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Goodbye Jesus

I'm Completely Lost...


Guest Perfect Insanity

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Guest Valk0010

I can't accept something that doesn't make sense in my mind. Saying there was no cause or beginning, but that it always was, for no reason at all, that doesn't make any sense.

One thing I've noticed among most atheists is a willingness to try on different paradigms. From flat to round earth is one, from earth as center to earth as orbiting planet is another, from Universe for man to man as side effect of universe is another (which some have problem seeing).

 

Eternal universe to big bang was another, but maybe we should go big bang to eternal universe... Maybe the eternal universe isn't static, but dynamic!

 

[i'm using shorthand here to describe major philosophical points of view, please don't think more words could not be used to describe these things).

 

The point being that you try on different points of view, look at the evidence, compare, but don't reject solely because of "feelings" or teachings of someone - anyone.

 

Multiple dimensions, multiple universes (all existing at the same time or at different times), etc.

 

It's like a smorgasbord of ideas, all delicious but some are definitely better than others. I like to nibble, but I have lots of things on my plate, so I don't worry much about it.

 

If the universe is eternal, there has to be a specific reason for it. There's a reason for everything.

Okay BS meter, prove it. There doesn't have to be a reason for anything, suffering happens without a real reason.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

I can't accept something that doesn't make sense in my mind. Saying there was no cause or beginning, but that it always was, for no reason at all, that doesn't make any sense.

One thing I've noticed among most atheists is a willingness to try on different paradigms. From flat to round earth is one, from earth as center to earth as orbiting planet is another, from Universe for man to man as side effect of universe is another (which some have problem seeing).

 

Eternal universe to big bang was another, but maybe we should go big bang to eternal universe... Maybe the eternal universe isn't static, but dynamic!

 

[i'm using shorthand here to describe major philosophical points of view, please don't think more words could not be used to describe these things).

 

The point being that you try on different points of view, look at the evidence, compare, but don't reject solely because of "feelings" or teachings of someone - anyone.

 

Multiple dimensions, multiple universes (all existing at the same time or at different times), etc.

 

It's like a smorgasbord of ideas, all delicious but some are definitely better than others. I like to nibble, but I have lots of things on my plate, so I don't worry much about it.

 

If the universe is eternal, there has to be a specific reason for it. There's a reason for everything.

Okay BS meter, prove it. There doesn't have to be a reason for anything, suffering happens without a real reason.

 

Who says there's no reason for suffering? Prove that.

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Guest Valk0010

I can't accept something that doesn't make sense in my mind. Saying there was no cause or beginning, but that it always was, for no reason at all, that doesn't make any sense.

One thing I've noticed among most atheists is a willingness to try on different paradigms. From flat to round earth is one, from earth as center to earth as orbiting planet is another, from Universe for man to man as side effect of universe is another (which some have problem seeing).

 

Eternal universe to big bang was another, but maybe we should go big bang to eternal universe... Maybe the eternal universe isn't static, but dynamic!

 

[i'm using shorthand here to describe major philosophical points of view, please don't think more words could not be used to describe these things).

 

The point being that you try on different points of view, look at the evidence, compare, but don't reject solely because of "feelings" or teachings of someone - anyone.

 

Multiple dimensions, multiple universes (all existing at the same time or at different times), etc.

 

It's like a smorgasbord of ideas, all delicious but some are definitely better than others. I like to nibble, but I have lots of things on my plate, so I don't worry much about it.

 

If the universe is eternal, there has to be a specific reason for it. There's a reason for everything.

Okay BS meter, prove it. There doesn't have to be a reason for anything, suffering happens without a real reason.

 

Who says there's no reason for suffering? Prove that.

Touche that is what i get for reacting quickly.

 

But serious question, why does everything have to happen for a reason. Reason implies intent in this case. I don't find a god intending evil worth worshiping. But if there is a reason for everything and there is no god, then how can there truly be a reason for everything.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

I can't accept something that doesn't make sense in my mind. Saying there was no cause or beginning, but that it always was, for no reason at all, that doesn't make any sense.

One thing I've noticed among most atheists is a willingness to try on different paradigms. From flat to round earth is one, from earth as center to earth as orbiting planet is another, from Universe for man to man as side effect of universe is another (which some have problem seeing).

 

Eternal universe to big bang was another, but maybe we should go big bang to eternal universe... Maybe the eternal universe isn't static, but dynamic!

 

[i'm using shorthand here to describe major philosophical points of view, please don't think more words could not be used to describe these things).

 

The point being that you try on different points of view, look at the evidence, compare, but don't reject solely because of "feelings" or teachings of someone - anyone.

 

Multiple dimensions, multiple universes (all existing at the same time or at different times), etc.

 

It's like a smorgasbord of ideas, all delicious but some are definitely better than others. I like to nibble, but I have lots of things on my plate, so I don't worry much about it.

 

If the universe is eternal, there has to be a specific reason for it. There's a reason for everything.

Okay BS meter, prove it. There doesn't have to be a reason for anything, suffering happens without a real reason.

 

Who says there's no reason for suffering? Prove that.

Touche that is what i get for reacting quickly.

 

But serious question, why does everything have to happen for a reason. Reason implies intent in this case. I don't find a god intending evil worth worshiping. But if there is a reason for everything and there is no god, then how can there truly be a reason for everything.

 

Because something seems very fishy about this.... the universe somehow being here for no reason, with no cause, no beginning, no creator.....

 

I don't find a god intending evil worth worshiping either. But if that god is real, that means anybody who takes that stance has to deal with the consequences regardless. So in that case, it's either bow down to something you hate, or rebel and suffer torment throughout eternity. Either choice sucks.

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Guest Valk0010

 

 

Because something seems very fishy about this.... the universe somehow being here for no reason, with no cause, no beginning, no creator.....

 

Why fishy explain.

 

 

I don't find a god intending evil worth worshiping either. But if that god is real, that means anybody who takes that stance has to deal with the consequences regardless. So in that case, it's either bow down to something you hate, or rebel and suffer torment throughout eternity. Either choice sucks.

Well we would be the dead failed revolutionaries I guess.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

 

 

Because something seems very fishy about this.... the universe somehow being here for no reason, with no cause, no beginning, no creator.....

 

Why fishy explain.

 

 

I don't find a god intending evil worth worshiping either. But if that god is real, that means anybody who takes that stance has to deal with the consequences regardless. So in that case, it's either bow down to something you hate, or rebel and suffer torment throughout eternity. Either choice sucks.

Well we would be the dead failed revolutionaries I guess.

 

Well.... just the whole idea of it. It doesn't make sense. How could the universe possibily have always existed if nothing higher is out there beyond it? And whatever is outside the universe, where did it come from? God or not. Everything had a beginning. I have a hard time believing that the universe is here, always was, for no reason at all, and that's pretty much it. I can't make much sense out of that.

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Guest Valk0010

 

 

Because something seems very fishy about this.... the universe somehow being here for no reason, with no cause, no beginning, no creator.....

 

Why fishy explain.

 

 

I don't find a god intending evil worth worshiping either. But if that god is real, that means anybody who takes that stance has to deal with the consequences regardless. So in that case, it's either bow down to something you hate, or rebel and suffer torment throughout eternity. Either choice sucks.

Well we would be the dead failed revolutionaries I guess.

 

Well.... just the whole idea of it. It doesn't make sense. How could the universe possibily have always existed if nothing higher is out there beyond it? And whatever is outside the universe, where did it come from? God or not. Everything had a beginning. I have a hard time believing that the universe is here, always was, for no reason at all, and that's pretty much it. I can't make much sense out of that.

Its a question still wrangled with till and probably will be till the end of time. Origins. I would say, that are origins were random at best. I don't think this world has a purpose, because outside of the unanswered question of origins, I don't see a world of order, i see a world of chaos. This would be a messy and cruel joke if this world of chaos all had a purpose.

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Guest Valk0010

I think people look to god for a purpose for a good reason. God is always a explanation why on things. Why and I here, what am I to do. You already have enumerated times over again how you feel under a theistic god. That is the only type of god where you can really truly get a divine purpose. Your going to have to lose that need somehow, for some divine permission to live.

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Well.... just the whole idea of it. It doesn't make sense. How could the universe possibily have always existed if nothing higher is out there beyond it?

 

If the universe had always existed, it would need no higher power beyond it. On the other hand, if there was a higher power beyond the universe, that would imply that the matter and energy in the universe is finite in existence (which would go against everything we've observed and tested thus far), and it begs the question; what caused that higher power? Taken to its logical conclusion, you'd either need an infinite number of "Causes" each causing each other, or you have to conclude that the higher power exists infinitely. In either case, you are forced to accept the concept of infinite existence. Since there exists no evidence of a higher power whatsoever, the concept that the existence of the universe is infinite and all of its phenomenons (including life) are self caused (which can be demonstrated) is the only one that makes sense. The concept of something higher causing the universe makes as much sense as believing the earth to exist at the center of the universe with the sun going around it.

 

And whatever is outside the universe, where did it come from? God or not. Everything had a beginning. I have a hard time believing that the universe is here, always was, for no reason at all, and that's pretty much it. I can't make much sense out of that.

 

Again, your reasoning continues to be flawed. That which exists infinitely needs no reason to exist, because it just is. Only that which has finite existence requires a cause.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

Its a question still wrangled with till and probably will be till the end of time. Origins. I would say, that are origins were random at best. I don't think this world has a purpose, because outside of the unanswered question of origins, I don't see a world of order, i see a world of chaos. This would be a messy and cruel joke if this world of chaos all had a purpose.

 

I don't think I can buy that.

 

 

I think people look to god for a purpose for a good reason. God is always a explanation why on things. Why and I here, what am I to do. You already have enumerated times over again how you feel under a theistic god. That is the only type of god where you can really truly get a divine purpose. Your going to have to lose that need somehow, for some divine permission to live.

 

I don't need a divine purpose, or the feeling that there's a loving sky daddy watching out for me. That's not it, I promise you. I don't have the need of which you speak to even lose.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

Well.... just the whole idea of it. It doesn't make sense. How could the universe possibily have always existed if nothing higher is out there beyond it?

 

If the universe had always existed, it would need no higher power beyond it. On the other hand, if there was a higher power beyond the universe, that would imply that the matter and energy in the universe is finite in existence (which would go against everything we've observed and tested thus far), and it begs the question; what caused that higher power? Taken to its logical conclusion, you'd either need an infinite number of "Causes" each causing each other, or you have to conclude that the higher power exists infinitely. In either case, you are forced to accept the concept of infinite existence. Since there exists no evidence of a higher power whatsoever, the concept that the existence of the universe is infinite and all of its phenomenons (including life) are self caused (which can be demonstrated) is the only one that makes sense. The concept of something higher causing the universe makes as much sense as believing the earth to exist at the center of the universe with the sun going around it.

 

And whatever is outside the universe, where did it come from? God or not. Everything had a beginning. I have a hard time believing that the universe is here, always was, for no reason at all, and that's pretty much it. I can't make much sense out of that.

 

Again, your reasoning continues to be flawed. That which exists infinitely needs no reason to exist, because it just is. Only that which has finite existence requires a cause.

 

I'll be honest here.... maybe it has something to do with religious indoctrination, but I'm getting a red light when I hear stuff like that. Because it honestly makes no sense (to me), yet it is believed very strongly, somehow.

 

I have a question.... do you expect me to take your word for it? Because that's something I can't do. I don't like to just take people's words for things, expecially not things like that. If I blindly accepted theories and doctrines and beliefs just because someone told me that's how things are, then I wouldn't be here today, I wouldn't be a religious skeptic. I'll admit though, I do need to work on being more skeptical when it comes to religion. But I can't help it, it's drilled into my brain, very deep. It confuses me greatly. Certain things about it make it very hard to see whether it's truth, or whether it's just a made up crock of shit. I don't think I'll ever get an answer to that question for sure one way or another, so I guess I'll just have to take a path and forget the belief aspect. If things are as I see them, then any path that I might take is going to suck. Every path is grim. My outlook is very dark and hopeless. Sometimes I can cheer up a bit and get my mind of of that fact, but I can't totally. This is fucked up any way I look at it. It always comes back down to that.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

That's it. You won't. If at the present state of human knowledge, the capital 'T' Truth could be definitively determined, it would have been posted on YouTube by now, and world peace would have ensued.

 

That almost made me laugh, considering there are so many people on YouTube posting "The Truth", all with the "I'm right, you're wrong" mentality, all contradicting each other, and all that shit. Even the ones (I'm talking about the Christians) who try to agree and befriend each other still disagree and preach a slightly different message. Gee, you'd think there would be unity and agreement in the Holy Spirit.

 

What are you NOT doing while you fret over the unknowable?

 

Are you NOT making friends your own age, NOT getting any exercise, NOT participating in a cause (helping the poor? feeding the hungry? fundraising for a skatepark?), NOT working on a fun or useful skill, NOT helping around the house, NOT getting enough sleep?

 

I'm not doing anything productive, I know that.

 

Given that, although you cannot be certain, the preponderance of evidence is strong for the statement "You've got one life to live on Earth and it will only last so long": What do you want to DO with your life? You need to put down your questioning, accept the anxiety that will rise up (and then fade), and go DO your life.

 

It's hard. Hard to let go. Even though it's impossible to know I'm right, meaning it's impossible to ever find any kind of peace, rest, or security in Christianity, it's still hard to let go. "What if" this, "what if" that.

 

Walk away from the questioning. It's keeping your stuck in your OCD. Walk away.

 

I need to frame this and put it on my wall.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

No matter what's true and what false, I wish I knew how to get rid of this constant feeling. I'm not sure what it is, but it's always clouding up my mind. Hopelessness, self hatred, obsessive attitudes, never feeling satisfied/content, etc. The answer, partly anyway, can only be found through change.... but I for some reason have an inability to change. And for some reason, the only times where I feel hopefull is when I'm at the darkest, most depressing point. I think the reason for that is, when I do occasionally hit rock bottom like that, it's like that somehow gives me the energy and desire to spring out and fucking fight this shit to the death. It's like, if I'm going to change, I have to stay inthat rock bottom hopeless mindset. But I don't stay in it, I just continue the cycle of rock bottom - slowly getting more optimistic - coming back to a sense of reality - getting optimistic and hopeful - falling flat on my face. Then, I hit rock bottom again, starting the cycle over. As weird as it sounds, I almost think I need to break the cycle and stay in that hopeless/rock bottom mindset to get anywhere with this. I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but anyway. I've been here 4 months, and I've been battling it in various stages for a long time before that, and I'm still nowhere. I don't think any change can happen there.

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Guest Valk0010

No matter what's true and what false, I wish I knew how to get rid of this constant feeling. I'm not sure what it is, but it's always clouding up my mind. Hopelessness, self hatred, obsessive attitudes, never feeling satisfied/content, etc. The answer, partly anyway, can only be found through change.... but I for some reason have an inability to change. And for some reason, the only times where I feel hopefull is when I'm at the darkest, most depressing point. I think the reason for that is, when I do occasionally hit rock bottom like that, it's like that somehow gives me the energy and desire to spring out and fucking fight this shit to the death. It's like, if I'm going to change, I have to stay inthat rock bottom hopeless mindset. But I don't stay in it, I just continue the cycle of rock bottom - slowly getting more optimistic - coming back to a sense of reality - getting optimistic and hopeful - falling flat on my face. Then, I hit rock bottom again, starting the cycle over. As weird as it sounds, I almost think I need to break the cycle and stay in that hopeless/rock bottom mindset to get anywhere with this. I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but anyway. I've been here 4 months, and I've been battling it in various stages for a long time before that, and I'm still nowhere. I don't think any change can happen there.

You need mental help, there is something wrong in your head, and I don't know what.

 

I am not trying to be a ass when I say this. But I don't think you can fix yourself, you need medical help. Antidepressants or something.

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I have a question.... do you expect me to take your word for it?

 

That is a brilliant question! The answer is absolutely not! Regardless of who says it.

 

That's where it gets complicated. Where do you start to look for answers and explanations? Any source might potentially be biased. Really however, there are unbiased sources of information, and in most cases you can check things for yourself.

 

I don't think I could give you a source, because the source depends on your needs. If you formulate your questions well, you can start your search. Stay current as much as possible.

 

While your at it, here's a biased source that still presents a logical argument for Nature:

 

 

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Guest Perfect Insanity

You need mental help, there is something wrong in your head, and I don't know what.

 

I am not trying to be a ass when I say this. But I don't think you can fix yourself, you need medical help. Antidepressants or something.

 

You speak the truth. How is that being an ass?

 

 

That is a brilliant question! The answer is absolutely not! Regardless of who says it.

 

That's where it gets complicated. Where do you start to look for answers and explanations? Any source might potentially be biased. Really however, there are unbiased sources of information, and in most cases you can check things for yourself.

 

I don't think I could give you a source, because the source depends on your needs. If you formulate your questions well, you can start your search. Stay current as much as possible.

 

While your at it, here's a biased source that still presents a logical argument for Nature:

 

 

 

That's the tricky part. Almost every source is at least slightly biased, one way or another.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

:Hmm: Um...yes, you are sure. You've said it many times: You're almost constantly full of anxiety, fear and dread.

 

Yeah, there's that, but it feels like there's more to it than just that.

 

And, because of that, instead of doing your life, you keep trying to fix the constant feeling by trying to figure out the Truth. You try to get a little glimmer from the forum responses, a new little intellectual twist, and sometimes it helps, just a little bit, just enough to keep you posting and seeking responses...for 78 pages and counting...but it never helps very much and never for very long.

 

Spot on.

 

And, since, as you've acknowledged, figuring out the definitive Truth is a completely unachievable task, duh, you periodically end up feeling hopeless, and then you get that "rock bottom" feeling. (That joins up with the fact that you're not doing the things you think are fun or interesting and not accomplishing any goals, so you have nothing feeding your self-esteem or stimulating the parts of your brain that handle satisfaction, contentment, pride, excitement, humor, fun, warm affection, motivation, etc. Of course you're depressed.

 

Yeah, I guess so.

 

So, when you hit "rock bottom," and admit to yourself that you cannot settle these questions about the Truth, that your ritualizing is just keeping you in quicksand, and the quest to "figure it out" is utterly hopeless, guess what? For a few minutes, you stop ritualizing. You "give up" trying to fix it. Take your own hint! You "hit rock bottom" when you allow yourself to say, "There's nothing I can do to fix my fear and dread, so I give up and I have no choice but to just be afraid and feel the dread." You accept the obsessive thought ("what if...insert worry du jour...eternal Hellfire, whatever, etc."), feel the anguish, and DON'T TRY TO FIX IT. And, pretty soon, Tah-dah! You said it:

 

As dark as that place is, I like it. It feels good. I find hope in the hopelessness.

 

Except for that last bit (returning to your rituals), that's how Exposure and Response Prevention works. You stop trying to fix the fear. You accept it, even though it feels bad. At first, it gets really bad, and then...it gets better! You keep practicing this, and after a while, it doesn't get as bad and it fades more quickly. And, if you DO NOT go back to ritualizing, you get better and better until your OCD is just a familiar annoyance that you can handle most of the time.

 

When you "hit rock bottom"--on purpose or by accident--and you're accepting how bad you feel, you can try to go ahead and pass the time by starting to do whatever it is you think you would do if you weren't busy having OCD. Don't do it to distract yourself (that turns into a form of trying to fix it, and OCD will notice that right away and take advantage). Feel and accept the fear, and while you're doing that, also start doing your life.

 

I like the way you think.

 

I have a challenge for you: If you didn't have OCD, and it hadn't robbed you of your dreams and your self-confidence, what activities do you think you would be doing or would be interested in doing? Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Go directly to making a list.

Resist the desire to post another fretful "Yes, but I'm so confused, what if yada yada? Maybe this, maybe that..." Just. don't. do. it. (That's the Response Prevention.)

 

Allow yourself to notice obsessive thoughts, and to feel the dread and the terror, but do nothing to make it go away, and ONLY post a list of the things you think you would be doing or trying, or would be interested in doing or trying, if you weren't stuck with OCD. ONLY post the list. Sit with the feelings. Don't fix them. Post the list. ONLY the list*.

 

Don't post about how sad you feel about not having done the things on the list. Don't post about why you are not going to succeed at doing the things on the list. Continue to accept the fear and the dread (because your obsessive thoughts will remain with you, of course, and you are not going to try to fix them). Rate how scared you are, 1 to 10. Stay with it until the feeling goes down by about 50%. Then get ready for bed, and don't do anything to fix the feelings. Look at your list and choose one baby step toward one item--a phone call, an internet search, a minor purchase--something little that is Step One toward living your life. Promise yourself you will do that one baby step tomorrow. Go to bed. Don't ritualize (which for you means, don't engage in trying to figure out the Truth and don't discuss it or post about it or read anything aimed at figuring it out). Just make a promise to yourself and go to bed. If you become anxious, let the anxiety peak, stay with it, don't fix it, don't run away from it, and wait for the anxiety to come down.

 

*Should you accept the challenge, the only other thing you can post is "OMG. I stayed with the fear and it came down from a (number for 1-10) to a (50% lower number from 1-10). How awesome am I?"

 

I accept your challenge.

 

EDIT: My mind is cluttered, give me a little while to put up my list. I'll have it up before the end of the night.

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I have a question.... do you expect me to take your word for it?

 

Absolutely not. I expect you to open your eyes and look at the world and universe around you. Do you see things suddenly spring into and pop out of existence? Perhaps on television, or during a magic act, but a sane person knows these are illusions and tricks which can be demonstrated and repeated. The bodies of people who died are still around, and even when they're incinerated, we merely convert their matter back into heat and light energy, along with water vapour and are left with the stuff that doesn't easily burn.

 

Because that's something I can't do. I don't like to just take people's words for things, expecially not things like that. If I blindly accepted theories and doctrines and beliefs just because someone told me that's how things are, then I wouldn't be here today, I wouldn't be a religious skeptic.

 

You obviously took someone's word for it when you started to believe there must have been a cause for everything, there must be some higher power, and that there must be a reason for the existence of the universe which, according to your statements, is finite in existence. I say this because these things cannot be observed nor demonstrated. On the other hand, based on observations you can clearly make on your own, the infinite existence of matter and energy is evident, leading to the logical conclusion of the true nature of the universe. You reject what can be observed by your own senses, based on blindly embracing a belief which has nothing to back it up.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

My list:

 

I would have a better diet.

 

I would have a better social life.

 

I would be in better health.

 

I would be more adventurous, trying new things all the time.

 

I would learn an instrument, maybe more than one.

 

I would be in a relationship with a woman.

 

I would learn to be less selfish.

 

I wouldn't be obsessive over beliefs or anything else.

 

I would learn to enjoy myself.

 

I would be a more well-rounded person, having skills and knowing how to do things.

 

I would travel.

 

I wouldn't depend on possessions for my overall happiness.

 

I wouldn't feel empty and unfulfilled.

 

I would live my life to the absolute fullest, and not let any thing or any body get in the way of that.

 

I wouldn't live a typical, traditional, or boring life.

 

I wouldn't wear different masks around different people.

 

Certain relationships would be improved.

 

I wouldn't be such a dumbass.

 

I would be more of a skeptic, and less gullible.

 

I wouldn't be so weak minded.

 

I would fear nothing.

 

I wouldn't feel envious, jealous, or like something is wrong with me when I see other people.

 

My failures, insecurites, and hangups would all be resolved.

 

I would be a more creative person.

 

I wouldn't feel the need to get pissed when I see myself talk or act.

 

I would do all kinds of new things every day. Kayaking, white water rafting, playing a sport, hunting, fishing, anything but sitting on my ass thinking about shit I can't understand.

 

 

 

 

 

Is that the kind of list you wanted me to make? It's incomplete, as I think of new additions to it all the time. But anyway, there's some version of a list.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

Disclaimer: Anxiety/fear varies at different times, meaning if I report that it's gone down, it doesn't actually mean there's any improvement.

 

At the moment, I'm not so fearful, but I am depressed. Giving in to the fear doesn't seem to be working, because unless I stay at that point where I want to yell, scream, and do something drastic, my brain is still subconciously trying to find a way out. If I'm "trying" at all, I will fail. I have to stay in that point of giving up... but how?

 

On another note, I'm not so sure this experiment will do the trick. Sure, it may help, but it still won't take away from my lack of meaning. I came to a realisation last night/this morning. There's nothing driving me. Anything I might find to give me that drive won't last forever, meaning when I lose whatever gives me my motivation for living, I lose the motivation, and I lose my reason to go on. If my meaning and purpose comes from a person, what happens when that person dies? I lose it. If it comes from some kind of possession, what about when that possession breaks? If it comes from some kind of activity, what happens when I'm unable to participate in that activity anymore? It all seems worthless, there really is nothing to live for. If the Christian God is real, then that would seem to be the answer to that question. But what about the uncertainty of it being real? What happens when you're plagued with doubt? What about the uncertainty of having faith in something you can't see or know, when you still have that possibility of getting something wrong and ending up damned regardless? Even besides all that, I never found peace in this religion... just a huge feeling of worthlessness, endless guilt without an escape, never being able to measure up, trying to live for something that I don't even care for, feeling more guilt because of that, praying for a change of heart, and it never happening.... Religion is a mindfuck. It will devour a person's mind. I guess it may be true that you make your own meaning, and I'm fine with that. However, it seems like any meaning a person may find, it won't last, and when you lose it, you end up in a worse place than before.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

Go you! GREAT START! See below: I underlined the items where you listed an action or activity. Those are the kind of list items you want to build on.

 

Next steps:

 

1) From this list, weed out all of the statements about what your feelings and thought processes would be. You are human, and you will continue to have all kinds of feelings and thoughts, including fear, insecurity, and all the rest, as long as you live, so envisioning a life in which you don't have distressing emotions is a non-starter. Not an option. (And, no indulging in self-denigrating labels--weed those OUT.)

 

2) Then, identify all of the statements about your values and put them on a separate list. In the process, translate all the values statements that are worded "I would NOT be..." into what you WOULD strive to be. For example, instead of "I would not be selfish," you would say "Thoughtful, considerate of and generous toward others," or whatever it is you really mean. Put this to the side for now, but it is a very important list.

 

3) Then, coming back to your original list, identify the statements that say something about what you would "have" (a better social life, a better relationship with certain people) or "be" (creative, adventurous), and translate them into things you would "do" in order to have or be those things. For example: Instead of "I would have a better diet," "Eat healthier food," or whatever you really mean. Instead of "I would have a better relationship with my mother," you would list actions that you believe would lead to a better relationship, such as "Help Mom clean up after dinner without being asked," or, instead of "I would have a better social life," list actions that, with time, would lead to a better social life such as "Join a hiking club and go on group hikes." If, for instance, you are terribly, painfully shy, you might not be ready to join a club. In that case, write steps like "Read a book about overcoming social anxiety." Instead of "I would be healthier," what, specifically could you do to move in that direction? Instead of "I would be more creative," what would you like to do or try that would involve creativity? Got the idea?

 

4) Increase the specificity of your items, and keep adding as you think of things. Instead of "Travel," "Research/plan a trip to ____," or instead of "Learn an instrument," "Pick an instrument to learn," "Buy a basic instruction book for _____," "Practice 15 minutes per day," or "Visit a music store and talk with the sales staff about instruments I'm considering." Instead of "Eat better," what, more specifically? You don't have to list a huge master plan for nutrition and fitness. It's enough to list a few specific, real world steps that are more or less within reach that will move you in the direction you desire.

 

The list can keep evolving, but you are now starting to have a list that you can go to and determine at least one baby step in the direction of living your life.

 

When your OCD is urging you to ritualize ("figure out the Truth" or seek reassurance), RESIST, allow the feelings, and look at your list. Accept the feelings. Ask yourself: do I want to give in to OCD and give up on doing the things on this list? or, am I willing to accept the (more or less temporary) distress, without fixing it, so that I will be able to pursue the life of my dreams?

 

Want me to post it here?

 

I would fear nothing. :Hmm: Realistic, much?

 

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

 

 

Duh. It's just a single experiment, with the hope of giving you a glimmer of what E/RP is about. You really need a pro to help you implement and stick with a full course of well-designed E/RP. So, how about putting specific action steps on your action list that could lead, sooner or later, to getting the help you need? (And, you know, doing those steps ASAP.)

 

The rest of your post is ritualizing. Therefore, I will resist the URGE to refute it, which, instead of helping you, would play into your OCD, providing the tiny little blip of reassurance that keeps OCD going.

 

When you get expert professional help and your OCD is backed off, and when you are doing your life, your depression will lift, your brain will work differently (better), and your subjective sense of purpose and motivation will improve without having to solve the lofty, unanswerable question of the point of life, etc.

 

So, back to the list...OK?

 

I've tried that route, it's not the answer.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

If you haven't had good E/RP therapy, you haven't tried the route I'm talking about.

 

Or, maybe you mean that you tried to find help and didn't succeed yet? If that's it, detail what you've tried, what happened and what factors limit your access to professional help, and I'll help you brainstorm more steps to take.

 

Or, if you're talking about medication, you're right, by itself, it's not the answer. However, if you haven't yet tried the right dose of the right med for you, you still don't know whether it will help you or not.

 

I've tried 3 different meds, many tests, both related and unrelated, seen diferent specialists, saw a Christian counselor a good while back, then went to see a "real" shrink, who just turned out to be another Christian, pretty much the same as the religious counselor, except he could give presciptions. Waste of time. Even if I did find the perfect shrink, I have a hard time talking about these problems in person, especially to new people. I don't know what it is, but an unseen force holds me back. In other words, I'm unable to get that "connection" going with anybody , which is necessary between a doctor/shrink/counselor/whatever and the patient.

 

Sure! I'm looking forward to it.

 

I'll work on it.

 

Another thing, I won't stop talking negative about myself. Especially not now, after watching myself do something just now. I now know, I am lowlife scum, and I'm not just saying that. I am a terrible friend, and overall human being. Maybe that is negative, but it's necessary that I get that out. Telling myself the truth, no matter how fucked up it might be, is almost like giving myself a pep talk. It's almost like, since I don't have a god to pray to, I need someone to confess my faults to.... Even if it's myself. God damn, I am pathetic! [name removed], you are a low, pathetic, fucked up piece of shit! You are a fucking failure, and it's my personal displeasure that I have to be the same guy I'm talking to! Change, you motherfucking prick! CHANGE!!!!

 

There, I feel better. Maybe I broke the rules of this challenge by saying that, but it all goes hand in hand.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

So, you've talked to a total of 2 mental health professionals, and from that, you've concluded "I'm unable to get that connection going with anybody"? :scratch:

 

No, that's not what I meant. What I mean is, I have trouble talking about it, it doesn't matter who the person is, or how many I've seen.

 

Since when did 2 instances of anything mean the thing can't be done? I didn't marry either of the first two men I dated, or any of the others, until I married my husband. Married 24 years now. What if I had said, "I just can't get that connection going with anybody, I give up, wah!"?

 

Not what I'm saying.

 

Friend, you may have to see several professionals before you find the right one. Whatever, right? It's a pain, but it's nothing compared to the pain of your present life.

 

Or maybe I could get the hell over it and stop crying like a bitch.

 

Instead of the mysterious "unseen force" thing, try to name whatever it is that holds you back--afraid you'll be misunderstood? afraid they'll say something that makes it worse? general social anxiety and tongue-tied-ness? Whatever causes it, you might "have a hard time talking," but that doesn't mean you can't talk, and even if you can't talk, you could write something down (something short & to the point, see below*) and bring it to the first appointment. Problem solved. (And for further explanation, you could print out this thread, or highlights of it, but...don't expect them to read all 78 pages, just sayin'--If they know OCD, they'll get the idea pretty quickly.)

 

I don't know what it is. I'll plan to say something, how to say it, and hold nothing back... then when I get face to face with a person, my brain turns to mush and I feel like I have to hold back on what I'm trying to say. Also, I did write something down for my last visit to the shrink. 3 pages. I was going to introduce myself, read it, then let the guy say what he needs to say. It didn't happen like that... at all.

 

If you found, not the "perfect" doctor and the "perfect" therapist, but a well-qualified and objective doctor and/or a similarly qualified therapist, you would only need to say (or write) something like, "I think I have OCD. I can't stop obsessing about religious questions, I'm terrified, I feel awful and I compulsively try to figure out the answers to religious and philosophical questions even though I know it's impossible. I have some other obsessions and rituals, too. I spend almost all of my time on this. I have no life, no motivation, and I pretty much hate myself."* (Please forgive me if my nutshell description is off--it's just an example, okay?)

 

Your example is right.

 

The good-enough therapist will ask the necessary questions from there and help to put you at ease, and teach and support you in E/RP. Don't expect to be better BEFORE doing a LOT of E/RP--don't let yourself indulge in that "I went six times and it's not working" stuff. It could take many weeks, many months, or even longer to get where you want to be, and much depends on whether you stall and resist or jump in and push yourself. But none of that is relevant until you find the good-enough OCD therapist. That's the first step. Worry about the rest when you get to it.

 

Your therapist MUST be a good listener, and MUST know about OCD and E/RP, and, it doesn't matter what his or her religion is, as long as the therapist keeps his or her religion to him or herself, completely, and doesn't allow it to influence your treatment. Somebody who advertises himself as a "Christian Counselor" would not do, but a competent, qualified professional therapist who knows OCD and E/RP can ascribe to any goofy religion or be a card-carrying atheist and it shouldn't matter one bit. If she understands your OCD, she won't engage with you on religious and philosophical questions. If she engages with your ritualizing, she will be making you worse, not better, and you need a different therapist. (Okay, she might slip up now and then, because the urge to reassure is pretty strong among mental health professionals, but then you can say, "Hah! Made you reassure me!")

 

By the same token, the good-enough psychiatrist will ask what medicines you've already tried, what side effects, what doses, and for how long, and will educate you about your pharmaceutical options and recommend something to try. Meds only help when they're 1) the right one for you and 2) at the right dose for you and for fighting OCD. You haven't gone as far as you can go on this, and you don't have to pursue medication, but...dang, my friend, you could use all the help you can get, no? A psychiatrist (an MD) who is up-to-date and knowledgeable about the pharmaceutical treatment of OCD could help you systematically make adequate medication trials, increasing at a safe pace to recommended dosages, and, if there's no significant improvement, moving on to the next one. It doesn't matter if he or she happens to be Christian, as long as he isn't a "Christian Psychiatrist." And he or she should also know better than to reassure you or debate with you on the topics of your obsessions.

 

Like I said, the connection between the shrink and his patient is necessary to get anywhere. I don't do the whole connection thing so well. As a matter of fact, there are some things I wouldn't specifically reveal to a psychiatrist. There are certain things I haven't specifically revealed here. I think, no matter how good of a shrink I can find, the majority of the work is going to have to be something I do on my own. But I'm doing a very bad job of that so far.

 

So, here it is, the challenge continues, should you choose to accept it:

What steps have you already taken, and what steps will you now take, to identify an OCD-informed professional within 100 miles? We'll deal with all the other "but I can't get there, but I can't pay for it, but yada, yada" later. How about starting by identifying one professional within a 2 hour drive who claims to know OCD and E/RP?

 

Yeah, I'd probably end up with another Christian counselor. Even though the guy was in no way advertised as being that. I don't know if there are any "real" ones that close. I'm beginning not to care either. This part of the challenge, I don't know if I can accept. Like I said, most of the work will have to come from inside of me regardless. I just have to find the strength.

 

Wait, wait!...now I see it: that's another type of compulsion you do, huh? Confessing your faults and badgering yourself in a post makes you feel better. That's the tip-off. It's an OCD ritual, and it also begs for responses from others who will (usually) argue with you about it, so it also acts as another form of compulsive reassurance seeking. Yep, I've convinced myself--do you see it? So, I get it that you can't stop just yet--you really can't--so I will just ignore further instances of it, or at most, say "I see you're doing a compulsion," so as not to feed the OCD.

 

I really, really hope you will get the help you need. In the meantime...

 

I'm looking forward to the revised Action List. GOOD NIGHT!

 

Uh.... ok.

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Guest Perfect Insanity

Is posting this list supposed to make me sound happy, sane, positive, optimistic? Because that's not the truth.

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Is posting this list supposed to make me sound happy, sane, positive, optimistic? Because that's not the truth.

I know this question isn't addressed to me, but FWIW, your list is exactly the kind I would have written. Yes, it is.

 

If I were to guess its purpose, I'd say it was intended to give you some perspective, and perhaps a starting point. Pick one and do it. Cross it off. Move on to the next one.

 

I would start with something simple.

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