I'm Completely Lost...

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Is posting this list supposed to make me sound happy, sane, positive, optimistic? Because that's not the truth.

I know this question isn't addressed to me, but FWIW, your list is exactly the kind I would have written. Yes, it is.

 

If I were to guess its purpose, I'd say it was intended to give you some perspective, and perhaps a starting point. Pick one and do it. Cross it off. Move on to the next one.

 

I would start with something simple.

 

I probably shouldn't make a list that makes me come off as something I'm not. I wasn't asking if the list would lead to happiness, but if posting it would make me sound overly optimistic right now, which would be a lie.

[Shyone]

Is posting this list supposed to make me sound happy, sane, positive, optimistic? Because that's not the truth.

I know this question isn't addressed to me, but FWIW, your list is exactly the kind I would have written. Yes, it is.

 

If I were to guess its purpose, I'd say it was intended to give you some perspective, and perhaps a starting point. Pick one and do it. Cross it off. Move on to the next one.

 

I would start with something simple.

 

I probably shouldn't make a list that makes me come off as something I'm not. I wasn't asking if the list would lead to happiness, but if posting it would make me sound overly optimistic right now, which would be a lie.

A list is a list. Mine would certainly look different.

 

I would probably group things together: short term, medium term, long term.

 

Short term:

What I will probably do today and perhaps for the rest of the week.

Medium term:

Stuff I know is coming up in a month or two

Long term:

Plans for a year or more.

 

Right now I have a little project. I work on it as much as I can every day, but also work, read this group, look at other web sites, watch TV, talk with my wife, etc. That's enough to keep me occupied, but then one medium term project is coming up at the end of August, and I'll be starting some preparations for that this weekend. Long term stuff is a subject for discussion now with friends and family with me asking for advice.

 

I'm a little OC. I like things organized, and I check to see that everything I can think of is on schedule, and I see the progress and it makes me happy.

 

Happiness comes in small packages, not sweeping generalities. My small accomplishments give me the courage to say to myself, "I'm not that lazy. I get stuff done!" And it gives me the strength to work on things that I can only dream of or hope for. If I complete this post, that will be one more thing I have accomplished.

 

And....

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Is posting this list supposed to make me sound happy, sane, positive, optimistic? Because that's not the truth.

I know this question isn't addressed to me, but FWIW, your list is exactly the kind I would have written. Yes, it is.

 

If I were to guess its purpose, I'd say it was intended to give you some perspective, and perhaps a starting point. Pick one and do it. Cross it off. Move on to the next one.

 

I would start with something simple.

 

I probably shouldn't make a list that makes me come off as something I'm not. I wasn't asking if the list would lead to happiness, but if posting it would make me sound overly optimistic right now, which would be a lie.

A list is a list. Mine would certainly look different.

 

I would probably group things together: short term, medium term, long term.

 

Short term:

What I will probably do today and perhaps for the rest of the week.

Medium term:

Stuff I know is coming up in a month or two

Long term:

Plans for a year or more.

 

Right now I have a little project. I work on it as much as I can every day, but also work, read this group, look at other web sites, watch TV, talk with my wife, etc. That's enough to keep me occupied, but then one medium term project is coming up at the end of August, and I'll be starting some preparations for that this weekend. Long term stuff is a subject for discussion now with friends and family with me asking for advice.

 

I'm a little OC. I like things organized, and I check to see that everything I can think of is on schedule, and I see the progress and it makes me happy.

 

Happiness comes in small packages, not sweeping generalities. My small accomplishments give me the courage to say to myself, "I'm not that lazy. I get stuff done!" And it gives me the strength to work on things that I can only dream of or hope for. If I complete this post, that will be one more thing I have accomplished.

 

And....

 

That's a bit different though, isn't it?

 

On a different note, I somewhat discovered something earlier. The basis of me fear/anxiety is not because of hell (although I'm sure that would change if I was on my deathbed). I was thinking earlier, about going back to Christianity, different scenarios, and I was thinking that it didn't really matter if I got something wrong doctrine wise, or screwed up somehow and ended up going to hell anyway. That probably makes more sense in my head than it does typed out, but I figured out, what I long for is not an escape from hell necessarily, but the security that would come from knowing that I'm not running from the almighty source of life. Does that make any sense? What stirs my anxiety now is me feeling like I'm running and trying to hide from something I can't escape.

[Shyone]

On a different note, I somewhat discovered something earlier. The basis of me fear/anxiety is not because of hell (although I'm sure that would change if I was on my deathbed). I was thinking earlier, about going back to Christianity, different scenarios, and I was thinking that it didn't really matter if I got something wrong doctrine wise, or screwed up somehow and ended up going to hell anyway. That probably makes more sense in my head than it does typed out, but I figured out, what I long for is not an escape from hell necessarily, but the security that would come from knowing that I'm not running from the almighty source of life. Does that make any sense? What stirs my anxiety now is me feeling like I'm running and trying to hide from something I can't escape.

I suppose it makes sense. But it's still related to some kind of irrational fear.

 

What's wrong with "running from the almighty source of life?" Why would it mind?

 

What some people have done is to say, there's no way to win, so you might as well enjoy life. Some even bring this on themselves to eliminate the uncertainty.

 

"Fuck the Holy Spirit the the Penis of Jesus!" Say that three times, and Then you won't have anything to worry about because you'll either go to hell or, if hell doesn't exist, you'll enjoy your life.

 

That may not be for you, but it's one way of eliminating uncertainty. And there's no point in hiding from it. Problem solved.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I suppose it makes sense. But it's still related to some kind of irrational fear.

 

What's wrong with "running from the almighty source of life?" Why would it mind?

 

Because if someone was doing that on purpose, it would be stupid.

 

What some people have done is to say, there's no way to win, so you might as well enjoy life. Some even bring this on themselves to eliminate the uncertainty.

 

"Fuck the Holy Spirit the the Penis of Jesus!" Say that three times, and Then you won't have anything to worry about because you'll either go to hell or, if hell doesn't exist, you'll enjoy your life.

 

I've said the first half of that before. My motives in saying it were exactly as you stated, so I wouldn't have to worry about it anymore. Biblically, I blasphemed the Holy Spirit. I've prayed more than once, recently, even today, that if it's possible for me to come back, that God would reveal that to me in a crystal clear way that could not be mistaken for anything else. I've been praying that for a while, and it hasn't been answered. Either I'm damned, or this God is not real. Or this is just some sick joke.

 

That may not be for you, but it's one way of eliminating uncertainty. And there's no point in hiding from it. Problem solved.

 

Problem solved? I don't think so.

[Kris]

You say you have been praying for a while and your prayer has not been answered yet-- how long will it take for you to be convinced that you will never get the "crystal-clear" answer that you are looking for? I mean, you probably asked for an immediate response, so you could quit going through the pain that you have been dealing with for quite sometime (if 79 pages are any evidence). So, either god is the cruelest MF out there for making you suffer, or there is nothing out there to answer your plea for help. You decide!

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

You say you have been praying for a while and your prayer has not been answered yet-- how long will it take for you to be convinced that you will never get the "crystal-clear" answer that you are looking for?

 

I'm already convinced. I have been for a long time.

 

I mean, you probably asked for an immediate response, so you could quit going through the pain that you have been dealing with for quite sometime (if 79 pages are any evidence). So, either god is the cruelest MF out there for making you suffer, or there is nothing out there to answer your plea for help. You decide!

 

Or both.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

No, the list won't make you sound optimistic, happy or sane. It is only a list of actions you think you might like or want to do, if only you weren't held back by OCD and depression. Feel free to put a disclaimer on the list, if you are having a scruple about accidentally giving an incorrect impression.

 

Ok. I'll post it when I get done with it. It might be late tomorrow, though.

 

There's nothing that will surprise an experienced OCD professional, just so you know. And I'm not even saying they will have heard your particular secret obsessions before, but they will have heard of or read about plenty that are as ___(name your adjective: crazy? perverted? vile? disgusting? whatever) as yours. OCD grabs onto whatever horrifies or disgusts you the most, and makes you obsess about whether it's true. The variety of OCD obsessions is mind-boggling.

 

Also, your difficulty relating to people doesn't mean you can't have a successful therapist/client relationship. OCD treatment doesn't require the traditional warm and fuzzy. You can have a social anxiety disorder; you can even have Aspergers. Doesn't matter. OCD treatment doesn't even absolutely require that you reveal your specific obsessions, although it would be harder for the counselor to help you design your E/RP sessions.

 

I know nothing will take them by surprise, it's not that. It's just.... my mind switches into some stupid mode where I have to hold back saying anything that might offend someone. It's annoying. I can be in the most pissed off mood and be ready to say anything to a person's face..... but when I actually get face to face with them.... it won't come out.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Maybe I'm not getting what you're trying to say, but...I don't think it would be that important to feel free to say things that might offend your therapist. If you're being treated for OCD, you wouldn't really need to come in and sound off about how pissed you are about stuff. It's not general all-purpose therapy where you talk about whatever is bothering you and bask in the glow of the therapist's empathy and insights. In OCD treatment, you would be designing and implementing E/RP, troubleshooting what didn't go as planned, and getting feedback aimed at helping you cope and stay motivated. It's more...technical.

 

But I think I could much better get the condition of my mind across if I could bring that anger with me into the doctor's office. I end up not saying the things I need to say.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I've got a story I've been meaning to tell for a while now. Any insight would be appreciated.

 

This is about someone in my family who died before I was born. He was sick with cancer, and before dying, he had been in the hospital, being unable to move, talk, or open his eyes. I don't remember how long he was like that, but I'm thinking it might have been for weeks. Right before he died, he opened his eyes, got a huge expression on his face, and (if I remember the story correctly) pointed up, as if he saw something. Now, keep in mind, he had been unable to even move for a long time. Yet this happens right before he dies. Which makes it different from your typical NDE. Can that even be explained by science? How could this experience involve anything other than the spiritual?

[Shyone]

I've got a story I've been meaning to tell for a while now. Any insight would be appreciated.

 

This is about someone in my family who died before I was born. He was sick with cancer, and before dying, he had been in the hospital, being unable to move, talk, or open his eyes. I don't remember how long he was like that, but I'm thinking it might have been for weeks. Right before he died, he opened his eyes, got a huge expression on his face, and (if I remember the story correctly) pointed up, as if he saw something. Now, keep in mind, he had been unable to even move for a long time. Yet this happens right before he dies. Which makes it different from your typical NDE. Can that even be explained by science? How could this experience involve anything other than the spiritual?

The human mind is hugely influenced by many environmental things: drugs, chemicals (electrolytes), dehydration and physical conditions that affect the brain (stroke, tumors or inflammation). Dying is one really, really major disturbance of homeostasis.

 

I can only speculate, or perhaps relate similar stories, but as the body approaches expiration, everything is going haywire and it is rare to remain lucid.

 

I had an uncle with multiple myeloma. I stayed with him as he died, and he was seeing all kinds of things - spiders on the walls, people that weren't there and stuff like that (and the people were alive). That night, his breathing changed, and he passed away.

 

I also have lots of patients that require narcotic medications for pain relief, and quite a few of them have hallucinations. I have had patients in the intensive care unit develop "ICU psychosis" with paranoid delusions.

 

Mess with the body, fuck up the mind. And it becomes something like "GIGO".

[dB-Paradox]

I've got a story I've been meaning to tell for a while now. Any insight would be appreciated.

 

This is about someone in my family who died before I was born. He was sick with cancer, and before dying, he had been in the hospital, being unable to move, talk, or open his eyes. I don't remember how long he was like that, but I'm thinking it might have been for weeks. Right before he died, he opened his eyes, got a huge expression on his face, and (if I remember the story correctly) pointed up, as if he saw something. Now, keep in mind, he had been unable to even move for a long time. Yet this happens right before he dies. Which makes it different from your typical NDE. Can that even be explained by science? How could this experience involve anything other than the spiritual?

I'd also like to add something here briefly. Two things actually. First, as I've said before to others, and maybe to you...it wasn't your experience. I hear stories all the time, lately from my father-in-law. My argument is, if this is so damn important, why don't I experience any of this...why someone else? And sometimes the stories are not relayed to me until years after the experience. That doesn't sound very urgent to me. You?

 

Secondly, people of all faith groups will report such NDEs or similar experiences, not just Christians. That puts Christianity in the same basket as Hinduism or Islam, or even some ancient Pagan religion. My point is, it's not important to your "eternal salvation". You're worried about things that aren't happening to you and that allegedly happen to all faith groups all across the globe. (I say allegedly because I doubt some of the stories, such as men being called to faith heal on the street and stuff like that.)

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

The human mind is hugely influenced by many environmental things: drugs, chemicals (electrolytes), dehydration and physical conditions that affect the brain (stroke, tumors or inflammation). Dying is one really, really major disturbance of homeostasis.

 

I can only speculate, or perhaps relate similar stories, but as the body approaches expiration, everything is going haywire and it is rare to remain lucid.

 

I had an uncle with multiple myeloma. I stayed with him as he died, and he was seeing all kinds of things - spiders on the walls, people that weren't there and stuff like that (and the people were alive). That night, his breathing changed, and he passed away.

 

I also have lots of patients that require narcotic medications for pain relief, and quite a few of them have hallucinations. I have had patients in the intensive care unit develop "ICU psychosis" with paranoid delusions.

 

Mess with the body, fuck up the mind. And it becomes something like "GIGO".

 

The mind is a powerful thing, I know. That doesn't explain the important little detail that he sprang to life right before dying, when he had previously been unable to move, talk, or open his eyes.

 

I'd also like to add something here briefly. Two things actually. First, as I've said before to others, and maybe to you...it wasn't your experience.

 

So? It still happened.

 

I hear stories all the time, lately from my father-in-law. My argument is, if this is so damn important, why don't I experience any of this...why someone else?

 

....Because you haven't died yet.

 

And sometimes the stories are not relayed to me until years after the experience. That doesn't sound very urgent to me. You?

 

In that case, no.

 

Secondly, people of all faith groups will report such NDEs or similar experiences, not just Christians. That puts Christianity in the same basket as Hinduism or Islam, or even some ancient Pagan religion. My point is, it's not important to your "eternal salvation". You're worried about things that aren't happening to you and that allegedly happen to all faith groups all across the globe. (I say allegedly because I doubt some of the stories, such as men being called to faith heal on the street and stuff like that.)

 

I know. The mind plays a part in NDE's, I've read about that before. As I said in my post, I didn't bring that up simply because it was a NDE. The reason I brought it up was because he SPRUNG TO LIFE, when he had been unable to move, talk, open his eyes, yada yada.... Have any of these non-Christian NDE's involved anything like that?

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

By the way, this isn't some hearsay story that may or may not have happened about a distant family member. It happened. This guy would have been my uncle. My mom told me about it a long time ago.

[dB-Paradox]

I'd also like to add something here briefly. Two things actually. First, as I've said before to others, and maybe to you...it wasn't your experience.

 

So? It still happened.

Maybe it did. Neither you or I can verify that. It was a story you heard. You didn't witness it. I'm not saying you were lied to, but what I am saying is why make a big deal over something you yourself didn't even witness? Even if you had witnessed it, it could be explained in so many ways. But again, you're taking an experience someone else had and making it relevant in your own life.

I hear stories all the time, lately from my father-in-law. My argument is, if this is so damn important, why don't I experience any of this...why someone else?

 

....Because you haven't died yet.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. What I meant was, why haven't I experienced any supernatural things, including NDEs? Why is it that I only hear about a guy who knows of a preacher who healed a sick girl through the miracle of prayer? Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen (although I'm highly skeptical), but I am saying it's obviously not relevant in my life.

 

By the way, I had a grandfather who died and was revived after a few minutes. After doctors brought him back, he was so upset that he was alive again, because he said that the place he was just in was pure peace. He apparently was so angry with the doctors for reviving him he wanted to punch them. Should that be a message for me? Should I be convinced of an afterlife because of an experience he had?

 

Secondly, people of all faith groups will report such NDEs or similar experiences, not just Christians. That puts Christianity in the same basket as Hinduism or Islam, or even some ancient Pagan religion. My point is, it's not important to your "eternal salvation". You're worried about things that aren't happening to you and that allegedly happen to all faith groups all across the globe. (I say allegedly because I doubt some of the stories, such as men being called to faith heal on the street and stuff like that.)

 

I know. The mind plays a part in NDE's, I've read about that before. As I said in my post, I didn't bring that up simply because it was a NDE. The reason I brought it up was because he SPRUNG TO LIFE, when he had been unable to move, talk, open his eyes, yada yada.... Have any of these non-Christian NDE's involved anything like that?

I don't see why they wouldn't. My next mission is to find non-Christian stories of people who have had last second supernatural experiences before death. But the question is, what will it prove if there are such stories?

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

 

Maybe it did. Neither you or I can verify that. It was a story you heard. You didn't witness it.

 

The people in my family that were present can.

 

I'm not saying you were lied to, but what I am saying is why make a big deal over something you yourself didn't even witness? Even if you had witnessed it, it could be explained in so many ways. But again, you're taking an experience someone else had and making it relevant in your own life.

 

I'm not saying that alone proves [insert Christian sect here] is right and that the Bible is the innerant word of God and that guy #1 is right and guy #2 is wrong, or vice versa, but I am saying, if this story is true (my family has no reason to lie to me) and it can't be explained naturally, it does prove something.

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear. What I meant was, why haven't I experienced any supernatural things, including NDEs? Why is it that I only hear about a guy who knows of a preacher who healed a sick girl through the miracle of prayer? Again, I'm not saying it didn't happen (although I'm highly skeptical), but I am saying it's obviously not relevant in my life.

 

A person can say that it's not relevant in their life, but if any of these experiences happened as they were said to, and they can't be explained by natural means, then that would mean this person would be proven wrong in their lack of beliefs, whether they chose to accept it or not.

 

By the way, I had a grandfather who died and was revived after a few minutes. After doctors brought him back, he was so upset that he was alive again, because he said that the place he was just in was pure peace. He apparently was so angry with the doctors for reviving him he wanted to punch them. Should that be a message for me? Should I be convinced of an afterlife because of an experience he had?

 

I'm curious, was your grandfather a Christian?

 

I don't see why they wouldn't. My next mission is to find non-Christian stories of people who have had last second supernatural experiences before death. But the question is, what will it prove if there are such stories?

 

It would most likely prove that there is nothing more to it than the mind.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

This list thing isn't working out.

 

Fuck optimism.

[dB-Paradox]

A person can say that it's not relevant in their life, but if any of these experiences happened as they were said to, and they can't be explained by natural means, then that would mean this person would be proven wrong in their lack of beliefs, whether they chose to accept it or not.

 

Not true. It just means that we don't understand it yet, just as early man understood thunderstorms to be gods unleashing their wrath. We know better now.

 

And my grandfather was most likely not a Christian. If he was, god sure bends the rules! LOL!

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Not true. It just means that we don't understand it yet, just as early man understood thunderstorms to be gods unleashing their wrath. We know better now.

 

That's a bit different, don't you think?

 

And my grandfather was most likely not a Christian. If he was, god sure bends the rules! LOL!

 

That's interesting.

[Guest Valk0010]

I always say this, to people trying to prove god through supposed experience with god. And that is, other people have other experiences that are weird in regards to other religions. To me, if your going to argue that way, you have to grant other religions and peoples experiences that are used to say there is no god.

 

With a modification, the idea applies to things like your talking about PI. Are your going to grant every single cross cultural unexplainable miracle, vision weird happening. Because you got no way I can see of proving one persons experience over the power of another groups personal experience.

 

Just food for thought.

[PaulQ]

I've got a story I've been meaning to tell for a while now. Any insight would be appreciated.

 

This is about someone in my family who died before I was born. He was sick with cancer, and before dying, he had been in the hospital, being unable to move, talk, or open his eyes. I don't remember how long he was like that, but I'm thinking it might have been for weeks. Right before he died, he opened his eyes, got a huge expression on his face, and (if I remember the story correctly) pointed up, as if he saw something. Now, keep in mind, he had been unable to even move for a long time. Yet this happens right before he dies. Which makes it different from your typical NDE. Can that even be explained by science? How could this experience involve anything other than the spiritual?

 

Good story. I'm sure that, after a few generations, it might even mutate into one where he sprouted wings and flew off into the heavens.

 

That's the funny thing about the very imperfect human mind. Magicians, and in particular, mentalists, rely on the defect of human memory all the time when performing their tricks. "How did he know what number I was thinking of?" Of course, the people who have been fooled ALWAYS mis-remember the trick when retelling it.

 

"If I remember the story correctly."

[dB-Paradox]

You are right, Paul. I myself am an amateur magician. I don't know how many times I do a trick and some time later, am asked to do that trick again, but they never describe accurately what I did the first time. If I make one sponge ball turn into two in the spectators hands, I'm asked to do the trick where the sponge ball changes colors and grows, for example.

[DesertBob]

What's wrong with "running from the almighty source of life?" Why would it mind?

Exactly. I've always said, "God has broad shoulders". Any god worthy of worship, were he to exist, would not be someone for us to project our human insecurities upon. Surely we've moved beyond the Greek pantheon of old, which was nothing more than a bunch of slightly glorified humans acting in a badly written soap opera.

 

An omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god would be completely self-contained and quite impervious to our anger and quite unthreatened by our doubts. Even the Bible says, "Come, let us reason together, says the Lord".

 

Perfect Insanity appears to have been raised with an angry, insecure, pouty sort of God -- in short, a man-made one, despite strident attempts to superimpose this man-made God upon the Biblical one. Maybe if he's concerned about missing a possible Truth that includes God, he should not waste his time fearing the vengeful retribution of this child-god and rest in the fact that a truly loving, caring, compassionate god would patiently wait for him to come around. P.I. also might remember the parable of the workers -- the one where the guys who were hired at the end of the day were paid the same as the ones who had toiled in the fields ever since sunrise. And the owner of the vineyard would tolerate no whining from the ones who worked, either.

 

As for Hell, there are many Christian traditions that omit it altogether. Given how little the Bible actually says about Hell, it looks suspiciously like a bolted-on concept added by later generations of manipulators than something that actually belongs there. If "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to a knowledge of the truth", then hell shouldn't be the focus of our attention anyway.

 

Mind you, I don't believe in the Biblical God either ... but the God that P.I. worries about is not the Biblical one.

[Shyone]

 

The mind is a powerful thing, I know. That doesn't explain the important little detail that he sprang to life right before dying, when he had previously been unable to move, talk, or open his eyes.

 

By the way, this isn't some hearsay story that may or may not have happened about a distant family member. It happened. This guy would have been my uncle. My mom told me about it a long time ago.

Actually, the phenomenon of "waking up" right before death isn't that uncommon. When the body is truly approaching death, every fiber of your being screams, epinephrine (adrenaline) is released, crisis mode takes over and instincts to avoid death - fight or flight - kick in.

 

The effect of this is to animate the body and the mind. The mind may still be totally screwed up (drugs, hypoxia, etc.), but the centers that respond to the stimuli and hormones produce fear and panic - like the last kicks of a drowning man.

 

I'm in medicine, and I see this often enough. I can tell you that it doesn't happen to "brain dead" people, but it does happen with people in comas whether due to illness or drugs.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I always say this, to people trying to prove god through supposed experience with god. And that is, other people have other experiences that are weird in regards to other religions. To me, if your going to argue that way, you have to grant other religions and peoples experiences that are used to say there is no god.

 

I do strongly consider the testimonies here and think about them. I'm not exposed to much of that when it comes to other religions, though. I haven't seen many testimonies of those kinds of experiences in other religions.

 

With a modification, the idea applies to things like your talking about PI. Are your going to grant every single cross cultural unexplainable miracle, vision weird happening. Because you got no way I can see of proving one persons experience over the power of another groups personal experience.

 

Just food for thought.

 

No, I don't. But that's the thing, it's usually the Christian experiences that are hard to shrug away, because I've never heard any from other religions that are as.... something as the Christian ones are. Even though many Christian experiences and testimonies contradict each other.

 

Good story. I'm sure that, after a few generations, it might even mutate into one where he sprouted wings and flew off into the heavens.

 

Yeah.... I don't think so.

 

That's the funny thing about the very imperfect human mind. Magicians, and in particular, mentalists, rely on the defect of human memory all the time when performing their tricks. "How did he know what number I was thinking of?" Of course, the people who have been fooled ALWAYS mis-remember the trick when retelling it.

 

No doubt. But that's different.

 

"If I remember the story correctly."

 

The only reason I said that was because it's been a while since I was told the story. I remember it, but the only part I was unsure about was whether or not he pointed up. I'm pretty sure he did, but I wasn't 100% positive, so that's why I said, if I remember correctly.