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Guest Perfect Insanity

I'm Completely Lost...

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If it's possible to 100% prove it to be false, then why hasn't anyone done it? I'm assuming no one has, but then again, if anyone had then I would think it would be all over the news and everywhere else. I doubt there would be as many believers as there are if that was the case. When I say believers, I don't mean the people who just go to church and believe whatever they're told by the preacher. I'm talking about the few percentage of Christians who actually know their Bible from cover to cover.

 

Christianity HAS been proven false, it's just that christians in general are more interested in "just having faith," sticking their heads in the sand or else rationalizing things away instead of really thinking critically and examining the evidence. I know, I've been there.

 

The news media isn't interested in getting into this sort of religious debate, especially given that much of their audience is made up of believers. So, no, don't expect the media to blare out "Christianity proven false." Nor will you see them saying "Islam proven false," but does that mean that Islam is true?

 

You mention those who know their bible from cover to cover, but many ex-christians lost our faith precisely because of learning too much about the bible. I've read it cover to cover multiple times, memorized huge portions (including three whole books), studied, prayed, sought god, followed apologetics, the whole nine yards. A pastor approached me and said that I should consider going into the ministry because of having more bible knowledge than most.

 

The resurrection is the most important part of christianity, wouldn't you say? Yet take a look at the resurrection accounts in the gospels, read them in parallel with each other. What you'll find is that they are a contradictory mess, and some of the details are impossible to reconcile. If this was god's inspired account, wouldn't he be consistent with himself?

 

Look at the way the gospel writers fabricated prophetic fulfillments by taking OT texts completely out of context. If they had a true story to tell, then why would they have to resort to such tactics?

 

There are loads of other problems with the bible and problems with the way apologists twist things to try to make the bible sound rational, way too much to cram into a little message board post. It takes a while for it all to sink in. I should know, I was 100% convinced that christianity was absolute truth for the majority of my life thus far. I didn't start questioning until I was 29, but as my critical thinking abilities grew, I began to see more and more clearly how false christianity is.

 

In the academic world, it's quite clearly known that christianity is mythology. Don't expect to hear that at church, though, because your church doesn't want to lose members. But christianity IS mythology, and that IS a fact.

 

Good luck as you try to sort out this stuff. It takes time, and a lot has been brought up in this thread, and there's much more that could be said. Don't throw in the towel, though, even if you feel overwhelmed. Take it slowly and investigate the stuff that's been brought up here, and do it at your own leisurely pace. Overcoming indoctrination can be difficult, but it's not impossible.

 

Again, good luck....

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I think I've come to a conclusion. That conclusion is the fact that I give up. This is it. I'm not searching anymore. Whatever truth is out there, I don't care, because I won't find it. I still believe in God. But I also believe that God never intended to save me. I have been rejected, like many others apparently, before I was even born. I don't have a choice in much, if any, of this. This whole time I've been fighting, searching, praying, seeking, simply because of the fact that I don't want to go to hell. Now I'm starting to realize that maybe, probably, I don't have a choice. That's my destiny, if all of this is real. Not because I want to. I've called on God in depression, anxiety, confusion, anger, hopelessness, and guilt, for my few years of serious faith. God wasn't there. I'm not saying any of this to slander God, Christianity, religion, or any of that. I'm simply stating the fact that, if all this is true, there's no hope. This is just how it is. If I'm "saved", I wouldn't be feeling the way I am about all of this. If I was saved, I would have a genuine relationship with Christ. I don't. I have placed my faith in Christ in genuine, heartfelt repentance multiple times. I've even been baptized twice. I've tried my best to forgive others. I've done everything that the Bible states to be right with God. If I'm not saved now, it means that I never was saved, and can't ever be saved, simple as that. If this salvation is real, I ain't eligible for it. That much is clear.

A bit of encouragement here, at the moment you feel that you have reached some sort of conclusion and that you don't want to continue searching, it sounds to me like you are clinging onto the god belief by your fingernails, I think you will continue your search in the future. Please don't give up and sink back into irrational belief and thinking. The truth will set you free, and that truth is that there are no gods, no afterlife, no heaven, no hell, no angels, no demons, no soul etc etc. It is TOTALLY LIBERATING when you realise the truth.

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Guest confused idiot

I don't know much about evidence. All I know is that the God that I have prayed to is NOT there. The real question is this... Why? Was I rejected for some reason? Am I forever damned and cut off? Am I too sinful? Or maybe this is all in my head, and it's all a fairy tale? Has to be one of these, unless I've completely missed something.

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I don't know much about evidence.

 

You've got time. We're all continually learning, so just take it at your own pace.

 

All I know is that the God that I have prayed to is NOT there. The real question is this... Why?

 

Maybe you prayed to the wrong god. Or maybe god doesn't like you. Or maybe god just started the ball rolling and doesn't bother himself with being involved in the world beyond creation. Or maybe god doesn't exist.

 

Was I rejected for some reason? Am I forever damned and cut off? Am I too sinful?

 

Are you a vile, evil person that someone would have valid reasons to reject you? Most likely not, I would suspect. I personally think you're still too plagued with the self-loathing indoctrination of the christian myth. You know, the ol' "filthy rags" nonsense. It can be very difficult to overcome that mindset once it's deeply ingrained.

 

Or maybe this is all in my head, and it's all a fairy tale?

 

This would be my answer. Christianity is false, it's a myth, a fairy tale. I used to be 100% into it myself, only to later realize that it was all in my head. From my perspective, you're in a very similar situation to what I was in a handful of years ago.

 

Has to be one of these, unless I've completely missed something.

 

Offhand, no other option pops into my mind.

 

Looking at this rationally, what would you expect to see in our world if an all-powerful, all-loving god existed, and what would you expect if such a god did not exist?

 

If such a god existed, wouldn't god want to respond to honest inquiry? Wouldn't god make himself obvious to people rather than expecting them to go on subjective personal feelings and the hearsay of others? Wouldn't god make provisions for all the suffering people in the world?

 

If such a god didn't exist, wouldn't it serve to reason that you could feel the emptiness you feel in your search for god? Wouldn't it serve to reason that there wouldn't be any obvious manifestation of his existence? Wouldn't it serve to reason that "evidence" of god would be highly subjective feelings and hearsay? Wouldn't it serve to reason that there would be people who lack basic necessities of life?

 

Which of those categories does our world fall into? Which model's predictions fit reality?

 

I, for one, can no longer believe in an all-powerful and all-benevolent god. Either god doesn't exist or god doesn't care. In either case, why should we bother with bogging our lives down with the concept of god? Why not just do the best we can with life, be reasonable and caring toward others, and avoid relying on superstitious nonsense that will not better people's lives at all (and in some cases can be very damaging)? Why not try to live a decent, honest, moral life without worrying about some invisible being? Do grown adults really need imaginary friends?

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I don't know much about evidence. All I know is that the God that I have prayed to is NOT there. The real question is this... Why? Was I rejected for some reason? Am I forever damned and cut off? Am I too sinful? Or maybe this is all in my head, and it's all a fairy tale? Has to be one of these, unless I've completely missed something.

That's essentially what happened to me. Poof, it was gone. I have thought all of these years that it was because I had been studying science, learning, reading (including the bible), and "putting it all together."

 

It's like a light switch went off in my head. The intellectual part that had been learning finally lined up with the spiritual, and the Holy Ghost was like other ghosts I just didn't believe in. The writings of men of faith seemed empty and contrived.

 

I know you have had a lot of recommendations about a lot of videos. You could spend hours and hours looking at videos. I'm still going to recommend one more series.

 

The creator of the series is "Evid3nc3." He was a deep believer who has examined his faith from every side and explains how it is possible to maintain faith even though there are some things that are not supported (or even contradicted) by evidence. He is compassionate and understanding, and his videos are detailed and explain exactly what happened.

 

I would start with

and go through the series, but even if you only
you will have an idea of why faith can evaporate despite trying desperately to hold on to it.

 

For your convenience, I will place the first video here:

 

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I know you have had a lot of recommendations about a lot of videos. You could spend hours and hours looking at videos. I'm still going to recommend one more series.

 

The creator of the series is "Evid3nc3." He was a deep believer who has examined his faith from every side and explains how it is possible to maintain faith even though there are some things that are not supported (or even contradicted) by evidence. He is compassionate and understanding, and his videos are detailed and explain exactly what happened.

 

I would start with

and go through the series, but even if you only
you will have an idea of why faith can evaporate despite trying desperately to hold on to it.

 

Very good series. I thought about posting it as well, but didn't want to risk bombarding him with too much (given how much has been posted in the thread already). But, yeah, that's definitely a great video series.

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Since it's not a testimonial, I moved it to Colosseum.

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I don't know much about evidence. All I know is that the God that I have prayed to is NOT there. The real question is this... Why? Was I rejected for some reason? Am I forever damned and cut off? Am I too sinful? Or maybe this is all in my head, and it's all a fairy tale? Has to be one of these, unless I've completely missed something.

 

To Confused, thoughtful, intelligent and I suspect quite beautiful person,

 

I have walked in your shoes. I have had all those thoughts. I spent years begging God to be part of my life, begging him to reveal himself to me the way other Christians claimed he had to them, begging those around me to tell me what I was doing wrong, why God didn't want me, why he wouldn't help me with the bigger and bigger mess my life seemed to be becoming. I wondered if I was someone who wasn't meant to be saved but for some reason wanted to be.

 

That is all in the past now. I no longer believe any of it. Christianity is not the truth. That is clear to me now. From the beginning of allowing myself to ask the question "Is this really true?", my eyes have gradually been opened. I am free now. I don't cry or agonise about this stuff any more. I have a good life. It's been hard work finding a new world view and building my life on a new foundation but it feels soooo good. You can have this too. Start questioning, or rather, keep questioning, because if you've come here you've obviously already started. Read, learn, talk to us here, keep thinking. You won't find answers immediately. You may never be sure of the truth. Part of my journey has been learning to accept that I can't really ever be sure if there is any kind of god out there. But I am sure that Christianity is nonsensical and toxic.

 

You said "All I know is that the God that I have prayed to is NOT there." And to that I say "Yup".

 

Just to add- you don't have to throw away the idea of a higher power right here and now. I'm not an atheist personally though I know many here are. You can break out of the Christian religion without leaping immediately to a confident atheism.

 

I think you're on your way to a new life :).

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I don't know much about evidence. All I know is that the God that I have prayed to is NOT there. The real question is this... Why? Was I rejected for some reason? Am I forever damned and cut off? Am I too sinful? Or maybe this is all in my head, and it's all a fairy tale? Has to be one of these, unless I've completely missed something.

 

Confused,

 

In Jan of 2009 I was in much this situation. I know your reality is uniquely yours and nobody can truly know what you are personally going through, but I hear the echoes of the same outcries in the words you write.

 

I had reached the conclusion that a sick, twisted , extreme form of Calvinism was in play. "I must be one of the pre-destined damned." Why would one of the pre-destined damned care about being right with God or having a relationship with Him? Why would such a person care about knowing He is real? It wouldn't matter to God what a member of the predestined damned wanted! They were damned - - forgotten and cast off!

 

Somewhere within me, I realized that was an irrational and pointless worldview. The simplest resolution was that God does not exist - - at least not a Christian God who cares and is involved.

 

It has been a stressful transition. It still is.

 

Like you, I felt stupid. I felt gullible and weak-minded. And I didn't know much about evidence or reason, or logic or science. At least I didn't know as much as I thought I did. However, in the months since my deconversion I have been seeking such knowledge. I have tried to develop my reasoning skills.

 

And though I am not there yet, emotionally speaking, I believe the active search for such knowledge has improved my depression, lifted me from despair and given me an avenue where I can feel better about myself despite the foolish path I took 30 years ago.

 

It sounds like you know the direction you have to take. this website is full of some excellent pointers to resources where you will find what you need.

 

I wish you the best in your struggle to feel good about yourself in this world.

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Guest confused idiot

I appreciate all of your advice and support. You've all made very good points. All this is really starting to make me think. If "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" then why have none of us been able to truly find and know him? It doesn't make sense. It's something to think about.

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Guest Valk0010

I appreciate all of your advice and support. You've all made very good points. All this is really starting to make me think. If "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" then why have none of us been able to truly find and know him? It doesn't make sense. It's something to think about.

you will do fine man.

 

but one thing

 

change you name

 

your asking questions a idiot would never do that

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Guest confused idiot

I appreciate all of your advice and support. You've all made very good points. All this is really starting to make me think. If "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" then why have none of us been able to truly find and know him? It doesn't make sense. It's something to think about.

you will do fine man.

 

but one thing

 

change you name

 

your asking questions a idiot would never do that

 

You can change your username? I didn't know that. Personally, I think I deserve this name.

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I appreciate all of your advice and support. You've all made very good points. All this is really starting to make me think. If "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" then why have none of us been able to truly find and know him? It doesn't make sense. It's something to think about.

you will do fine man.

 

but one thing

 

change you name

 

your asking questions a idiot would never do that

 

You can change your username? I didn't know that. Personally, I think I deserve this name.

No you don't. Regardless of what you decide, there is nothing idiotic about learning, thinking and exploring.

 

I know what it feels like to have felt like you have been fooled beyond measure. I also know what it's like to think that your searches are foolish and a sane person would just turn back.

 

Although unimaginative (my lack of imagination), a nickname like "Human Being" would fit you better. That's all any of us are, and it's sometimes painful and lonely to "take the road less travelled." But you'll find it makes all the difference.

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I appreciate all of your advice and support. You've all made very good points. All this is really starting to make me think. If "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" then why have none of us been able to truly find and know him? It doesn't make sense. It's something to think about.

 

.... "confused" .... There are countless verses in the bible that can make absolutely NO sense! One that immediately comes to mind is luke 7 v 7. "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find, knock, and it shall be opened unto you." Oh how true this verse ACTUALLY is but in a reverse manner! The more I sought from within the parameters of the bible and the christian religion the LESS I found. It was NOT until I look back after stepping away from christianity I have truly found this part of this verse to be true! If you truly seek you WILL find! You WILL get there but you HAVE to keep searching yourself and search outside the distorted boundaries of the bible! GOOD LUCK!!

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Guest confused idiot

I've been thinking about this thing... and the more I analyze it, the more I realise.. It's over. My faith, for the most part, is pretty much dead. My faith has been dying slowly for the past few years. During that time, I would cry out to God, pray often, for various reasons. I always felt rejected, I could never experience that intimacy with God that many others talked about. My questions got bigger, my confusion got worse, depression and anxiety took root, and I got worse over time. All this time, I've been praying and searching, thinking that one day God would just come through and make something snap together in my head and everything would make sense and be better. Now I realise that isn't going to happen. As far as my faith goes, I can only get worse. I can't get better. I still believe with most of my heart that there's a creator out there, but I'm also open minded enough to consider the possibility that there might not be. I don't know why I can't seem to get it through my head that there's no improving my faith from this point on. I know that and see that, yet fear of judgment makes me keep looking for a way out. The only way out I see is apostasy. I don't like that option. I will continue to try and learn about beliefs, evolution, etc.

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I've been thinking about this thing... and the more I analyze it, the more I realise.. It's over. My faith, for the most part, is pretty much dead. My faith has been dying slowly for the past few years. During that time, I would cry out to God, pray often, for various reasons. I always felt rejected, I could never experience that intimacy with God that many others talked about. My questions got bigger, my confusion got worse, depression and anxiety took root, and I got worse over time. All this time, I've been praying and searching, thinking that one day God would just come through and make something snap together in my head and everything would make sense and be better. Now I realise that isn't going to happen. As far as my faith goes, I can only get worse. I can't get better. I still believe with most of my heart that there's a creator out there, but I'm also open minded enough to consider the possibility that there might not be. I don't know why I can't seem to get it through my head that there's no improving my faith from this point on. I know that and see that, yet fear of judgment makes me keep looking for a way out. The only way out I see is apostasy. I don't like that option. I will continue to try and learn about beliefs, evolution, etc.

 

I think your resolve to continue to learn is a good path to follow. Learn as much as you can about as much as you can. And don't forget to seek to know yourself better as well.

 

Good luck to you and never hesitate to post any questions or concerns you have about the path your life is taking. The people here are a great source of insight and information.

 

And, I agree that you would serve yourself well to change your user name. We have all felt like confused idiots from time to time. But that just means we are all fallible humans. That might be a good username. Or "fallible dude" Or practically anything but "confused idiot." I don't think you do yourself justice by that name.

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Guest confused idiot

I've been thinking about this thing... and the more I analyze it, the more I realise.. It's over. My faith, for the most part, is pretty much dead. My faith has been dying slowly for the past few years. During that time, I would cry out to God, pray often, for various reasons. I always felt rejected, I could never experience that intimacy with God that many others talked about. My questions got bigger, my confusion got worse, depression and anxiety took root, and I got worse over time. All this time, I've been praying and searching, thinking that one day God would just come through and make something snap together in my head and everything would make sense and be better. Now I realise that isn't going to happen. As far as my faith goes, I can only get worse. I can't get better. I still believe with most of my heart that there's a creator out there, but I'm also open minded enough to consider the possibility that there might not be. I don't know why I can't seem to get it through my head that there's no improving my faith from this point on. I know that and see that, yet fear of judgment makes me keep looking for a way out. The only way out I see is apostasy. I don't like that option. I will continue to try and learn about beliefs, evolution, etc.

 

I think your resolve to continue to learn is a good path to follow. Learn as much as you can about as much as you can. And don't forget to seek to know yourself better as well.

 

Good luck to you and never hesitate to post any questions or concerns you have about the path your life is taking. The people here are a great source of insight and information.

 

And, I agree that you would serve yourself well to change your user name. We have all felt like confused idiots from time to time. But that just means we are all fallible humans. That might be a good username. Or "fallible dude" Or practically anything but "confused idiot." I don't think you do yourself justice by that name.

 

Maybe "confused idiot" isn't the best username after all. I'm not sure how to change it though.

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I've been thinking about this thing... and the more I analyze it, the more I realise.. It's over. My faith, for the most part, is pretty much dead. My faith has been dying slowly for the past few years. During that time, I would cry out to God, pray often, for various reasons. I always felt rejected, I could never experience that intimacy with God that many others talked about. My questions got bigger, my confusion got worse, depression and anxiety took root, and I got worse over time. All this time, I've been praying and searching, thinking that one day God would just come through and make something snap together in my head and everything would make sense and be better. Now I realise that isn't going to happen. As far as my faith goes, I can only get worse. I can't get better. I still believe with most of my heart that there's a creator out there, but I'm also open minded enough to consider the possibility that there might not be. I don't know why I can't seem to get it through my head that there's no improving my faith from this point on. I know that and see that, yet fear of judgment makes me keep looking for a way out. The only way out I see is apostasy. I don't like that option. I will continue to try and learn about beliefs, evolution, etc.

.... do realise MANY on these forums have experienced EXACTLY what you are currently going through! I can feel your pain as though I am reliving it once more as I read your words! It is up to you to find your own answers though. We can only help so much! You have to explore outside that peanut sized shell of christianity ... the tiny shell that christians want to keep you trapped in ... along with its fear and guilt!

 

One thing I would suggest on top of what others have suggested is to explore the history of christianity. You will learn the evil and vileness that has surrounded its event and cementation into our society over the centuries ... how this has involved the hell doctrine etc..

 

You WILL get there!! This site will surely help!

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Maybe "confused idiot" isn't the best username after all. I'm not sure how to change it though.

 

.... I am totally in agreement on that! You might have to ask help from a moderator or WebDave.

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what's the point in believing anything?

 

 

 

Describes where I'm at perfectly - it's not really such a bad place. *shrugs*

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I've been thinking about this thing... and the more I analyze it, the more I realise.. It's over. My faith, for the most part, is pretty much dead.

 

That's a tough spot to be in, but it's also a good spot to be in. You've come to realize that things are not as you had been taught they are. Now you can start from scratch and evaluate things with an open but critically thinking mind rather than just swallowing what some preacher or church doctrine says. Approach things rationally and I believe that eventually things will get much better for you.

 

I still believe with most of my heart that there's a creator out there, but I'm also open minded enough to consider the possibility that there might not be.

 

And there's nothing wrong with believing in a creator. There are plenty deists out there who are decent, rational people. Just believing in a creator doesn't necessitate following a particular religion. In fact, as I mentioned in a previous post, one of the best refutations of the bible I've seen in a single volume is in the book "God vs the Bible" by a deist named John Armstrong. If you want a freebie, his book can be read on his website here: http://www.godvsthebible.com/book

 

Anyway, enjoy the journey ahead of you....

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Guest confused idiot

I've been thinking about this thing... and the more I analyze it, the more I realise.. It's over. My faith, for the most part, is pretty much dead.

 

That's a tough spot to be in, but it's also a good spot to be in. You've come to realize that things are not as you had been taught they are. Now you can start from scratch and evaluate things with an open but critically thinking mind rather than just swallowing what some preacher or church doctrine says. Approach things rationally and I believe that eventually things will get much better for you.

 

I still believe with most of my heart that there's a creator out there, but I'm also open minded enough to consider the possibility that there might not be.

 

And there's nothing wrong with believing in a creator. There are plenty deists out there who are decent, rational people. Just believing in a creator doesn't necessitate following a particular religion. In fact, as I mentioned in a previous post, one of the best refutations of the bible I've seen in a single volume is in the book "God vs the Bible" by a deist named John Armstrong. If you want a freebie, his book can be read on his website here: http://www.godvsthebible.com/book

 

Anyway, enjoy the journey ahead of you....

 

Sounds like an interesting read, I'll check that out.

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Guest confused idiot

I went ahead and watched the full "Deconversion 2.0" series on YouTube last night, and I'm currently on the third chapter of the book "God vs. the Bible". All this is giving me a lot to think about. I have to admit, though, one thing has been going through my mind. With all of these recent earthquakes we've had, it makes me think about the biblical prophecies that the number of earthquakes will be increased in the last days. This concerns me for more than one reason.

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There aren't 'more' earthquakes, simply more powerful ones in civilized areas. Earthquakes happen all the time, though most are not newsworthy.

 

Prophecies are built around making vague statements and then applying things to them. The prophecies are never specific because then they'd be obviously wrong. When they are vague they manipulate the gullible part of our brains that wants to see patterns in chaos. We now know that earthquakes are caused by physics and plate tectonics, and could be predicted if we had sensors powerful enough to measure the forces acting on the plates. The people who wrote the bible did not know about this stuff, and could only say 'i don't know', or 'god does it', so of course they would include earthquakes in the realm of supernatural wrath. But they are no more mysterious than the sun rising.

 

This movie I recommend as a critical thinking starter. It might help you see that when the horoscope says 'You will meet someone interesting today' that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So long as you interact to a single person, you can justify the prediction as valid. You will fall for anything that 'sound good' until you can learn to junk concepts until you have hard evidence.

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With all of these recent earthquakes we've had, it makes me think about the biblical prophecies that the number of earthquakes will be increased in the last days. This concerns me for more than one reason.

 

... according to the "US Geological Survey" this statement is not correct.

 

http://www.accuweather.com/blogs/news/story/25904/has-the-number-of-earthquakes.asp

 

I have heard this statement from Christians ALL my own life of 50 odd years! I would assume this statement has also been used by Christians for the past hundreds of years as a means of further getting their agenda across. Naturally earthquakes WILL seem to be much more common in the modern world as we have far greater means of detecting them at any strength. Also with the world's modern communication network such happenings travel worldwide at a flash.

 

We have to appreciate at the time the bible was written earthquakes would have been regarded as no more than God or greater powers metering punishment on an evil world! Fortunately we now know why they happen.

 

If you live in one of the fault areas known for earthquakes, with modern technology we now know they happen on a near daily basis. Many of these are not felt but are detected by seismic instruments. Check for instance the activity around New Zealand in the past month or so.

 

http://www.geonet.org.nz/earthquake/quakes/recent_quakes.html

 

I think 'Confused" you have to realise knowledge is christianity's greatest adversary. You have to get outside material that is "chocolate coated" by christians for christian consumption! It is only then you will find how much christianity feeds itself from within!

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