Moral Superiority Or Not?

[Michael]

In Germany the child abuse in catholic institutions is a huge topic. Over 50 years child abuse and violence against children happened. The offender usually went not into jail. They either stayed in their position or got a similar job in another town. There has been child abuse in non xian institutes/schools also.

The excuse from xians and the church is, that it is a shame what happened, but that those mistakes have been committed by "human beings". It is not a xian problem it is a problem of the "flesh". One bishop even said that the child abuse in xians schools is the result of the "evil" sexual revolution during the 60´s and 70´s. This revolution ruined the good moral standards.

 

My point is: Xians often claim a moral superiority and they say, that the end of the world would come if a society would be an atheist society. The moral standard of the bible would protect the society to end in chaos. If they are doing the same evil deeds as non-xians, were is the moral superiority? They will talk about "isolated cases", but when they talk about a rampage due to violent music (Marylin Manson eg.) they will grumble about the devil.

 

Dear xians, is there a moral superiority? Can xians raise a moral standard for the entire mankind? Or are xians only "sinners" like everyone else, but forgiven sinners? Were is the moral difference?

 

P.s. I hope this post is more or less understandable...

[Shyone]

 

Dear xians, is there a moral superiority? Can xians raise a moral standard for the entire mankind? Or are xians only "sinners" like everyone else, but forgiven sinners? Were is the moral difference?

 

P.s. I hope this post is more or less understandable...

I'm far from Christian, but I'm sure they feel that their Priestly child abuse is a totally different thing from regular child abuse. It's Holy, sacred and apparently blessed by the Church. Ergo, Moral by definition.

 

Even if they don't take that approach, there's still, "There is a smaller percentage of child abusers that are priests that get caught than child abusers that are not."

 

Recent actions suggest that if a priest gets off on a technicality, it never happened. They don't have to count those cases (or remove the priests from pastoral contact with children).

 

The whole basis for the internal handling of priest abuse cases rests on the ability of Christ to rehabilitate the priests - again, and again, and again...

 

If that doesn't prove superior morals of the priests, then I don't know what does.

[Crazy Donna]

Bear with me, this is longwinded.

 

I'm from Australia, and I follow Australian Rules Football. Once, in the eighties, a player struck another player on the football ground, during a game, an umpire intervened, and the game was to go on. However, two police officers then walked onto the ground and arrested the player who had struck the other player, because his actions constituted assault. This was unprecedented.

 

The point I am clumsily trying to make is that it doesn't matter whether it is okay to strike another player during the game or not. What matters is that we ALL live in a COMMUNITY which has RULES, and for our own safety, the rules of the land must trump any rules made by a religion. Our laws are drafted by lawmakers and voted on by our democratic representatives. They are our laws. They satisfy the majority of us, because indirectly, we voted for these rules.

 

The priests who have assaulted children live in a community that has rules. Whether or not they are 'right with god' does not matter. If you commit a crime, or help to conceal a crime, you should be prosecuted by the rules of the land. It doesn't matter if the umpire says "play on". The Police, who are there to protect the vulnerable in society, are right in stepping in to intervene.

 

By moving priests who have offended to other parishes where they can harm other children, the catholic church has reneged on it's duty of care to the vulnerable in society. Anyone who is involved in this should be prosecuted publically. There should be no protection for the church from freedom of information.

 

This is why the separation of church and state is vitally important. It is to protect the most vulnerable in society. I'm not a christian, and I don't think that membership to a particular religious club (the Roman Catholic Church) should be a get out of jail free card on earth. They can answer to their god's rules later (unlikely, because I don't believe there's an afterlife) but for the time being, they should answer to society's rules. And society says that raping and sexually assaulting vulnerable children is evil. It's not the fault of the 'sexual revolution'. It's the fault of the individual, using their power and authority over vulnerable children to exploit them.

 

The only good that might come from this heinous chain of events may be the public discrediting of the roman catholic church. The more people who are horrified by the actions of the church, the better. It gives them less power, and less power hopefully means less opportunity to do this kind of thing in the future.

 

Don't you worry, it's a pretty big topic in Australia as well. It makes me pretty damn angry.

[Franko47]

This reminds me of a friend of mine who was speaking to his Roman Catholic grandmother and expressed to her how troubled he was about the amount of child molesting that was going on in the church.

 

To which she replied defensively: "But they're not ALL like that!"

 

 

Believe it or not, this has become the failsafe position of religionists these days when confronted by the ugliness that runs through their entire domain.

 

Any ethical, moral person of integrity should take the position (and nothing less) that every single last priest, pastor, lay person, or operative who has been convicted or discovered to have engaged in this sordid type of thing with children be ex-communicated, dismissed, and severely sanctioned AT THE VERY LEAST. Even important members of a church who aren't publicly known to have committed these types of crimes should be disbarred and dismissed, and no thought taken as to their "reputation".

 

Where there is great power there is always great contempt for anyone demanding that such a power prove it's integrity and worthiness. Unfortunately, I believe that too many Catholics world wide will stick their head in the sand, or even claim that their blessed institution is being picked on. Just watch.

[Vixentrox]

How can Christians claim moral superiority when they worship an evil being?

[Shyone]

Where there is great power there is always great contempt for anyone demanding that such a power prove it's integrity and worthiness. Unfortunately, I believe that too many Catholics world wide will stick their head in the sand, or even claim that their blessed institution is being picked on. Just watch.

It is almost ironic that we would have expected the Catholic Church to impose standards that are tougher than society's rules. Perhaps they think that they have, but seen from the outside and objectively, it sure doesn't appear that way.

 

And the "picked on" whining is already happening.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Atheists are morally superior. We invent our own morals and stick to them. Nuff said.

[Michael]

Morality changes over the decades. It probably becomes better or it just comes in waves with moral ups and downs, I do not know. Thousands of xian dominations have thousands of different moral standards. There is not THE xian moral, but I am sure, that every denomination is convinced to have the right view of morality. I am just sick of this "Atheists do not have moral values" or "A society without god is anarchy" drivel. I think we have more or less good moral values despite the bible morals.

[lunaticheathen]

Morally superior my left labia.

I went to a christian school, "nondenominational", but by default of numbers, Baptist. Not that it matters. Boys would grope girls in the halls, and "smack" them on the rear every day. It was tolerated by teachers, administrators, and the girls themselves. My mother witnessed it, and told the headmaster "if one of these boys touches one of my girls, they are trained in martial arts. The boys will be hurt. Be warned." One of the boys groped me. I beat the crap out of him. I got in trouble. The boy wasn't even talked to about his behavior.

By their morals, I "tempted" him, and besides, "boys will be boys" and I shouldn't have gotten violent, no matter how I was trained to deal with a perceived threat to my being. I threatened to sue if they suspended me. It was dropped.

That was the beginning of the end of my days in christianity. They do NOT have the moral upper hand. And there are far worse stories than mine, I know. But mine should be enough.

[agnosticator]

They do NOT have the moral upper hand. And there are far worse stories than mine, I know. But mine should be enough.

 

Yours is more than enough. I am fed up with the Christian mantra of moral superiority. This mind set taught in America is so obviously smug and hypocritical! The end result of believing Christian morality to be superior, is decadence. When a murderer is allowed to restart with a clean moral slate, and a non-believer's good actions are viewed as fit for hell, morality decays. Their absolute "right and wrong" is really capricious.

[Ouroboros]

That's why I say Christianity is morally corrupt.

 

They use their religion and book to argue they are moral, but in reality they promote reprehensible behaviors.

[Che]

What I found interesting this Easter here in Australia was that the Easter message was different to previous years. Usually the head honchos here tell their loyal followers how morally superior they are to the godless. This year however, the message was that if you do not have god you will live a sad and meaningless life. I guess that for once they tried not to be hypocritical.

[Shyone]

What I found interesting this Easter here in Australia was that the Easter message was different to previous years. Usually the head honchos here tell their loyal followers how morally superior they are to the godless. This year however, the message was that if you do not have god you will live a sad and meaningless life. I guess that for once they tried not to be hypocritical.

I was just thinking this morning that, if you want to see what the world is thinking about Christian or Islamic morality, google "Catholic clergy" and "Islamic cleric" and see what kinds of hits you get...

 

It's hard to argue that being a Christian (or Muslim) makes you morally superior when reality is shining a bright light on Christian (and Muslim) perversion and criminality in the very institutions that promote the religion(s).

[Crazy Donna]

Morally superior my left labia.

I went to a christian school, "nondenominational", but by default of numbers, Baptist. Not that it matters. Boys would grope girls in the halls, and "smack" them on the rear every day. It was tolerated by teachers, administrators, and the girls themselves. My mother witnessed it, and told the headmaster "if one of these boys touches one of my girls, they are trained in martial arts. The boys will be hurt. Be warned." One of the boys groped me. I beat the crap out of him. I got in trouble. The boy wasn't even talked to about his behavior.

By their morals, I "tempted" him, and besides, "boys will be boys" and I shouldn't have gotten violent, no matter how I was trained to deal with a perceived threat to my being. I threatened to sue if they suspended me. It was dropped.

That was the beginning of the end of my days in christianity. They do NOT have the moral upper hand. And there are far worse stories than mine, I know. But mine should be enough.

 

I went to a public Australian high school. Transferred halfway through the year from a non-denominational christian school to the public system. I spent half my first day being taunted by the year level bully, until I had had enough, and without a word, buried my fist under his diaphragm and emptied his lungs. Nobody saw it happen, but he was VERY careful what he said to me for the next four years. I found the public school didn't really give a toss what happened unless someone got physically injured. Not like the christian school, who pretty much let the boys get away with murder, especially if they were the popular 'christian' boys. It would take years before a bully's behaviour got them suspended or expelled. They would have months of detention and nothing serious would be done about their behaviour, no counselling, no further discipline. I should also add that this was a boarding school, so there was little chance of escape. If the boys wanted to taunt you, you had to stay locked up in your dorm to avoid it.

 

When I was at the public school, I was boarding away at the time with a 'nice christian family', the father of which used to enjoy watching me get dressed and undressed, and spending all the board money I gave him on new computers and gadgets so I spent the next two months starving. But don't worry, I was told. Apparently god would provide. Well, if having to eat out of bins was his providence, he is undoubtedly an arsehole. Or doesn't exist.

 

On the whole, my experience with christians and christian school environments reek of hypocrisy. On one hand they like to parade around like the archetype of moral decency, but in reality, they let jerks get away with murder because they feel that it is god's job to discipline them, not the teacher's. Nothing is ever done, because god will fix it. But god doesn't fix it, and these arseholes learn that they can get away with murder. It just repeats the same cycle over and over again.

[Guest Valk0010]

Moral superiority my ass

 

I tried telling my family about my views on there religion, and I got told by one uncle, when I said that you don't need to have God in yeah to take a child in like myself from a deadbeat mom. And that faith is not evidence and you need to be skeptical. mind you never said I was a atheist or not a christian. Was just trying to see if he had decent rebuttals to some common atheist arguements

 

He said something to the effect this before I was forced out of the house

 

*was yelled to the door

 

The Uncle: "Get the Fuck out"

 

The Uncle:"Did you bring a coat?"

 

Me: No

 

The Uncle: "Good"

 

The Uncle: "I never want to see you again."

 

Me:"And your supposed to be loving."

 

The Uncle: "Don't quote the bible to me you hypocrite. Get the fuck out of here. (Not sure if he said hypocrite but is was something like that, forgive me my memory is alittle fuzzy)

 

Me:.......

 

I didn't know this at the time, he called my grandma to pick me up.

 

He lead me to believe i would be walking the about 3-4 miles home at 3 Am (he got home around 1 and I was there babysitting his kids) And that I would never see him and by proxy his kids.

 

Not like I would affect his kids with some "rational atheist propaganda"

 

He after a little convincing apologized.

 

But how could someone have the holy spirit and do that to a person.

 

Even if I was in someway wrong. (I do think the way I acted wasn't great, was rather assholish)

 

But that does not deserve the treatment I got.

 

Fuck him and his God

 

But anyway

 

That Is my testimony to idea that Christians aren't morally superior. I would agrue however they are worst often.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Atheists are morally superior, as your story showed, we set our own moral standards and actually stick to them. (who would've thought that were possible? ). While they're judging others for the misdeeds they themselves do. Hypocrites, but only because they try to deny themselves of human nature and it bites back.

[BlueGiant]

Moral superiority and claims of it are almost guaranteed to be complete and utter bullshit. If you have to tell me that you are morally superior, you're doing it wrong.

[Guest I Love Dog]

What I found interesting this Easter here in Australia was that the Easter message was different to previous years. Usually the head honchos here tell their loyal followers how morally superior they are to the godless. This year however, the message was that if you do not have god you will live a sad and meaningless life. I guess that for once they tried not to be hypocritical.

The same head honchos were also running scared of "aggressive atheism"(as they called it), the head honchos can see all too clearly what's happening to their religious institutions. Christianity is crumbling at an ever increasing rate and I think that End Times has suddenly taken on a whole new meaning. It is End Times for Christianity. Great Britain is an excellent example. 69% of Britons have NEVER been to church. Only 9% go regularly and less than 40% believe that there is a god. If you look at British teenagers, less than 20% believe that there is a god. So does GB has lower moral standards than the US where 70% of people believe in a god? I think not! Look at crime rates.

 

The figures here in Australia are probably on a par with Great Britain. Around me I see closed down churches everywhere and our local village RCC gets about 6 people to the once per month service.

 

End Times? Bring it on!

[The-Captain]

Of course we are utterly amoral in comparison to Christians. And I am proud of that!

 

Morality to them is composed of rote acquiescence to the rules in a book, as stated by a priestly cast, as presumably handed down by a supreme being and is seemingly only accepted with a heavy dose of indoctrination.

 

Anecdote time, I have 5 year old cousin who took to "reading" the Bible (really winging it based on what she has heard, cutest damn thing too). When asked why she preferred making up the stories, she told me she didn't like the other ones, that the characters were mean and the stories silly, she even took to ripping out a few of her least favorites along with the corresponding pictures.

 

If there is something innately revolting to the sensibilities of a child in the Bible, I daresay it makes the whole mess look suspicious.

[lunaticheathen]

Anecdote time, I have 5 year old cousin who took to "reading" the Bible (really winging it based on what she has heard, cutest damn thing too). When asked why she preferred making up the stories, she told me she didn't like the other ones, that the characters were mean and the stories silly, she even took to ripping out a few of her least favorites along with the corresponding pictures.

 

If there is something innately revolting to the sensibilities of a child in the Bible, I daresay it makes the whole mess look suspicious.

 

Absolutely adorable! Tell her good job for me!