Is It Really A Delusion?

[Kathlene]

Ok folks, Im here again with a question or few.

 

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

 

Why is it then, or how is it that people get saved and have the christian experience?

How do you explain that christians actually WANT to worship God and enjoy it and love him?

How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that I have had deep healing in my spirit by having emotional things broken in me by God?

 

My feelings from this site is that people think christians are forced to worship god or whatever. How do you explain when that is not the case, that christians find pleasure in this and deep spiritual nourishment and want to show others how to find this peace too? If God is this big bad evil thing you guys make him out to be, why are there a hundreds other stories that counter that He is not? Who is right???

 

Are you seriously saying that all christians are delusional and make these experiences up themselves? Are you saying that not only christians but three quarters of humanity that seek God and spiritual experiences are mentally ill?

 

Ive been mulling this over in my head a lot in the past few days. There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not. I could never doubt the experiences I have had as mere coincidence, or something I made up. There are just too many of them, that have had positive effects, and some that No-One else has ever known about, but contributed to it in some way.

 

Another question or thought I would like to put out there. Now please don't get me wrong, I know christians do wrong and do evil. What I would like to envisage, is what would our world look like if there was no religion in it whatsover. What would the world look like? just curious here. Would evil reign in it? well I guess you could say a lot of evil reigns in it already. Do christians fulfill a purpose on this earth, or are they just as normal and behave like your everyday Joe? I think the plan was that God would have a people that were filled with his spirit growing in holiness in Him, which by the way is a lifetime journey. People that would be salt of this earth and light for the darkness. Do christians fulfill this? Mmm not always. I think if anything we irritate and bug most of humanity with out narrowmindness. Is this the purpose of the light in the dark then that God had in mind...to show humanity a higher way of living?

 

Your thoughts?

 

I will be away over Easter , but I will try and pop in to see the progress of the thread. So please dont think I am ignoring you all.

 

Im pretty sure I know what most of the answers will be, but I am curious to see what you think about the delusional and mentally ill argument, lol.

[florduh]

"Delusional" in this case is not used in the sense of "mentally ill." It is deliberate self delusion with a purpose. People are weak and overwhelmed by life so they turn to various devices to help them cope. Irrational beliefs are numerous, religious convictions being but one.

 

People "delude" themselves into believing their abusive partner really does love them and will never do it again. They "delude" themselves into believing their worthless, criminal son is a good boy deep down. They "delude" themselves into believing a horoscope will help them sort out their future. That there is a magical force that will make everything alright. That their belief is the correct one amongst all others. That all wrongs will be righted, even if it happens after death. That there must be more to this brief life than is apparent - there just must be.

 

What all these delusions have in common is that there is no evidence, even contradictory evidence, that the delusion is reality. Yet, the delusions persist. The fact that a large number of people share the delusion of Jesus means no more than the fact that more and more every day are deluded by Mohammed's religion. Virtually the entire population of the planet once believed, without evidence, that the world was flat and at the center of the universe.

 

Regarding the prospect of no religion, good people would act good and bad people would be bad - just as it is now, be they Christian, Atheist, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever. There is no discernible difference in religious vs non-religious groups regarding incidence of crime and "immoral" acts like substance abuse, spousal abuse, infidelity and cheating in general. The only thing lacking with the absence of religion would be one popular excuse for bigotry, hatred and war.

[Ouroboros]

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

Many members on this board would not think so, but some of us do.

 

I think it's a form of delusion. The person who holds the belief does so in disregard the lack of any evidence to support the belief. I'm not consider it as a mental sickness, but rather as a delusion based on self-deceit. A religious person who believe just because they want to, feel like it, or grew up in it. Why? Why does a person hold to a conviction about something they can't prove, can't test, and can't examine? God can't be tested, it's against his word. The Bible is true because it says so. Who hold on to that?

 

Why is it then, or how is it that people get saved and have the christian experience?

How do you explain that christians actually WANT to worship God and enjoy it and love him?

How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that I have had deep healing in my spirit by having emotional things broken in me by God?

That's exactly what it is. It touches people on an emotional plane, not rational, unless you want to argue that your experience is rational, but then you would argue it is scientific and logical. But it isn't, is it?

 

How come I felt a deep healing leaving that same religion? How is it that I have deep experiences that could be called religious or spiritual without God or prayer? Can you explain that? Or would you feel it is sufficient to say that my emotions would be based on pure psychological factors? How come? Why so in my case but not in yours? How come I feel my life turned for the better after de-conversion? Do you belief I made a rational choice, or that I'm suffering a delusion from your perspective? (Remember the Bible's words that I'm a fool because I don't believe; in other words, your holy book doesn't refrain itself from calling me delusional, so why can't I return the favor?)

 

Your thoughts?

[nightflight]

Six-day creation, talking animals, a boat with seven pairs of each animal, more talking animals, sticks turning into snakes, striped sticks placed before animals causing said animal offspring to have stripes; miracles, curses, demons, people flying into the sky, and promises of a soon return in judgment and rewards.

 

You tell me.

 

Oh, I forgot the floating axe head!

[centauri]

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

Those billion people are far from being one big happy family.

They often denounce each other as being false teachers, heretics, cults, etc.

If delusion is believing in something that is false, then there are Christians that define other Christians as being deluded.

 

How do you explain when that is not the case, that christians find pleasure in this and deep spiritual nourishment and want to show others how to find this peace too?

They find pleasure in praising their ideas about the object of their worship, which is an object they define, within the parameters of their subjective preferences and desires.

They get affirmation about themselves by associating themselves with a being that they create and mold to suit their image of what "God" is.

I've never met a Christian that thought God was in disagreement with them on key doctrines of faith.

Showing others the "way" is another form of self-affirmation.

 

There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not.

The possibility of a spiritual world existing doesn't validate any particular version of God as existing.

The Christian God is simply a version of "God" or a higher being.

When someone trumpets their version of God as being an "absolute" reality for all other people, without providing proof for such a grand claim, that's when I call them delusional.

[oddbird1963]

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

Not everyone who belongs to this forum believes that Christians are delusional. I suspect that you feel that when ex-christians say fundamentalists are delusional, you feel they are saying they are somehow crazy.

 

Even fewer of the ex-C's on this site would use the word crazy or mentally ill - - - NOT from the mere fact of having religious faith.

 

However, there are elements of faith that can be delusional if one insists that the narratives of their faith has a one to one correspondence with reality of the four dimensions of this universe variety.

 

But to be clear, let's look at a few definitions of the word delusional taken from the dictionary.

 

A fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.

 

A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence,

 

a false belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that persists despite

 

the facts

 

Not all of those 1 billion Christians take their faith to be literally true. Some even have a live and let live attitude and don't try to ram their belief systems down other people's throats or force their religious point of view in schools, science classes, and governments.

 

To the degree they don't try to force the insane belief that the world is only 6000 years old onto everybody else or the faith based position that a world-wide flood explains every canyon and valley in the world, then they aren't quite so delusional or quite so bad. But really,

these folks who insist that Satan planted fossils in the ground just to fool the scientists? You don't seriously agree that these folks have a firm grasp on reality , do you? Or these men and women who insist that dinosaurs and humans were on the earth at the same time? The

evidence to refute these notions is abundant, yet they persist, don't they?

 

Isn't that the definition of delusion? Don't such people fall somewhere on the scale of delusional thinking?

 

Why is it then, or how is it that people get saved and have the christian experience? How do you explain that christians actually WANT to worship God and enjoy it and love him? How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that I have had

deep healing in my spirit by having emotional things broken in me by God?

 

People can condition themselves to enter into a wide range of emotional states - sad, happy, ecstatic, courageous based on various cues and contexts that can trigger these effects.

 

I explain the fact that Christians want to worship based on the fact that they find it pleasing, helpful or even magic. Nobody is saying that they don't. But none of that necessarily means that the object or "person" their faith is directed towards is real.

 

Face it. You're talking about a "him" that no one has ever seen. You refer to a person who is by definition immaterial, invisible and is only experienced in an emotional way. That's not the same thing as experience of a person in our four dimensional world. Forgive me if I have trouble understanding why you wouldn't understand why people find many types of religious belief somewhat delusional.

 

My feelings from this site is that people think christians are forced to worship god or whatever. How do you explain when that is not the case, that christians find pleasure in this and deep spiritual nourishment and want to show others how to find this peace too? If God is this big bad evil thing you guys make him out to be, why are there a hundreds other stories that counter that He is not? Who is right???

 

Some people may be forced to participate in their religions. But, no. I think very few ex-C's perceive Christians to be forced to worship.

 

I am right.

 

Are you seriously saying that all christians are delusional and make these experiences up themselves? Are you saying that not only christians but three quarters of humanity that seek God and spiritual experiences are mentally ill?

 

To the degree that Christians won't face facts about the time and space reality claims of their belief system, I would easily call the belief system delusional.

 

The delusions of fundamentalist christianity are shared. In other words, the elements of the delusion are not generated solely in the mind of each believer. Their delusion is fed and enabled by the believing influences in the life of the believer. The church, the family, the Bible, peers. Each person is part of a network of influence that supports the unsupported or specious truth claims of the religion.

 

Mentally ill? You are the one using that word. Whether or not it is an illness is determined by what society in general says about religious beliefs that makes claims contrary to established fact.

 

If a person is happy with their delusion and that delusion does nobody any harm, then I don't call that an illness.

 

Ive been mulling this over in my head a lot in the past few days. There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not. I could never doubt the experiences I have had as mere coincidence, or something I made up. There are just too many of them, that have had positive effects, and some that No-One else has ever known about, but contributed to it in some way.

 

Or, the spiritual world that "exists" is of a virtual reality type that is transferred from mind to mind through language and ritual. It contains symbols and narratives that push us toward a higher way of living.

 

Of course I can't presume to account for each one of your personal experiences.

 

I just know that when believers try to use facts and evidence to convince me of they reality of their spiritual experiences, the evidence is usually best explained by some combination of psychology, sociology, economics and, of course, biology.

 

Would evil reign in it? well I guess you could say a lot of evil reigns in it already. Do christians fulfill a purpose on this earth, or are they just as normal and behave like your everyday Joe? I think the plan was that God would have a people that were filled with his spirit growing in holiness in Him, which by the way is a lifetime journey. People that would be salt of this earth and light for the darkness. Do christians fulfill this? Mmm not always.

 

I think if anything we irritate and bug most of humanity with out narrowmindness. Is this the purpose of the light in the dark then that God had in mind...to show humanity a higher way of living?

I don't believe in evil the way most conservative Christians do. But yes, without religion there would be evil in the world. Different institutions would be in place to encourage people

 

to personal growth and wonder at the universe and our capabilities in it. There's nothing like scientific knowledge and education to bring about a sense of awe and wonder at existence. In fact, I have profound confidence in the ability of people trained in reason to have ethics and empathy.

 

I think ultimately, Christians fulfill the inherent drive within religions to make more followers for the survival of the religion. You keep admitting what you know to be true, but then retreating back into affirmation of your faith. Christians are no better at being good and "standing in the gap" than any other follower of religious faith. They are no more ethical than atheists or agnostics. They are not better people than Buddhists.

 

The stories in the bible are pointers to a higher, more courageous and ethical way of being.

 

But the truth to which those symbols point is not exclusive to Christianity. It is the symbols and narratives that belong to the tradition.

 

I will be away over Easter , but I will try and pop in to see the progress of the thread. So

 

please don't think I am ignoring you all.

Have an enjoyable Easter celebration!

[Mriana]

It's the "How can so many people be wrong?" question. It happens.

 

Do they really find pleasure when it all comes with a threat? Is it really a choice when they are scared into believing? Is it really a choice when their elders say they must do such and such and believe such and such or else? How is it pleasurable when there is a threat about not believing? Why is the threat necessary anyway? There are so many other religions that don't include a threat, but Xianity and Islam do. If anything is worth it's salt, there is no need to threaten people.

 

There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not.

 

One can be spiritual without being religious, believing in an afterlife, or even in a god. One can find something spiritual in nature alone, without being religious or even being superstitious.

 

Would evil reign in it?

 

There could be less "evil". If you look at the statistic of countries that are less religious, you find that they have less crime than those of religious countries such as the U.S. and Middle Eastern countries. People's values are more on finding ways to cure the ills of society on their own without reliance on the supernatural. Without a god concept, people have to strive to better society on their own in order to better themselves. In order for a society to function, there must be rules and laws. Just because there is no god doesn't mean people can rape, pillage, and murder. If they did that, a society would cease to exist eventually.

 

If you want to know what a world without religion would look like, try looking at some of the European countries that are far less religious than the U.S. European countries in which religiosity is almost non-existent.

 

Do christians fulfill a purpose on this earth, or are they just as normal and behave like your everyday Joe?

 

Depends on what Xians you are talking about. If you are talking about Xians who believe that Revelation is prophesy, well they could very well fulfill that prophesy themselves, but keep in mind that so-called prophesy is of their own making and not at all in the Bible. However, if you are talking about the liberal Xians, then I guess you could say they are more like your every day Joe, just trying to love others as they see best or in their words, as "Christ loved us". They do not believe in Rapture theology and believe God is love/love is God. It's a totally different theology from those of Rapturists.

 

As for the delusion, I don't know if I can add to anything that others have said, except the people who cannot cope with reality and are so afraid they will literally burn in hell for enjoying the material things of this world, have deluded themselves about an afterlife. Take the people of my relatives' church. They believe that will walk with our loved one's in heaven with an example like my grandmother at her funeral- they believed she was walking in a field with my late grandfather in heaven, talking and having a picnic with him. Well, she and my grandfather could have had that here on earth. Another weird concept, is that of my mother's, who says, "It would not be heaven without our pets." Well we have that here, so why not enjoy it now? Well that is material... blah, blah, blah... My point is, IF there is an afterlife, it would have to be beyond human conception. As another more liberal Xian friend of mine says, "God gave us these things here on earth to enjoy, so we might as well enjoy them now, because heaven has to be something far more greater than that." I doubt any of them is right. I do not believe there is an afterlife, BUT IF there is an afterlife, it would have to be beyond our wildest dreams.

 

Bottom line is, why we have these things, which people conceive of as being in heaven. So, why not enjoy it all now in the one and only life we know we have for sure, strive to be the best we can be, all that we can be, without any concern for reward or punishment. Why not do things for others out of the goodness of our hearts without concerns for rewards or punishments? I do things for others because I want to and sometimes because they did something for me. When someone does something for me that I appreciate I want to do something for them. I might not always feel the favour they want is what I want to do, but if that favour is helpful in some way and does not harm anyone, I do it because I want to return the favour they did for me. That is where the "out of the goodness of one's heart" comes from- the desire to something for someone else, whether or not they do do something for you. If they do, great, but if not, at least you did something for them and in the end, you feel better about yourself. Thus, it is a two-way street- you help them and in return you feel good. It doesn't really matter if they return the favour, but it is nice when they do.

 

This is one of many things that makes life meaningful. So it makes no sense for someone not to face reality squarely on their own two feet. It makes no sense for someone to even fear reality, but all too many people do and they also fear death. To me, this makes no sense, because I have always received great comfort from my pets and sometimes I've received it from other humans. I enjoy the experiences I have with nature and seeing wild animals. I enjoy receiving hugs from others I appreciate in my life. Such things give me the very same experiences I had with the sights, sounds, tastes, smells, and actions in church- that is in an Episcopal Church. The only experiences I had in an Evangelical Church was fear, but it wasn't of a deity, but rather the other humans. All of these experiences though are neurological. That is, an external stimuli triggered internal chemistry, which in turned caused numinous feelings (in this case, one can pick one or all of the definitions in Webster for the word "numinous"). These transcendent feelings/experiences, no matter what triggers them, feels, to quote Barbra Streisand in <i>The Mirror Has Two Faces</i> concerning "love", f***ing good! Love is another feeling caused by neurology and the stimulus is another human or a even beloved pet. Of course, in this case, I am speaking of the many definitions of love, not just romantic love.

 

So basically, we do not need any human concepts concerning a god, heaven, or hell in order to live a good, descent, enjoyable, and healthy life nor do we need any such concepts to have feelings of transcendence or spirituality. Nature alone, which includes the earth, animals, and other human beings, and the desire to better oneself and society with reason and compassion is enough and I think I just described humanism in a nutshell.

[Snowflake]

I'd like to take a stab at your questions if you don't mind.

 

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

 

Why is it then, or how is it that people get saved and have the christian experience?

How do you explain that christians actually WANT to worship God and enjoy it and love him?

How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that I have had deep healing in my spirit by having emotional things broken in me by God?

 

I believe that they are delusional only in the sense that they believe in a lie. Not delusional in the sense that they are crazy. People want to worship a god for different reasons, I think. Some take comfort in the thought that something larger and benevolent and more powerful than themselves is in control, for instance, I'm not sure what other motives might be. The tears and emotions that some feel in worship are real but that doesn't prove the existence of a god. Music moves my spirit and has brought me to tears, so has beautiful poetry, books, art, etc...

 

My feelings from this site is that people think christians are forced to worship god or whatever. How do you explain when that is not the case, that christians find pleasure in this and deep spiritual nourishment and want to show others how to find this peace too? If God is this big bad evil thing you guys make him out to be, why are there a hundreds other stories that counter that He is not? Who is right???

My experience was not that of forced worship of a god. I understand that some christians might wish to share their experience with others, but it goes too far when they wont take no for an answer. Pushing their christian agenda on others when it is unwanted and trying to impose their religion on others is where I take exception to it. Mandating prayer in schools, teaching creationism in schools are some examples of that. I don't find god to be an evil concept. What religions do to people sometimes can be evil. I don't know that it is a matter of who is right and who is wrong, there are people who have terrible experiences and others who have not so terrible ones...

 

Ive been mulling this over in my head a lot in the past few days. There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not. I could never doubt the experiences I have had as mere coincidence, or something I made up. There are just too many of them, that have had positive effects, and some that No-One else has ever known about, but contributed to it in some way.

 

People who meditate can have transcendent, spiritual experiences whether they believe in a god or not. They can somehow tap into a part of the brain that allows them to have amazing experiences that brings them to a place of peace and tranquility. There is a lot about the brain that we just don't know.

 

Another question or thought I would like to put out there. Now please don't get me wrong, I know christians do wrong and do evil. What I would like to envisage, is what would our world look like if there was no religion in it whatsover. What would the world look like? just curious here. Would evil reign in it? well I guess you could say a lot of evil reigns in it already. Do christians fulfill a purpose on this earth, or are they just as normal and behave like your everyday Joe? I think the plan was that God would have a people that were filled with his spirit growing in holiness in Him, which by the way is a lifetime journey. People that would be salt of this earth and light for the darkness. Do christians fulfill this? Mmm not always. I think if anything we irritate and bug most of humanity with out narrowmindness. Is this the purpose of the light in the dark then that God had in mind...to show humanity a higher way of living?

 

Why do you assume that evil would reign in the world if there were no christians in it? Just look at the current scandal in the Catholic church if you would like an example of evil that reigns in a religious institution that includes a belief in a god and faith in Jesus Christ. Is belief in a god necessary for morality? I know the difference between right and wrong, I don't steal, I am honest, I pay my taxes, I like puppies and kittens...

 

Christians fulfill the same purpose as anyone else, I suppose. Certainly not a higher way of living.

[godlessgrrl]

Evenin', Kathlene.

 

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

 

I don't, exactly. But sort of.

 

The word "delusion" and its derivatives are very highly charged words. They leave an impression of insanity, of someone who is disconnected with reality - "talking to the fairies", as my grandmother puts it. I don't actually think that theists around the world are delusional in the sense of being utterly babbling batshyte insane. Sure, some are, but some people in any given population are going to be that way anyway, and religion may or may not have anything to do with it.

 

With that said...

 

Why is it then, or how is it that people get saved and have the christian experience?

How do you explain that christians actually WANT to worship God and enjoy it and love him?

How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that I have had deep healing in my spirit by having emotional things broken in me by God?

 

...oh my, the human brain is a wonderful, fearful, beautiful, tricky thing.

 

Sometimes people get in arguments about whether or not belief is a choice. I don't generally think it is... until I encounter someone who's willfully ignorant. Then I'm reminded that people can indeed convince themselves of something that isn't true, if they really want to believe it hard enough. I'm also reminded that emotional experiences can be extremely powerful and extremely convincing, and I'm reminded of weird things our brains do like fall for confirmation bias.

 

Can someone convince themselves something is true? Yeah, I think people probably can, especially if it feels really really good to do so.

 

My feelings from this site is that people think christians are forced to worship god or whatever. How do you explain when that is not the case, that christians find pleasure in this and deep spiritual nourishment and want to show others how to find this peace too? If God is this big bad evil thing you guys make him out to be, why are there a hundreds other stories that counter that He is not? Who is right???

 

Eh, I don't think that theists are forced to worship. But y'all might be driven to it by the pleasure centers in your brain. If it feels good to believe in a god and worship him, then you're going to do it more - and maybe try to convince others to join you, just depends.

 

As to stories about god and its nature, I don't think a god exists, so any stories about him are just that: stories. Good or bad.

 

Are you seriously saying that all christians are delusional and make these experiences up themselves? Are you saying that not only christians but three quarters of humanity that seek God and spiritual experiences are mentally ill?

 

Not exactly. I'd say that human brains do really really weird things, and are a lot more powerful and amazing than we realize, and can produce effects we never even dreamed were possible.

 

Ive been mulling this over in my head a lot in the past few days. There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not. I could never doubt the experiences I have had as mere coincidence, or something I made up. There are just too many of them, that have had positive effects, and some that No-One else has ever known about, but contributed to it in some way.

 

Define "spiritual".

 

Sheesh, and I will never understand how you theists are able to describe weird coincidences using the word "mere".

 

Weird shit happens. There's no reason to believe something supernatural guides it, but there's also no reason to belittle it either. Isn't the natural world weird enough on its own without trying to insert a deity? I think it is.

 

Another question or thought I would like to put out there. Now please don't get me wrong, I know christians do wrong and do evil. What I would like to envisage, is what would our world look like if there was no religion in it whatsover. What would the world look like? just curious here. Would evil reign in it? well I guess you could say a lot of evil reigns in it already. Do christians fulfill a purpose on this earth, or are they just as normal and behave like your everyday Joe?

 

Oooh, I actually wrote a blog post about this some ages ago, about what the world would look like if religion vanished overnight. For some reason it got a lot more comments than most of my blog posts do... see here if you want to read it.

 

In a nutshell, I hypothesized that if religion vanished overnight, people would have to come up with reasons and explanations and whatnot that didn't involve a deity. Some people would still do great ill, others wouldn't.

 

I'm pretty sure we'd figure out a way to live with one another sans belief in a god or gods. After all, there are plenty of very social animal species out there, and as far as we know they don't have any god-beliefs in place, or any religion - yet they manage to figure out how to live together well enough not to wipe themselves out. I'm sure humans could do the same.

 

I don't think Christians fulfill any particular purpose. And in my experience, you're pretty much like the rest of us.

 

I think the plan was that God would have a people that were filled with his spirit growing in holiness in Him, which by the way is a lifetime journey. People that would be salt of this earth and light for the darkness. Do christians fulfill this? Mmm not always. I think if anything we irritate and bug most of humanity with out narrowmindness. Is this the purpose of the light in the dark then that God had in mind...to show humanity a higher way of living?

 

I think you need to establish that a god exists before you can comment on its nature and intentions.

 

It's been a long week and it's only Wednesday, so I'm going to bow out for now.

[Dagan]

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

 

No more delusional than the billion people who believe in Allah and Mohammed, or those who believe in ancestor gods, or that science will save us all.

 

How do you explain that christians actually WANT to worship God and enjoy it and love him?

How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that I have had deep healing in my spirit by having emotional things broken in me by God?

 

I've experienced this too. I wanted to worship and I loved it and it made me feel good to humble myself before my creator. I wept, I had visions, I dreamed dreams. God showed me things about myself that needed to change.

 

Then I realized the voice of god I had been hearing was my own mind all along.

 

Are you saying that not only christians but three quarters of humanity that seek God and spiritual experiences are mentally ill?

 

I have concluded that all human beings are mentally ill in different ways. I have my own set of mental problems and weaknesses, we all do. We are flawed creatures. I think there are good reasons so many of us seek God, but I don't think they're the reasons believers want them to be.

 

what would our world look like if there was no religion in it whatsover.

 

I think it would look a lot like this one, but maybe with better technology. And less environmental damage. Either that, or human beings would have fragmented into unsustainable small groups and died out long ago.

[Sconnor]

de·lude

 

To deceive the mind or judgment of

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/delude

 

de·lu·sion

 

1. a.The act or process of deluding.

b. The state of being deluded.

 

2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.

3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/delusion

 

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

 

Yes!

 

Also, it is fallacious to appeal to the majority where you claim your beliefs are true because many people believe it to be true -- Argumentum ad populum.

 

At one time the majority believed we were the center of the universe -- not true.

 

Additionally there are 1.5 billion who believe in the qur'an -- Allah's final revelation to mankind.

 

And there are 1.2 billion (and rapidly growing) secular, nonreligious people in the world.

 

According to your logic these contradicting beliefs (I posited, above) have validity, because MANY people accept them.

 

Why is it then, or how is it that people get saved and have the christian experience?

How do you explain that christians actually WANT to worship God and enjoy it and love him?

How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that I have had deep healing in my spirit by having emotional things broken in me by God?

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- delusional people can convince themselves of anything. Christianity is your form of a motivational speaker, nothing but a rah, rah device to kick yourself in the butt, where you pretend something spiritual; mystical, (divine ecstasy) has happened, that god had his hand in it, none of which can be substantiated -- that's lunacy. You have simply fabricated an insanely and fantastic, massive delusion by idiosyncratically interpreting the superstitious, spurious words of scripture and by erroneously attributing emotions to your god-character. You are pretending to have a relationship with a fictional character out of a book.

 

That's hardcore, make-believe, delusional!

 

If God is this big bad evil thing you guys make him out to be, why are there a hundreds other stories that counter that He is not? Who is right???

 

This is where you are extremely confused. Please try and understand -- if (IF) there is a living god; no one knows his will or character, (good or bad).

 

The only way you think you know god is by your selective interpretation of scripture, where you select the good attributes, while ignoring or rationalizing away the vile, evil attributes. If there is a living god, you know NOTHING of him, except what you conjured up and constructed in your own imagination -- delusional.

 

We are ONLY pointing out the evil, monstrous actions of the fictional character (god) portrayed in the bible, which contradicts your god-construct.

 

If there is a living god, we make NO definitive claims of his attributes -- get it?

 

We know nothing of this supposed living god and neither do you.

 

You have NO evidence that god is good or loving, outside the confines of your imagination -- that's delusional.

 

Are you seriously saying that all christians are delusional and make these experiences up themselves?

 

Pretty much.

 

Are you saying that not only christians but three quarters of humanity that seek God and spiritual experiences are mentally ill?

 

Some yes; others -- just delusional.

 

Ive been mulling this over in my head a lot in the past few days. There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not. I could never doubt the experiences I have had as mere coincidence, or something I made up. There are just too many of them, that have had positive effects, and some that No-One else has ever known about, but contributed to it in some way.

 

You seem to be trying to convince yourself.

 

In any regard; again, delusional people can convince themselves about anything.

 

What I would like to envisage, is what would our world look like if there was no religion in it whatsover. What would the world look like?

 

I'll cut to the chase. You are desperately trying to salvage your pitiful beliefs by proposing that christinaity is beneficial, in some way.

 

There is NOTHING that is good in christianity that can't be done without it.

 

Comprehend and deal with it.

 

--S.

[Vixentrox]

Ok folks, Im here again with a question or few.

 

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

 

Why is it then, or how is it that people get saved and have the christian experience?

How do you explain that christians actually WANT to worship God and enjoy it and love him?

How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that I have had deep healing in my spirit by having emotional things broken in me by God?

 

My feelings from this site is that people think christians are forced to worship god or whatever. How do you explain when that is not the case, that christians find pleasure in this and deep spiritual nourishment and want to show others how to find this peace too? If God is this big bad evil thing you guys make him out to be, why are there a hundreds other stories that counter that He is not? Who is right???

 

Are you seriously saying that all christians are delusional and make these experiences up themselves? Are you saying that not only christians but three quarters of humanity that seek God and spiritual experiences are mentally ill?

 

Ive been mulling this over in my head a lot in the past few days. There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not. I could never doubt the experiences I have had as mere coincidence, or something I made up. There are just too many of them, that have had positive effects, and some that No-One else has ever known about, but contributed to it in some way.

 

Another question or thought I would like to put out there. Now please don't get me wrong, I know christians do wrong and do evil. What I would like to envisage, is what would our world look like if there was no religion in it whatsover. What would the world look like? just curious here. Would evil reign in it? well I guess you could say a lot of evil reigns in it already. Do christians fulfill a purpose on this earth, or are they just as normal and behave like your everyday Joe? I think the plan was that God would have a people that were filled with his spirit growing in holiness in Him, which by the way is a lifetime journey. People that would be salt of this earth and light for the darkness. Do christians fulfill this? Mmm not always. I think if anything we irritate and bug most of humanity with out narrowmindness. Is this the purpose of the light in the dark then that God had in mind...to show humanity a higher way of living?

 

Your thoughts?

 

I will be away over Easter , but I will try and pop in to see the progress of the thread. So please dont think I am ignoring you all.

 

Im pretty sure I know what most of the answers will be, but I am curious to see what you think about the delusional and mentally ill argument, lol.

Do you really believe a billion people are delusional for following the prophet Mohamed?

 

Why is it then, or how is it that people get saved and have the Muslim experience?

How do you explain that Muslims actually WANT to worship Allah and enjoy it and love him?

How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that people have had deep healing in their spirit by having emotional things broken in them fixed by Allah?

 

"My feelings from this site is that people think christians are forced to worship god or whatever." Some are. They indoctrinate their kids.

 

 

How do you explain when that is not the case, that Muslims find pleasure in this and deep spiritual nourishment and want to show others how to find this peace too? If Allah is this big bad evil thing Christians make him out to be, why are there a hundreds other stories that counter that He is not? Who is right???

 

Are you seriously saying that all Muslims are delusional and make these experiences up themselves?

 

"Are you saying that not only christians but three quarters of humanity that seek God and spiritual experiences are mentally ill?" Are you validating that other faith have spiritual experiences and are equally true?

 

"Ive been mulling this over in my head a lot in the past few days. There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not. I could never doubt the experiences I have had as mere coincidence, or something I made up. There are just too many of them, that have had positive effects, and some that No-One else has ever known about, but contributed to it in some way." Self-delusion is a powerful thing. So are self-fulfilling prophecies. You want a positive effect to happen, work for it to happen whether consciously or not, then attribute it to your imaginary boyfriend.

[Crazy Donna]

There are two main reasons I think people choose christianity. Firstly, they want to belong. Our desire to belong and be accepted is hardwired in human beings, because during our evolutionary heritage, those who did not belong and were accepted by a group were vulnerable. Outcasts had no support, no access to the combined efforts of a community that made food, shelter, warmth, and other necessities available. In other words, those who did not belong were at risk of death from the denial of their basic physiological needs.

 

The desire to belong is a strong human urge. There is a reason why some people fear public speaking more than death, and that is because rejection in early humans meant probable death.

 

If you're feeling vulnerable, you'll want to accept ANYWHERE, and christianity says "Yes, we'll accept you, and all your problems. Just bow down and love jesus and believe in him."

 

The second reason people choose christianity is closely wired to the previous reason. People are afraid. They fear. They are told that jesus will fix their problems, but at the same time, they are told that if they don't believe in jesus, they will burn forever in the pits of inextinguishable hell. If people you trust tell you to be afraid of something because it's dangerous, you believe them. I believed my mother for years when she told me that flouride was a mind control drug, (I was just a kid, mind you, a very young kid) and then I found out she was just talking bullshit. You believe what you are told if you trust who is telling it to you.

 

Fear, plus wanting to be accepted, go a long way to explaining why people continue to worship such a repugnant, imaginary god.

 

The number of people who believe something doesn't make it true. A lot of people believed that the Earth is flat, but they were wrong. A lot of people believe in Santa Claus (mind you, most of them are under the age of five) but that doesn't make Santa real, does it?

[bdp]

Without wading through your whole post - yes, it's a delusion, no matter how many are having it. Of course not all Xtians are literalists, but that's another discussion for another time.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

It is a delusion in the sense that, someone is under a willful misapphrension. Choosing to see things as they aren't really, like say a act of god, when a god would have nothing to do with it.

 

I am not one to call religion a total delusion, more a outdated explanation of the world.

 

Genesis for example, while it doubles as a creation myth, also does something else. In the minds of its inventors it says why bad things happen to good people. Of course we know know, that morals develop unequal in our species. Some are biologically better at being moral then others.

 

Though Kath I do have, to point out the ego in your question.

 

Christians forced to worship, well, not really people could leave there religions if they really wanted to(God permitting).

 

Also for the tenth million time I will tell you. Religion plays on psychology. Ever noticed how people can get going at a pentocostal rally, its fucking psychology, not the spirit of god.

In fact many church musicians notice that. Dan Barker of the FFRF has talked about it. I remember reading the musician on here SteveMuso's talking about that.

 

You say your personal evidence of a relationship of God is your evidence. How can this be truely evidence, when people of other religion's experience god.

 

To me that lends credence to the theory that it is all of the brain.

 

Your experiences are very real to you. But, there are a product of conditioning to expect things like that. You told me that you went to a Pentecostal church for 13 years. That is great training.

 

What is more likely that all these people are using a thing that seems real do to how it works on the brain, or that every experience is true, because if you use it in your case you have to grant all other religions as true.

 

Of course you can say the devil tricked them all, but heh that is why they call it a delusion.

 

Ohhh and about

 

"Another question or thought I would like to put out there. Now please don't get me wrong, I know christians do wrong and do evil. What I would like to envisage, is what would our world look like if there was no religion in it whatsover. What would the world look like? just curious here. Would evil reign in it? well I guess you could say a lot of evil reigns in it already. Do christians fulfill a purpose on this earth, or are they just as normal and behave like your everyday Joe? I think the plan was that God would have a people that were filled with his spirit growing in holiness in Him, which by the way is a lifetime journey. People that would be salt of this earth and light for the darkness. Do christians fulfill this? Mmm not always. I think if anything we irritate and bug most of humanity with out narrowmindness. Is this the purpose of the light in the dark then that God had in mind...to show humanity a higher way of living? "

 

I will leave you a from the late great stephen jay gould and a few others

 

"Nothing is more dangerous than a dogmatic worldview - nothing more constraining, more blinding to innovation, more destructive of openness to novelty. " -Stephen Jay Gould

 

hemmph that is religion

 

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

 

One last from dan barker

 

"Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits."

Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith", 1992

[Guest I Love Dog]

The figure is actually around 2.1 billion. So it's even worse than at first thought, the delusional experience.

 

Of course, 2.1 billion is only around 30% of the World's population, so that means 60% of the World's population do NOT believe in Jesus. That makes me feel better!

 

You are entirely wrong about three quarters of the World's population. Do your research.

 

Being "saved" is not the normal experience of Christians, only strange sects, mainly American, go through the process of being "saved". Most normal people, Christians or not, do not see themselves as needing to be "saved" and there is no process among "normal" Christian sects of being "saved".

 

The percentage of people that attend church is minuscule, compared to the number of people that declare themselves to be "Christian". Australia is 40% Christian. Only 9% of them attend church.

 

What would the World look like without religion in it? Well, if it wasn't for Christianity, I can quote experts as saying that if Christianity had not demonized, executed, tortured and banned scientists and medicos for 1500 years then there would have been a cure for cancer 200 years ago and

most other disease and illness would have vanished from the face of the Earth long ago.

 

If people who declare themselves to be "Christian" were true to their belief and faith then crime rates in the US would descend to the almost uncountable. USA has the highest % rate of people declaring themselves to be Christian, yet has the highest rates in the World for just about every crime. That's how much "Christians" think of Christianity, its god and its holey babble. They say they are "Christian" because it's acceptable. There's a big price to pay in USA if you declare yourself to be an atheist, a non-believer, or a non-Christian.

 

To believe in Yahweh/Jehovah/the Christian god, a god, just one of thousands, a god who was invented by donkey nomads thousands of years ago, to read Yahweh's "true and honest" words as recorded in the holey babble, to adjust your thinking into accepting all of the atrocities perpetrated in Yahweh's name and by Yahweh himself, and to continue to think that he was the creator, is in itself delusional, and yes, akin to mental illness. There have been 20,000 religions and 30,000 gods on planet Earth in the past 6000 years. All of the gods were invented by men. There is no evidence for even one of them.

 

If you then look at Jesus worship, someone who most likely didn't exist, someone who, on a whim, cast demons into 2000 pigs(a villagers most prized possession) and made them jump off a cliff and into the sea to drown, without magically providing the poor starving people with 2000 replacements, someone who's "miracles", including his miraculous birth from a virgin, had all been performed thousands of years before by other invented gods and prophets, you surely would doubt someone's intelligence/sanity even more.

 

Christianity was built on fear, torture, execution, until the sad, uneducated masses got the message that the Roman Church, the "one true" religion", with the "one true god" was THE ruler of their lives. Obey or die. People since then have an inbuilt fear of what the RCC taught.

 

We are now living in the 21st century, we have freed ourselves(thanks to Henry VIII) from the total rule, the total subservience, the total ignorance that the RCC would have had us living under. We now have free choice. Only the delusional or uneducated masses choose religion these days.

 

Many humans need a crutch, a comfort system, and this is what religion gives them, particularly the uneducated and the impoverished, the starving and the needy. If there was an almighty god figure who was all powerful, then misery and suffering would have been fixed long ago. Would you let your children starve and die from excruciating disease, live on the street without helping them? Go figure.

 

Yahweh/Jehovah/God/Jesus. it's all rubbish.

[mwc]

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

How is this any different to the "entire world" (at the time) believing in whatever ancient god(s) of the day? Were they "delusional" as in "mentally ill?" Of course not. Were they delusional as in "holding a false belief?" Most definitely.

 

Move to present day and xianity. It's closer to 2 billion...and yes all these people are delusional based on what I have just said.

 

Why is it then, or how is it that people get saved and have the christian experience?

How do you explain that christians actually WANT to worship God and enjoy it and love him?

How do you explain the tears that flow when some people worship? How is it that I have had deep healing in my spirit by having emotional things broken in me by God?

What kind of questions are these?

 

People do not "get saved." But people do convert to Christianity.

 

People have the "Christian experience." So? People had the Beatles experience too. Have you seen the footage? The became fans of the Beatles and then the freaked the fuck out. They absolutely lost their minds. They wanted all the things you say you want and did all the things you say you do and felt all the emotions you say you feel. It's all recorded on film for all to see over and over again. I know all this and I'm not even a fan.

 

My feelings from this site is that people think christians are forced to worship god or whatever. How do you explain when that is not the case, that christians find pleasure in this and deep spiritual nourishment and want to show others how to find this peace too? If God is this big bad evil thing you guys make him out to be, why are there a hundreds other stories that counter that He is not? Who is right???

No one forced the Beatles fans to buy their merchandise. They did, and do, so willingly. And?

 

The brain is a little drug dispenser. When you do something that your brain likes it kicks out a little reward. You get "hooked" on this like a junkie. You're an addict. You'll want more and more over time and if you don't get it the effect will wear off. So right now you're "on fire" but if you can't keep the chemicals flowing you'll become "luke warm" like everyone tends to do over time (unless you can find a way to rekindle that fire). Enjoy it while it lasts (roughly 6 months to 2 years).

 

Are you seriously saying that all christians are delusional and make these experiences up themselves? Are you saying that not only christians but three quarters of humanity that seek God and spiritual experiences are mentally ill?

No. You're saying that these people are mentally ill. I used a different definition of the word.

 

Ive been mulling this over in my head a lot in the past few days. There is either a spiritual world out there or there is not. I could never doubt the experiences I have had as mere coincidence, or something I made up. There are just too many of them, that have had positive effects, and some that No-One else has ever known about, but contributed to it in some way.

I'm glad your personal experiences of the unprovable and unexplainable are something you think that I should take seriously. I'm going to disagree. I'm sorry that you have classified these events as either truth or signs of mental illness rather than possibly seeing them as coincidence, confirmation-bias (something related to this) or just flat out being wrong/mistaken. Critical thinking skills would help you analyze the situation but you've opted to look to "belief" instead.

 

Another question or thought I would like to put out there. Now please don't get me wrong, I know christians do wrong and do evil. What I would like to envisage, is what would our world look like if there was no religion in it whatsover. What would the world look like? just curious here. Would evil reign in it? well I guess you could say a lot of evil reigns in it already. Do christians fulfill a purpose on this earth, or are they just as normal and behave like your everyday Joe? I think the plan was that God would have a people that were filled with his spirit growing in holiness in Him, which by the way is a lifetime journey. People that would be salt of this earth and light for the darkness. Do christians fulfill this? Mmm not always. I think if anything we irritate and bug most of humanity with out narrowmindness. Is this the purpose of the light in the dark then that God had in mind...to show humanity a higher way of living?

Are you asking about no religion or no xians? You confuse the two.

 

You won't rid the world of "evil." That is a pipe dream. What one person finds perfectly acceptable another finds "evil" and will then attempt to control, or destroy, the first person in order to get rid of the "evil." Unless everyone thinks and acts identically in every way at all times there will always be "evil."

 

The only purpose religions serve is to bring everyone under a single umbrella of thought but any unifying philosophy could do that. If we all start to "believe" (read: think, act, behave) in the same exact way then "evil" would be no more. So if we all become a single unified sect of xianity then "evil" would be extinguished. If we converted to multiple sects of xianity then "evil" would still exist in the "other" sects and would need to be converted or purged. If we all voluntarily converted to a single Muslim sect or any single philosophy and everyone stuck to it, without wavering, then "evil" would be no more. And so would individuality to a large extent and many other things we tend to take for granted but that's the price of eliminating "evil." But there's no single philosophy that everyone wants to join and follow without question that also satisfies the needs of all. It just doesn't exist.

 

mwc

[Ouroboros]

"Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Charles Mackay, published 1841, contains a couple of real stories about mass delusions. One of them is the South Sea Company bubble, and another is the Dutch Tupil mania. What's interesting is that these manias described from history are very much similar to the housing bubble and the stock bubbles in the past. People go crazy over one single thing, a fad that has its own power and energy, and people just buy into it faster than I can type this sentence. What I'm talking about is: people can go delusional in masses. It's a fact. It has been observed, studied, and documented time and time again. To argue that the South Sea Company was the right and best investment just because a couple of early investors made a big chunk of money, did not make the Sea Company any more real than the fictitious Jesus or Santa Claus. People do go delusional over things, and they can do so in large groups. Actually, it's worse in larger groups, not the reversed. In large groups, people start reasoning like you Kathelen. "Well, Bob, Sarah, and Linda all believe this, so it must be true." That's a bad argument and very dangerous reasoning. "Well, Bob, Sarah, and Linda made a lot of money on buying a house on 100% loans and flipping it two years later, so it must be a good investment." Right?

[Shyone]

Also, it is fallacious to appeal to the majority where you claim your beliefs are true because many people believe it to be true -- Argumentum ad populum.

 

At one time the majority believed we were the center of the universe -- not true.

 

Additionally there are 1.5 billion who believe in the qur'an -- Allah's final revelation to mankind.

 

And there are 1.2 billion (and rapidly growing) secular, nonreligious people in the world.

 

According to your logic these contradicting beliefs (I posited, above) have validity, because MANY people accept them.

--S.

Reality is not decided by popular vote.

[ebonileigh]

Hi Kathlene,

 

I haven't read all of the posts subsequent to your op, except that of Florduh, and I happen to support this post. I would just like to say Kathlene, that considering you said at the end of your post that already anticipated the forthcoming answers as you have most likely heard them before hear at ex-c, that your rational reasoning part of your brain knows what is true but your emotional part wants to stick with 'the faith' because it feels good to you. And perhaps if you follow what is rational, reasonable and true and you leave 'the faith' you will lose family friends and a social network. Would that be the case?

[par4dcourse]

Ok folks, Im here again with a question or few.

 

Do you guys really believe that a billion people on this earth are delusional for believing in Jesus?

 

 

Yes.

 

Anything else I can help you with?

[ebonileigh]

"Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Charles Mackay, published 1841, contains a couple of real stories about mass delusions. One of them is the South Sea Company bubble, and another is the Dutch Tupil mania. What's interesting is that these manias described from history are very much similar to the housing bubble and the stock bubbles in the past. People go crazy over one single thing, a fad that has its own power and energy, and people just buy into it faster than I can type this sentence. What I'm talking about is: people can go delusional in masses. It's a fact. It has been observed, studied, and documented time and time again. To argue that the South Sea Company was the right and best investment just because a couple of early investors made a big chunk of money, did not make the Sea Company any more real than the fictitious Jesus or Santa Claus. People do go delusional over things, and they can do so in large groups. Actually, it's worse in larger groups, not the reversed. In large groups, people start reasoning like you Kathelen. "Well, Bob, Sarah, and Linda all believe this, so it must be true." That's a bad argument and very dangerous reasoning. "Well, Bob, Sarah, and Linda made a lot of money on buying a house on 100% loans and flipping it two years later, so it must be a good investment." Right?

The herd and stampede mentality.

[Ouroboros]

"Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds" by Charles Mackay, published 1841, contains a couple of real stories about mass delusions. One of them is the South Sea Company bubble, and another is the Dutch Tupil mania. What's interesting is that these manias described from history are very much similar to the housing bubble and the stock bubbles in the past. People go crazy over one single thing, a fad that has its own power and energy, and people just buy into it faster than I can type this sentence. What I'm talking about is: people can go delusional in masses. It's a fact. It has been observed, studied, and documented time and time again. To argue that the South Sea Company was the right and best investment just because a couple of early investors made a big chunk of money, did not make the Sea Company any more real than the fictitious Jesus or Santa Claus. People do go delusional over things, and they can do so in large groups. Actually, it's worse in larger groups, not the reversed. In large groups, people start reasoning like you Kathelen. "Well, Bob, Sarah, and Linda all believe this, so it must be true." That's a bad argument and very dangerous reasoning. "Well, Bob, Sarah, and Linda made a lot of money on buying a house on 100% loans and flipping it two years later, so it must be a good investment." Right?

The herd and stampede mentality.

Exactly right. I believe a majority of people need to be in a herd, they don't want to or can't think for themselves. It forces them into group mentality, and religion provides that answer, it satisfies that need of belonging.

[Heimdall]

My question to our Christian poster...are the 1 billion plus followers of Islam (the fastest growing major religion in the world) delusional? - Heimdall

[Ouroboros]

I think I saw a number of 2 billion Muslims somewhere.

 

I think there are more Chinese speaking people in the world than English? Can anyone confirm this?