I'm Completely Lost...

[oddbird1963]

I.... I don't even know what to say or think.

 

There's no hurry to think or say anything. Just give yourself time to let it percolate, sink in. Look at it from different angels. But try to relax, slow down and give yourself a chance.

 

You'll be all right.

[dB-Paradox]

I.... I don't even know what to say or think.

Hey confused. I don't venture into this part of the forums too often, so I completely missed everything after your intro, and jumped right to the last page. As far as your intro....Man, can I understand! I think there are many who can, but when I say I can understand, I mean, I really understand. I'm a very emotionally driven person. I, like yourself, came to accept Christ in my life at the age of about 7 or 8. It wasn't a defining moment for me, as I was mostly raised in a Christian home. Just one night, I was told that I didn't have to accept Jesus into my hear over and over again, so I finally made the last invite at around the age of 8.

 

By the time I was in my pre-teens, I started taking a deeper look at my faith and really committed my life to God. I was 12 at the time. I remained passionate about God for a couple more decades, going through all kinds of normal ups and downs. But in my 30s, after my first daughter was born, I started feeling more and more distant from Christianity and the god I had known to be my rock. Finally, after a dud holy spirit experience at the age of 35, I started doing some very serious and objective research and tried to find the truth and God. Only a few months passed before I started losing my faith rapidly, and by this time last year, I was no longer a Christian. It took a few more months for me to realize I was an atheist at that point, and thus began a long road to recovery. It's been difficult.

 

Even to this day, I still keep an open mind to Christianity. I've always been the kind of person who wanted to be wise about my decisions, and not hasty. I'm sure I'll keep the Christianity door open a crack until the day I die. That's just my personality type. But no matter how hard I begged Jesus to confirm in my that I should return, or no matter how hard I searched for God, I never got answers. There was a time or two that I might have been able to point to a particular "coincidence" that "might" have been an "answer" to a prayer I prayed. But it's so obscure, it just wasn't compelling or convincing. Maybe I was choosing to turn a blind eye? I don't know. This is where I try to be wise, and try to keep an open mind. But I don't want to jump back on the Christian wagon at the first chance I think has presented itself as answered prayer. I analyze it. I can't say what you should do, but all I'm saying is I understand where you're coming from.

 

You mentioned how you are not a smart person, but a deep thinker. I have always thought the same of myself, in a way. I don't think I'm gifted in intelligence, but I like to really think deep on things. Maybe I over analyze? I don't know. But the other thing I feel is that I am a small person. That is, I will never make an impact. I'm not influential. Christian or not, this will never change. So, maybe we are quite a bit alike. Maybe not. But I just felt compelled to respond and say these things. Good luck finding truth, whatever truth is!

[Shyone]

I.... I don't even know what to say or think.

 

There's no hurry to think or say anything. Just give yourself time to let it percolate, sink in. Look at it from different angels. But try to relax, slow down and give yourself a chance.

 

You'll be all right.

Look at if from different angles too.

[Antlerman]

And in a sense it could be taken one step further. Intent is just the flow of energy and processes. Intent is the potential force in the things that are. Not "intent" as in "thought out and planned for it to be so," but rather the force is there and it pushes things to become. Power, force, energy, is in other words the same as Intent. Am I way too out there now? (And repetitive too)

As AM would say, intent results from a higher order of organization in which the outcome could be otherwise instead of inevitable or unplanned.

 

Intent is tied to purpose which then depends on a goal. It is, for example, not the intent of a species to evolve. Rather, they have the intention of surviving and the survival is facilitated by favorable genetics.

 

Am I being obtuse?

I would reduce it down further to say that the intent is to be, to become. If that is the goal, then everything has that intent. I don't see the goal of what is as being 'to not be'. If it were, we would not be. I can see where someone doesn't like the word intent because we associate that in us with willful cognizant choices, but they are actually not any different than what happens in the process of evolution, only it is occurring with the use of mind (the noosphere, rather than the biosphere), we have much more control of it by virtue of choice. Our level of intent is much greater, and much, much more autonomous. But it is a continuation of what preceded it in nature, what it is built upon before us and our minds, going all the way down to basic matter itself (the physiosphere).

 

If we are hung up on the language that intent means human-style intent with our active minds, then you could say all of it, human intent and the process of evolution itself in matter, body, and mind, is all a form of being engaged in the goal and act of being, and all that follows is how it goes about that. Don't call it intent then, call it "what it does". And what it does is move towards increasing complexity, towards increasing depths, not in a straight line of course, but a process of that becoming. What it does is become. That's it's goal, or its "intent". Or better still, it's nature.

[NotBlinded]

And in a sense it could be taken one step further. Intent is just the flow of energy and processes. Intent is the potential force in the things that are. Not "intent" as in "thought out and planned for it to be so," but rather the force is there and it pushes things to become. Power, force, energy, is in other words the same as Intent. Am I way too out there now? (And repetitive too)

As AM would say, intent results from a higher order of organization in which the outcome could be otherwise instead of inevitable or unplanned.

 

Intent is tied to purpose which then depends on a goal. It is, for example, not the intent of a species to evolve. Rather, they have the intention of surviving and the survival is facilitated by favorable genetics.

 

Am I being obtuse?

I would reduce it down further to say that the intent is to be, to become. If that is the goal, then everything has that intent. I don't see the goal of what is as being 'to not be'. If it were, we would not be. I can see where someone doesn't like the word intent because we associate that in us with willful cognizant choices, but they are actually not any different than what happens in the process of evolution, only it is occurring with the use of mind (the noosphere, rather than the biosphere), we have much more control of it by virtue of choice. Our level of intent is much greater, and much, much more autonomous. But it is a continuation of what preceded it in nature, what it is built upon before us and our minds, going all the way down to basic matter itself (the physiosphere).

 

If we are hung up on the language that intent means human-style intent with our active minds, then you could say all of it, human intent and the process of evolution itself in matter, body, and mind, is all a form of being engaged in the goal and act of being, and all that follows is how it goes about that. Don't call it intent then, call it "what it does". And what it does is move towards increasing complexity, towards increasing depths, not in a straight line of course, but a process of that becoming. What it does is become. That's it's goal, or its "intent". Or better still, it's nature.

Yes, it's just language, which is important, but can always be expanded to reach different understandings. Sometimes we have to use a word to expand on another word in order to be understood somewhat. Like saying "intent in nature". If we just say it's nature, that leaves many thinking that it's just stupid, random processes. So, in order to get the idea across, we might use the word intent to convey a meaning that just doesn't mean human intent, but something a little less understood...more vague, but none-the-less powerful.

[Ouroboros]

Yes, it's just language, which is important, but can always be expanded to reach different understandings. Sometimes we have to use a word to expand on another word in order to be understood somewhat. Like saying "intent in nature". If we just say it's nature, that leaves many thinking that it's just stupid, random processes. So, in order to get the idea across, we might use the word intent to convey a meaning that just doesn't mean human intent, but something a little less understood...more vague, but none-the-less powerful.

I also see it from the position of what we humans are. We are natural processes. Our minds emerge from these processes. When a human is said to have an intent, it is the result of the processes and the direction they take. The lines between nature's forces and human intent are really blurred if you think of humans as totally natural. If human intent is something outside, beyond, and independent of the universe and nature, then it would follow that he have some kind of supernatural "soul" or whatever (which I don't believe we do).

[NotBlinded]

Yes, it's just language, which is important, but can always be expanded to reach different understandings. Sometimes we have to use a word to expand on another word in order to be understood somewhat. Like saying "intent in nature". If we just say it's nature, that leaves many thinking that it's just stupid, random processes. So, in order to get the idea across, we might use the word intent to convey a meaning that just doesn't mean human intent, but something a little less understood...more vague, but none-the-less powerful.

I also see it from the position of what we humans are. We are natural processes. Our minds emerge from these processes. When a human is said to have an intent, it is the result of the processes and the direction they take. The lines between nature's forces and human intent are really blurred if you think of humans as totally natural. If human intent is something outside, beyond, and independent of the universe and nature, then it would follow that he have some kind of supernatural "soul" or whatever (which I don't believe we do).

Whew, I could go way out there with that Hans! But, if I did, Shy would poke me.

 

No, I understand what you're saying. I have to agree that the line between nature's forces and human intent are blurred. Personally, I don't see a difference. I'll see if I can explain. I don't think human intent is something that is outside of all there is, yet at the same time, that very same "soul" is nothing other than all there is. There is no separation between the immaterial and the material or the spiritual and the physical, IMO. I believe everything is part of that "soul", but it's a natural soul.

 

Damnit...now Shy's going to poke me Hans. Can you tell him not to? It hurts...

[Shyone]

Yes, it's just language, which is important, but can always be expanded to reach different understandings. Sometimes we have to use a word to expand on another word in order to be understood somewhat. Like saying "intent in nature". If we just say it's nature, that leaves many thinking that it's just stupid, random processes. So, in order to get the idea across, we might use the word intent to convey a meaning that just doesn't mean human intent, but something a little less understood...more vague, but none-the-less powerful.

I also see it from the position of what we humans are. We are natural processes. Our minds emerge from these processes. When a human is said to have an intent, it is the result of the processes and the direction they take. The lines between nature's forces and human intent are really blurred if you think of humans as totally natural. If human intent is something outside, beyond, and independent of the universe and nature, then it would follow that he have some kind of supernatural "soul" or whatever (which I don't believe we do).

Whew, I could go way out there with that Hans! But, if I did, Shy would poke me.

 

No, I understand what you're saying. I have to agree that the line between nature's forces and human intent are blurred. Personally, I don't see a difference. I'll see if I can explain. I don't think human intent is something that is outside of all there is, yet at the same time, that very same "soul" is nothing other than all there is. There is no separation between the immaterial and the material or the spiritual and the physical, IMO. I believe everything is part of that "soul", but it's a natural soul.

 

Damnit...now Shy's going to poke me Hans. Can you tell him not to? It hurts...

I won't poke you. I fully agree that 'intent' as we know it is natural, but there is a difference between human (or animal or plant) intent and unintelligent "intent". Call it a holon or whatever.

 

I'm just not sure how to express it. There is a difference between a mountain and a building. If I could only understand that difference, I might be able to express why human intent is different from unintelligent intent.

 

Also, I would disagree that "things are tending towards increasing complexity." The part that we see and pay attention to may be (we are human after all, and a bit biased), but laws of entropy show that things as a whole are tending towards increased randomness - chaos.

 

Now "chaos" may be "complex" but if so then the increasing order of nature on earth is "less complex" and that doesn't make sense. Order and chaos can't both be "increasing complexity."

[NotBlinded]

I won't poke you. I fully agree that 'intent' as we know it is natural, but there is a difference between human (or animal or plant) intent and unintelligent "intent". Call it a holon or whatever.

 

I'm just not sure how to express it. There is a difference between a mountain and a building. If I could only understand that difference, I might be able to express why human intent is different from unintelligent intent.

I understand what you mean, although I wouldn't call it unintelligent, but different.

 

Also, I would disagree that "things are tending towards increasing complexity." The part that we see and pay attention to may be (we are human after all, and a bit biased), but laws of entropy show that things as a whole are tending towards increased randomness - chaos.

From a biological standpoint, things do increase in complexity.

 

I can't believe I just told a doctor that!

 

Sorry...I believe you are talking on a much grander scale.

 

Now "chaos" may be "complex" but if so then the increasing order of nature on earth is "less complex" and that doesn't make sense. Order and chaos can't both be "increasing complexity."

Hmmm...you know, I don't really know. But, I will put forth just some random thoughts.

 

What order are we looking for? We can take a piece of string and look at it from different levels of magnification and notice certain patterns at one level and then look at it again from another level and see no order what-so-ever. Maybe what increases in complexity at one level diminishes at another and then we have a stable center (the piece of string)? I don't know, but it's facinating to talk about.

 

We can't always have complexity increasing, I wouldn't think, because that wouldn't be much different than Christians that only see destruction and never any growth. I believe there are different levels and those levels will probably always remain. There isn't just one grand level of complexity that all things are striving to achieve. They may reach the highest level of complexity within their own niche that they can and then stop or change. If they do change though, that would lead to the basic level continuing in complexity.

 

Whoa...I just fried my last brain cell.

 

Actually, I think it takes both chaos and order for there to be anything at all. Or, it's all order that apears to be chaotic. Okay, I need to stop now before they take me away...

[Ouroboros]

Whew, I could go way out there with that Hans! But, if I did, Shy would poke me.

He's such a pokemon...

 

No, I understand what you're saying. I have to agree that the line between nature's forces and human intent are blurred. Personally, I don't see a difference. I'll see if I can explain. I don't think human intent is something that is outside of all there is, yet at the same time, that very same "soul" is nothing other than all there is. There is no separation between the immaterial and the material or the spiritual and the physical, IMO. I believe everything is part of that "soul", but it's a natural soul.

Amen to that.

 

Damnit...now Shy's going to poke me Hans. Can you tell him not to? It hurts...

I'll ask him to use a rubber-stick instead.

[Ouroboros]

"Order" might only be an illusion, or just a simplified organization of what things we see from one specific view point.

[Shyone]

Actually, I think it takes both chaos and order for there to be anything at all. Or, it's all order that apears to be chaotic. Okay, I need to stop now before they take me away...

I'm thinking primarily in thermodynamic terms rather than social or biological.

 

In a perfectly balanced system with stable entropy, every increase in order will be countered by a decrease in order in some other part. The earth isn't perfectly balanced since we have a source of energy, so this doesn't really apply, and on earth we see order tending to increase - particularly in biological systems. This hasn't always been the case however, and some of this increase is the result of selection of random results. The selection itself however guides development. One change in the means of selection could change the entire outcome of the process, and as a result evolutions hasn't always produced "superior" life forms. Sometimes it's better to remain a slug than evolve, and sometimes even an animal that was somewhat successful on land might return to the sea.

 

It seems that life is about equilibrium rather than change, but disequilibrium leads inexorably to change.

 

Disequilibrium could be considered another type of increased entropy (randomness/chaos), so the two are tied together in that sense.

 

Poof. there went my last brain cell.

[NotBlinded]

"Order" might only be an illusion, or just a simplified organization of what things we see from one specific view point.

Or maybe chaos is the illusion? Hell, it's all an illusion, superfically anyway.

[NotBlinded]

I'm thinking primarily in thermodynamic terms rather than social or biological.

 

In a perfectly balanced system with stable entropy, every increase in order will be countered by a decrease in order in some other part. The earth isn't perfectly balanced since we have a source of energy, so this doesn't really apply, and on earth we see order tending to increase - particularly in biological systems. This hasn't always been the case however, and some of this increase is the result of selection of random results. The selection itself however guides development. One change in the means of selection could change the entire outcome of the process, and as a result evolutions hasn't always produced "superior" life forms. Sometimes it's better to remain a slug than evolve, and sometimes even an animal that was somewhat successful on land might return to the sea.

 

It seems that life is about equilibrium rather than change, but disequilibrium leads inexorably to change.

 

Disequilibrium could be considered another type of increased entropy (randomness/chaos), so the two are tied together in that sense.

 

Yes, that's what I said here:

 

What order are we looking for? We can take a piece of string and look at it from different levels of magnification and notice certain patterns at one level and then look at it again from another level and see no order what-so-ever. Maybe what increases in complexity at one level diminishes at another and then we have a stable center (the piece of string)? I don't know, but it's facinating to talk about.

 

We can't always have complexity increasing, I wouldn't think, because that wouldn't be much different than Christians that only see destruction and never any growth. I believe there are different levels and those levels will probably always remain. There isn't just one grand level of complexity that all things are striving to achieve. They may reach the highest level of complexity within their own niche that they can and then stop or change. If they do change though, that would lead to the basic level continuing in complexity.

 

At least you used your own words, but I can recognize plagiarism when I see it.

 

 

I'm just teasing. Actually, I'm fascinated that we said the same things coming from totally different angles. Hans and I usually agree, but you and I approach things differently. But, I'll be damned if we don't say the same things once in awhile.

 

Poof. there went my last brain cell.

I could say I know the feeling, but I forgot with the destruction of my last one.

[Guest confused idiot]

Something tells me I should've paid more attention in science class. Maybe I'm just a dumbass, but I'm not understanding a word of this.

[Shyone]

Something tells me I should've paid more attention in science class. Maybe I'm just a dumbass, but I'm not understanding a word of this.

Fortunately, it's not important. We have our little things to discuss, but it's not really even relevent to theology.

 

And to tell you the truth, I don't understand it either. It's at the edge of science, and enters the world of opinion and spiritualism.

 

We basically have two approaches to view "the way things are" and they have little in common. I prefer the scientific approach, but others like the spiritual approach. As NotBlinded points out, sometimes we happen to arrive at the same point from both directions and sort of agree.

 

It is possible, for example, to talk about "thinking" without talking about the brain. I am unwilling to forget that thinking requires a brain, but others are willing to let go of that and deal with "thoughts" as though they were an independent organization.

 

Well, maybe not. I don't know, and I'm sure to be misrepresenting the position of others.

 

It is the rare theist that delves into such issues, but since the issues are already essentially beyond our comprehension, it devolves into discussions about unknowns and unknowables. How does the mind work? What is consciousness? [And my favorite, "Can a computer ever become conscious and sentient?"]

 

Who the heck knows?

[Phanta]

Something tells me I should've paid more attention in science class. Maybe I'm just a dumbass, but I'm not understanding a word of this.

 

Hey there! I deal a lot with anxiety and fear and questions. It's tough stuff dealing with the insecurity inherent to the human condition! Yours are tough questions that most humans have to do some mucking through at some point or at many points.

 

The name-calling, though, is it really helpful in the answer-seeking process? You're just a struggling person without much exposure to some lines of thinking. No biggie. It's not unusual or any kind of evidence you're stupid. I know precisely crap about hard science, and I'm smart as a whip. So knock it out, hey? Be a friend and stop saying mean things about you.

 

Phanta

[NotBlinded]

Something tells me I should've paid more attention in science class. Maybe I'm just a dumbass, but I'm not understanding a word of this.

I apologize CI. Every once in awhile, we diverge from an idea that we want to put forth as another way to view things. As Shyone pointed out, there are different beliefs at this site (outside Christianty). I am a spiritual person that believes that there is an intelligent force in nature itself. Shyone is a materialist and a very smart one at that.

 

I just wanted to make sure that you know there are other ways to view nature than the western sense of an outside agent (God) working as a magician might. I see the power in life itself.

[Guest confused idiot]

Something tells me I should've paid more attention in science class. Maybe I'm just a dumbass, but I'm not understanding a word of this.

I apologize CI. Every once in awhile, we diverge from an idea that we want to put forth as another way to view things. As Shyone pointed out, there are different beliefs at this site (outside Christianty). I am a spiritual person that believes that there is an intelligent force in nature itself. Shyone is a materialist and a very smart one at that.

 

I just wanted to make sure that you know there are other ways to view nature than the western sense of an outside agent (God) working as a magician might. I see the power in life itself.

 

Nah, there's nothing to apologize for. I just meant that I was having trouble understanding science itself, with all these terms and whatnot.

[Shyone]

Nah, there's nothing to apologize for. I just meant that I was having trouble understanding science itself, with all these terms and whatnot.

I have the same trouble with politics.

[Guest confused idiot]

....What the FUCK am I doing? I fucking hate who I am and I wouldn't have a problem seeing myself burn in hell, so I don't really give a shit about anything anymore. I am a fucked up human being who does nothing but come on a message board and complain about all this shit, which makes me hate my worthless self even more.... GAH.... Forget it, I have no business here...

[Phanta]

....What the FUCK am I doing? I fucking hate who I am and I wouldn't have a problem seeing myself burn in hell, so I don't really give a shit about anything anymore. I am a fucked up human being who does nothing but come on a message board and complain about all this shit, which makes me hate my worthless self even more.... GAH.... Forget it, I have no business here...

 

Fucked up...I don't know. You sound like a person having a hard time and struggling to find the right guidance for you at this moment. You've been through a pretty big change, which can shock the system. Go easy on yourself, hey? Working stuff through doesn't happen in isolation. Communication isn't "complaining". It's part of the process. Healthy. Really. And not everyone's path or solution is going to hit on your current needs. That's normal.

 

Has anything brought you any bit of comfort, here or elsewhere, to this point? Anything at all caught your attention and made you feel lighter?

 

Phanta

[Antlerman]

....What the FUCK am I doing? I fucking hate who I am and I wouldn't have a problem seeing myself burn in hell, so I don't really give a shit about anything anymore. I am a fucked up human being who does nothing but come on a message board and complain about all this shit, which makes me hate my worthless self even more.... GAH.... Forget it, I have no business here...

Why? What specifically is your frustration with yourself over that you should turn it into an expression of self-loathing? I would not do the comparison game of 'how much more together' or 'how much smarter everyone is'. It's an illusion. We're all just as fucked up, as hard as that is to believe. Humans are all really just a bunch of neurotic primates with overly big brains.

 

"Having it together", is really nothing more than just a matter of learning to keep our neurotic selves within manageable control. Trust me, the grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence. It can only be greener on your side, and that really is a matter of choice how you wish to look at the world and yourself. You don't hate yourself. Imagine if you didn't have any concerns over thoughts? We'd just be a bunch of monkeys picking flies out of our hair and eating them, blinking our eyes blankly at the day. Cheer up.

[NotBlinded]

....What the FUCK am I doing? I fucking hate who I am and I wouldn't have a problem seeing myself burn in hell, so I don't really give a shit about anything anymore. I am a fucked up human being who does nothing but come on a message board and complain about all this shit, which makes me hate my worthless self even more.... GAH.... Forget it, I have no business here...

CI,

 

I found a little poem for you.

 

A Creed to Live By

 

Don't undermine your worth by comparing

yourself with others,

 

It is because we are different that each

of us is special.

 

Don't set your goals by what other people

deem important,

 

Only you know what is best for you.

 

Don't take for granted the things closest

to your heart

 

Cling to that as you would your life, for without

them life is meaningless.

 

Don't let your life slip through your fingers by living

in the past or the future.

 

By living your life one day at a time, you live all the

days of your life.

 

Don't give up when you still have something to give

 

Nothing is really over … until the moment

you stop trying.

 

Don't be afraid to admit that you are less

than perfect,

 

It is the fragile thread that binds us to each other.

 

Don't be afraid to encounter risks,

 

It is by taking chances that we learn how to be brave.

 

Don't shut love out of your life by saying it's

impossible to find.

 

The quickest way to receive love is to give love.

 

The fastest way to lose love is to hold on too tightly,

 

And the best way to keep love is to give it wings.

 

Don't dismiss your Dreams. To be without

dreams is to be without hope.

 

To be without hope is to be without purpose.

 

Don't run through life so fast that you forget

where you've been,

 

But also know where you're going.

 

Life is not a race, but a journey to be savored

every step of the way.

 

Author Unknown

 

And please, complain, moan and groan all you want. That's why we are here.

[Guest end3]

I believe that the thinking feeds on itself sometimes CI.... not so much anymore, but I could use to think myself into a panic damn near. The ways I got out of the thinking panic/depression thing was 1) I just said screw it, I can't even think about any of it anymore, and focused on one thing that made me happy. 2) When I let myself go that far, I did think on occasion that it was stupid to let myself let it go that far, (the thinking/panic stuff)....the pull myself up by the bootstraps thing. 3) Took antidepressants for awhile.

 

Long story short...don't feel like your alone. If you're crazy/worthless, then we all are.

 

 

P.S. Like my old dad said about the believer/non-believer thing.....no one really knows and you just have to land somewhere. I think when you land someday and you know why you land, then some of you stuff will stop, but there is no harm in taking your time.