Greatest I am Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 Is God/Jesus giving God/Jesus to God/Jesus, giving a sacrifice? I follow God the father on this issue and think as He does. If you give you to you, do you gain? No. Do you lose? No If you do not lose or give up something, are you giving a sacrifice? No. Conclusion. No sacrifice. Why have you forsaken me is answered here. Pro 21:3 To do justice and judgment [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. The vicarious sacrifice of Jesus was refused by God. No scapegoat Jesus. As it should have been. It was immoral. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2xceAHNgG4&feature=related Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 I'm watching the videos to see if this makes more sense, but Christopher H. is not making much sense so far. Seems to me like a lot of double talk. I'm trying to make sense of what you are asking. I really am, but I really don't know what you are asking. I'd say lunatic, but I'm not sure that is the question you are really asking. The Crucifixion was immoral AND it was murder/suicide. IF Jesus lived, he committed suicide because he did not fight back. God or no god, the humans did it in the story- they killed Jesus, be they Roman or Jew, they all did it. Not sure if I understood or not, but that's my response. IMHO, it is all just a story; rewritten mythology, and not a bit of it true. Certainly not a story I wish my sons had to learn. It is really sick theology, not something beautiful at all, as Fundamngelicals would like one to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 I'm watching the videos to see if this makes more sense, but Christopher H. is not making much sense so far. Seems to me like a lot of double talk. I'm trying to make sense of what you are asking. I really am, but I really don't know what you are asking. I'd say lunatic, but I'm not sure that is the question you are really asking. The Crucifixion was immoral AND it was murder/suicide. IF Jesus lived, he committed suicide because he did not fight back. God or no god, the humans did it in the story- they killed Jesus, be they Roman or Jew, they all did it. Not sure if I understood or not, but that's my response. IMHO, it is all just a story; rewritten mythology, and not a bit of it true. Certainly not a story I wish my sons had to learn. It is really sick theology, not something beautiful at all, as Fundamngelicals would like one to believe. If you believe the foreknowledge (or accept that Jesus at least knew what was happening some way), then it is clear he not only didn't avoid being captured and prosecuted for treason, but he made provocative moves that made the outcome virtually inevitable. Today, we would call that "suidice by cop." Just because others may have participated does not remove the blame from Jesus for his own misfortune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 I wasn't saying it did remove the blame from Jesus. What he did was suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 I wasn't saying it did remove the blame from Jesus. What he did was suicide. Right. I got that. I was saying it was "suicide by cop" as we would call it today. Shifting the blame to those who enforce the law doesn't remove Jesus' responsibility (as some Christians have argued). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 It doesn't remove the blame from any of them IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 It doesn't remove the blame from any of them IMO Perhaps not, but given the laws that were in force at that time, execution for treason (claiming to be the King of the Jews) would not be extraordinary. Was the verdict incorrect? Was the penalty unjust? I realize there are diffeent interpretations of why Jesus was killed - He was innocent but the Romans were mistaken, or he was framed by the Saducces, etc. But most people would consider that claiming to be the Messiah (in the sense of the hereditary king of Israel) constitutes a capital crime. Why else would Peter have denied him? He would have been considered a traitor as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 3, 2010 Share Posted April 3, 2010 Thus it makes the story work very well. However, just as I don't agree with having a death penalty today, I don't agree with the excisions of that era either. It's all barbaric IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 Thus it makes the story work very well. However, just as I don't agree with having a death penalty today, I don't agree with the excisions of that era either. It's all barbaric IMO. Very true. I think that in our time we are seeing an evolution of morality. The death penalty, a staple of human civilization for as long as it has existed, is slowly vanishing. Only a few backwards countries in the world that are dominated by patriarchal religions still execute people. It must have been exciting to have been an abolitionist during the Americal Civil War. Horrible in one sense, but exciting to see a people freed from bondage. Slavery, another staple of humanity since civilization began, has been eliminated, or at least is illegal throughout the world. We living today may see the same happen to the death penalty. It would be ironic that the very means of creating a religion would become an artifact of history. Some day people may look at the torturous penalty of crucifixion as barbaric. Well, actually, we already do. Perhaps people of the future will say, "If Jesus were to have come today, he would have had to commit suicide the old fashioned way." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 Most Bile Belt states still have the death penalty though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 Most Bile Belt states still have the death penalty though. Yep, and slavery persisted longest in the Bile Belt states too. Coincidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 4, 2010 Share Posted April 4, 2010 Nope. They base everything they do on the Bile. Except one thing, they screwed up slavery as my older son pointed out to me one day. If you injure a slave- such as cut off part of his foot like they did Kunta Kente in Roots, you're suppose to set him free. There are a lot of things like that, in which their so called Slavery based on the Bile did not follow the Bile. They still screw things up today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest I am Posted April 5, 2010 Author Share Posted April 5, 2010 I'm watching the videos to see if this makes more sense, but Christopher H. is not making much sense so far. Seems to me like a lot of double talk. I'm trying to make sense of what you are asking. I really am, but I really don't know what you are asking. I'd say lunatic, but I'm not sure that is the question you are really asking. The Crucifixion was immoral AND it was murder/suicide. IF Jesus lived, he committed suicide because he did not fight back. God or no god, the humans did it in the story- they killed Jesus, be they Roman or Jew, they all did it. Not sure if I understood or not, but that's my response. IMHO, it is all just a story; rewritten mythology, and not a bit of it true. Certainly not a story I wish my sons had to learn. It is really sick theology, not something beautiful at all, as Fundamngelicals would like one to believe. I think it would be excellent for children to learn to step up to their responsibilities and not to want or expect to profit from the death of an innocent man. It is a good moral lesson but unfortunately., Christianity have misinterpreted it's own moral document and made this into an immoral story without telling it's adherents. Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greatest I am Posted April 5, 2010 Author Share Posted April 5, 2010 Most Bile Belt states still have the death penalty though. Yes and since DNA, we know how many innocent people, roughly, were executed. If U S law was good law then they would not have the most incarcerations per capita of the world. Regards DL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mriana Posted April 6, 2010 Share Posted April 6, 2010 Most Bile Belt states still have the death penalty though. Yes and since DNA, we know how many innocent people, roughly, were executed. If U S law was good law then they would not have the most incarcerations per capita of the world. Regards DL I agree. It seems to me that, even though it is probably a small number, far too many innocent people get prosecuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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