he told Moses about it, and Moses wrote it all down." I know you are both literalists when it comes to the Bible, but there are fundamental flaws in that belief! For one thing, if Dad truly believes that, he must be disregarding the basic math: According to Genesis, Adam lived 900 years, but the flood was 750 years after Adam died, and Moses was around 900 years after the flood! Even if Adam somehow survived his own death and lived 1600 years beyond it, then Dad must think Adam rode in the ark with Noah! (This is setting aside all of the evidence that shows Moses was not the author of the Pentateuch, by the way.) You say that I’m “passing judgment on God.” Please seriously think about this for a moment. I am not joking when I ask if you are passing judgment on Zeus. How about Allah? Krishna? Ashtoreth? Ra? Isis? Horus? Kokopelli? Vishnu? Athena? Or any of the thousands of other gods that other people worship/worshipped? How are you so certain that none of them is real? You do realize that in every other religion that has ever existed, adherents have had the same faith you do that their religion/god is the right one. Every single person who worships a different god has the same certainty you do! Why do you think you have the truth? Just as you think they are deluded, they are fully confident that you are the deluded one. In every religion, people have mystical experiences. They think their prayers are answered. They have faith. They think they witness miracles. How do you explain that? Why does every other religion have followers who have just as much faith and devotion as you, and who feel just as fulfilled in their beliefs as you? Consider this theologian's comment about God: "I ask Him something and supplicate Him and He answers in words full of power. If this should happen a thousand times, He does not fail to answer. In His words...He makes it clear that He alone is the one who should be called God. He accepts prayers and intimates their acceptance. He resolves great difficulties and through repeated supplications, revives those who are sick unto death. He discloses all these designs in advance through His word.... He proves that He is the God of heaven and earth.'" This is a comment from a Muslim Imam. Also, think about this: There are currently 35,000 Christian denominations (distinct denominations, not individual churches), each of which disagrees with all of the others on at least one point of doctrine. Yet each of them believes that their viewpoint is the right one. Each of them believes that the holy spirit is giving them the correct interpretation of the Bible. They can’t all be right! How do you know that you are one of the lucky few who got it right, even within the confines of Christianity? You said, “I love you more than you can imagine, and want you too to know the joy and peace that I have.... I am FREE!!!” I love you too, Mom, and I do appreciate your concern, but I DO finally feel true peace and joy, something Christianity never gave me. I feel like a fog has lifted from my mind because I can, at last, acknowledge the truth and because I am finally free of the mental anguish religion imposed on me. Is that too harsh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted March 29, 2010 Super Moderator Share Posted March 29, 2010 I don't know the relationship the two of you have, but the letter is an excellent response in my opinion. Just remember, there is no argument, fact or anything else that can counter blind faith. The bottom line is that you require some evidence to believe a thing to be true, and she doesn't. In some cases it's better to be kind than to be right. You have to make that call. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
★ Citsonga ★ Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Whether or not you send a reply will have to be your decision. As for myself, it would be difficult for me to not respond to such mischaracterization. Anyway, what you have composed so far sounds pretty good, but I do have one suggestion about the "judging god" issue: You say that I’m “passing judgment on God.” Please seriously think about this for a moment. I am not joking when I ask if you are passing judgment on Zeus. How about Allah? Krishna? Ashtoreth? Ra? Isis? Horus? Kokopelli? Vishnu? Athena? Or any of the thousands of other gods that other people worship/worshipped? How are you so certain that none of them is real? You do realize that in every other religion that has ever existed, adherents have had the same faith you do that their religion/god is the right one. Every single person who worships a different god has the same certainty you do! Why do you think you have the truth? Just as you think they are deluded, they are fully confident that you are the deluded one. In every religion, people have mystical experiences. They think their prayers are answered. They have faith. They think they witness miracles. How do you explain that? Why does every other religion have followers who have just as much faith and devotion as you, and who feel just as fulfilled in their beliefs as you? What I would stress regarding this issue is that what you are passing judgment on is MAN'S WRITINGS about god, NOT god himself. At any rate, whatever you decide to do, good luck.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centauri Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 ....That you had this notion that you had a right to pass judgment on the God of the Universe, and when you decided He didn't measure up, you were done with Him. However, the God of the Universe hasn't actually been established or validated. The "God" of the Bible could just as easily be an alien posing as the God of the Universe. It certainly wouldn't be difficult to fool humans into thinking that. I don't see why you should feel any obligation to accept the theological baggage that someone else wants you to carry around with you for life. Even having the status of a parent doesn't mean that the child is obligated to agree with them in all matters, especially an area as subjective as religion. People pass judgment every day by deciding what to eat, what to wear, and when to do things. Why should you wear a coat that fits someone else and not you? Is it wrong to reject such a garment if after examining it, you decide that it doesn't measure up or is of poor quality? When younger, would your parents have forced you to wear shoes that the shoe store salesman said was a perfect fit and made by a famous designer, even if they were several sizes too small? Wouldn't they have asked "How do the shoes feel on you, are they comfortable, can you walk in them?". Why is religion magically different than wearing a coat or a pair of shoes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Is that too harsh? I think it was spot on. Not too harsh, supported pretty well (as well as possible in a small letter), and it seemed to me to address her objections directly. I have a couple comments on your mother's letter. Just can't help myself... So thinking that you are just talking to the inside of your head doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Unfortunately, even hearing voices in your head doesn't mean he Does exist. I believe we have three options [to describe the origins of the universe]: Only three? She's now an astrophysicist? Aside from the use of Occam's razor, you have pointed out that there is not necessarily any connection between Yahweh and the universe. The mental contortions necessary to get God out of a single event in the distant past are astonishing, particularly when gods are no better than no explanation at all. I can't address the discrepancies you perceived in the Old Testament. Whatever they are, they do not destroy the basic theme of man's fall from grace and his redemption by a sinless and loving Savior. The logic train behind the "loving Savior" requires 1) that the OT correctly presents God's word, 2) that prophecy exists, that 3) the prophecies have been correctly interpreted and that 4) one man can screw up humanity for generations and another man's execution can absolve humanity of the original screwup. Neither of these premises in #4 makes any sense and the concept is contrary to any sense of right or wrong. Even the bible says that men shall not be punished for the sins of others, and executing innocent men for the crimes of the guilty is absolutely preposterous! Even putting aside the symbolic cannibalism, human sacrifice became declase a long time ago. Faith is simply putting your trust in Jesus to save you. Implied threat here. Save from what, exactly? Loving savior will torture you forever by allowing Hell to exist? God too weak to eliminate this really bad idea? If evil is a problem for the existence of God, then hell is an even bigger problem. No forgiveness? No mercy? No reprieve? God's eternal Auschwitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeking Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 Thanks for all your replies! I think I'm going to hold off on sending it. Like I mentioned above, it really bugs me that she has such an inaccurate view of my beliefs, but I keep asking myself what good will come of trying to correct her? Lots to think about.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Thanks for all your replies! I think I'm going to hold off on sending it. Like I mentioned above, it really bugs me that she has such an inaccurate view of my beliefs, but I keep asking myself what good will come of trying to correct her? Lots to think about.... Your answers were good but I would probably not reply to your mom like that. Try a different approach. She's accusing you of turning your back on "god." Her "god" is a parent. I would approach all this from that point of view. Mother's generally don't like neglectful parents. So would she approve of a parent that willfully ignored the cries of her children? Would she approve of a parent that used one child to attack and "discipline" other children for breaking rules? What about when you bring these concerns to "god" all you got was silence but when you bring them to your parents they show concern? They are worried about your faith? Your well-being? They show the very things that the "ultimate parent" failed on every level to show time and again? They succeed where it failed. A child will die of exposure if someone doesn't nurture it. "Faith" will never take the place of that. Never. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antlerman Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Is that too harsh? It's obviously a personal relationship behind all the points raised, but I think you made honest points that communicates both your sincerity and your diligence in having actually put a lot of thought into this for yourself. That fact, in and of itself, expresses someone who cares enough to look deep, and is not willy-nilly "turning their back on God", sort of thing. You are looking for truth and love and hope, but are just not finding that system working for you. If they hear nothing else, that message is there in there. The difficulty for them will be hearing your voice as it truly is, because they connect all of these things within the symbolic framework of their system. For you, I hope you hear that as well from them. They love as much as you, they believe as much (within their context), and they care as much. The hardest thing is that people get hung up on their context, their language of expression as the source of that Truth to them, when in reality - it's in their hearts, theirs and yours. I think your email is what you need to say, and it does it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 I enjoyed reading your reply, Seeking, whatever the case, but it may be that it is a little too long-winded for your mom to truly absorb the points you want to make. I found this particularly interesting though, in what your mom said: We have a god of our own making - in other words, custom made by us to suit us Ummm....isn't that really what all religions really do thru the stretch of time ? And isn't that how many non-believers see Christianity ? It might be simpler to just reply to your mom that you don't see any difference between "point 2 and point 3" here. Anyway, I still think it's better to have a good family relationship with members rather than get bogged down in theology and religious differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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